Slashdot Mirror
VP Biden Briefs US Governors On H-1B Visas, IT, and Coding
theodp writes: Back in 2012, Computerworld blasted Vice President Joe Biden for his ignorance of the H-1B temporary work visa program. But Joe's got his H-1B story and he's sticking to it, characterizing the visa program earlier this month in a speech to the National Governors Association as "apprenticeships" of sorts that companies provide to foreign workers to expand the Information Technology industry only after proving there are no qualified Americans to fill the jobs. Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree.
Gotta wonder who Slow Joe cribbed his speech from this time? Neil Kinnock's country doesn't have an H1B program...
Joe Biden knows less about coding than my daughter.
Hell, he probably knows less about coding than he knows about guns...
Hint, Joe: firing a shotgun THROUGH your front door violates pretty much every rule about target identification that there is.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
they can't find people who will work 60-80+ hours for very low pay and the will to be in a place where they can't quit and will be big suck ups not to get fired.
It's not about skills it about this
On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 LESS then what USC get.
$13000 less and they get 60+ work weeks out of them as well.
Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree
So perhaps he can reconcile those two concepts and explain why we allow H1Bs when we have MILLIONS of unemployed college grads?
Mr. Biden, I have a word of advice for you - CEOs lie. And not just a little, but as their primary (and sometimes only) qualification. You might not want to go around repeating the crap they spew to try to sway you to do their bidding. It just, y'know, make you look like a little like a Special Olympics winner, if you get my meaning.
"Oh, we would just LOVE to hire people for these positions, but it's just so TOUGH... even if the position requires a 2 year degree."
Naturally, if 200,000 such people did graduate tomorrow, the CEOs will have another excuse why this corporate welfare program needs to keep going.
Some places want them to fill lower-level rolls and low pay as it's much cheaper and they locked into the job.
Now maybe if there was say very high H-1b min wage say 100K + COL and forced OT pay (so they can't get the work 2-3 people out of 1 h-1b) that would get rid of a lot of the abuse of the system.
Try & apply for a job at, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc with a 2 year degree. Good luck.
I have years of experience in programming and management yet 99% of the time HR kicks out my resume because I do not have that BS in Comp Sci. Sorry I was self taught! I had a friend working at a bigger company that recommended me so I actually got an interview. The dept head liked me, got great responses in each of the interviews, then got an email from the dept head saying they filled with another candidate. Found out from my friend they found a guy (H1B) that they could work 6-7 days a week for less than half the salary they were discussing with me. Companies want CHEAP! I have been offered salaries under $18k a year for 6 day work weeks.
4 year degrees have a lot theory with big sides of fluff / filler classes.
While tech schools and community college have teachers who have been / still are working in a real work place doing IT work.
the 4 years places not so much.
They get hired, stay here for, say, four years learning the tricks of the trade, and then what happens? They have to leave, and are banned from working in the US for an entire year. Talk about a brain drain.
Assuming that Biden could articulate or remember the bullshit that those CEOs told him, the governors and others in attendance learned practically nothing about how the current system actually works and how it is being abused. If there was another speaker, they should have opened up with "Forget everything you just heard. That's the myth from the CxO views, here's what is really going on...."
They're smart, they just play dumb. It's more profitable.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
The jobs could in fact be done by Americans with no degrees at all. This cultural indoctrination that you must have a degree must end. I've been programming for 30 years as a profession and I have never had a degree, and I'll never submit to the immoral status quo by getting one. I have both the theory, the experience, and the necessary practical skills under my belt, and all without a single degree.
I know, blast me as a troll. But honestly that is exactly how I classify this. We are exporting jobs and importing workers at an alarming rate.
"Apprenticeships"...."two-year community college degree"....rofl. Good news everyone, your Software Engineering / Computer Science degrees were silently downgraded during the night to trade-school status, meaning you are now no better off that our Information Technology 'plumber' friends. That 4-year / 5-year bachelors of science / arts program you soldiered through? Doesn't matter anymore. But don't worry...our Electrical Engineering 'electrician' and Mechanical Engineering 'mechanics' friends will be joining you soon.
