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Computer Game Reveals 'Space-Time' Neurons In the Eye

sciencehabit (1205606) writes news that the EyeWire project from MIT has yielded some exciting results. "You open the overstuffed kitchen cabinet and a drinking glass tumbles out. With a ninjalike reflex, you snatch it before it shatters on the floor, as if the movement of the object were being tracked before the information even reached your brain. According to one idea of how the circuitry of the eye processes visual data, that is literally what happens. Now, a deep anatomical study of a mouse retina — carried out by 120,000 members of the public — is bringing scientists a step closer to confirming the hypothesis." The paper (paywalled), and a gallery of screenshots of the game.

22 of 105 comments (clear)

  1. Is this all that surprising? by wbr1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The retina and optic nerve are very complex and dense. The almost certainly perform some level of preprocessing, and as such are really just an extension of the brain. However to say that you react before -any- info reaches the brain smacks of a physical impossibility as the brain has to receive some sort of data to trigger motor action. Unless the motor nerves are connected directly to the eyeballs.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:Is this all that surprising? by iamacat · · Score: 2

      I don't find the idea that there is some direct connection between eyes and spinal cord that far fetched. What better way to avoid hazardous fast flying objects?

    2. Re:Is this all that surprising? by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Doesn't seem that odd to me. You react to touching something hot before any signal reach the brain. That's almost the definition of a reflex vs reaction.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Is this all that surprising? by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 3, Informative

      > However to say that you react before -any- info reaches the brain smacks of a physical impossibility

      Incorrect. You have outdated information.

      There have been studies shown that the heart is able to react pre-stimulus; THEN the brain reacts. The heart contains 40,000+ neurons is part of the reason.

      the amygdala makes instantaneous decisions about the threat level of incoming sensory information, and due to its extensive connections to the hypothalamus and other autonomic nervous system centers, is able to "hijack" the neural pathways activating the autonomic nervous system and emotional response before the higher brain centers receive the sensory information.

      (Emphasis added)

      Our left brain is apparently operating at 15kb / second while our right brain is apparently operating at 20million kb / second. We don't know how fast our heart brain is operating at but we do know that the electromagnetic field around our heart is 4000 times greater than the field of our brain.

      * http://www.heartmath.org/resea...
      * http://www.heartmath.org/free-...
      * http://www.livingtransformatio...

    4. Re:Is this all that surprising? by NitWit005 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even just reading from that quote, the information did actually reach the brain first. It just didn't reach what the authors define as the "higher brain centers". You're not contradiction him. I'm not sure how the electromagnetic field strength of the heart was supposed to be relevant either.

    5. Re:Is this all that surprising? by Aeonym · · Score: 2

      My neurobiology degree is about 20 years outdated, but I'm still confident in declaring you 100% wrong. It is well established that many reflexes--which are 'motor action'--occur without any intervention or even awareness of the central cortex. The doctor hitting your knee to get an involuntary kick is one example. Most of the processing involved in walking, including recovering from imbalance, actually happens below the spinal cord.

    6. Re:Is this all that surprising? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      Doesn't seem that odd to me. You react to touching something hot before any signal reach the brain. That's almost the definition of a reflex vs reaction.

      That's because touching something hot triggers an action potential in the skin and only needs to travel to the spinal column and back to elicit the motion. The pain receptors fire more slowly and have to travel to the brain. That is different from neurons firing in the eye and the signal making it to the hand. It (hot reflex) is also much less complex. It only needs to jerk the hand back. Catching the falling glass requires many muscles working in concert.

    7. Re:Is this all that surprising? by coolsnowmen · · Score: 2

      Electric field strength of the heart has nothing to do with it's data carrying capacity and everything to do with the large muscle that it is.

  2. Eyes are Brains by pubwvj · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The eyes are actually part of the brain and have computational and comparative circuits built into them. This has been known for many decades.

    1. Re:Eyes are Brains by rk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Truth. One of my favorites is motion detection. It is carried out in the retina, and curiously, the neurons that compute motion are only wired to rods, not to cones. You can do some pretty freaky things to your vision armed with this knowledge. Example: write a simple program to bounce a green dot on a red field smoothly. It looks like motion. Get two polarized lenses, one green, one red, and put them together. You can then turn the lenses to a point where the contrast of the green and red are similar and you quit perceiving the motion of the dot and you only perceive discrete jumps of it. It's a very jarring experience.

  3. Teaser? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

    The "space-time" intro at first made me think they discovered quantum sensors in the eyes that detect action slightly before it happens using parallel universes or the like. But they are just talking about motion-sensing pre-processing by the retina itself.

