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Cisco Opposes Net Neutrality

angry tapir writes: All bits running over the Internet are not equal and should not be treated that way by broadband providers, despite net neutrality advocates' calls for traffic neutral regulations, Cisco Systems has said. Some Web-based applications, including rapidly growing video services, home health monitoring and public safety apps, will demand priority access to the network, while others, like most Web browsing and email, may live with slight delays, said Jeff Campbell, Cisco's vice president for government and community relations. "Different bits do matter differently. We need to ensure that we have a system that allows this to occur."

17 of 337 comments (clear)

  1. Somewhere in my mind... by symbolset · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Somehow in my mind Cisco and Oracle are the same company. Maybe I have reached my dotage, but when I see one mentioned the other may as well be there too. They are like Satan had identical twins separated at birth.

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    1. Re:Somewhere in my mind... by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

      They should merge and call the result Oracicle.

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    2. Re:Somewhere in my mind... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Cisco are a networking company, right? They should know the difference between net neutrality and QoS.

      The crux of net neutrality is bits from different providers being given the same priority. Nobody is arguing that we can afford to drop some Bittorrent packets in exchange for VOIP / video streaming. What the cable companies want to do, however, is prioritise their video streaming, for example, over someone elses. That is the net neutrality issue.

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    3. Re:Somewhere in my mind... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oral-co + Cicko = Oralsicko.

      Anyway, Jeff Campbell is a fucking idiot. Who the fuck is he to say that someone's stupid YouTube video experience is more important than someone else's business email? He's astroturfing because his company sells networking equipment that handles filtering which is only needed in a world without net neutrality.

    4. Re:Somewhere in my mind... by Monoman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cisco also knows where their income comes from.

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    5. Re:Somewhere in my mind... by LordLimecat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's the difference, in two sentences:

      QoS is about prioritizing and filtering traffic based on type .
      Net Neutrality is about prioritizing and filtering traffic based on source .

      You could possibly say that QoS is layer 4-7 (port, application, transport) while Net Neutrality is layer 3 (address).

  2. I prefer by fredprado · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I prefer my bits non optimized than someone else deciding how they should be "optimized" for me. Thank you!

    1. Re:I prefer by jargonburn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought the point wasn't that some bits should/shouldn't be prioritized, but rather that SOURCES shouldn't be prioritized. I'm fine with VoIP traffic being prioritized.
      I would take issue with, say, my ISP's VoIP application working fine while delays are introduced to Skype traffic. Prioritizing certain types of traffic make sense and can be provider-agnostic; prioritizing specific companies/sources, however, is chock-full of problems.

    2. Re:I prefer by skids · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's a giant sticky mess. Many advocates for net neutrality have only a vague idea of how things work so their proposals are vague. Many with the experience to produce more detailed proposals have ulterior motives.

      Anyway, if you assume honoring protocol priorities is OK, then you end up with abusive situations where an ISP that runs video protocol 1 can sink traffic from a competitor based on the fact that they use video protocol 2. Add to that that protocols can be patented, and you'd end up with an incentive to create and patent stupid protocols just to do exactly that.

      Also there are services whose availability would benefit the customer/public/economy that involve prioritizing packets between privately administered device networks, and not by protocol, and defining the difference between those services and unfair competitive practices leads us down a road to byzantinism.

      Really we need to get to a point where end-users can send ToS bits into the network and have them honored as long as they are below a fair usage level for ToS packets, and a certain percent of the network is kept free for best effort, allowing the consumer some level of live control. Before we even do that, though, we need to just move towards "ISPs and other providers must make X% of all built capacity available at a (possibly tariffed) basic rate for public best effort use" and apply that principle across all areas of bandwidth, pps processing power, and -- the toughest sell but very important -- CDN capacity. The cash flow through CDNs really needs to be further regulated to eliminate the perverse incentive of making money off congested pipes on the back end. The restriction on sales of prioritized services in the other 100-X% part of the pipe would provide appropriate incentive for expansion of the entire pipe, benefiting the basic rate users not just the premium arrangements. The X could be adjusted by policy changes until the sweet spot is found or as the ecosystem changes.

      Now if the above was TLDR, a solid proposal would be 100x more complicated.

    3. Re:I prefer by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I absolutely want my traffic optimised. Your Bittorrent traffic can wait, whereas my VOIP call cannot.

      That, however, is a quality of service issue. I'm very happy for their to be QoS on my connection. However, I don't want your Verizon StreamTV or whatever service getting priority over my Netflix service. That is a net neutrality issue.

      We should not dilute the issue by confusing the two, or even discussing the two together. They are not the same thing.

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  3. its a shame... by johnsnails · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its a shame they don't have a vested interest in hardware capable of making such a thing possible.

