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Russia Bans US Use of Its Rocket Engines For Military Launches

schwit1 sends word that Russia will now ban U.S. military satellite launches using Russian-made rockets. According to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, this is retaliation for U.S. sanctions on high-tech items, put in place because of the dispute in the Ukraine. Rogozin also threatened to block U.S. plans to keep using the International Space Station beyond its 2020 mission end date. That's not all: 'Rogozin also said Russia will suspend the operation of GPS satellite navigation system sites in Russia from June and seek talks with Washington on opening similar sites in the United States for Russia's own system, Glonass. He threatened the permanent closure of the GPS sites in Russia if that is not agreed by September.'

19 of 522 comments (clear)

  1. Duck and cover by DougOtto · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ok kids, everyone under your desk.

    --
    Solving Unix problems since 1989...
    1. Re:Duck and cover by Stele · · Score: 5, Funny

      Shouldn't we lie down, put a paper bag over our head or something?

    2. Re:Duck and cover by TWX · · Score: 5, Informative

      I used to make fun of duck-and-cover too. Then I looked at what it's actually designed to accomplish.

      You don't duck-and-cover to survive being within the atomic fireball, that would be stupid. You duck and cover because you may be close enough to the blast that debris may hit you. Obviously if the roof caves in then you're probably dead, but if the ceiling breaks free from the structural roof or the structural floor above you, having a physical barrier between you and the ceiling grid, or the light fixtures, or the sheetrock panels, or other building infrastructure may well save your life or reduce the injury that you'd sustain. Same logic holds true for blown-in glass from windows, blown-in nonstructural building facades, and anything else thrown by a blast. Look at the videos from that asteroid strike in Russia, where thousands of people were hurt by flying debris. Same principle would have applied. Also holds true for earthquake mitigation, put something solid and relatively unyielding between you and the loose stuff that will rain down on you.

      If you try to explain to the average person that there's a difference between ducking-and-covering right at ground-zero for a nuclear blast and five miles out, you're going to get no practical improvement in what people do. Just tell everyone to do it, and those that happen to be far enough to not be incinerated or irradiated might survive.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Duck and cover by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think we'd better learn the words to Waltzing Matilda and maybe keep the cyanide pills handy.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    4. Re:Duck and cover by Sir+Realist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I grew up in the middle of Silicon Valley - a major techno-industrial center wedged between a fairly major military base and two major population centers. As part of my Boy Scouts Disaster Preparedness merit badge, we had to explain our plan in case of a nuclear war being declared. I told them "kick back on the roof in a lounge chair and watch the mushroom clouds go up."

      There was a brief pause, and the instructor said "Fair enough."

    5. Re:Duck and cover by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Funny

      What they told us to do in the event of a nearby nuclear strike was to hold our AK in front of us in outstretched arms.

      When asked what that was supposed to accomplish, our "initial military training" (yes, it's a real thing that they teach in schools) teacher told us that it is so that melting steel won't drip on the government-issued boots, increasing the chances that they might serve another recruit in defense of the Motherland.

  2. SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This might be one of the best things to happen for SpaceX.

  3. Space programs as a crowbar? by AaronLS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wasn't it nice when at least space programs still worked together and were kind of outside the scope of international quarrels. Astronauts working together, at least to me, were a symbol of how we were still all civilized people who had a lot of common interests and could work together peacefully.

    1. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      http://www.spacenews.com/artic...

      Seems NASA started this over the month ago.

      If there is anything to know about Russians, is they do not like getting bullied. And before you say "OMG, Russian are bulling Ukraine!", this is not the first time east Ukraine and majority were told to take a hike by the so-called "westerners".

      Quick note: East Ukraine was Russia. West Ukraine was Poland. Borders were redrawn and now you have populations with different leanings. Imagine that!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

    2. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by Wookact · · Score: 5, Informative
      Your quick note left out quite a bit of information that is relevant. Mainly that the russian speaking ukranians were imported to Ukraine, and the originally ethnic groups were cleared out.

      Sure the majority of the people in eastern Ukraine might want to belong to Russia, but those people have only lived there since the 40s through the 70s for the most part. In which case I propose they just move back to Russia, and leave Ukraine to the ethnic groups that were cleared out.

      See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      See Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      In fact the Russians that moved in were hell bent on stamping out Ukranian cultrue.

      The first wave of purges between 1929 and 1934 targeted the revolutionary generation of the party that in Ukraine included many supporters of Ukrainization. Soviet authorities specifically targeted the commissar of education in Ukraine, Mykola Skrypnyk, for promoting Ukrainian language reforms that were seen as dangerous and counterrevolutionary; Skrypnyk committed suicide in 1933. The next 1936–1938 wave of political purges eliminated much of the new political generation that replaced those who perished in the first wave. Being accused of using the "Skrypnyk alphabet" – in other words, using Ukrainian Cyrillic letters instead of Russian ones – could lead to arrest or death

    3. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tell that to Iraq which was a war over oil. Indeed, America only got involved in Libya because they have oil.

    4. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by erikkemperman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Market economics are the alternative to fighting for resources. Instead of grabbing what you want by force, you just buy it. The market based world order of the Pax Americana is far more peaceful than the age of imperialism and mercantilism that preceded it.

      What is this peace you speak of? Imperialism is far from over, the current situation is hardly different from the Spanish, British, or even the Ronan empires in any interesting way. It always amounts to wielding an overwhelming asymmetry in military might to maintain a steady flow of wealth from the rest if the world to the homeland.

