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Climate Change Skeptic Group Must Pay Damages To UVA, Michael Mann

ideonexus (1257332) writes In January of 2014, the American Traditions Institute (ATI) sought climate scientist Micheal Mann's emails from his time at the University of Virginia, a request that was denied in the courts. Now the Virginia Supreme Court has upheld a lower court ruling that ATI must pay damages for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully.

73 of 497 comments (clear)

  1. Just an observation . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But it seems that the only way to get emails and not get sued is to, How shall we say, Hack in.

    1. Re:Just an observation . . . by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not if you're the Russian intelligence services, the prime suspect behind the hack. Anyone want to bet that this was part of the same initiative that brought us the more recent scandals of Russian state funding for European anti-fracking groups and American lobbying against LNG export approval?

      Whatever it takes to keep your main market open, dependent, and buying your main exports in vast quantities, I suppose.

      --
      Fox: "I think we should call it... your grave!" Cast: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
    2. Re:Just an observation . . . by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      You don't think like a lawyer. The way to get emails is discovery.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:Just an observation . . . by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2

      Would you rather have all of your email history made freely available to anyone who asks for it? I wouldn't.

  2. That is not how conspiracy theories work. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Evidence against them only makes them stronger.

    1. Re:That is not how conspiracy theories work. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Evidence against them? What evidence against them?

      (Conspiracy groups either ignore evidence against them or claim it is part of the conspiracy.)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:That is not how conspiracy theories work. by BergZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. Mann's work, just like every other scientist on the planet, should be judged on the basis of what he has published.
      We all know why ATI wanted access to Mann's emails: So that they could cherry-pick some juicy out of context quote to smear Mann with.

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    3. Re:That is not how conspiracy theories work. by tbannist · · Score: 2

      The guy should have just opened up his email voluntarily. He could then remove anything personal, which I'm guessing is his primary concern.

      If he had removed anything they'd just claim that the removed emails contain the evidence that they were looking for, and more people would be inclined to believe them because they now have evidence that he's hiding something. Frankly, I suspect even if he opened up his email voluntarily and didn't remove anything personal they'd claim that obviously he'd already hidden the evidence they were looking for. Witch hunts don't end just because you're co-operating with your would-be executioners.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    4. Re:That is not how conspiracy theories work. by BergZ · · Score: 2

      There were at least 5 independent investigations launched as a result of Climategate and none of them found any evidence of scientific malpractice. That is to say the emails didn't reveal anything about Climatology that isn't happening in every other branch of scientific research.

      Say, but on the topic of scientific malpractice: Did you hear what happened to the climate change "skeptic" journal Pattern Recognition in Physics?
      The nepotism and scientific malpractice became so rampant that the publisher actually had to shut the whole thing down (it was becoming an embarrassment)!

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    5. Re:That is not how conspiracy theories work. by BergZ · · Score: 2

      "If what occurred at CRU is within normal bounds of science then science is in a sad state of affairs."

      I've heard reports that the number of scientific papers being retracted is rising in all fields of study, so I have to ask:
      How do you know that what occurred at the CRU is not "within normal bounds of science"? You can't actually know that unless we can read the work related emails of all scientists in all fields of study to objectively compare them... and that's where a sincere argument for greater scientific transparency begins:
      A sincere argument for greater scientific transparency starts with new rules that apply generally to all scientists in all fields of study regardless of who pays for their research (public or private funding). That's how you raise the bar for scrutiny when you genuinely care about the quality of science.

      The American Traditions Institute is not genuinely interested in greater scientific transparency, they're just interested in casting doubt on a specific scientist (and his specific field of study) because they have deemed his research "heresy" to their politics.

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  3. Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by ideonexus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems to me that the Climate Skeptics are making the same mistake the anti-eugenics movement made in 1925 with the Scopes Monkey Trial, which fought the teaching of evolution in schools. Most people don't know this, but the anti-evolution activists were horrified by the textbook's use of Evolution to justify Eugenics, but instead of attacking the public policy proposals of the Eugenics Movement, they attacked the science of Evolution, and history remembers them as buffoons for combating the scientific consensus.

    Today, Climate Skeptics are fighting the scientific consensus instead of debating the policies being proposed from that consensus. I myself am an adaptationist, I don't care if we do anything about Global Warming for another 20-30 years and at that point I have faith that civilization will start to engineer its way out of the problem... however, I find myself on the side of the environmentalists with their oftentimes draconian public-policy initiatives because I believe in scientific literacy, and the anti-science positions of today's Climate Skeptics threaten to undo the scientific progress on which our civilization depends for its survival.