    Disappointment. I wanted the ability to walk into my boss's office and say, "Before you get up to fire me, I quit!"

  4. Zoned? by mfh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I had a friend and he was one of those friends who would always get me into trouble when I was a kid. He was four years older than me... and this was in grade 9 for me. He was the kind of dude that would just throw something at you and yell your name last second. It got so that I had developed Jedi reflexes around this kid. Something told me exactly what to expect. One day the bastard throws a big knotted wooden log towards my head, and calls it out last second as it's about to hit my face.

    Without any hesitation I caught it!! About 45-55lbs, which isn't that much -- but it's a hell of a lot to catch without warning.

    My point is that there is probably some kind of zone of effect to this type of thing where in a kitchen for example you could expect that a plate or glass might get knocked off the counter so you would be queued up to catch something whenever you enter the kitchen.

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    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Zoned? by rmdingler · · Score: 2
      We call it the clumsy/adroit syndrome.

      Because I have always dropped and spilled things, my brain is fine tuned to the slightest evidence of an impending gravitational incident...

      thus I catch my own drops better than average.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re:Zoned? by sexconker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had a friend and he was one of those friends who would always get me into trouble when I was a kid. He was four years older than me... and this was in grade 9 for me. He was the kind of dude that would just throw something at you and yell your name last second. It got so that I had developed Jedi reflexes around this kid. Something told me exactly what to expect. One day the bastard throws a big knotted wooden log towards my head, and calls it out last second as it's about to hit my face.

      Without any hesitation I caught it!! About 45-55lbs, which isn't that much -- but it's a hell of a lot to catch without warning.

      My point is that there is probably some kind of zone of effect to this type of thing where in a kitchen for example you could expect that a plate or glass might get knocked off the counter so you would be queued up to catch something whenever you enter the kitchen.

      You should have gone with 15-20 pounds. Someone might have believed it then. Your scrawny freshman ass wasn't catching, deflecting, or parrying 50 pounds of anything near your head, let alone a log chucked at you by someone who was a legal adult to your legal minor. At a distance far enough for you to not see or hear the initial throw, the mass would have to be traveling moderately fast in order to be anywhere near your head before hitting the ground. Moderately fast squared, times your ridiculous claim of 50 pounds, equals you not standing a fucking chance, quick or not.

      I don't know what prompted this lame exaggerated story about an older boy molesting you with 50 pounds of hard wood, but there are better uses for a low digit UID.

    3. Re:Zoned? by RalfM · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
      -Bertrand Russel
    4. Re:Zoned? by artor3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He might just suck at estimating weight. I used to play a game at work where we would have people guess how much a package weighed before putting it on a scale, and some people are really, jaw-droppingly bad at that sort of thing. It's sort of interesting how people can usually estimate lengths, and volumes, and temperatures quite well, but on weight they'll be off by a factor of five or more.

    5. Re:Zoned? by Agent0013 · · Score: 2

      I have witnessed my step-dad do an amazing catch. He knocked filled glass off the table with the back of his hand. While the glass was falling, mouth faced downward, he moved quick enough to catch the glass. Then, rather than just catch the glass, he continued the motion to scoop up the falling liquid. He got all of it but two small drops that hit the floor. He was a black-belt tae kwon do instructor at the time, so his reflexes were probably pretty good from training but it was still really impressive to see.

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      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  5. Midichlorians by rmdingler · · Score: 2

    are real.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  6. Re:Worst Video Ever by webmistressrachel · · Score: 2

    As much as it's a rubbish summary and so forth, the game itself (eyewire.org) is actually quite compelling, at least on a par with those silly bubble saga things - and it gets human "mice" to map neurons for us science types!

    Please be more positive, the more we know about such things, the sooner I'll have my network socket... ;-)

    --
    This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
  7. Re:Blows my mind by Ferrofluid · · Score: 2

    It's no stranger than building a computer out of sand and minerals.

  8. Duck! by Flammon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The first time I experienced this affect was a few year ago while I was walking in some local trails. All of a sudden my body ducked and only after did I realise that I was about to hit a low hanging tree branch. Our mind is living in the past.

  9. Re:lazers by dmbasso · · Score: 2

    Excuse me for hijacking the first post, but there are so many people writing stupid things below, that I have to point this out: https://www.coursera.org/cours...
    Learn about neurology, it is very interesting. Preferentially, learn it before writing something about it as if you know it.

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    `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com