Slashdot Mirror
Neanderthals Ate Their Veggies
sciencehabit (1205606) writes Scientists excavating an archaeological site in southern Spain have finally gotten the real poop on Neanderthals, finding that the Caveman Diet for these quintessential carnivores included substantial helpings of vegetables. Using the oldest published samples of human fecal matter, archaeologists have found the first direct evidence that Neanderthals in Europe cooked and ate plants about 50,000 years ago.
Palo diet bro!!!!!!!
I have seen them order the roast duck with the magno salsa.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Omnivores eating things that are edible? I thought extraordinary claims required extraordinary proof.
Look how that worked out for them....
So that explains why they died off!
Go figure. lol
Not sure how much one sample can tell us about the diet of an entire species.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Neanderthals ate their veggies and humans ate their neanderthals.
Humans ~7 000 000 000
Neanderthals EXTINCT
Before people start claiming that this proves that our ancestors ate such-and-such... remember Neanderthals aren't ancestors of modern Homo Sapiens but a different evolutionary branch altogether.
Which isn't to say that their and our common ancestors must have eaten a substantially different diet. Also, apparently there was some cross-breeding between our various ancestral species.
So what was my point again? Never mind.
just ask noam promotion going well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CKpCGjD8wg&list=PL456D453B409DF8D1
For example, it's probably impossible to determine how many hours a week was spent by the average Neanderthal watching NASCAR on TV.
Neanderthals ate their Vegeterian Neanderthal buddies?
What does that tell us about Neanderthals?
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
One thing I'd be curious to find out is whether or not the Neanderthals were doing this because they preferred vegetables, or because they had nothing else around to eat.
You are asking the wrong question. There is no reason to suppose that Neanderthals preferred vegetables, since the conclusion is that they ate both vegetables and meat. I like meat, but I also eat vegetables. I do not eat vegetables because I prefer them to meat. Nor do I eat vegetables because I have nothing else around to eat. I eat vegetables because I like them (and sometimes because they are good for me).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
It was done as a bar bet after of bunch of shepherds were out drinking beer.
Good question, one I guess the paleo environmental folk might be able to shed light on (what species of flora and fauna were in the area). But folk can really like a big steak when they are hungry and equally really enjoy fresh picked fruits on a hot summer's day, there doesn't need to be a conflict on a taste front. From a survival strategy perspective it makes sense to be happy with either hunted or gathered food sources, reduces your risk of starvation. Your tribe's not going to survive that long if you turn your noses up at eating nuts from a nearby grove of hazelnut trees and insist on walking for 8 hours to maybe track down some meat. Enjoying both increases your chances of doing well.
I'm not surprised Neadrathals ate veggies. Look at their teeth. Cooking food though, that's pretty cool.
I've always assumed that if they were hunter gatherers, part of the 'gathering' is likely to be food derived from plants.
If it has teeth like an omnivore, and poops like an omnivore, it's probably a freaking omnivore.
I should think not long after they got fire, they started cooking stuff.
My guess, they collected anything they knew they could eat, and ate it.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I will be publishing my own fecal matter soon. Pre-order yours today!
What is so direct about this evidence?
It still sounds like indirect evidence to me. Is "direct evidence" a precisely defined term in this context?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "weaker". I don't think that experiments are going to tell us much at all about what neanderthals ate, so in this case observation would seem to have the edge.
Is there such a thing as "observational" and "experimental" science though? I see a lot of experimental work behind observational studies, and a lot of observations behind lab experiments.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
It's not just that they ate veggies, they cooked them. Was there any other animal which we know that cooked its own food besides us?
Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
Great...so even Neanderthals ate their veggies...and yet we struggle getting our kids to eat anything green.
I think he was differentiating because you can not create an experiment that would be neanderthals living in a population so that you could observe and see the results. He was saying with this idea, all you can do is look for things left behind and observe.
Math is the only pure (experamental) science.
humans ate their neanderthals.
Only in the "Little Red Riding Hood" fairy tale sense where "eating" is a metaphor for sex. Cro-mags and Neanderthals are believed to have been different breeds of one species, which interbred to form modern man.
I think he was differentiating because you can not create an experiment that would be neanderthals living in a population so that you could observe and see the results. He was saying with this idea, all you can do is look for things left behind and observe.
Bingo
Did you even read the article?
The predominance of coprostanol and a near absence of 5-stigmastanol among our samples indicate that the Neanderthals from El Salt had a meat-dominated diet.
Please tell us more about how samples indicating a dominance of meat and flesh are indicative of an "omnivorous diet". Looks like Slashdot will mod anyone up these days, even if it's painfully obvious they didn't read the paid-advert *cough* I mean article.