    --
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    1. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by scotts13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...I don't care if we do anything about Global Warming for another 20-30 years and at that point I have faith that civilization will start to engineer its way out of the problem...

      "We'll invent something to fix this when the time comes" is not a sound policy, or a policy at all. It's wishful thinking. What if we don't?

    2. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, but your assessment of their position is wrong.
      They hate liberals, and feel that liberals lie to them. So they are assuming they are lieing in regards to climate change.
      Unfortunately They're right, the left is so wound up about the topic they are spewing lies and misinformation regularly.
      Al Gore made that awful movie. It was probably the single biggest determent to the issue of climate change that's ever happened. It hyper polarized the issue, put the biggest leftest in the country at the head of it almost immediately and pretty much guaranteed that nothing would be done for well over a decade.

      All of this makes it very easy for conservatives to lie to them as well. Oh look, Al Gore lied about X... The entire climate change thing is therefor a lie. It's a logical fallacy but it makes intuitive sense. We need to figure out a way to turn this on its head and turn it into something conservatives can get behind as some sort of anti-liberal thing. I'm not sure how to do that yet but I think hard about it every day.

    3. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      We will. That has happened repeatedly in the past. It is no more logical for us to worry about humanity in 100 years than it would have been for people in 1900 to worry about us today.

      Think of how much has been invented -- yet they would have been concerned about horse poop buildup and poop dust all over everything. 'Let's limit use of horses!" slowing the economy and leaving us with, say, 1980 level tech, "helping" absolutely no one.

      So, to people 100 years from now. What did we do? Keep a powerful economy so you can have flying cars and autodocs, or weaken and hobble is so you don't?

      We are the people in 1900 looking to hobble ourselves to "help" those way off in the future...of 2014.

      Thanks for the "help".

      --
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    4. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ain't going to happen, sadly. As the temperate zone moves closer to the world's poles, and the regions we're currently growing cereal crops on become progressively more arid, there is simply less area of land (square miles or kilometres or however you want to measure it) on which crops can be grown - and that's ignoring the costs of clearing and draining that land, and all the effects of ecocide.

      At the same time as this is happening, of course, all our critical infrastructure will become unusable unless we make huge new investments in flood walls. For example, I work for a major international bank, which, obviously, has its critical data infrastructure replicated in seven cities across the globe. Only one problem: in six of those seven cities, our data centres are within ten metres of current sea level. Most major financial centres are old port cities, and all old port cities are on the coast. So over the next fifty years we have to either all relocate our trading infrastructure, or else abandon it. What I expect will happen is that we'll delay and dawdle until it's too late, and then our whole civilisation will collapse under the combined pressures of hunger, refugees, and rising water levels.

      We're already past the point where there's any hope of the planet being able to support even half its current population in 100 years time. The real policy question is how we now radically reduce the population without war, pestilence, famine and death.

      --
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    5. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by BergZ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Creationists blame Christopher Hitchens for "polarizing the Evolution debate"... and I do not accept their argument.
      The Creationists are wrong about that because:
      (1) Hitchens (like Gore) is not a scientist. You can not draw any conclusions about the validity of a scientific theory on the basis of the statements of non-scientists.
      (2) It doesn't matter how Hitchens said what he said. We are all responsible for deciding what we believe. Responsible people ignore the polarization and examine the arguments logically. Idiots blame their dismissal of science on "the other guy" for not being nice.

      If I wouldn't accept the "that guy polarized the debate" argument from Creationists; why would I accept it from you?

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    6. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by sycodon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just off the first page of a Google search.

      Hurricanes will increase in number and intensity.

      Tornadoes will increase in number and intensity.

      New York will be under water.

        Britain will never see snow again.

      Record low Hurricanes, Tornadoes, New York still hasn't flooded, and Britain just had record snowfall this last winter.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    7. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      So by "the left" you meant "tabloid newspapers"?

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    8. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by bunratty · · Score: 2

      Those are predictions about the future, as noted by the future tense form "will X". Think about what you would need to do so show those statements are misinformation. You don't have a crystal ball, do you? Even if you do are could conclusively show the predictions are inaccurate, that still doesn't demonstrate willful dissent of misinformation, just someone making an incorrect prediction.

      Again, could you give some misinformation that is regularly spewed by the left about climate change?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    9. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by bunratty · · Score: 2

      No, I'm not being thick. I was expecting actual misinformation such as "volcanoes produce more carbon dioxide than fossil fuels", "Antarctic ice is not melting", "the planet's temperature is not increasing", "the warming is due to increased solar output" and so on. If you ask me, the misinformation is coming from the other side, you know, the one that doesn't have actual evidence on their side so they need to fabricate it.

