Slashdot Mirror
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds
PvtVoid writes: "Jeopardy champion Arthur Chu pens a heartfelt takedown of misogyny in nerd culture: 'I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be "flattered." I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder. I've heard it from acquaintances, I've heard it from friends. I've heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
"Itâ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
You say we're all the same.
You don't even know my name.
Sometime somewhere someone wants hurt you and I'm one of them
You think you know about me...
You don't know a damn thing about me!
So I take all the blame...
I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man!
The guy went to the gym and loved to go out and take pics of himself and his BMW. He was not a nerd.
You will have to use the Asians or autists as scapegoats because we are not taking the fall for this one. Go to hell you piece of shit.
...most of my life, obviously - because I don't ever recall EVER seeing a geek/nerd in my circles stalking anyone, threatening a girl and never mind hitting one. I'd say they'd improve their life if they even TRIED to HIT on any woman at all.
Most of those I know are frightened at the very concept of dating, pretty socially awkward I guess, but kind and gentle caring people who wouldn't even DREAM of hurting anyone. Sure, they'll kick your mental-a** and hurt your coding feelings by pointing out the numerous bugs in your code, and flaws in your theories, and possibly sweep the floor with your ego in gaming, but no way they'd ever even lift a finger to actually hurt you.
Nerds are usually unsure of themselves, usually excellent at SOMETHING and not so much at everything else. This is usually because they have spent so much time coding and learning very complicated stuff that takes a LONG time of anyone's life, so it's bound to steal some time from the usual life that just about anyone else live, learning the ropes of networking and social skills.
I must have been living under a rock the last 30 years or so.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
So, while the main threads of this discussion will certainly have no trouble sustaining combustion, what happens if we change the title to:
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Muslims
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Hispanics
Misogyny, Entitlement, and The 1%
Is it still open season on Nerds? Will I not get in trouble for binding "those people" to Nerds, as opposed to Blacks, or Jews, or... ?
"No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled." I really don't know where to begin and which line of thought should i follow when answering this idiotic sentence. From the meta-level fact that we as a species need to have sex in order to survive? From the evolutionary point of view, where lust is a mechanism of encouraging and rewarding intercourse? From the psychological point of view where the need for intimacy self-fulfillment and for high self-esteem is highly entangled with need of finding a partner? So "what the fuck is wrong with us?". Maybe the correct question is: "what the fuck is wrong with him?"
I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
The irony is that Chu is attacking nerds for stereotyping all women. But in the process, he's stereotyping all nerds.
Look Arthur, we're all really happy that you've got a GF who you think this stunt will impress. But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Really people you have it backwards the cause was no misogyny that is a symptom.
If this guy had been gay he would have hated men that did not want to sleep with him.
If this person had been a straight woman she would have hated men that would not sleep with her.
If this person had been a gay woman she would have hated women that would not sleep with her.
They key here is Narcissist. It is selfishness taken to a pathological level. People like that hate those that do not give them what they want.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Why is Elliot Rodger being put into the Nerd category? I have not seen anything on this guy that would put him in the Geek or Nerd category. What languages did he code in? What con's did he attend? What was his comic book/manga collection like? What technical degree's did he hold? This discussion has nothing to do with "misogyny entitlement nerds" but a genuine crazy kid.
Just because some guy is a Asperger social reject does not put him into the category of nerd or geek. Elliot has major issues and he blamed women and people who had social skills for his troubles. He was an entitled little shit who thought having a BMW, traveling the world and wearing $500 sweaters would automatically get him the girls. It turns out he lacked the one major component in the Get The Girl Formula that you really need, a personality. He found an outlet in Men's Rights/The Red Pill/Misogyny but he could have found an outlet in any of the other shitty beliefs that exist in our society like 9/11 conspiracies, Little Green Men and the Black President is from Kenya. Blaming a sub collection of a sub portion of our culture is not going to find the answer to the complex problem of what to do with truly mentally ill people.
Linux O Muerte!
That's because this entire submission should be modded -5 Flamebait
The irony is that Chu is attacking nerds for stereotyping all women. But in the process, he's stereotyping all nerds.
Look Arthur, we're all really happy that you've got a GF who you think this stunt will impress. But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
Yeah! Bro's before ho's!
