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How Secret Partners Expand NSA's Surveillance Dragnet

Posted by timothy on from the if-they're-gonna-do-it-anyhow dept.

Advocatus Diaboli (1627651) writes It has already been widely reported that the NSA works closely with eavesdropping agencies in the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia as part of the so-called Five Eyes surveillance alliance. But the latest Snowden documents show that a number of other countries, described by the NSA as "third-party partners," are playing an increasingly important role – by secretly allowing the NSA to install surveillance equipment on their fiber-optic cables. The NSA documents state that under RAMPART-A, foreign partners "provide access to cables and host U.S. equipment." This allows the agency to covertly tap into "congestion points around the world" where it says it can intercept the content of phone calls, faxes, e-mails, internet chats, data from virtual private networks, and calls made using Voice over IP software like Skype.

34 of 63 comments (clear)

  1. De-fund the NSA Completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is oppressive and unconstitutional.

    1. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

    2. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One could make the argument for targeted foreign intelligence collection. All that they've succeeded in doing so far is further eroding the already shaky reputation enjoyed by the United States. At best the NSA spins its wheels, at worst it's counter-productive to the U.S. economy.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    3. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The way they operate (at least within ECHELON a.k.a. "five eyes" / AUSCANNZUKUS) is that we spy on their citizens while they spy on ours, and then information is exchanged after the fact, thereby avoiding any country "spying on its own citizens." It's essentially a loophole in the 4th amendment and its counterparts in those countries.

    4. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the most powerful argument that can be made against the NSA (and today's government in general) is that it was once seen as a necessary evil that could be harnessed to protect liberties. It surely wasn't anywhere near perfect ever, but it was hoped that over time, it would eventually slide towards perfection as a servant of the people.

      Now, does anyone seriously believe the government is anything but a bureaucratic monster, gorging itself via wars (on terrorism, on poverty, on drugs, etc) to the end of enlarging itself and shrinking everyone else's pie? I mean seriously?

    5. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by m00sh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

      The main question is for what purpose?

      Is it for national security or for other reasons? If I had data like this, I could probably make a killing in the stock market or provide lots of insider information for hedge funds.

      Another scary situations like the Iran Shah manipulation or mujahadeen in Afghanistan. Powerful agencies being able to manipulate government, countries, regions by manipulating communication. We already know of the Cuba text message uprising and I'm sure its attempted in many other places. It creates civil war and misery for a lot of people for the benefit of a very few by manipulating unstable systems into chaotic situations.

    6. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sure he loves the USA, else he wouldn't have said that.

      Ah red herring. You must think that de-funding the oppressive and unconstitutional NSA = hating the USA

      That red herring has been swimming upstream since about 9/11

    7. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      It's essentially a loophole in the 4th amendment and its counterparts in those countries.

      I don't believe it is a loophole. The NSA and it's supporters are using it for a bullshit claim that it's a loophole. As yet, I don't think the Supreme Court has weighed in on this question.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    8. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Supreme Court is pretty cowardly about that stuff. They have, time and again, utterly failed to rule that if the government is prohibited from doing X, and doing Y achieves the same goal, then Y is also prohibited. Example: the federal government has no power to set a national drinking age. It is specifically given to the states in the amendment that repealed Prohibition. So they threaten to withhold highway funds unless states do it for them, and that goal is achieved.

      One's opinion on the issue shouldn't be relevant: the effect of this is that Congress has done something that they are in fact not allowed to do. The mechanism is irrelevant to a thinking person. Yet the Supreme Court had no problem with this, and of course since it only affected young people nobody in the US stood up for it. Now we have this massive spying problem going on, using much the very same logic, and you expect the Supreme Court to apply proper logic to it? I very much doubt it.

    9. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Documents look like it's primarily focused at foreign targets with cooperation from other countries. Shouldn't the NSA be doing foreign intelligence collection?

      We just got through GCHQ saying it can spy on UK citizens because data transmitted between UK citizens and US entities like Facebook and Google is "foreign."

      So you'll forgive me if I'm just a little bit skeptical that NSA isn't targeting US persons under the same rationale, namely that any packet that leaves the US to a foreign destination is a legitimate target, including any packets -- and NSA pinky-swears that it's not fucking with BGP in order to guarantee that the most efficient route from Manhatten to the Bronx occasionally involves a transatlantic cable and six hops in Europe -- that can be made to go through a foreign destination.

      NSA might be doing the right thing here and discarding all communications of US persons, but that's no longer a safe, reasonable, or even sane assumption.