  4. What About Electricity? by Bob9113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Some Web-based applications, including rapidly growing video services, home health monitoring and public safety apps, will demand priority access to the network,

    Do health monitoring devices get priority access to electricity? Does the electric company get to decide which devices will be shut down first? Can they shut down your devices before they shut down your neighbor's, because you bought Sony instead of Samsung? Would it be good for the electric company to be allowed to negotiate priority access to electricity with the appliance manufacturers?

    Net neutrality is about protecting the more important free market -- the free market in information -- by requiring the carriers to compete only on price and overall performance of their network.

  5. This is NOT a net neutrality issue by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Net neutrality is the idea that data from any provider (rich or poor, powerful company or a single guy, corrupt or honest) is treated the same way on the network.

    Cisco's comment concerns the prioritization of data depending on its type. I see nothing wrong with that.

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  6. Unfortunately, we have a problem... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Architecturally, Cisco's point has merit (aside from being purely an excuse to sell higher-margin fancy-shaping hardware, rather than brutally commodified really-fast-switching hardware). Some applications are more latency sensitive than others.

    However, there's a serious complication that Cisco is either ignoring or doesn't have any reason to care about: the mechanisms for doling out 'priority access to the network' and 'slight delays' are more or less target agnostic. There is nothing magic about hypothetical VOIP-911, Granny Accelerometer, or whatnot that makes it easy to identify them as "justified" prioritization and leave everything else alone.

    If you have the system set up to promote and demote traffic based on type, origin, destination, (or any similar set of parameters sufficient to plausibly identify 'important' traffic, rather than just basic TCP congestion behavior), you can promote and demote whatever you feel like writing rulesets for. Given that the last-mile is pretty much buttoned up by a cozy oligopoly of incumbent telco and cable outfits, does anybody seriously expect the shaping to stop at making sure those 'public safety apps' get the message out in time, rather than paying lip service to ensuring that 911 calls go through and then moving on to the actually profitable business of chopping the internet up and attempting to reach optimum price discrimination and suppress competition?

    So, barring major changes in the competitive landscape, or some sort of regulation-indistinguishable-from-magic, agreeing with Cisco on architectural grounds;but still rejecting the idea on the balance, is a perfectly cogent position(you can argue that it isn't correct; but it's not contradictory): Yes, traffic prioritization will allow better performance of latency sensitive applications (if they are in fact prioritized) all else being equal. However, once you have the architecture in place for that, the economic incentives to go nuts with it are absurdly compelling. By comparison, 'just grow your way out of it' isn't architecturally elegant; but it provides a nice, aligned, incentive for ISPs to build out and people who want more performance to buy fatter pipes, rather than for ISPs to let the infrastructure rot and focus on squeezing every penny out of every user.

  7. Re:In that case by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't confuse quality-of-service in general for anti-net-neutrality in particular.

    Cisco is technically correct in that real-time or near-real-time services need higher priority than data transfers that don't need real-time synchronization or timing. If I'm watching a live TV program I need the network traffic carrying that program to get to me correctly, in real time, or watching the program live doesn't work. If I'm surfing the Internet to use web forums, mild reductions in performance won't really impact my experience. I do not have a problem with an ISP attempting to shape its traffic to give priority to content requiring real-time capability.

    Opposing "Net Neutrality" seems to be opposite-ville to me. I see the goal of ending net neutrality being for ISPs to force payment from large real-time content providers in order to keep that content flowing with enough priority to make watching it practical. Even though the customer is already paying for enough bandwidth to receive everything if the ISP doesn't intentionally break it.

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  8. Re:Density Myth. . . by symbolset · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Population density is why we don't have gigabit fiber to tiny little rural towns in the middle of nowhere like Ephrata, WA (pop 7000). No, wait. They have had gigabit fiber to the home since 2001. Back when that cost a metric boatload of money. And yet the network made an embarassingly large profit they had to pay back to their customers because they are a nonprofit. How is that even possible?

    It is possible because your density story is a lie. It is made up. There is no truth to it. If Ephrata, and even smaller towns in that county, can have gigabit at a reasonable price 14 years ago then we all can now. The tech is 100x cheaper now. There is no excuse for not fibering up the whole country.

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  9. Title is a bit sensationalist... by Drakonblayde · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Of course a network vendor is going to point out that some packets needs preferential treatment over others. It's something they've worked to engineer into their product lines because their customers demand the capability to do so. For an ISP, 911 VoIP packets are a much higher priority than World of Warcraft packets.

    Too many folks are caught up in the idea that prioritization is bad. There's a difference between between the philosophy of Network Neutrality and the operational reality of packet prioritization.

    Saying Cisco opposes Net Neutrality just because they're pointing out some simple truths on how network operate today is like saying Glock supports terrorism just because they make guns.

    Of course, if the title weren't sensational, no one would probably read it.

    It saddens me that Slashdot seems to have decided that they need to resort to the same tactics as the National Enquirer