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Tesla Aims For $30,000 Price, 2017 Launch For Model E
An anonymous reader writes The biggest complaint about Tesla Motors' electric vehicles is that they're far too expensive for the average motorist. The Roadster sold for $109,000, and the Model S for $70,000. Chris Porritt, the company's VP of engineering, says their next model will aim for much broader availability. The compact Model E aims to be competitive with the Audi A4 and BMW 3-series, which both start in the low $30,000 range. To reduce cost, the Model E won't be built mostly with aluminum, like the Model S, and it will be roughly 20% smaller as well. The construction of the "Gigafactory" for battery production will also go a long way toward reducing the price. Their goal for launch is sometime around late 2016 or early 2017
Musk has mentioned in the past a range of around 200 miles.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm pretty jealous of American billionaires who *do* things. Our billionaires mostly do things like wearing clown noses in space or union-busting convenience stores.
With our hydro electric resources, we should be pioneering electric cars.
But no, *doing* things is not in our culture. Corruption, incompetence and thinking small, that's Quebec.
He's planning on a big exit in 15 years or so. To Mars.
Elon said at the last shareholder meeting that Ford wouldn't let them use the Model E name as they already have a trademark on it therefore "Ford is killing SEX"
http://youtu.be/VvWDBnhe588
What will it be called? Thatâ(TM)s something we think itâ(TM)s impossible to say at the current time, but weâ(TM)d be keen to hear your nominations for suitable names nonetheless.
Since nobody outside of Tesla has a clue what this car will be called, "Model E" is better than nothing.
People will like the smaller car and lower price,but if it doesn't have the range... they will not flock to it...
A lot of families have more than one car. You could have a large, gasoline powered car to go visit Aunt Mabel or on a camping trip in the Grand Canyon, and a smaller electric car for commuting, runs to the supermarket, etc. The hope is that eventually electric vehicles will have the range, rapid recharge rate, and charging infrastructure that they can compete with and replace gas engines; in the meantime the technology may already be mature enough to compete in particular niches. The nature of disruptive technology is that it initially plays to its strengths and gets a foothold in a market where conventional technology does not perform as well, and as it improves it eventually moves in and takes over from the conventional technology.
That being said, we are a long way away from a fleet that is all-electric or even substantially electric. It's growing rapidly compared to where it was a few years ago (basically, no electric cars), but it's still a tiny segment of the automobile market. According to Wikipedia, .62% of all cars sold in 2013 were electric. Even if that were a much higher figure- say, one-third of all cars sold each year- the average car is around 10 years old. So assume we replace ten percent of the fleet every year, then it would take years to reach a fleet that was one-third electric. Internal combustion engines are not going to go away any time soon. Tesla's stock price is soaring but GM, Ford, and Chevrolet still sell a lot more internal combustion engines than Tesla sells electrics.
Or you could rent a car for the few times year you need to travel more than 200 miles. Some people almost never travel that far. Some people go that far every weekend.
I've always wondered how big of a generator you would need to keep an electric car running continuously, and whether it would be feasible to just tow it behind you on a trailer. Maybe make those available to rent so that people can make long trips on their electric car. It would probably be cheaper to rent than an actual car, and the money you'd save from using an electric car for most of the year would easily offset the cost of renting the generator once in a while.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Aluminum is as cheap as steel if you make very many vehicles, because of various advantages in the production process. It's also cheaper to recycle than steel, which in addition to its many other advantages is a big reason why the industry is headed in that direction. Ford is even going Aluminum for the F-150, and other models are likely to follow as they have become pretty well bloated and bringing the weight down is mandatory for meeting future mileage targets.
If they plan to make many cars, then Aluminum should not really make the car cost more, especially starting from a blank sheet. And it really is a superior material in every way except repairability, and who repairs cars with any notable damage any more anyway? They just get written off and broken down for parts.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Or you could rent a car for the few times year you need to travel more than 200 miles. Some people almost never travel that far. Some people go that far every weekend.
