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Coding Bootcamps Already 1/8th the Size of CS Undergraduates
First time accepted submitter Valejo (689967) writes "According to a study released today by Course Report, programming bootcamps are expected to grow by 2.8x in 2014, meaning that bootcamps will graduate a student for every 8 CS undergraduates. The survey (PDF) also found that 57% of the schools teach in Ruby and that the average tuition is $9,900. The authors collected responses from 95% of US schools, including General Assembly, Dev Bootcamp, and Flatiron School."
sick of dumbass kids who don't understand pointers and other basic freshmen year level shit. even a community college grad is better than some ruby bro from a bootcamp.
The makes all the certs, non degree classes, boot camps and more add to something. Also can help so people can take classes and have some thing other then a theory loaded 2-4-6+ year piece of paper with big sides of fluff and filler.
1. Programming can't be learned in a few weeks. You need the freedom to play with it. To experiment. Boot Camp doesn't exactly inspire that.
I do believe you can be marketable within a year though.
2. This is about selling papers, certs. Just like colleges are most just about selling diplomas now.
3. What you learn there, you can learn online, for free.
Of course, you won't learn collaboration and all that (except on soureforge or someplace) but not really at a bootcamp either. That's what a job is for.
4. Pumping these students out suggests there will be soon a glut in the market. There is only so much software needed in the world. Other than games, there isn't the same demand for big, constant changes (maintenance and adhering to law changes notwithstanding) in all markets. Not that a bootcamp gives one the experience to touch old/big/production systems anyway.
5. This will end badly.
DeVry 2.0. Sad.
There is the ability to write scripts. And there is understanding of the field of computer science. The first is a miniscule subset of the second.
There are jobs where people only need the subset of skills needed to write scripts. There are jobs where scripting is the main task but a knowledge of theory is useful. And there are jobs where the 'science' aspect of computer science is critical.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Neither can code anything useful.
Programming can't be learned in a few weeks. You need the freedom to play with it. To experiment. Boot Camp doesn't exactly inspire that.
I agree with that statement, but how do bootcamps not inspire that?
I would think they would have that effect, they would get you over the hump of starting in any new language to the point where experimenting was fun and not a painful fight with the language/tooling.
Programming can't be learned in a few weeks. You need the freedom to play with it. To experiment. Boot Camp doesn't exactly inspire that.
Some of it probably is but it seems like at least a few of the courses would be actually valuable.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Computer Science is NOT a programming degree....
The last contract I had I walked into the "star" programmer using hidden text files to store data on client machines.
It took over two weeks to prove to him that SQL could store the data without errors.
People who are tossed into a learning environment for a month or two can't program their way out of a wet paper sack, let alone analyze and create tested solutions for a business.
But businesses will get what they pay for. If they want someone who can do a web page without a real back end (that's secure and actually usable) will end up paying the price.
It's good business for me. I can charge 4 years salary (of the bootcamp idiot) for six months worth of work to fix boot camp idiots work.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
How far have you advanced from the material taught by Donald Knuth in "The Art of Computer Programming?"
If we use Donald Knuth's material as a baseline, then most of us are clueless code monkeys.
Why not a med camp.
Where you can really get to know what you need in a few weeks.
Plus you the costs compared to medical school would be a lot cheaper.
Ok so maybe they cant teach you all about anatomy and neurons and everything, but
few doctors need that.
If we can teach them for instance heart surgery, or general medical things like a GP would see
that would be more than good enough.
This isn't teaching computer science. This is teaching web site business logic implementation. That's a useful skill, but somewhat specialized.
4. Pumping these students out suggests there will be soon a glut in the market. There is only so much software needed in the world.
Hmm... We'll see. Imagine what would happen if you hired secretaries who could code. I'm not saying CS graduates as secretaries. :)
But people who can write some horribly ugly and unmaintainable php/mysql applications.
There are so many work processes that could be automated. And the current manual implementation of these processes is so buggy, that a poor software implementation would likely be better..
Maybe it's okay to write software that solves the job here and now... And that you don't try to maintain
You can't build giant core products like this. But you can make many useful tools, very fast, very cheap, and enhance productivity of your organization.
I think there is a big market for shitty code that solves problems. Today many processes aren't digitized, because it's too expensive.
Why are there no civil engineering boot camps? I'm looking forward to driving over a bridge designed by someone who learned engineering on a boot camp. How could that possibly go wrong?
"XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
What is this? A bootcamp for ants? How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to code if they can't even fit inside the bootcamp? I don't wanna hear your excuses! The bootcamp has to be at least... eight times bigger than this!
Nothing posted to
Do coding Bootcamps teach calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, logic, etc? I don't think so! It's like comparing an auto mechanic school to mechanical engineering.