      As for your "short period of time" claim, I did not see a date in the first article you posted, and it also provides no time frame for when the prediction holds. How you could consider that to be a prediction already proved incorrect, much less misinformation, is beyond me.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    10. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      Scientific consensus was never that the world was flat. They laughed at Columbus because he was counting on the planet being smaller than any educated person knew it was.

      For the rest, you're talking about theories about observations, not the observations. Global warming has been observed in many ways. I don't think the vast majority of scientists have ever been that wrong about observed fact, although obviously they've often been at least somewhat wrong on the theory.

      --
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    11. Re:Modern Day Anti-Evolutionists by bunratty · · Score: 2

      What predictions would those be? I've seen the temperature rise, the sea levels rise, and ice in the Arctic, the Antarctic, and Greenland melt. Those were all predicted before they occurred.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  4. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Rei · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Plot idea: 97% of the world's scientists contrive an environmental crisis, but are exposed by a plucky band of billionaires & oil companies." -- Scott Westerfeld

    --
    Fox: "I think we should call it... your grave!" Cast: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
  5. If UVA and Mann have nothing to hide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why not just release the emails and shut this group up? It seems like they are going to great lengths to hide something.

    1. Re:If UVA and Mann have nothing to hide by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 3, Funny

      Like you then, Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Anonymous coward?

      What have you got to hide then?
      do you like to wear women's clothing and chop down trees? (Monty Python link deliberate)

      From the
      Can we see those incriminating emails that might be about something totally irrelevant but we need to see them anyway...
      Department.

      --
      I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
    2. Re:If UVA and Mann have nothing to hide by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Beyond the "you shouldn't be forced to reveal private matters or be assumed guilty?" Then how about because nothing shuts up groups like this. Say he releases his e-mails and there is nothing incriminating in there. They will find one passage which, if taken out of context, will "prove" their point. Then they'll tout this out-of-content statement all over the place. Sure, some people will see the truth, but many more will believe the lie instead.

      To put it another way, I suspect you of committing illegal acts. Send me all of your e-mail correspondence for the last 10 years. I'll pour through that and see if anything looks wrong. If you typed "I hope we don't get caught" in the context of throwing someone a surprise birthday party and sneaking the gifts past them, I'll take that line and use it to show how you're really a shady criminal conspiring to avoid capture for your crimes. I await you sending me all of your e-mails so I can use them against you in any way I see fit.

      --
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  6. Careful what you wish for by sideslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As far as I can tell, this lawsuit determined that the Freedom of Information Act can't be used to get access to some official email correspondence paid for by public funds. Even if you are really gung-ho on AGW, that's not a result to automatically crow about.

    Michael Mann is not my favorite scientist, as he has a pattern of cargo cultist behavior that has annoyed his peers (provoking words like "vomit" and "crock of s**t"). The lawsuit to watch is the one where Mann is suing the National Review (a conservative magazine) and Mark Steyn, a conservative satirist and commentator. Whether or not his overall beliefs about AGW are justified, Professor Mann does have skeletons in his closet, and if the court does its job properly, he will be smacked down hard.

    1. Re:Careful what you wish for by thaylin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like how you condemned him without evidence of those "skeletons". If the court does its job properly they will weigh the evidence and not just smack him down because you want them to.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    2. Re:Careful what you wish for by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The FOI doesn't allow you to sue someone for access to their records soley on the pretext that you're going to trawl for unspecified and potentially nonexistent wrongdoing.

      I don't think you know what a cargo cult (or by extension, "cargo cult science") is.

      It's not the court's purpose to air dirty laundry of people you don't like soley because there is dirty laundry to be aired.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:Careful what you wish for by T.E.D. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Michael Mann is not my favorite scientist, as he has a pattern of ...

      Do you seriously have favorite scientists? Quick: Who's your favorite and least favorite molecular biologists? How about Phytopathologists? Do they have groupies and haters too?

  7. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, really. You can see the actual spin in this very thread. They are starting to form a basic premise of "freedom of speech" being killed by these pesky "libel" laws(and judges who are now also in on the conspiracy).

    The oil companies/heartland institute don't have to create spin anymore, because they've had the most important success possible: making denialism an important part of the identity of a lot of people.

    There is not a soul who was babbling about this "scandal" when it "broke" who will take this ruling as cause for reconsideration. And that's the big success.

  8. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Why this isn't climate change at all! It's *removes mask from monster* Michael Mann and 97% of the world's scientists!"

    "We would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling billionaires!"

    (Oops. Should have added a spoiler alert.)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  9. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by afeeney · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The oil companies/heartland institute don't have to create spin anymore, because they've had the most important success possible: making denialism an important part of the identity of a lot of people.