      The amazing thing is that so few there seem to have any idea what kind of dick they are being as a nation, or to what extent their comfort (often even a luxury that ought to be embarrassing, frankly) is underwritten by misery and poverty in lesser places.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    5. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by professionalfurryele · · Score: 5, Informative

      You do realise that the Pax Americana is typically held to have started in 1945 right, with a few (but not many) historians arguing for 1918. And it isn't a statement about freedom but about the comparative absence of violence.

    6. Re:Space programs as a crowbar? by erikkemperman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I was in disagreement with your assertion that Pax Americana was somehow not a kind of empire in how it operates in the world the last couple decades, I didn't mention all out war.

      But you're not wrong in that, since the end if the Cold War, there have been fewer "nation-vs-nation" wars, as you put it (which were not really that, even during the Cold War, but mostly proxy wars between both superpowers). "Standing armies" does not mean what it used to, before there was a single superpower.

      But notice that military spending has not diminished as one might have expected, rather it has risen since the early 90s. It is as much as the rest of the planet combined, to the extent that their budgets are accountable at all, that is. Find a world map of US military installations. The reason that actual, explicit coercion is rare is simply that lesser nations can't afford to let it come that far. That makes the coercion more efficient, yes, but not less "empire" like.

      That doesn't make the present situation peaceful in any meaningful way though, for great numbers of people. That there were no formal war declarations and massive infantry battles doesn't actually make the history of, say, Haiti, Colombia, Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, all that much less bloody. That is what imperial enforcement looks like, not Waterloo.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
  4. Re:suspend GPS? by bigpat · · Score: 5, Informative

    I believe they are talking about ground stations that are physically located in Russia. My understanding is that since they are fixed points on the earth that they can be used to calibrate the GPS signals/clocks to be more accurate when they are passing over that area of the world.

  5. Comparative advantage is BS by areusche · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is exactly why comparative advantage is complete BS. When you let another foreign entity control your means of whatever it may be (rocketd, iPhones, car parts, tools, etc etc) you lose that ability to utilize it when the political poo hits the fan.

    Watch the space shuttle program make a dramatic re-appearance. This is a massive national security issue that I bet no one brought up when they decided, "Gee, lets go and outsource our rockets and launches to a foreign power we've had cold relations with since the early 20th century."

    This is what happens when people look solely at the bottom line. It gets a little hard to project your power into a region when that same region makes most of your equipment (I'm looking at you China!).

  6. Re:suspend GPS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    A GNSS primer:

    GPS will still function fine. It's a cold war technology: it was designed with the understanding that Russia would try to thwart it, not maintain it. There is zero danger that it will "degrade and fail" without Russian support. Ground stations are useful because they are known positions which should be very constant moment-to-moment (though there can be inches of movement in the long term). That makes it good for calibrating out error. The sort of errors it's good for calibrating out are pretty much only notable at the cm level, if you are actually in Russia. Russians with GPS systems won't notice.

    GLONASS is the Russian program. It pretty much JUST covers Russia. It covers it well, making it good enough for civilian use. But then again, so is GPS, even without Russian ground stations. The notion of adding GLONASS ground sites in the U.S. is kind of meaningless. They could put up satellites that actually provide good coverage of the U.S., but I can't imagine any real tactical or economic advantage. It's saber-rattling aimed at people who don't know what they're talking about.

    Meanwhile GPS is long in the tooth. Planned errors are inserted into the signal to degrade performance if you don't have the "key" to correct for them... but any government who cared to have military-grade GPS has it, either through the black market in Israel, or basic reverse engineering and intelligence. As such, the U.S. actually offered the proverbial keys to it's allies (read: everyone, especially Europe), but Europeans decided that they could not stand to ride the U.S.'s coat tails. They want an independent, European-controlled GNSS system. (This is not imprudent, as the current NSA- and Ukraine-related tensions show.) This is when they started pouring more money into Galileo. This was originally envisaged as a 50/50 joint public/private venture, but no companies actually stepped up to take part in the expensive R&D effort of re-building something that already exists. It is now a (very underfunded and behind schedule) 80% public venture.

    Meanwhile, governments that may become unfriendly in the future -- like China, which always speaks of "when we invade Taiwan", never "IF we invade Taiwan" -- can't trust anything that the U.S. might shut off. Hence, they are building out their own system, BeiDou. The main focus of their "limited" version of the system was obviously South China Sea, but they supposedly plan a global build-out.

  7. Re:We will just reverse engineer them.... by benjfowler · · Score: 5, Informative

    Last thing I read about this, the secret sauce in these engines, is the metallurgy -- the Russians have developed alloys that allow them to run them oxidiser-rich without everything getting destroyed by the extremely corrosive preburner exhaust. You can build as many engines as you want, if you don't have the recipe and process, you're literally going to go nowhere.

  8. Re:suspend GPS? by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 5, Informative

    As one of about 3 operators who turned it off in early 1990s, your information is a bit dated. The signal isn't degraded, but the mathmatical solution WAS. However, after the Russians shot down a civilian airliner (aren't Russians AWESOME!) President Reagan made the decision to turn it off, and it was implmented a few years later. We sent the "SA/AS = 0" (or turned it off) and "Bias=0" (or turned any bias amount to zero) commands around 1993. SA is Selective Availability. AS is Anti-Spoofing. Spoofing is the process where someone pretends to be GPS to throw your solution off, or they might jam to just outright deny usage. Your keys comment might also confuse as we (the US) can also encrypt GPS signals. Meaning AS turns on keys, SA turns on bias. They are mutually exclusive, as AS denies usage (aka, encryption) and SA denies precision (aka, dilution of precision).