Oh, wait. Dammit.
Now you're getting somewhere. I've never seen inappropriate or aggressive behavior towards women in any of the geek/nerd groups I've been in. In fact, I'd say most of them would get strong marks for showing full respect for women. That said, I am certain that reports of specific incidents and groups having a pattern of behavior are real. I recall one of the security conventions had a problem, which somehow didn't surprise me, knowing that's a sub-group of geekdom with its own dynamic.
Generally speaking, I have found the bigger problems tend to go with the more macho types though. Yes, occasionally you hear of a problem with a school group other than a sports team, but in the vast majority of cases, groups of men who are aggressive towards women are groups of men who are GENERALLY aggressive. Drug gangs, low grade thugs, etc., are all far worse, unquestionably, than "geeks".
It really sounds to me like there is a concerted effort to apply labels and groupings to what is really just an age old problem.
Now, on the other hand, can we address the reality that men are FAR more likely than women to be victims of violence, physical intimidation, violent crime, and other physical threats such as military hazards and other job-related physical danger?
The problem here is not that anyone is against ending violence against women. It's that we have blown what is effectively a rare occurrence (dude going nuts) being confused with a non-existent pattern of nerd rage, all being whipped into a social media shitstorm to make PC points in the press.
No one likes hanging around "gross creepy dudes," not even other gross creepy dudes. This guy who Chu is talking about certainly wasn't being "allowed to thrive" by anyone. His own roommates didn't even like him.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
Because this whole discussion is silly. Plenty of nerds are misogynistic jerks. But plenty of non-nerds are as well, and I have seen NO evidence that it is any more common among nerds than among the population in general. In the absence of evidence, associating "nerd culture" with misogynism is just stupid.
Throughout my career, I have worked with many engineers, programmers, and other nerds. My experience is that they are the least misogynistic people I have ever met, and they have mostly been polite, professional, and welcoming to their female co-workers. Have you ever worked with salesmen? Or construction workers? Nerds are saints by comparison.
..."women seem wicked when you're unwanted."
Telling a bunch of people to "just stop" fails to address the underlying causes.
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women. Rejection and loneliness results in the misogyny and creepiness lamented here. As a matter of mental self-defense, geeks decide that women are turned off by intelligence, and they (despite themselves) go around demanding that women should smarten-up and start finding intelligence sexy. Well, this is incorrect.
Women aren't turned off by intelligence. They are turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
If you want to get a real girlfriend, you are going to have to get over your sense of superiority, practice authentic humility, and be ready to give up a lot of your video-game time and study-time to instead go out on social events with a group of mutual friends, on a regular basis. Clean up your act, become what women want, and *then* you might get one. If you aren't willing to do this, then you have no business demanding that women start putting up with a bunch of stuff they don't like so they can have the privilege of being with you.
As the guy who tells other guys to stop being so damn idiotic, I'm sick and tired of all these articles stereotyping men as misogynistic animals.
Look, I'm actively fighting this problem (and it is a problem, nobody is saying otherwise), with you. So why are you so quick to group me with the monkeys in our society?
Seriously. I'm sick of these articles saying I'm a bad person, and I hate women, and I'm a pig, an animal, and a rapist who should be ashamed of my physical urges.
Please focus on the individual bad apples, instead of grouping them as "men".
Unlike porn, which yada yada rimshot hey-ooh!
vi users...
The difference is that those groups aren't as self-blaming as nerds are, and they aren't so quick to take the bait. It's like if you gathered a bunch of guys in a room and shouted "misogynist!" and the nerd amongst them said, "I'm sorry!" even though he didn't really do anything.
A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
And those comments show why the "for the children" crowd is full of brain dead thugs. If the topic of pedophiles even comes up, they react with violence and mindless persecution. Look at how it's suggested that pedophiles--even those who have raped no one--should be murdered. They don't even know what a pedophile is.
There are few groups more terrifying than the "for the children" crowd, who will sacrifice everyone's fundamental liberties, demonize mere thoughts, and murder innocents if they think it will protect some children.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Please back up your assertions with some facts.
Fair enough. Please see table 7: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...
A statistically significant higher percentage of victims of violent crime are male, consistently, across that survey's data.