That's should tell you something about his judgement.
Well hell, if the need H1B for an apprentice (i.e. entry level with low skills), that goes to show the true intent.
Biden said he also learned from his talks with tech's top CEOs that 200,000 of the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree.
How are they highly skilled if they could be replaced by 2 year community college degree holders? If any this just shows how much companies are abusing H1B's to get cheap foreign workers when they could be encouraging high school students to get these mythical 2 year community college degrees that are in such high demand.
You can make more working full time at min wage (in a non tech job) and if you hit OT you get payed more.
Who offered that shit pay?
We just need TERM LIMITS for all Elected Federal offices. I figure give them 12 years in congress max. After that send them packing for home. This Strom Thurmond's 47 years, and Ted Kennedy's 40 years stuff has got to stop.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I am with you there. Our best employees are the ones that have not been through the debt claiming process of getting a degree. I personally find that the guys we have that went are way too comment happy. 8 lines of comment for a well named variable. The Cisco techs that we have comment access lists for port 80 traffic as "web server". IF you didn't post AC, I would love to talk more.
Companies want cheap labor, labor locked in with one company, and willing to work 60+ hours a week. Politicians are bought and paid for by business, thus H1-B visas and illegal immigrants are feeding labor pool to increase shareholder value and increase profits. It's not that complicated. If a politician truly cared about America and American workers, there would be no H1-B visas and no illegal immigration for low skilled workers. As a side note, Cezar Chavez was against illegal immigration because he knew that if there was a steady stream of low-skilled farm workers from Mexico, then that would dilute the power of his union. Companies would just hire from the very large pool created by illegal immigration. It is interesting that this administration had been talking about income inequality, but H1-B visas and illegal immigration lead to more income inequality not less. Again, not too complicated --- low supply higher wages, ample supply of labor lower wages.
"There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and
The jobs could in fact be done by Americans with no degrees at all. This cultural indoctrination that you must have a degree must end ...
In my 30 years of programming experience I have rarely seen a job advertisement that did not say 4-year degree or equivalent, equivalent as in on the job experience, as your experience suggests.
... I've been programming for 30 years as a profession and I have never had a degree, and I'll never submit to the immoral status quo by getting one. I have both the theory, the experience, and the necessary practical skills under my belt, and all without a single degree.
Some of the best programmers I know never finished college. However they are **extremely** rare. They will read and figure out college level material over a broad set of topics on their own time on their own initiative, a broad set of topics comparable to those found in a typical degree program. However most of the self taught do not seem to be that self motivated, they may study some topics that are of interest to them but they will not have the broad understanding that the former or the formally trained typically have. Many of the formally trained are no more intelligent nor any more self motivated, but they had external motivations compelling them to study things that they had little interest in. The odd thing about many of the less interesting topics is that they often have unforeseen application to problems you eventually encounter and/or they are actually more important than you knew.
That said, there are also many in college who really have no interest in programming and are just there to get their "ticket punched", to get a piece of paper. They did not enter the program because of any inherent interest in programming and engineering, rather someone told them it was a good career path. Such individuals do not turn out to be the better programmers either. In contrast those with an inherent interest in programming often go far beyond the work required for class and use the incredible resources found at a university to study things that otherwise would have been beyond their resources.
So if a person has the time and resources to attend college they would do a great disservice to themselves to skip it due to some political position. You get out of college what you put in, and you will have access to resources and people you probably could not find anywhere else. And that includes likeminded peers. Its one thing to collaborate on code over the internet, its another thing to sit side by side staring at the same screen trying to puzzle something out and walking around campus bouncing ideas around. Plus there is also ready access to individuals studying other necessary disciplines. The density of useful knowledge and experience is quite high among fellow students at a university, its just a matter of finding people with genuine interests in their respective fields rather than the ticket punchers.
Hey, working 60+ hours per week is a bona fide occupational qualification for some jobs! These immigrants are just filling jobs that Americans don't want to do.