Some of you guys sound like a bunch of elitist pricks.
thats really what this is. 10 weeks for 10K? And that gets you exactly what? Some rudimentary Ruby? A typical (and reasonably good) CS program requires classes like these (with credit hours):
Fundamentals of Programming 2
Programming and Data Structures 3
Systems Software 4
Technical Presentation 1
Computer Organization and Architecture 3
Software Engineering 3
Discrete Structures 3
Programming Languages 3
Operating System Design 3
Introduction to the Theory of Computation 3
Design and Analysis of Algorithms 3
Senior Project 3
Electives in CS 12
Note that does not include any of the math req's or basic "well rounded" college stuff. Is that more than you need to know to do simple scripting? Yes. Does it mean you probably have a clue once you graduate? Yes. I'll admit to thinking that the cost of college these days is out of whack but the reasons for that are not relevant. The bottom line is the depth and experience you gain in completing a program like above can't be compared to 'bootcamps'.
We have been hiring for some 3 months now, and almost every candidate who comes in with a bootcamp background and little-to-no experience is resoundingly underwhelming. They have cursory knowledge of a FotM programming language (like Ruby), very limited knowledge of data structures and algorithms, and a tenuous grasp of core concepts of the field (we do mostly web development). Basically, if you come out of a bootcamp you're going to end up at a huge enterprise where quantity matters more than quality with regard to junior-level developers or get into a start-up working 80 hours a week.
Back in 1970s thereabouts computer programming was mainly considered trade school training. MIT resisted offering it as a major or even practical courses.
Why are we comparing coding bootcamps and CS undergraduate enrollment? There is very little overlap here. Apples and Oranges.
Seriously people, if you didn't get a CS or CompE degree take it from someone who has: you don't really learn to program in college. You don't. Most engineering disciplines take a CS101 intro to programming where you may learn the basics of Java, you might make some really basic programs where no one will teach you style, design, code reusability, architecture, anything. If you click run in netbeans and some numbers spit out in your output window you get a passing grade. Thats it. For the rest of your college career you are on your own. Most people graduating with CS or CompE degrees can't program professionally, but they have the tools to learn from others and teach themselves. From my experience in about 3 months with someone willing to be a sort of mentor/teacher they can stand on their own professionally.
So now that we understand that you don't learn "coding" in a CS or CompE curriculum, I am again asking: why are we comparing CS and boot camp enrollment? The headline insinuates that they are similar when they are very very different.
Now a message to practitioners (this may only apply in the embedded world, nomenclature varies drastically between embedded, desktop, web development):
Software Engineers: people coming out of bootcamps aren't going to take your job! You have to know this.
Programmers/Coders/Keyboard-Fu artists: well these people are going to compete with you for your job but I'm guessing you don't have a CS or CompE degree, and if you do explain to your boss that you can do software engineering and you're not just a human input machine turning someone's designs into code. If you are you never had a lot of job security anyways. (I personally don't believe in the "Engineer makes the architecture, coder implements the design" pattern, I and many much smarter and more experienced people insist that the designer/architect must code).
There is a lot of negativity around here directed towards the boot camps. I was sceptical too at first, but the more I thought about it the more I feel like these boot camps are very similar to community colleges. Unfortunately there are companies who insist that software engineers should make UML diagrams all day and then hand everything off to some poor sap that has to decipher incoherent nonsense and make a functioning piece of software. Thats where these bootcamp people fit in.
There are small businesses that need someone to write a basic shopping cart module for their website. Perfect for a boot camp graduate.
There are professionals and business owners who really want to learn how to do basic coding but don't know how to teach themselves, they are perfect candidates for boot camps.
If you think you are going to have a 35 year career with just a boot camp certificate alone you may want to rethink that strategy. Otherwise these things aren't bad.
I'm afraid indeed, yes. Really I can't understand how anyone can program in most languages and not understand pointers.
Even in garbage collected languages, it comes up with relative frequency. Not just from interfacing with something outside XYZ language either. There are fundamental issues you'll run into even in JavaScript if you don't "get" pointers. I'd go as far as to argue there are few things that apply to more types of programming jobs than understanding how memory works, memory layouts, and so on. On some architectures you pretty much can't program effectively without knowing that regardless of language (Console/Game Dev comes to mind, even with something like C#).
I am astounded that people have $9.9k to blow on one of these worthless courses. Where do they get the money? After Richie Rich signs up for this course, who is left that can afford it?
You could blow $1500 on a MacBookPro, buy a $50 O'Reilly book, download a Ruby interpreter, and still have money left over.
(Hey, wait, Ruby? What happened to Python?)
Buy yourself some simple kit like the Raspberry Pi. Get some books, play around, and build competence until you feel worthy of contributing to some Open Source projects. We literally hired a guy based on his BSD contribs one time. That's all I remember about the hiring decision. Of course he turned out to be a good hire. I have no idea where he went to school.
If somebody paid $9900 for that crap, I'd question their judgement.
Been self learning for years and could save an aspiring newbie tons of time suggesting appropriate books and subject sequence. At the end of the day, nobody will come out ready for the job market from a boot camp, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good boot camp could shave a significant multiple of its time off the process.
Rolfwind, I'm curious how many programming bootcamps you have visited and how many student code reviews you've done? We'd invite you to come to any of our Dev Bootcamp locations to see our students final projects. Not only do they know how to code, but they know how to TDD, pair, present and work on a team like no other. Nobody is done learning how to code after our 18 week program, but they have a strong enough foundation and enough heart to be valuable and contribute to develop teams on day 1. Hope you take us up on the offer :)