Oh for fuck's sake, this stupid argument again? When was the last time you saw a guy in a action game that wasn't ripped? Look at characters like Dante in Devil May Cry. You don't see men getting all butthurt because the common perception of men in video games is pure alpha male, muscle bound. Perhaps you have some internalized male-hate, or maybe it's disdain for 'geeks'. Either way, you need a better argument.
I don't buy for a second that men are more likely to be the victims of violence, intimidation and other physical threats.
It's absolutely true. Go to fbi.gov and look at the stats.
Men are more likely to do all of those, but they are more likely aimed at women.
Wrong. Women do not make up the majority of crime victims.
When was the last time you worried about being raped walking home at night?
Most rape occurs between acquaintances. The prototypical "rapist with a knife" makes up a rather small proportion of these crimes. Again, fbi.gov. Facts are your friends, they help you become educated and disregard biased propaganda promulgated by political groups with an agenda. It sounds like you've been a victim of their false narratives.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
That's the astonishing thing about this. I read some of Elliot Rodger's book, and he was obviously an extremely disturbed man, who had a severe case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and also had other psychiatric disorders besides. At various points, he considered lashing out violently against society for the "injustice" he suffered when he did not win the powerball $400m lottery, which he felt he had been certain to win, and was entitled to.
He was crazy. He had a whole team of shrinks working on him, since he was age 8, to no avail. For much of his life he went to psychologists every single day, to no avail. He was crazy.
Yet so many people on the internet will find the moral or political lesson in it. For example: this massacre just goes to show how depraved Hollywood culture is (the editorial at the Washington Post said this). Or, it just demonstrates what's really wrong in American culture (approximately a third of the comments on scribd said this). Or, it just shows how the country has become too conservative, or too liberal. Or, it's a classic example of postmodern leftism run amok ('"ELLIOT RODGERS: PSYCHO SPEWING POSTMODERNIST CRAP"). Or, this is just another example of geek culture, even though Elliot Rodger obviously was not a geek, and spent much of his free time shopping for expensive Armani clothing.
The very silliest of these claims, was the contention that it shows what's wrong with geek culture. Elliot Rodgers was obviously not a geek. Quite the opposite, he had utter contempt for geeks. He considered them as not "alpha" males, and therefore beneath contempt, and he says so repeatedly in his "manifesto". The very first people he killed were his geeky roommates, whom he stabbed to death for precisely that reason. Claiming that Rodgers was inspired by geek culture is the most absurd of the moral lessons being drawn, and is even less serious than claiming he was inspired by postmodern leftism.
But it doesn't matter Elliot Rodgers was obviously not a geek. Even so, his massacre will still serve for Arthur Chu's moral indictment. The massacre can still be used as an indictment of geek culture, despite the obvious lack of any real connection between geek culture and Rodger's acts.
But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
The thing that all these finger-wagging missives fail to take into account is that masculinity, like femininity, is a social construct. There are underlying biological differences between the male and female populations, but there are also broad distributions of individual characteristics, and the gender binary model attempts to impose a crisp, discontinuous division between "masculine" and "feminine".
In doing so, it does violence to anyone who fails to fit very well with the nominal masculine or feminine ideals of the society they happen to find themselves in.
The feminist movement has done a reasonably good job, more-or-less, in pointing out how these forces operate to shape women's lives.
We have done a lousy job of appreciating that the same kinds of forces shape men's lives as well, so we get these ridiculous claims that individual men are creatures of perfect agency, utterly unaffected by the social forces that are attempting to bludgeon them into good little emotionless soldiers (or whatever your society's favoured model of masculinity is at the moment). Telling profoundly damaged, struggling individuals to "stop whining" and so on is the opposite of what they need. They need to be told: "I feel you pain, but I hate your behaviour..."
The utter lack of compassion for men, and the complete lack of awareness of how the social construction of masculinity affects them, is one of the most depressing things about the current discourse on these issues.
None of this excuses individuals who behave badly, but if we want men to get better, we have to stop failing them as completely and systematically as we are now. We have to start valuing their lives, their experiences, their reality, rather than simply hitting them harder with various real and rhetorical hammers when they refuse to fit into the socially constructed masculine role that has been prepared for them.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.