Another problem is that these companies tend to tailor H-1B job requirement statements to particular foreign candidates in such a way that essentially every US-based candidate who might see the posting would not qualify or would ignore it (for example, because of that pay disparity or the work week or other conditions listed in the job description).
Has anyone ever noticed that the big Hartford insurers who have hundreds of millions of COBOL code never complain about shortages of talent? Even with all those people retiring or whatever?
See, they have training programs. You take an aptitude test (no degree required) and if you pass, you get into a training program. If you get through that you are then given a job and a raise. If you do well during the trial period, you're given another raise.
And it's not "code monkey" training either. It's design, algorithms, and a lot of the theory in a CS program.
The companies mentioned by parent - companies that are MUCH more profitable that the insurers - do not have those.
Though they do spend about 20 of those hours smoking and watching cricket matches.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
is it racist for EVERY OTHER COUNTRY, when they look after their own, first; and then (maybe) give jobs to foreigners?
no, its not. its called 'common sense'; something that the US is lacking (and the parent poster, too, apparently)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
The only logical explanation is the Presidents are assured a statistically more likely term of service without an assassination attempt.
Surely, McCain didn't pick Palin for the Alaskan electoral college.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Two years of community college heck just hire the older workers that you let go because you thought they were too old.
Why is it that no one notices when an IT project goes way over budget and is a complete failure?
Like when we pay $500 million for a web site.
Where'd the money go?
Sometimes I wonder if we just hire stupid people with a language barrier to hide what's really going on.
Hmmm...
Then the circle will be complete. Or at least the politicians will achieve self-awareness.
Or invest in training, although they won't do this because it is cheaper to layoff someone and replace them with a H1-B visa worker.
"There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and
Sigh. Poe's law once again.
I was illustrating the absurdity of racism charges against opponents of illegal immigration.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Universities are a HUGE business with their tentacles in the government structure and in society's mind. Selling information, enforcing a feudal social model.
They're not fluff. They're just not about getting a job, but about getting an education. If all you want is a degree, go to a technical school. You'll be happy. University is (or rather, should be) for people who want to learn and expand their knowledge, even in fields unrelated with what they hope to be doing once they graduate.
The "4 years places" you speak of so lowly may not have professors doing IT work, but they have highly knowledgeable researchers who have done stuff you wouldn't even be able to grasp for years, often decades. They're just not the people I'd ask about IT.
Our best employees are the ones that have not been through the debt claiming process of getting a degree
Biden is insisting that the H-1B program must go on because it provides a sort of "apprenticeships" to foreigners
Well, I was from China, but am an American and I can speak with the view of a foreigner (the one from China) and that of an American and I can tell you that if America does not stop giving "apprenticeships" to foreigners one day there will be no more jobs for Americans
The old way of giving "apprenticeships" for "foreigners" was the way I got mine - When I landed on the soil of the USA I was a young refugee without a full secondary school education
I had my "apprenticeships" inside America because I had no place to go and after I graduated from college (with no debt, since I worked 3 jobs on the side - sometimes more than 3 jobs - while studying) I worked at American technology companies where I got further training.
After that I started my own companies, sold some of them, and re-invested what I got into other startup and made even more
In other words, while America provided "apprenticeships" for me this former "apprentice" stayed put in America and started businesses in America and created many job opportunities for other Americans
On the other hand, the way H-1B visa program works is that it provides "apprenticeships" for foreigners, and they got back to their own country, taking their skills with them, start up their own businesses in their own countries, create job opportunities for their own people, not Americans
Who loses in this game ?
The Americans
Who win ? The foreigners
Folks, especially you Americans out there --- please top the politicians, no matter from which political party they came from, from destroying America from the inside out
What Biden is doing is to cut out the innards of America and give it to the foreigners
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
20 CEO's but not one layed off person? only 18,000 from Microsoft alone.....
I'm for unlimited work visas. I'm afraid neither of Indians who want to live and work here nor Mexicans who want to live and work here. I see both as positive for this is the land of opportunity and freedom.
They said that they needed Temporary Foreign Workers and it would lead to full time jobs in Canada too.
And then the media got off their butts and figured out that it was really being used to provide cheap labour in Canadian restaurants instead of hiring local teens.