    10. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by AHuxley · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Re "If I had data like this, I could probably make a killing in the stock market or provide lots of insider information for hedge funds."
      Thats the reality Australia, Canada, UK, NZ, Germany, France, other EU NSA helper nations face internally long term.
      Generations of generals, top technical experts and their groomed staff are giving all their nations secure data away to the USA in real time.
      How can a bright, local, entrepreneur with job creating, huge profit exports ever hope to compete against the USA? A nations best and brightest telcos are giving their own banking sectors time and trade/time sensitive data to the USA.
      A nations telcos are giving their own emerging scientific data to the USA.
      A nations telcos are networking their own gov data to the USA when they only ever upgrade to the next generation of junk encryption.
      Re "It creates civil war and misery for a lot of people for the benefit of a very few by manipulating unstable systems into chaotic situations."
      You can see that every year - the protected and well supported movement of CIA backed 'freedom fighters' help to reduce/split nations to smaller groups needing constant outside support.
      How The US Is Arming Both Sides Of The Iraqi Conflict 06/12/2014
      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...
      The only way out is for talented local entrepreneurs to understand what signals intelligence is when they used a phone, fax, network or any other digital device.
      The only way out is for talented diplomatic staff to understand what signals intelligence is when they use their bespoke embassy communications equipment.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    11. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by znrt · · Score: 2

      Now, does anyone seriously believe the government is anything but a bureaucratic monster, gorging itself via wars (on terrorism, on poverty, on drugs, etc) to the end of enlarging itself and shrinking everyone else's pie? I mean seriously?

      me. actually government is just a proxy for enlarging the pie of a few. it's just a coverup for private tyrants.

      "we the people" should oppose this, uphold our rights etc. we don't because we are mostly dumb and lazy, but anyway if we tried hard enough to be taken seriously they would simply kill enough of us to keep the rest in line.

    12. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by rolfwind · · Score: 2

      It would be counter to purposes to "win" those wars, when fighting them enriches the special interests involved in pushing them in the first place.

      Treatments bring money, cures do not.

    13. Re:De-fund the NSA Completely by Parker+Lewis · · Score: 1

      Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

      Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

  2. secret partner by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    meet man-in-the-middle

  3. Re:Skype? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Skype is indeed encrypted, but I think it'd be a fairly safe bet that the NSA has the keys/access to a backdoor/some other method by which they can easily decrypt such calls. Especially in the years since Skype was acquired by Microsoft.

  4. Re:Skype? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Proprietary "encryption" means the private entity (Skype) can decrypt it. As you might know, Skype is owned by Microsoft, which is a US corporation. Consequently, the NSA has access to all Skype communications.

  5. Re:Skype? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought that Skype used some proprietary protocol/encryption to prevent unauthorized clients that would also prevent the NSA from listening in. Does somebody know something I don't?

    dom

    Yeah it's been bought by Microsoft.
    I think it's pretty clear at this point that you cannot trust in any way shape or form any US firm.

  6. I've finally had enough. by un1nsp1red · · Score: 5, Funny

    it says it can intercept the content of phone calls, faxes...

    I've sat on the sidelines since the whole NSA "revelations" began unfolding, but I've finally had enough. I'll not stand by and let the government continue intercepting my faxes.

    1. Re:I've finally had enough. by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Now might be the time to invest in plain old fashioned postal services. Still need a warrant, can trace opening or closing and, secrets can be personally delivered. What you can be will happen is cloud services are going to take a real hammering, everything is going to start shifting back in house and more parallel networking is going. One network and computer system for internet and unsecure communications and another internal network and computer system for secured data. Data only shifts from one to the other via the computer security office, after is has been checked and audited. If you are going to stick you data on the cloud, you might as well stick a big screen display on your front wall and stream all you most valuable information straight to the public. Industrial and commercial espionage is with out doubt the number goal of this exercise, hundreds of billions of dollars are up for grabs with this kind of global inside information, insider trading, trade secrets, patent research and, of course extortion upon a global scale, personal, industrial leaders and politicians.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:I've finally had enough. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They photograph everything that goes through the post. They claim that they only capture what is on the outside of the envelope, but it wouldn't be hard to use some kind of x-ray scanner to see what is written inside. That's exactly the kind of bullshit legal loophole they like.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:I've finally had enough. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Or they just never use the contents of your letter in court, thus keeping it away from judicial review.

      Read everybody's mail and figure out who you want to go after. Then find some other pretense to get a warrant and search their house. Maybe your weeds are a little too tall so the friendly neighborhood cop goes to leave a note on your door and could have sworn they smelled smoke, so exigent circumstances and all that... :)

  7. Germany in the list by gmuslera · · Score: 2

    ... somewhat Merkel deserved all the snooping that the NSA did on her. Putting trust in governments that deceive even their own people is a dumb idea.

    1. Re:Germany in the list by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      ... somewhat Merkel deserved all the snooping that the NSA did on her. Putting trust in governments that deceive even their own people is a dumb idea.

      You're assuming Merkel had any idea what her own security services were up to.