From discussing this very solution, it seems people (At least american flesh-people) are very opposed to the notion of renting a car for the purpose of driving long-distances, or carrying large things around or just about anything.
Instead, most insists on having a vehicle that can solve every imaginable situation, even if most of these situations come up once yearly (or even not-at-all).
The recognition of how long it would take to replace the current driving stock versus Tesla's manufacturing capacity was one of the reasons for opening up their patents.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
People will like the smaller car and lower price,but if it doesn't have the range... they will not flock to it...
And cargo capacity, don't forget that. This is why I always drive a Peterbilt. First, it's crucial that I can drive 3000 miles with no load, because I reckon some day I might need to drive all the way across the country without stopping.
A semi in that case is handy because I can fill up the back with energy drinks to keep me awake, and a portacabin so I don't have to waste valuable time finding a restroom at a stop.
But the cargo is what's really important. I once thought I would have to move house. It turns out I didn't in the end, but the thought of the panic I would have undergone had I not owned a semi made it all the more worthwhile!
Oh and it's a vocational model on the off chance I might need to move house to somewhere without a paved road.
Honestly, until I see them building small "cars" with this kind of cargo capacity I just don't see people flocking to them.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I've always wondered how big of a generator you would need to keep an electric car running continuously, and whether it would be feasible to just tow it behind you on a trailer. Maybe make those available to rent so that people can make long trips on their electric car. It would probably be cheaper to rent than an actual car, and the money you'd save from using an electric car for most of the year would easily offset the cost of renting the generator once in a while.
It might be cheaper, but for now certainly the cars would have an big advantage due to economies of scale. You'd also have to haul around the battery back, electric motor and engine (though it only just needs to be large enough to top up at highway speeds, not accelerate), and all on a relatively high drag trailer.
Also, since you're travelling a long distance, I'd assume there's mostly highway cruising, which means one of the other electric car benefits, regenerative breaking, would not be an enormous benefit, unlike for city driving.
The other thing of course for renting is you get to choose a different sized model if you wish as well, e.g. more luggage space or just plain old more space for sitting in on a long journey.
TL;DR I'd could work, but I'm not sure it would be worthwhile.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You nailed it. My neighbor drives a big dodge pickup with a hemi. Drives it 60 miles every day to work round trip. Gets 15 mpg tops. Bitches constantly about the price of gas. Why not drive a commuter car with double the gas mileage and save $2k a year? Because once a year he hauls his boat to the lake and once a year he hauls it back. (Honestly I think he just likes driving a big ass truck, and the boat is an excuse.)
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
If they go with steel instead of aluminum that'll probably cost them about 10% range (matters less for big structural elements, but overall it has a significant weight difference), which means more batteries. Seems weird that this would work out to be overall more economical.
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
That's an interesting opinion, considering the planned revealing is at the Detroit auto show in 2015.
I'm puzzled... Where did you see the E? It's not in either of TFAs and a cursory Google search provides no results either.
I disagree. Most people don't have a car that can move furniture or large appliances. They just pay to rent a vehicle for those occasions. I find it odd that they don't apply the same logic to EVs. No car solves every imaginable situation. A good furniture mover's not likely to be an affordable commuter. Both will likely suck on the track. All three of those will likely suck off road. Etc. Vehicles come in radically different varieties for precisely that reason.
Actually, my preferred solution for EV range is like the AC Propulsion Long-Hauler trailer - a small self-steering (aka, easy to drive) genset trailer. You could own one, rent one, borrow one, have a group of friends/neighbors that share one, whatever. You've got range when you need it, and are otherwise you're pure electric and not having to haul around an engine that you don't use and which takes up space and weight in your vehicle (aka, PHEV).
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
That's certainly possible, yes. It's sometimes called a "series hybrid". While conventional "parallel" hybrids have both gas and electric engines connected to the drivetrain, in a series hybrid the drivetrain is 100% electric, but there's also a gas generator that feeds into the electric system when needed.
Whether you should call that en electric vehicle or not seems to depend on what proportion of the energy is expected to ultimately come from gas vs. wall charge. If most of the energy comes from gas, then it's just a different configuration of hybrid vehicle. Diesel trains work that way, for example (electric drivetrains powered by a diesel generator), and are not considered electric trains. On the other hand, if it runs mostly electric and there is a tank just used for occasional range-extension, those are being marketed as "extended-range electrical vehicles".
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The main problem with all electric cars, so far, is needing to have a personal garage to park it in to recharge. If I live in apartment, I can't charge it. If the garage of my single family home is otherwise taken up with 'stuff', I can't plug it in.
Eventually that issue will change. But for today, how can I buy an all electric if I have no where to plug it in?
Even if it were sold for $300, I still cannot plug it in!
So... is there going to be a compact Model LC for the sub-30K$ market? A car for the majority of drivers?
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I looked it up the chevy volt gets about 38 miles electric and about 380 mile on a full charge and a full tank of gas... I'd probably just go over the electric range by a few miles everyday which is fine if it got 60 miles electric I'd have to make sure I used the gas engine occasional to make sure it didn't have problems.
Many vehicles are subsidized. For instance, one reason there were so many Hummers on the road were because of the tax rules that applied to the purchase for business use. While passenger vehicles are depreciated at a normal rate, something like a Hummer can be depreciated much more quickly. And while something like and F350 is clearly a utilitarian vehicle, a Hummer is simply a loophole to have the taxpayer fund your luxury vehicle.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The question is not whether you "can", it's what it costs and what constraints it imposes. It's possible to make an EV that goes a good chunk of a thousand miles, it'd just be a totally impractical absurdly-expensive monstrosity.
No question that batteries are advancing - usually a gravimetric energy density doubling every 8 years or so. But the trend for volumetric isn't as impressive, and the price changes per watt hour are far less predictable. Sometimes the next generation which improves your battery stats is more expensive than the previous one. Sometimes it's cheaper. Overall the trend is negative, but it's very bumpy and not as fast.
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
Can I borrow your time machine please?
So... is there going to be a compact Model LC for the sub-30K$ market? A car for the majority of drivers?
I'm sure they are. They started with the premium sedan Model S, then next is the Model X SUV, then this 30k Model E. The trend is definitely towards more affordable vehicles. You just need to establish yourself as a solid manufacturer first with high-profit sales. The success of the 70k+ Model S has helped to fund the factory to allow them to build the cheaper models to come.
It just takes some time.
If you are on a long trip, you are usually passing filling stations: very few people do 200 miles entirely on back roads. And good safety means that you should take a break about every 150 miles or so. So, as soon as filling stations do electrical recharge, the problem goes away for drivers not trying to keep going avery minute of the day. The problem is always chicken-and-egg: until people have the cars, the charging station will not exist.
In the Chicagoland area, they have a number of oasis situated on the expressway that have food, restrooms, gas. I imagine if the tollway authority added charging stations to the parking area, you would see an uptick in adoption. I know other metropolitan areas have the same type of setups; a few strategically place charging stations could start turning the tide.
I love the sound of distortion in the morning -- webcommando
The BMW i3 already does this. Its got a 66HP 0.4L generator that operates as a true series hybrid. The 1.9 gallon tank gives you an additional ~92 miles of range.
You can fill your car in 5 minutes and go another 600KM. You can battery swap a Model S in 90 seconds and go another 500KM. Or you can wait 20 minutes and get a supercharge that will get you 250KM for zero cost.
Seems like the electric car not only meets your expectations, but rather exceeds them.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Why does everyone assume gull-wing doors are somehow particularly bad at this?
Here's a video of a guy opening one next to some truck or a wall. If it does require any more space than a regular door, it's not significantly so, but I doubt even that is the case. Remember that a door is maybe 10-15 cm thick, so that's the minimum you'll need to have for a single mm of clearance with a regular door, not to mention all the inches for your fat ass.
For folks who want an electric now, the Chevy Volt is basically one for about 40 miles and then it switches over to gas for longer trips. It's a little small for some folks but being a hatchback, you can actually carry quite a bit of stuff provided you are not carrying passengers and price wise it's actually pretty close to $30K as well. I've owned mine for the last 2 years and it's turned out to be a much better car than I even thought.