H1-B is a giant sucking sound of jobs being outsourced to India, and I don't mean native tribal lands here in North America.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
4 year degrees have a lot theory with big sides of fluff / filler classes.
While tech schools and community college have teachers who have been / still are working in a real work place doing IT work.
the 4 years places not so much.
Can't say for today, but my 4 year school I went through in 6 years (co-op programs spread things out); and near the end, most of my seminars were taught by either domain experts or people taking a sabbatical from their day job to teach what they had learned.
The theory courses were what has kept me employed since... there's a difference between a real CS degree (being able to do the math and work the concepts) and being a code jockey. The second has a much lower glass ceiling.
Free market - they are filling jobs locals don't want to do for the money being offered - apparently it's only a one way free market - surprise, surprise, surprise. Using the car analogy Unions provide for lanes travelling in the other direction, from the top down to the bottom. Want change unionise and kill the H-1Bs.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
... if you were hoping for friends of high paying, non-government, white collar jobs, perhaps Obama/Biden wasn't the smartest choice, my coder bros ...
Technically nativism or tribalism, although race can be a contributing factor.
The H1-B "requirement" that causes there to be no Americans "qualified" to take the job is the willingness to be abused.
They are made to work essentially 24/7, they get paid shit and they are treated like disposable napkins. The immorality of H1-B is absolutely disgusting.
> If we're going to open up our southern border...
The problem with H1-Bs is not that they "feruhners". The problem with H1-Bs is that they are an underclass that's at the mercy of the company that imported them. They are even lower on the totem pole than underpaid undocumented Mexicans.
If you are an H1-B, ICE knows exactly where to find you if you get too "uppity".
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Senator blasts Microsoft for hb1 push and firing 18000 workers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kedfVAbXNy0&sns=em
and here is a petition to stop the hb1
http://www.petition2congress.com/7637/abolish-h1b-visa-program/
just doens't qualify much thought.. little thought in, little thought out
I thought the verb was "pantsing". As in VP Biden pantsed the governors while yelling "it's going to happen! Just give in a enjoy it!"
Plausible deniability..
However, some comments made by politicians make s 60 IQ seem like a mensa candidate. I mean we have that guy from texas who thought the term black hole was a sexist and racial derogotory term. Snd there was that senator who feared an island would flip over. Of coursd nanci pelosi gives us s few good ones too.
Unions are an incredibly poor way to control abusive employer tactics unless workers in the bargaining unit are basically fungible -- and knowledge workers are not. A much better approach would be something like an online exchange for H-1B job postings, where US-based employees can register their interest for a job opening (along with their current and/or target salary) and see whether the job eventually goes to someone with permanent work authorization in the US and what the salary is, and perhaps see an anonymized summary of the eventual hire's qualifications relative to the posting's requirements. This would give employees most of the information necessary to (decide whether to) file a complaint either with immigration authorities or in court.
I didn't see a problem with Biden's comments and makes me wonder if Computerworld is nothing more then an industry sympathizer, or worse they are being bought off buy the tech industry to make sensationalism rants instead of pointed to the facts.
I did find a problem with his comments on companies claiming if they couldn't find qualified US born workers they can fill out the jobs with H-1B workers, I seriously question this whole "highly-skilled" H-1B nonsense, to me a lot of these jobs are nowhere near highly-skilled, and these companies are looking for nothing more the cheap, dangerously close to slave, labor. And who is really keeping an eye on these American born jobs seekers? Are these companies looking for US born workers or are they in fact being passed over for H-1B workers! Companies have a pretty pathetic application/Interview process which seems intentional fixed so they can come up with excuses to hire H-1B labor.
I believe anyone should get an opportunity to work in any field they want, no matter where their from. But lets call this out for what it really is. Monopolistic companies/corporations looking to have cheap throw away labor, and they've proven they can buy off just about anyone of influence and political power to try and get what they want. However if the general voting populace doesn't agree with the crap their politicians are trying to lie to them over then these companies are going to lose out. This is a roller coaster topic with the public commenting on being against it, then saying its not as bad as first thought, and they change their opinions yet again.
