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The Physics of Hot Pockets

StartsWithABang (3485481) writes "You've all had the experience: you're all excited to microwave your favorite snack. So you pull it out of the freezer, you throw it in, and you let it rip. A minute or two later, you pull it out, and there it is: boiling on the outside, frozen in the middle. Finally, a physicist answers the eternal question: why do microwaved foods remain frozen on the inside when they reach scalding temperatures on the outskirts? Starts With A Bang explains the whole phenomenon. Bonus for the crisping sleeve explanation!"

20 of 222 comments (clear)

  1. Microwave trays by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 5, Informative

    Also those with rotating microwave trays (because microwaves tend to heat unevenly) ought to be aware that anything at the center of the tray will not get the benefit of rotation and heat at the same rate the entire time. To roll around in a (relatively) even distribution, none of your food should sit in the center of the tray.

    1. Re:Microwave trays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Of course there are microwaves made with competent stirrers and well-placed feeds. Panasonic makes microwave ovens that feature both (the feed is at the bottom of the cavity), so no rotation is necessary. They also use variable fast pulse width modulation to drive the magnetron, resulting in a smooth output power, thus avoiding another common contribution made by on-off duty cycles to burnt skin / frozen middle problems especially at lower power settings. (Triac controlled magnetrons can only go on and off; most PWM microwave ovens not driven by an inverter supply do a cycle on the order of 30 seconds.) There is work on continuous phase shifting, which will avoid heating the same islands in food even in pessimal cases (like poorly conducting food put in the centre of a rotating tray). Finally, there is still substantial research going into probes inserted into food so as to provide feedback to the driver logic (dynamically or for capture into programs which take food type mass as variables) and whether non-invasive probes can provide useful dynamic feedback every time the oven is in use.

      The main problem is that the cheapest microwave ovens are just good enough to follow recipes that call for some number of seconds on the high setting while being unreliable at other settings, and the food industry targets its instructions accordingly. This is a global problem, not unique to the USA. However, as large-cavity combination microwave/grill/convection ovens become more popular in densely populated areas (why waste space having two or three ovens? why not coat your microwave with pyrolytic surfaces that you clean by simply baking or roasting something? why not cook with microwaves and brown with the grill simultaneously?) this is likely to change faster than patents expire, especially as several key manufacturers (Panasonic, GE) will not be cannibalizing conventional oven products. The critical path and most visible extra cost to the first time buyer is mainly in the design of trays and dishes which work well under arbitrary conditions in a combo oven, and avoiding damage when someone uses the wrong tray, dish or tool for a given programme.

    2. Re:Microwave trays by dissy · · Score: 2

      Finally, there is still substantial research going into probes inserted into food so as to provide feedback to the driver logic (dynamically or for capture into programs which take food type mass as variables) and whether non-invasive probes can provide useful dynamic feedback every time the oven is in use.

      I myself just recently discovered the existence of non-invasive probing (a feature included in a microwave just purchased by a friend last month), and while very impressed with the concept, was less so with the outcome.

      I'm not sure if there are different non-invasive methods on the market, but this particular model somehow ended up using the water vapor released during microwaving to obtain its feedback.
      In cases where it couldn't read anything (seemingly for foods that don't release much vapor) it wouldn't kick in, but when it did the foods still seemed to be more crisped on the outside while colder on the inside.

      Certainly an improvement over cheap-o walmart microwaves on sale these days, but I guess I'm spoiled.

      My microwave is a hand-me-down from my parents, who purchased it within the first year I was born.
      It is a 35 year old GE brand, sporting a VFD, a "new solid state!" tag line on the front panel, and inside is a 1/4th inch headphone jack for use with a metal probe.
      I've only ever used the probe once for cooking a turkey, more as an experiment as I usually use the oven for that and prefer including stuffing - but was amazed how even from outside-in the meat ended up cooked.

      I assumed such research already took place long ago in-so-far as wired probes were concerned, but your comment makes me wonder if a newer model microwave still using a wired probe would have substantial improvements...
      I realize the reliability will be next to crap, but such is most all products sold these days sadly :/

      I'm not exactly "seriously shopping" for a new microwave, but the realist in me knows my current one likely won't last as long as I do (I hope anyway!), and as friends replace their current units so frequently I'm often reminded I'll eventually have to deal with and be in that situation myself too.

    3. Re:Microwave trays by jasonataylor · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Anonymous Coward wrote,

      Of course there are microwaves made with competent stirrers and well-placed feeds. ... The main problem is that the cheapest microwave ovens are just good enough to follow recipes that call for some number of seconds on the high setting while being unreliable at other settings, and the food industry targets its instructions accordingly. This is a global problem, not unique to the USA.