    In some ways, it's very cult-like in the way that it forms identity. Denialism gives you victim/threatened status (those evildoers are attacking our beliefs, we need to be warriors), enough victories to think of oneself as a winner but maintain the communal aspects of thinking oneself under threat, charismatic leaders, the companionship of shared beliefs, a sense of superiority to those who disbelieve, and, in the most cult-like aspect, the assurance of being above mere facts, of living in a world where your personal beliefs trump mere objective facts.

  10. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and many climate scientists have been cautiously coming out of the closet and poking sticks at the shaky foundations as well

    And many of them are finding out the hard way that challenging religious dogma often gets you burned at the stake.

    Posting AC because even mild skepticism of AGW will get you burned as a heretic on /. too.

  11. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

    A fun thing about reversing climate change, pointed out by a climatologist in an article I recently read.

    If we cut new human emissions to zero, and found a way to stop the methane emissions from thawing permafrost and other positive feedback loops, historical evidence indicates that it might take a century or so for the planet's natural CO2 regulation methods to actually return to postindustrial levels.

    I mean, that'd be fine, because our situation today isn't broadly disastrous like another 4-5 degrees C would be. But there's good reason to be concerned about the actual target stabilization temperatures of the plans we're not even implementing yet.

  12. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't forget a sense of purpose. You are fighting this extremely large group of powerful individuals who are conspiring to make the public believe a lie. (Be it AGW, the moon landing, vaccinations preventing disease, alternative medicine, Obama not being a secret Muslim lizard robot intent on world domination, etc.) Only you and your small band know the truth and must fight against overwhelming odds to battle the lie. I'm sure many conspiracy theorists feel like they are living in a movie and cast themselves as the dashing hero determined to save the day.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  13. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by rgbscan · · Score: 4, Informative

    The 97% number is not nonsense, as you claim, it comes from this widely cited peer-reviewed study. http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/article

    After reviewing over 11,000 scientific papers on climate change, of the papers that took a position on climate change (either for or against), 97% concluded it was indeed happening and induced by man.

  14. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by roccomaglio · · Score: 4, Informative

    The statistic is not 97% of Scientists then is it. It is 97% of papers or 97% of scientist that published on global warming. That is not what the statistic claims to be.

  15. Citation needed please by aepervius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "the same mistake the anti-eugenics movement made in 1925 with the Scopes Monkey Trial [wikipedia.org], which fought the teaching of evolution in schools"

    All the history of the Butler act I ever read mention they simply feared teaching of evolution would weaken faith, and that they refused our descendance from great apes, as it would shows us as descending from lower beings like animals. At no point the proponent of Butler's act mentioned eugenism, that sound like a modern rewriting of the history. In fact the prominent web sites which promote this thesis are : answeringenesis and creation.com. Fancy that.

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  16. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by UnknowingFool · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OK, that was funny. But the 97% number is nonsense, just for the record. Skepticism about AGW catastrophism is rampant among the world's scientists at large (physicists, biologists, etc.), and many climate scientists have been cautiously coming out of the closet and poking sticks at the shaky foundations as well.

    [Citation Needed]
    This is the original press release about the 97%. By the way, the correct citation is "In analyzing responses by sub-groups, Doran found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role. "

    Basically the survey found that the experts in the field have 97% consensus. For overall numbers of scientists:

    Two questions were key: have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.
    About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent the second.

    Ordinary people hear "supercomputer driven model simulation" and they think "oooh, it must be really accurate and able to predict the future".

    No I think computer models are really the only thing we have as we don't have a spare planet to experiment upon and god-like powers. But with all models, I don't assume that they are all 100% accurate. But I think they can be constructed to be close enough to determine a reasonable outcome.

    Anybody who understands statistics and the banal realities of computation knows the good old GIGO principle. Not to mention the reality that nobody has ever successfully predicted long term climate changes, so throwing a supercomputer at an impossible problem doesn't magically add credibility. *sigh*

    No one has ever said that these models are 100% for all future predictions. Like most of science, theories (and models) that best fit observable data are used. And like most of science these are tested. I don't know if this is some sort of delusion or lack of understanding of how science works. Just because a scientist proposes something or releases a paper, it is not automatically accepted without challenge. Data is challenged. Conclusions are challenged.

    All science is challenged. Consensus is reached after enough data and evidence is presented that favors the conclusions. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity wasn't accepted because Einstein proposed it. It took a solar eclipse before many physicists began to accept that it might be the best theory. Now by today's standards, the results of solar eclipse experiment would not have been enough.