In my experience you tend to crave what you habitually eat. The Hmong forage for Solanum nigrum -- black nightshade -- a plant that is not only inedibly bitter for most people, it's actually poisonous if you haven't spent years working up a tolerance to its toxic alkaloids. And here's the kicker: black nightshade grows wild here in the US and the old folks here go looking for it in the woods, even though they can buy meat and non-toxic vegetables in the supermarket. They grew up with the stuff, so they crave it.
The single most powerful feature our species has is behavioral flexibility. The same plant that is a side dish providing auxiliary nutrients today could be famine food tomorrow if the hunt doesn't go well. If a plant is nutritious and abundant in the environment, I'd expect local humans to eat it with enjoyment.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You get your food from a grocery store, where everything is plentiful.
Thus your anecdote has no bearing on the question.
Go camping for a week without food, and have to scavenge for yourself. See what you 'prefer'.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Species means you cannot have fertile interbreeding. But we could and did interbreed. Up to 5% of European and Asian genes are neadertal.
As discoveries accumlate it looks more and more like neadertal did most of same cultural things as homo double-sapiens: composite tools, fire, language, art, clothing, etc. The degree of culture may have been different.
It also appears neadertal had larger and more complex brains than double-sapiens.
OK, sure, from the fine article, which apparently you didn't read:
Ergo, omnivorous diet.
From the second article, in the conclusions section:
So, the paper is saying that, it would appear that they ate vegetables.
Post something intelligent under your own account, and you too can be modded up.
Otherwise, STFU.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I already know the answer to this: room service.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
If you "go camping for a week", you are probably going to be eating berries and mushrooms, with possibly a fish.
You probably are not going to be eating fresh elk.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
It does not matter. There is no reason to suppose that Neanderthals preferred vegetables, nor that they preferred meat, since they ate both. While it is possible, probably even likely, that their diet consisted primarily of whatever they could find that was edible, it is unlikely that they chose vegetables ONLY because that was all they could get or because they preferred them to meat.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
That's kind of my point.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
It's simple. If they didn't eat their veggies, they wouldn't get any dessert.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Did half the country take a "Hmong Cultures" class a couple years ago? I must have missed it. During the past two years or so, I have seen several references to the Hmong people, with no explanation of who they are. If I mentioned "the plight of the Nukak", I would certainly have to include a reference to their location and what their plight is.
Am I the only one here that only knows the Hmong because of repeated googling about them?
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Go camping for a week without food, and have to scavenge for yourself.
Scavenge? Most of the people here are Americans. We don't carry around these huge quantities of belly-fat for nothing. Sure, you laugh at us now, but just wait until we're in a survival situation and the rest of you start dropping like flies. ;)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I have been calling certain sorts "Coprophage" for years. Not one has yet understood the term.
I was not popular in school
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Did half the country take a "Hmong Cultures" class a couple years ago?
In a manner of speaking.....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Meanwhile, vegged out Neanderthal "Stone-agers" were confused by yucky veggies and just ate their poop.
The original "Hole Foods" was born.
That explains a lot. I never saw that movie, but I'm sure many here did.
Thanks for the reply. :^)
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
OK. I thought you were going for the "alpha male eats freshly killed flesh" angle.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Unless there's running involved. Or climbing. Or anything physical.
I don't need to outrun the bear, I need to outrun you.
And if it comes to it, the fattest guy will feed more people.
So, the survival strategy is to make sure you're around at least 2 people who are fatter than you. That's what I do.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I don't go into the woods without my 1911, so best of luck trying to turn me into your meal. :)
Also, I run marathons, and do 15-20mi cross country hikes.....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
There's also mutations where one group can handle a poisonous plant or often fungus that will sicken or kill another group. We see this with milk where Europeans often have a mutation allowing to digest milk and other groups don't. Really the ideal diet varies on sub-type of human and what was available in their ancestral homes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
LOL, well, you did say "we" in regards to all of that belly fat.
Which means, at least implicitly, you were in the category of people who wouldn't do so well in a survival situation.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
biodegradable my ass!
Please tell us more about how samples indicating a dominance of meat and flesh are indicative of an "omnivorous diet".
Not enough samples. Their diet was probably highly seasonal, with not too much plant matter in the winter.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Only someone who knew nothing at all on the subject would have thought they were carnivores. No apes are carnivores!
The interesting parts of the article didnt make it into the headline. As usual.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I was mostly just going for the cheap shot at my fellow countrymen.
Truth be told, food is really your last priority in a survival situation. An unconditioned person can easily go two or three weeks without food. Someone starting out with a better fitness base could go longer. Your priorities are shelter and water first, in that order. Realistically speaking, unless you're in Alaska, there aren't too many places in the United States where you can get far enough away from civilization for starvation to be a factor before you can find civilization.