I just did the calculation for myself, and compared to my $15k 40mpg Hyundai, and given the amount of gas I go through on a weekly basis, if I pay sticker price for the model E it will be just about at the break even point. Any subsidy is just gravy. My current car is only 2 years old, so I won't be in the market for a while, but I'll definitely take a long hard look at a Tesla when I am.
Don't forget to factor in maintenance where the all electric vehicle will be cheaper. The estimated cost for 4 years of maintenance on a Tesla S is $1900. Compare that to $3316 for the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid and $3417 for the regular Hyundai Sonata. Maintenance costs for the Hyundais are from cars.com's "Cost of Ownership" page for each model. Maintenance costs for the Tesla are from Tesla motors. For more equitable "levels" of cars, the Hyundai Equus has a 4 year maintenance cost exceeding $6000.
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
Range anxiety is common - nearly everyone has it. We went from 2 gas to 2 electric only cars and we had it for a while at the start too. Eventually you know exactly what you can and can't do in the car, just like how you know how your ICE performs accelerating and handling on different roads and how far/long you can go on a tank of gas. It is amazing how quickly you stop caring about range when you buy a car that meets your 99% case. Our leaf gets ~75mi in our area/climate on an 80% charge. You get home and you just plug it in, so that means a comfortable 60mi a day without even blinking. 20mi to work and back (and if there is busy traffic it burns *less* energy to crawl) and there is plenty to pick up kids, do some errands, go out to eat, and plug in at home.
In those rare days when I need more, there are chargers close to work I can plug in for a couple hours while I work, there are free L2 chargers at city hall (near grocery stores, restaurants, shops), and other chargers spread around. 8 months in and I've only used this option once...and then it was just to test and make sure my charge cards were working.
I think what the industry needs most is a ParkAndBorrow model. Drive your car in and park it, rent an electric for a week for a low rate, return it and drive your car home. Even a trickle charge on a leaf gets you from 0 to 80% over night (10hrs?) so you don't even need special charge hardware for the common case test.
Battery power grows about 5% every 5 years. maybe.
You are off by an order of magnitude for battery power.
Right now using the latest battery power the tesla S might get an additional 10% range. maybe if you are lucky and careful.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Actually, it takes a long, long time to get your Model S battery swapped.
Since none of the battery swap stations are actually open, you'll have to sit there and twiddle your thumbs till they finish building it.
You don't need as many supercharger stations, though, because they're not a direct replacement for gas stations. Mainly, the expectation is that you will charge your electric car at home overnight, starting each day with a full charge. Public charging stations, then, are only required if you will be driving a great distance.
Gas stations, on the other hand, are effectively the only way to refuel your gas car, so there needs to be a larger number of them.
If you get enough supercharger/swap stations to cover any likely long distance routes, electrics end up more convenient, because you'll always start each day charged and never need to stop anywhere during daily commuting and use.
A bigger portion with aluminum is the stamping / machining / welding / inspection / prep & paint steps are all massively more expensive. Aluminum parts have higher manufacturing fail rates and you run the machinery way slower because the metal is more sensitive.
They might be able to go with aluminum skin and select non-structural parts with a steel body. Several Japanese and a few European luxury cars use this technique. The Infinity G / Q series uses aluminum hoods (and skin?) with steel bodies for example. Structural aluminum is just pricey and difficult to work. From a material science / engineering standpoint, aluminum always fatigues to failure by definition; so designing, building, and validating aluminum parts takes a lot more time and expense.
I love trucks, but I f***ing hate all the guys who drive one for status or compensation. I would never daily drive a truck for commuting (long term). It's a working class tool that should look well utilized. If you like trucks for show, get one for show and drive a midsize car for commuting. You can pay for it with the gas savings.
At least the sports car guys can claim to actually drive their cars in the intended fashion on a regular basis, and put money back into society with speeding tickets. Maybe we need a fine for driving down a highway every day with an empty truck bed.