    2. Re:Germany in the list by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      What is your average democratically elected political leader supposed to think/do when their nations top crypto experts, security services, generals invite them to use a secure phone?
      Then to read in the worlds press that that their gov tested device is useless?
      Why would generations/groups of trusted, top, expert German staff be signing off on junk encryption projects 100% open to another nation?
      Its Germany their top gov staff should not be that out of their comport zone with advanced telco equipment?
      Its Germany their top gov staff should should have the notion to test and re test any electronic device given their ~100 year history with telco networks, failed crypto, East and West teloc taps.
      Reality for Germany is its top experts went along with a junk encryption project... just this one time... the first time due a privitization directive and budget cuts? Out sourcing?
      The German govs one top telco crypto expert left for the private sector around that time the gov testing unit was understaffed?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  8. Everyone who talks on the phone by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    should start the call with Dirka Dirka Muhhamed Jihad New York. That should keep the Team NSA busy for a while

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  9. Re:Skype? Really? by AHuxley · · Score: 2

    Some closed source US based encryption seems to have 'collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption"
    http://www.theguardian.com/wor... (12 July 2013)

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  10. Re:Skype? Really? by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

    Skype's problem isn't proprietary encryption.
    If you recall, for a very long time, Skype used random clients as nodes to connect calls..
    Microsoft bought Skype and, in 2012, released an update that ended this practice and forced everyone to go through MS controlled nodes.
    Microsoft claimed this was for performance reasons, but everyone with two braincells immediately assumed it was for spying.

    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/07/24/0039205/microsoft-wont-say-if-skype-is-secure-or-not-time-to-change
    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/07/26/2243206/microsoft-makes-skype-easier-to-monitor

    Skype's original design was intentionally restructured to give Microsoft the ability to intercept all communiciations.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  11. Re:So like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    A cartoon on the current New Zealand Prime Minister in the US.

  12. Re:Thanks to M0slms, this is the only way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    So if you have a government more like the East German government, and a secret police service more like the Stasi, as long as it prevents one tragedy, you're fine with it?

    You're fine with allowing the Land of the Free to become the Land of the Surveillance Police State?

    You certainly don't deserve the moniker "Home of the Brave," you fucking coward.

  13. Why, New Zealand, WHY? by Rigel47 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been to NZ.. it's a wonderful place. Beautiful, raw, remarkable in all of its unique features. It's also pretty fucking empty with more sheep than people. There isn't a threat within 5,000 miles unless Australia turns Taliban. The worst thing they need to look out for is Chinese fishing poachers emptying their seas.

    In all seriousness, please, kiwis, tell me why you have a //spy agency//?! Enjoy the wonderful land you live in and leave the stupids to the rest of the world.

    1. Re:Why, New Zealand, WHY? by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      I've been to NZ.. it's a wonderful place. Beautiful, raw, remarkable in all of its unique features. It's also pretty fucking empty with more sheep than people. There isn't a threat within 5,000 miles unless Australia turns Taliban. The worst thing they need to look out for is Chinese fishing poachers emptying their seas.

      In all seriousness, please, kiwis, tell me why you have a //spy agency//?! Enjoy the wonderful land you live in and leave the stupids to the rest of the world.

      ... because they're on an island and have to trade with other countries? Non-military intelligence isn't around just to foil movie-like terrrrist plots, but nobody makes movies about the boring stuff.

    2. Re:Why, New Zealand, WHY? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      NZ was under consideration from 1945 on due to its great code work in ww2 (navy vs Japan). There is not real "UKUSA" one document or event, just a series of top level sigint meetings just after ww2.
      Other to be EU/nations where offered deals for bases only getting unrelated mil hardware as a US/UK thank you. NZ got the full sharing deal, later computer upgrades and was always allowed to look up into Asia, Pacific. Amazing for its own gov/trade/domestic spying needs.
      NZ got tech it could never afford, build, design, buy or even begin to prototype for decades for almost 'free'.
      Australia was at least a bit more smart and listened to the wise words of its ww2 generals - big empires always abandon small nations (Australian early ww2 experiences)
      Australia expanded its human spy networks, own signals listening and funded its mil/science outside US/UK shared methods. NZ kept its human spy side funded but seemed to use UK/UK shared sites in NZ more.
      Reality finally set in over French action in NZ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... . NZ asked for UK, US, Australian help and got a political surprise - no real help in the EU with French phone networks and political leaders. NZ was on its own just as the wise Australian end of ww2 generals had hinted decades ago - shared material can just stop.
      The threat is China trading with Asia on its own optical networks in its own way. For that US shared sites in NZ are vital.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  14. Interesting Skype history: by Burz · · Score: 2

    Dec. 22, 2010: The great Skype blackout
    Feb. 6, 2011: Skype goes online with NSA PRISM spying (6 weeks after blackout)
    October 2011: Microsoft completes Skype acquisition
    July 2012: NSA boasts that "a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism"