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Is Carbon Fiber Going Mainstream?

cartechboy (2660665) writes "To date, carbon fiber has been expensive and presents different production challenges than traditional steel and aluminum. But now it seems as if the advanced material is about to become truly mainstream--BMW has announced it plans to triple carbon fiber reinforced plastic output at its Moses Lake facility in Washington state. Currently, the SGL Group plant, a joint venture partner of BMW Group, has the production capacity for about 3,000 tons of carbon fiber per annum. Two productions lines are currently going with the output dedicated to BMW's i3 and i8 plug-in vehicles. SGL is already working on a third and fourth production line which would double production to 6,000 tons per year, but a fifth and sixth are on the way, set to triple capacity to 9,000 tons every year. This extra output won't be reserved exclusively for BMW's i range. Several future BMW models will make use of the lightweight material. Now the only question is how long before carbon fiber vehicle construction becomes as common as aluminum?"

22 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. Yes by Richy_T · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes

    1. Re:Yes by catchblue22 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Once I learned about carbon fiber thermoplastics, I realized that carbon fiber would be amenable to mass production. The idea is that you lay down the fibers using robotic technology. Then you encase the fiber in a plastic resin that becomes soft at high temperatures. Now you have made a flat carbon fiber sheet similar to sheet steel. Finally you use a hot press that presses the sheet into nearly any shape desired...ie. car parts. This is similar to how we form steel into car body parts. This processes is highly suitable for mass production. So yes, carbon fiber is becoming mainstream.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    2. Re:Yes by Richy_T · · Score: 2

      Carbon fiber as used is a composite material. The carbon fiber itself provides strength but needs to be contained in a matrix. Usually this is a resin but in this case would be a plastic.

  2. Recycling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Carbon fiber is the least recyclable material ever.

    No doubt they will claim they are recycling it in some unholy process, but it would be far more environmentally friendly to produce the raw stock.

    Now steel and aluminum are highly recyclable. And cleanly too.

    1. Re:Recycling by Virtucon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No cars. Just walk, bike or use public transportation. That's what all the policy makers want you to do anyway.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    2. Re:Recycling by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      So you have a choice - less energy use (and hence less food consumption) via lighter bikes, or easily recyclable bikes. Where is your particular environmental itch?

    3. Re:Recycling by Virtucon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where is your particular environmental itch?

      Crotch Rot.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    4. Re:Recycling by mlts · · Score: 4, Informative

      We went through this exact thing with bicycle frames about 10 years ago. CF is lighter and more rigid than aluminum, but if it gets a crack or gouge in it, the frame can't be mended... it has to be tossed, and the only real way to "recycle" CF is to toss it into a thermal depolymerization machine and "boil" the epoxy and CF (using lots of water and heat) back to crude oil.

      CF has its place, but on a vehicle where weight is less a limiting issue than on bicycles, it might be best off to stick with recyclable stuff like aluminum because of the volume of vehicles made. Aluminum can be recycled fairly easily... CF can't be used for much once it hits the scrapyard.

    5. Re:Recycling by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Carbon fiber is the least recyclable material ever.

      The world is not running out of carbon. The amount of energy saved by building lighter vehicles dwarfs the amount saved through recycling.

    6. Re:Recycling by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you knocked on an aluminum frame with your fingernail enough times in the same spot, it would eventually fail.

      Your manicures must be *really*difficult and expensive.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    7. Re:Recycling by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      "As mankind built more things out of unrecyclable carbon fiber, bigger and bigger landfills were needed to contain it, thus solving the problem once and for all!"

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:Recycling by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      I think using public transportation is an excellent idea for other people to do.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    9. Re:Recycling by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      Yes, but...

    10. Re:Recycling by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      ONCE AND FOR ALL!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    11. Re:Recycling by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      There's nothing hypothetical about it. CF does dissipate energy away from the driver of an F1 race car upon impact.

      "At the heart of the modern Formula One car is the 'monocoque' (French for ‘single shell’), or 'tub'. It incorporates the driver's survival cell and cockpit, and also forms the principal component of the car's chassis, with engine and front suspension mounted directly to it. Its roles as structural component and safety device both require it to be as strong as possible. Like the rest of the car, most of the monocoque is constructed from carbon fibre - up to 60 layers of it in places - with high-density woven laminate panels covering a strong, light honeycomb structure inside.

      Did you know that during his high-speed crash at the Canadian Grand Prix in 2007, Robert Kubica was subjected to more than 28 times the acceleration of gravity? This meant that his body effectively weighed two tons instead of 73 kilograms. Millions of spectators expected the worst, but thanks to the strict safety precautions in Formula One racing Kubica suffered only minor bruises." -Formula1.com

      Here is a video of the 2007 crash.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  3. Carbon Fiber? by rotorbudd · · Score: 2

    You mean Italian chrome?

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
  4. So BMW defines what counts as "mainstream" by Lumpio- · · Score: 2

    You learn something new every day!

  5. My cane by jockm · · Score: 2

    My cane is made of carbon fiber, so I would say carbon fiber is already "mainstream". What they are talking about is it becoming a commodity. Not just mainstream, but ubiquitous.

    --

    What do you know I wrote a novel
  6. CF in Cars by bmajik · · Score: 5, Informative

    BMW has already been putting CF into weight-sensitive areas of the car, like the roof panels on certain models. Up high is one of the worst places to carry weight from a vehicle dynamics perspective; it makes nearly every aspect of vehicle handling worse.

    One practical difficulty of CF for general automotive use is that it's not really repairable.

    Of course, modern autobody repair is often about replacing affected panels with pristine replacements (either new or from junk yard cars), as opposed to trying to repair an existing panel. So, in that sense, CF might be a fine choice, as the lack of reparability is in practice a non-issue.

    BMW is already gluing cars together -- for almost 10 years they have been building the front clip on certain models out of aluminum, and in effect gluing it to the remainder of the unibody, which is conventional steel.

    Also, BMW has been designing recyclability into its cars also for at least 15 years. I seem to recall that the E46 3 series was something like 90% recoverable.

    I don't expect they would turn away from their recyclability commitment, so they must have a plausible plan for how they would like to apply it to CF parts.

    --
    My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
  7. Re:Calling Betteridge's Law on this one by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

    It might not be Ford's 15.6 million cars but 1.86 million car sales isn't exactly niche either. Perhaps your "for the 1%" mindset is a bit inaccurate. As to the comparison, piecing together information... 20% of world steel output goes to automobile manufacturing. World crude steel output for 2012 was 1548 Mt so I suppose that means about 309.6 megatons goes to cars. So relatively speaking 9000 tons isn't much of a dent, but it does sound like a significant step towards building manufacturer confidence in the material as well as gaining some economies of scale.

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  8. Re:How? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

    This is injection molded fiber reinforced plastic, not sheets of fiber laid down with crossing fibers then glued together and autoclaved or vacuum bagged.

    Sets up in more or less the same time as the plastic, but the fibers make the process more abrasive. Not nearly as strong as hand laid CF.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  9. Re:Half the vehicle weight = twice the range by Moof123 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, half the weight does not mean half the fuel usage. Windage losses do not scale with weight, as passenger size does not scale with vehicle weight. Highway driving in particular is dominated by windage losses (after engine Carnot efficiencies of course). A half weight vehicle will see only modest highway MPG improvements not double, and will not be able to scale the engine size down by fully half either due to the horsepower requirements for reasonable highway performance not scaling down by half. So sadly, a half weight frame and body does not let you continue to scale the rest of the weighty vehicle down by half, which does not result in a doubling of MPG or range.