      I think your comment is misleading, for it incorrectly implies that the main problem is cheap microwave ovens and directions to "the masses" about how to use them on food packages. In my opinion, this is wrong for the following reasons.

      Firstly, the stirrer technology is you refer to is just a some rotating metal near the magnetron. It is more than 20 years old. By and large, it sucks. That's why it has been replaced by the rotating carousel, which is far superior and why you cannot, actually, buy it easily today in a new microwave-capable oven unless rotation is ruled out for a different reason. However, field unevenness in no way is the main cause of the problems discussed in the article, which is not one-sided heating, as can be the case in non-rotating ovens, but that heating is concentrated in already defrosted areas and food edges/corners.

      In other words, even with a perfect EM radiative bath the edges and corners of a hotpocket will still burn or be overcooked if heated rapidly enough while the center is still frozen. That's why even if you buy the most expensive microwave oven on the planet, it will still have this same problem of producing food that is overcooked on the edges and the corners, which experience the highest EM radiation. The cause is not any unevenness of EM modes in an unloaded oven cavity. Rather, it is the shielding effect of food and the relatively small field skin depths to food size ratios.

      Your comment about pyrolytic surfaces is interesting, but also misleading, for it implies that convection microwave ovens solve the problems discussed in the blog post. The problem is that microwave ovens use steam cooling of the corners, which boil and splatter food all over the oven as the steam turns things like beans into tiny bombs. Even with simultaneously convective and microwave ovens, of which I own one, one still has a frozen center burnt corner issue, since convective heating is even worse at edge heating. The reason is of course that the convective oven relies upon thermal conduction, which is entirely skin heating, although in truth one gets some infrared radiation which can penetrate a little bit.

      You asked,

      why not cook with microwaves and brown with the grill simultaneously?

      Great question. Ceramic would work for that, but it is expensive. Traditional stainless steel grills are conductive, so they would reflect the EM radiation back into the magnetron, which will shorten it's life. So here is where your comment is spot on; it is indeed a cost and consumer ignorance issue, although grills have other issue I won't go into here. Regardless, dual mode ovens do not fully fix the underlying issue anyway, which, again, is over the overheating of food portion edges and corners.

      The primary reason one probably sees less burning in dual-mode ovens may come as a surprise. This just my hunch, but, in my opinion, it is primarily because dual-mode microwave/convection ovens tend to have a larger cavity. The FCC regulates how much leakage can occur in a microwave oven, and there is more cavity area. So larger ovens have to have less maximum magnetron power, due to the FCC. Therefore, dual mode ovens tend to use less magnetron power, which gives more time for conductive heating to defrost the food centers. Another alternative reason has to due with the amperage limitations of most nema (or other) sockets. If there is power going to a heating coil, that's less power for the magnetron. Same effect, however; longer time to cook = more time to thaw cent

      --
      jason.arthur.taylor at gmail dot com;240-471-5613. I respond to all emails, if only with "ok." If I did't respond, I did
  2. Somebody needs to buy... by Bin_jammin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    a microwave with more than 300 watts of power. I've never had the issue of hot outside/cold inside, my problems have always been of the hot outside/nuclear inferno/solar coronal mass ejection on the inside variety, regardless of where I've microwaved them. I don't even follow the instructions on the package very closely, just pull it out of the wrapper, put it in the sleeve, toss it in, slap the door shut, 3 or so minutes, and out comes an external breading hot to the touch with napalm in the center. Maybe there are just a lot of broken microwaves, or even more likely, people that don't know how to use them properly?

    1. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by war4peace · · Score: 4, Informative

      How to microwave popcorn:
      Put the bag in, turn microwave on. When number of pops/second goes down to 1, stop, pull bag out, enjoy results.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    2. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hmmm, my MW is 1100 watts. For frozen meat pies (Australia's national dish), heat for 1min, stand for 5min, heat for 1min, stand for 2min, it comes out like a warm pie from the bakery. However if I heat for 2min straight, the outside is hot, the centre is frozen, and the pastry has turned into something that would be suitable for re-treading tyres. Thermal inertia explains the frozen centre, but I'm neither a cook or chemist so I have no idea why the pastry turns to rubber?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Funny

      Fuck it. Too much work. I'll just eat this tube of cake frosting instead.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    4. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by camperdave · · Score: 2

      you cook them for 3 min 30 sec

      You cook them for 3 min, 30 seconds? Try 3 minutes 33 seconds. Your finger is already on the 3 key. Why waste the seek time needed to bring it to the 0 key? Or try a 3:21 swipe. 3 min, 30 seconds - Who's got that kind of time?

      Also, do not be afraid to explore the posibilities of 77, 88, or 99 second cook times.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by Greyfox · · Score: 2

      You gotta let those fuckers cool off for a couple of minutes, until the gooey center of liquid hot magma cools down. Third degree tongue burns are no fun!

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    6. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by retchdog · · Score: 2

      Better method that doesn't taste like shit:

      Heat a few T of coconut oil in pot (narrowish but tall works best; think along the lines of a pasta pot, not a dutch oven or saute pan) with ~3 kernels of popcorn in it. When the probe kernels start popping, add a few T of popcorn. Agitate pot gently until kernels are popped. Pour into bowl and add some salt.

      Oops, I forgot to use the microwave. Shit. I dunno, I guess you could store the popcorn in it as long as it doesn't interfere with the things a microwave is good for. I've experimented with preheating the kernels in the microwave so that they pop faster in the coconut oil, but results are inconclusive to date.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    7. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by jasonataylor · · Score: 2
      Perhaps, but you could have it backwards. From http://thehealthyapron.com/2011/06/08/should-we-be-thinking-twice-about-microwave-popcorn/:

      Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), also known as C8 (a Teflon Chemical), line microwave popcorn bags and get in to your bloodstream from consuming the food inside the bag. PFCAs have been linked to cancer and other development problems in animals.

      --
      jason.arthur.taylor at gmail dot com;240-471-5613. I respond to all emails, if only with "ok." If I did't respond, I did
    8. Re:Somebody needs to buy... by the+phantom · · Score: 2

      There ain't nothin' in this world that needs to be microwaved for anything other than an integer number of minutes.

  3. learn the tools you use by HybridST · · Score: 3, Funny

    Most microwaves have a power control. 90 seconds at power 2 or 3, wait 1 minute. Flip, 1 minute at full power. Wait 3 minutes. Serve.

    There exist websites and books devoted to this appliance and how to use it correctly. This is a non-story.

    Caveat: there are some nice physics going on in the explanation but only for the layman. Look elsewhere for the gritty detail we /.ers are used to seeing.

    --
    Ever notice that Cobra Commander sounds an awful lot like Star scream?
    1. Re:learn the tools you use by toejam13 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed. I rarely microwave my food with a power duty cycle level higher than 70%. You need those few seconds of rest for the heat to evenly distribute inside your food.

      For frozen stuff, I usually set it to 50% so that the outside doesn't overcook. Takes longer, but not as long as a regular oven.

  4. Seriously. by adolf · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've never had a problem with Hot Pockets: Follow directions, learn how it works in a given microwave oven, and...done: Ridiculously-hot cheap, bubbly, unhealthy goodness.

    Meanwhile, I don't need to read TFA to learn how the powdered aluminum wrapper turns RF energy into thermal energy. And I don't need TFA to know that any thing has a certain reluctance toward changing temperatures, as nothing is a perfect thermal conductor.

    In fact: Dude, I've been cooking with a microwave since I was a little kid: It was the first kitchen appliance I was certified on other than -- maybe -- an electric can opener.

    Up next on /.: How shoelaces work to keep our shoes on our feet, followed by a lesson in using a light switch to illuminate a dark room. Or "Toast: Why bread is caramelized only on the outside when using the every-day toaster."

    *head in hands*

    1. Re:Seriously. by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 2

      How shoelaces work to keep our shoes on our feet

      Ted already did that one.

  5. It's on purpose by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

    Scalding on the outside and frozen inside is a feature: it's the Hot Pocket's way of telling you it really isn't proper nutrition.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  6. I "airwave" frozen food lately. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

    I know I'm going to eat a frozen dinner so I sit it on the counter for 10 minutes before i heat it. They heat up evenly and faster.

    I also nuke for a 15% longer but at 80% power.

    Of course, I also gussy frozen food up too. Adding just a teeny bit of herbs, or sour cream, more vegetables or some fresh cheese can make them quite tasty.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  7. Re:Penetration of microwaves by Deadstick · · Score: 2

    OK, so frozen stuff doesn't microwave easily, but then why does the outside heat first?

    When a wave penetrates a conducting medium, it transfers energy into the medium, and as a result it gets weaker exponentially. The intensity vs. depth is given by

    E=Ei*exp[-C(depth/wavelength)]

    where Ei is the intensity at the surface, and C is a constant that depends on the characteristics of the medium. C is small in ice, so the wave doesn't transfer much energy initially, and most of the energy just trucks on through and out the other side. Still, there is some attenuation, so the intensity is greatest at the surface and melting occurs there first.

    As soon as that happens at the surface, C gets much larger and the liquid sucks most of the energy out, getting progressively hotter. The remaining energy again encounters ice, and has almost clear sailing until it hits the water on the other side, and again heats the water.