I carry water purification tablets on my hikes, in the "just in case" category, (i.e., I'm stranded and run out of bottled water) but I don't bother with food beyond what I need for the day hike.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Some of us are old enough to remember the Vietnam war, which in turn brought us in contact with the long running civil war in Laos. Anti-communist Hmong from Laos fought alongside Americans and after both Vietnam and Laos fell to the Communists many Hmong refugees were resettled here in the US along with their families.
I remember this story about S. nigrum from a newspaper account back in the 80s about foraging by local Hmong refugees. There were lots of stories about Hmong settling in, and because this was pre WWW you read them because you read pretty much everything in the paper that was even vaguely interesting.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Well, now, I'm an ameteur, but isn't the assumption that brain development required to be a higher mammal requires gigantic amounts of protein intake?
I didnt see the movie the other poster mentioned, but I know the Hmong nonetheless. If you are older you might remember them as the 'Montagnards' or mountain men who allied with the US in Vietnam. Quite a few made it out and settled in the US at the end.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
It does require some protein but that does not require exclusive or even preferential meat eating. Apes typically supplement a primarily fruit and veggie diet with various types of easy to acquire "meat" - insects of various types, termites in particular, are commonly consumed for supplemental protein. Larger animals are killed by Apes very rarely, and consumption of the corpses is even rarer, not entirely unheard of but certainly not part of the normal diet.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Thank you for the additional information. I'm not old enough to remember Vietnam. I was born during it, in 1970.
I knew a lot of "Vietnamese" moved to the US after the war, but that was how they were always mentioned. As far as I remember, I never saw the term 'Hmong' until a couple years ago.
Also, since I grew up in the upper midwest farm country, our local paper certainly didn't have stories like that one. I remember finding an old copy of one a little while ago (probably at my mom's house), and was surprised that the front section was only 8 pages. The sports and culture/classifieds/comics sections were only 6 pages each.
Anyhow, thanks again for the post.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Not really. While you can go for a long time on sub replacement calories, you do need something. The vast majority of people will start going major league ketogenic, then hallucinate after about 48 hours. Try it sometime. If you're trying to 'survive' - and by that I mean you are in a dangerous situation that requires physical and mental effort to stay alive, starving isn't the best way to ensure survival.
That said, as soon as the TV and Twitter shut down, the majority of the US populace will be frozen in place, catatonic and confused. Easy pickings for the Zombies.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I've done week long water fasts without hallucinations. The scientific literature is filled with examples of people surviving 30+ day long hunger strikes with nothing more than water. I'd concur that it's far from optimal, but securing a source of food is the last item on the survival checklist for a reason. Shelter and water are far more important. Next in line is fire. I'd really like to know where you can get lost in CONUS (particularly east of the Mississippi) where starvation is going to become a factor before you are rescued or can find civilization.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I thought the assumption was that had apes learned to fish as humans did, they would have evolved brains like ours.
I dont know where you got that but I have studied human evolution a bit and dont recall ever seeing such an assertion. Humans are adaptable and certain groups are very good fishermen, but there is no evidence I am aware of that fishing was ever more than a minority lifeway, or a supplemental skill. There was a time when significant human expansions occurred through a 'beach-comber' style of gathering, but that was MUCH too recent to have had anything to do with the evolution of the brain, which was already done long before.
And the other apes HAVE evolved brains very much like ours, btw. Far more like ours than like anything else.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Think about it seriously, please. Vegetables don't run very fast and the majority of vegetables don't have claws or sharp bitey things. Vegetables may lack a few aminos that a big brained omnivore needs, but are a more efficient subsistence food source from a hunter-gathering standpoint..
Is that what the cool kids are saying now? "Mom, I'm going to go publish for a while, don't worry, I'll spray some Glade"
Footnote: A quick perusal of Amazon's self-published material indicates the likely answer is yes...
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Seems to be on even slimmer psudeo-scientific ground.
Once again science just proving the accuracy of Genesis :)
Europeans are not any more violent if you know your history (or read today's newspapers). What might be different is that Europeans have been more *organized* and invented more *technology* and therefore have done a much better job carrying out the violent tendencies that exist in all humans.
Vast majority of people hallucinate after a 48 hour fast? Citation needed.
That's primarily because a week isn't long enough to develop the hunting skills necessary to catch an elk (or deer). It doesn't really have any indication of what you'd eat of your spent your life under those circumstances.
This clearly demonstrates that a subspecies of Homo sapiens; H. sapiens neandertalensis had after all the same feeding habits than the rest of the Homo sapiens species!! Amazing. Who would have told?
Another spectacular finding for the team of Dr. El Obvio, preferred disciple of Prof. O'Bvious.
Hail to them!!!
-- 29A the number of the Beast