    --
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  17. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by rgbscan · · Score: 5, Informative

    Have you actually read the paper and the rebuttal in the blog you posted? The scientific paper specifically says says they removed the papers that did not take a position on AGW. Then the blog post comes along and says OMG! They threw out some papers and sensationalizes the very thing the scientific paper was up front about. How can the research paper count something in the for or against column (the very point of it's study) if no position is taken? It's a stupid sensationalist strawman.

    Scientific Paper: We removed from our study the papers that took no position for or against AGW. Here are the results of the papers with a position. This paper is not about how severe the conditions are, just tabulating the percentage of papers that conclude climate change is man made, and those that are not. That is the purpose of this research. Here is our data, linked to for your review. You can even download the PDF's and spreadsheets and review it in the linked data section.

    Your lame blog rebuttal: A sensationalized OMG! The scientific paper EXCLUDED papers that didn't take a position. How can their data possibly be credible now???? And even worse, they won't even say if its dangerous or not!!! This paper is a crock! Your lame blog then cites a letter from a scientist who asked for the data (even though it is all linked to and available on the IOP website) and the stufy authors didn't get back to them. The blog then cites this as daming proof that the study must be a joke. Because no one hand fed this guy data he could have downloaded off the site.

    You see why people can't take you seriously? Get yourself some peer reviewed data and we'll talk.

  18. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Bongo · · Score: 2

    I think it was Sam Harris who said that something strange happens when an issue becomes a moral issue. Reason and questioning are no longer allowed. Another weird thing is that people are easily affected to become irrational, when it is being done by the oil lobby, but environmentalists are immune to anything which might corrupt their judgement in a groupthink way. Enviros deconstruct other's hidden motives and agendas, but they themselves are immune. Weird no? To just happen to be in the right? (Real post-modern deconstruction as someone put it, is when you can deconstruct your own cultural groupthink biases before you try to deconstruct someone else's. Most people just use it as a way to attack others, whilst never questioning their own views.)

    Personally I am all for a truly global world free of inequality, of the unfairness of being born accidentally in a poor area, and think a global system that integrates development and environment and clean technology with high education and intelligence and happiness and creativity and purposeful existence for all is where humanity and the planet needs to keep striving for. All too often though the mass movements around this sort of thing fall back to old methods, like groupthink and moralistic judgements, forsaking critical discernment. Then when they don't get good results, they blame the big bad oil lobby.

  19. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That 97% number IS bull, and its right there in the link you provided, under abstract:

    We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.
    So of the abstracts which discuss global warming, 97% support AGW. Except, you would not call that an unbiased sample, nor would that be an acceptable selection criteria in any other poll, ever.

    I generally nope out of any AGW conversation because theyre cesspools of illogic, ad hominems, and general idiocy, but come on. That 97% claim is like saying "97%*** of CoD players hate the game (***- 97% of players posting negative posts on the message boards)".

  20. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Megol · · Score: 2

    OK, that was funny. But the 97% number is nonsense, just for the record. Skepticism about AGW catastrophism is rampant among the world's scientists at large (physicists, biologists, etc.), and many climate scientists have been cautiously coming out of the closet and poking sticks at the shaky foundations as well.
     

    I think you are right, we should let biologists design nuclear reactors as they obviously have an opinion about them. Just as we should employ eugenics as a number of Aryan physicists think we should!

    I'm a little bit surprised that Slashdot doesn't have more AGW catastrophism skeptics, to be honest. Ordinary people hear "supercomputer driven model simulation" and they think "oooh, it must be really accurate and able to predict the future". Anybody who understands statistics and the banal realities of computation knows the good old GIGO principle. Not to mention the reality that nobody has ever successfully predicted long term climate changes, so throwing a supercomputer at an impossible problem doesn't magically add credibility. *sigh* (goes back to reading Professor Judith Curry's blog)

    What? The fact we understand that we can't understand everything of every topic and that experts are likely to know their area better than us... isn't that a good thing? And your understanding of the area seems very suspect - it isn't only about "supercomputer driven model". Far from it.

  21. Re:It *isn't* that well understood by FirstOne · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Current CO2 concentration is 380 ppm or so."

    You're a bit out of date(2010), I see. Atmospheric CO2 has been crossing the 400ppm mark lately, (avr 399 ppm)

    Over the last year(june2013-june2014) it climbed by 2.56ppm, and that rate of increase appears to be accelerating, thus humanity is going to be in deep doo-doo real soon if we don't stop burning fossil fuels.

    The other facts you seam to be missing, Our star(SOL) was somewhat dimmer in the past, thus requiring much higher CO2 levels to keep the earth from freezing over. And that humanity is totally dependent on the current climate patterns..

  22. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Bongo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whoever asked for 100%? The errors on the models are so far rather huge.

    As for testing, yes, science is tested and challenged. But here's the rub: that process takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. Like 50 years.

    Both the scenarios and the time to correct are running into the decades, which is much longer than the window inside which we're supposed to act to avert catastrophe. In other words, both the prediction and the correction haven't come about yet, so anything we do now is based on faith and best guesses.

    You can't magic away the risk with a supercomputer and lots of clever people.

    Ideally science would be an ever gradual fine grained improvement, but as soon as you deal with complex systems, like human bodies, or diet, or climate, there is just no magic answer. Like you say, we don't have ten planets to run as experiments. As you say, it is not the scientific method as famous for testing things to death repeatedly that is being used. It is guesswork. Educated guesswork carries risks and unintended consequences.

  23. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Informative

    Plants are not the primary living consumers of CO2 on this planet. That'd be ocean-borne algae.

  24. Re:It *isn't* that well understood by dryeo · · Score: 2

    A couple of points. What was the pressure of the atmosphere at sea level during those times? We know the Sun put out less energy in the past so the Earth previously needed more greenhouse gases to be inhabitable. Eventually (perhaps a billion years) the Earth will get too hot even with zero CO2.
    The other point is that for 80% of the Earths history it has been in hot house conditions with tropical temps even at the poles. Ice house conditions (defined as having polar ice caps) have been rare. Thing is we and our ecosystem have evolved for ice-house conditions and the fossil record shows that when the Earth flips from ice-house to hot-house or the other way, there is usually an extinction event.
    While human kind may survive, civilization probably wouldn't and if it dies in war, well we have a lot of nukes which could make for a spectacular death to civilization.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  25. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Follow the money. How many grants are given to the study of ..... non catastrophic AGW? If you are a climatologist and want funding, you are pro-AGW, and you don't hide it, even if you are skeptical, as it is the only way to keep your funding.

    You have mixed something up. There are huge grants for disproving or challenging anything related to AGW funded by the powers that oppose (everybody with money). Pro-AGW science only receive money from everybody without money, which while a lot, doesn't really add up to anything.

  26. Re:Reciprocal discovery will make the emails publi by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not sure what grounds there are for reciprocal discovery in this instance. A libel suit has never been an opportunity for the defendant to play detective and attempt to prove their accusations.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  27. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by hairykrishna · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Define 'scepticism about AGW catastrophism'. I'm a professional physicist and I would suggest, based on experience talking to my colleagues, that there is very little scepticism amongst physicists that humans are responsible for observed temperature rises and are going to be responsible for a whole lot more. It is certainly not 'rampant'. Consequences of said warming for the human race is a different topic.

    --
    "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
  28. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What on earth are you talking about? If you could cast credible doubt on AGW you'd not only have industry throwing money at you, but once you'd overturned the current consensus in climate science you'd have every major university fighting to get hold of the person who revolutionised the field.

  29. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by phlinn · · Score: 2

    If a climatologist and a mathematician disagree on the math used in a climate paper, who is the expert?

    --
    "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
  30. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    Basically the survey found that the experts in the field have 97% consensus

    Problem is that skeptical scientists such as Richard Lindzen agree with that 'consensus', because the question is too narrow. Ask something more interesting like, "should we replace all our coal power with renewables because to prevent AGW?" or "is AGW going to be catastrophic?" and you will find that there is no consensus.

    But I think they can be constructed to be close enough to determine a reasonable outcome.

    You didn't clarify what you mean by 'reasonable outcome,' but this paper in Nature demonstrates that the climate models have serious errors.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  31. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Sockatume · · Score: 2

    "97% of scientists who actually work in this area" seems like the statistic you want to worry about, doesn't it?

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  32. Inconvenient by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 2

    Your post paints an overly simplistic view.

    No, it does not. It is not a view, it is fact. When the Earth's atmosphere has a higher partial pressure of CO2 it retains more heat. That is the essential point under consideration, and the exact value of the partial pressure is irrelevant and was not mentioned. We're not talking about the political issues, or the history of the planet, only cold hard measurable facts about [a] the relationship between irradiance and re-radiation, and [b] the absorption spectrum of CO2.

    However, on the separate subject you have noted, while we are indeed two orders of magnitude away from the highest CO2 levels, and the highest rates of emission, the previous atmospheric changes happened over the course of millions of years and are usually associated with mass extinctions. We've already been doing pretty well on the mass extinction front; this may not be a good time to rock the boat.

    If, as I have been told, conservatives are against change, can we maybe try to not pollute every square inch of the planet? I'm from rural Alaska, and it's getting a bit melty up there. It's not a place that I really enjoy living, but the glaciers were fairly pretty, and have you seen what permafrost does when it melts? Clearly this isn't a problem where you live, but please let's not pretend that it isn't an issue elsewhere. Pollution of any sort is ugly.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  33. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by Mr_Wisenheimer · · Score: 2

    The 97% is based on scientific polling of actual climate scientists. It is fair to say that about 19 out of 20 people actually doing research and publishing papers in the field of climatology have concluded that the buildup of greenhouse gas caused by human activity is becoming the driving force behind global warming.

    On the other hand, your claim is based on anecdotes about "physicists" and "biologists" who very well may not even do active research in climatology being "skeptical". But the fact is, denialism is not skepticism and genuine climate skeptics are few and far between. One would suppose that some of the 5% minority of climate scientists are genuine skeptics while the rest are paid by industry to pretend to be.

    Also, the idea that climate scientists rely on computer models to reach their conclusions is simply untrue. The conclusion would be valid even based on back of the hand calculations that any undergraduate scientist could do. There are only three major factors that affect the total retained heat of the planet:

    1) Solar radiance.
    2) Albedo
    3) The Greenhouse Effect

    You don't need a supercomputer to calculate the change in solar irradiance in the past 100 years and how much heat it has added or removed from the planet. Overall, it is a pretty null force.

    And, you don't need a supercomputer to calculate how much extra heat the small reduction in the albedo has retained due to us cleaning up our atmosphere.

    And finally, you don't need a supercomputer to calculate the large increase in heat energy added to the atmosphere by the increasing greenhouse effect.

    What you do need a supercomputer for is to predict how all this extra heat is going to effect the climate on a year-to-year basis. Which parts of the earth are going to get wetter, how much energy will be siphoned off by the oceans, how much less rain will Phoenix get.

    But none of these supercomputer models are necessary to figuring out what the primary cause of the temperature increase is, and that is the buildup of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.

  34. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by rgbscan · · Score: 4, Informative

    I didn't really mean to yell at you. I was characterizing the fervor of the blog you linked.

    If you feel it was sloppy, that 's the great thing about peer reviewed science. You are welcome to re-do it yourself. This was a simple study, with an easy to understand methodology, so I'm not sure what you find "sloppy". Please do elaborate.

    Repeat the experiment yourself.....

    Step 1) Researchers made a list of scientific papers from peer reviewed journals that search keywords found to match something about climate change. 11,000-12,000 of them. Here is the raw data (the one that your linked blog said the Norwegian scientist just couldn't somehow get his hands on, no matter how hard he tried or emailed, that your blog implied was a coverup). http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/media/erl460291datafile.txt

    Step 2) Review and determine if the paper takes a stand on global warming. Exclude the papers that do not. (Since the whole point of this experiment is to determine that percentage of papers for or against AGW)

    Step 3) Determine the percentages of the remaining papers. Are they for or against? Publish result.

    All this other stuff you and the blog bring up... is it dangerous? how much is man made? etc, etc is outside the scope of the study. The point of *this* one particular study is to find out what percentage of published, peer reviewed papers, attribute AGW to man made causes. Coming up with the "consensus" of scientists. If you have other questions, look to other research, but don't knock this paper or setup straw man arguments based on something it's not. That's just shady.

  35. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Informative
    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  36. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by neonKow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not a heretic. Burned as someone willfully ignoring the science to cling to their beliefs. This is slashdot, after all, and the way AGW skeptics present arguments often stinks of conspiracy theories.

  37. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

    My complaint is that the 97% draws an invalid link between abstracts written and opinion. 99.999% of scientists have an opinion on AGW; that doesnt mean they have written a paper on that. The way you determine that is to do a random sample poll, not to use a selection-biased sample and draw faulty conclusions on it.

  38. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

    97% of Catholic Priests believe in God. News at 11.

  39. Re:It *isn't* that well understood by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

    Yes the CO2 levels increased. Yet the global average temperature did not rise as predicted by the AGW model.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/la...
    http://www.nature.com/news/cli...

  40. Re: "Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by caveqat101 · · Score: 2

    Sorry you are so limited in scope. What this reenforced is secrecy in government. Mann was working on a government grant, with the permissions of his employer, a state college, also a government entity. He produced a product that has been called flawed. The statistics have been reworked, flawed. People, including other scientists, are asking the what and where of his research, he won"t release that research, or the emails related to the research where his basic tenant started to deviate. Or the databases used, or program that says your CO2 is the problem. But your shipping our jobs to 3rd world countries is now " solving" the problem. He he he!.

  41. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by IIJamesII · · Score: 2

    Believer here. No evidence required. As the "pro-science" side, we are free to say whatever we like. Nobody will scrutinize us because we all hold the same beliefs. Nobody wants to hurt a member of their own team. 97% of the skeptics here are paid by the Koch brothers.

  42. Re: by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    AEI, for one. $10k for any paper that attacks the IPCC reports. There's other public offers out there, too. And I'm sure they're outnumbered 100 times over by not-so-public ones.

    --
    Fox: "I think we should call it... your grave!" Cast: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
  43. Re: by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go right ahead and point me to where a decline in Antarctic ice was a forecast of AGW.

    You do know that - below freezing - there's an inverse correlation between temperature and snowfall, don't you? And I really hope you know that it's very rare that temperatures rise above freezing in the vast majority of Antarctica, whether you add a couple degrees to the temperature or not, right? Or did you not know / ever consider that?

    Just because you didn't realize something that should have been really bloody obvious to you doesn't mean it was a scientific prediction by your straw-man scientists.

    --
    Fox: "I think we should call it... your grave!" Cast: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
  44. Just another observation by golodh · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There is no legitimate reason to ask for researchers' emails. Such emails are only useful when you're trying to make things _personal_ instead of businesslike.

    You need people's emails when you're digging for something (anything really) you can use to discredit someone personally (apart from any scientific merit). Besides which, some of those emails are personal.

    The Virginia court ruled that filing a lawsuit just to get those emails constitutes harassment, which in turn is a frivolous use of the court's time. A sensible conclusion in my opinion.

    And yes, there do seem to be consequences for filing frivolous lawsuits.

    1. Re:Just another observation by TheRealLifeboy · · Score: 2

      In the case of Michael Mann, there is, since he is a megalomaniac delusionary fraudster, bent on world domination. We need to every single email he's ever sent or received.

      See this and that.

  45. Re:It *isn't* that well understood by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

    The stairwell in Venice is submerged because Venice itself is sinking, not because sea levels rose several feet since it was built.

  46. Re: by Rei · · Score: 2

    He said ice sheet. So we're supposed to ignore what he actually said and assume he meant something completely different? Um, no.

    "I am not well read in this department" - wait a minute, you can give exact cites for research papers on sea ice, but don't even have a *general* conception of what percentage of the Antarctic ice sheet is gaining versus what is losing? Something tells me you're just grabbing cites you've never even read from denier websites.

    Let me help you out with ice sheet. Pretty much all of the East Antarctic ice sheet is gaining, while pretty much the only area losing is the Antarctic peninsula and surrounding areas in West Antarctica. Now, they're losing *mass* a lot faster per unit area than the east is gaining mass, but in terms of area, the overwhelming majority of Antarctica is gaining ice. Because it almost never gets above freezing there, even in a warming world.

    The 2010 paper was evaluating the failed CMIP5 predictions

    If you'd actually read the paper, which you clearly haven't, you'd know that they themselves did the CMIP5 runs, it's not CMIP5 runs that had been done earlier. Do you even have a clue what CMIP5 stands for? Coupled Model Intercomparison Project Phase 5. As in, "there were four freaking phases that came before this one". CMIP5 is comprised of all of the latest models from all over the world. They didn't even start planning CMIP5 unitl September 2008. Your notion that this is some sort of review of old climate predictions just shows how terrible your understanding is of what you're talking about and how you don't actually read the papers that you cite, that you're just simply grabbing them from whatever denialist trash websites you read.

    --
    Fox: "I think we should call it... your grave!" Cast: "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
  47. Re:Inb4 the denialist argument of the day by coinreturn · · Score: 2

    so...why have temperaturse not risen during last 15-17 years while C)2 went up?

    Holy shit that canard has been busted more times than I can count.

    Of course, moderated into oblivion by deniers. No surprise there. Do you guys really fail to understand the cherry-picking of the data point 15-17 years ago and the false "trend" from that point?

  48. Re:"Thus ends "Climategate." Hopefully." by BergZ · · Score: 2
    You say:

    "Science is not supposed to be driven by consensus."

    It isn't and nobody ever said it was. You're arguing against position that nobody believes.
    Scientific consensus is only important as a signal to the general public. When a scientific consensus forms around a new theory it signals that the evidence for a theory is so strong that it has convinced a large majority of scientists in a field of study that the theory is accurate. It tells us "you can take the theory seriously now".

    You say:

    "You are supposed to design a theory that makes worthwhile predictions about some aspect of the real world and then test it in the real world to ensure it actually predicts stuff."

    I'm not a Climatologist but I'm pretty sure that is exactly what they've been doing: Making predictions and testing them.
    I suspect that the recently launched Orbiting Carbon Observatory satellite is going to collect data that will be used to test some predictions climate science has made about the sources and sinks of carbon.

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