Don't forget about all those maned mars missions.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
"the jobs that companies provide each year to highly-skilled H-1B visa holders could in fact be done by Americans with no more than a two-year community college degree."
Wow.. So is that what they regard "Highly Skilled" as in USA? Kind of explains a lot...
One of the requirements for an H1-b is that there is no qualified American to take the job. When these CEOs admit that these jobs can be done by Americans they are admitting to H1b fraud.
I never knew you were Jewish.
Be careful with term limits. I support them, but one thing to be aware of is that if we had them, the lobbiests would know the system/game better than the politicians leading to them having more power to influence things... see California State Govt.
Want change unionise and kill the H-1Bs.
I like the way you think but killing migrant workers is still illegal in my state.
As a person on an H-1B visa making 100k+/yr I'd like to comment that they do have to fill out what the prevailing salary is for your position in the application to prevent salary dumping. :)
However I have no idea where the companies get those averages from or how accurate they actually are
The purpose of the H1-B visa program is to devalue intellectual labor within the US. That's it. Numerous studies have shown that the original claims of pursuing the brightest minds around the world is a farce -- and that there is no significant difference between foreign and domestic engineers/scientists/etc. Some H1-B VISA recipients find a way to stay here, but many will go back to their home countries and take their experience/skills with them.
The gist of the whole thing is that STEM workers are devalued and lesser empowered than they would be. Meanwhile politicians keep pushing STEM education despite the fact that there is nowhere for them to go, especially in the life sciences.
We either need LESS STEM/H1-B workers, or more jobs to put them in. As it stands you've got the most intelligent people in the country living like they have a high school diploma for the sheer reason that they love the work enough to endure that kind of disrespect (we can leave the CS/IT crowd out which is clearly compensated much higher). And just you wait until the workplace is filled with people that have used computers since infancy and were required to code in high school --- then your IT/CS jobs will lose value and purpose as well.
Now is a great time to start thinking about a major change in world view and what it means to be a nationalist and what truly incentivizes the most powerful people on earth (by power, I mean intellect, not wealth and legacy). World order and basic incomes are a good place to start, but those are cans of worms I'm not trying to focus this topic on -- but as it stands, a major change will be required for the people to adapt to international politics, resources, and global issues that can no longer be ignored.
is Obama's Jar Jar Binks.
There, I've said it. The guy's a complete moron who went straight from college to a seat in congress with even less real-world work experience than Obama. The one truly brilliant act of Joe Biden's professional life was that he insisted everybody call him "lunchbox Joe" and after a bout a decade, all his voters thought he had been a "regular blue collar guy" like them.
[sarc]Now I'm probably going to end up on the "no-fly" list and get audited[/sarc]
What Biden is saying is that there is systematic and widespread abuse of the H1-B visa program.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
That's great, but you cannot ignore that it reduces the wage you can command on average in the market. Wages are prices controlled by supply and demand, and fewer opportunities are open to you because you have no degree. Yes, you can say those employers are ignorant, but it doesn't really matter.
The only requirement in fact is that you be willing to work in an "apprenticeship" (code word for jobs paying significantly less than market rate salaries).
The main complain about H-1b is that they depress wages. I think it can be easily resolved by getting companies bid for visas with wages. With limited number of visas whoever offers higher salary gets to import the workers. The cutoff wage should be published. If it gets too low, the number of visas are decreased. If it's too high - increased.
Greedy billionaires want to keep a hidden loophole in H-1b visa law a secret. Under existing law it is 100% legal for companies to hire exclusively offshore for jobs in your zip code AND it is perfectly legal for companies for replace Americans in their jobs with foreign citizens on corporate visas... Also, there is NO test for "best and brightest" and most jobs filled by H-1b visa workers are entry level. The problem is thee law, not the people. Gotta love the best government money can buy.
Get the facts www.brightfuturejobs.com
I have a degree and I'm still against all this h1b visa bullshit.
Something is a bit off.
If H-1B is for hiring foreign highly skilled worker -- people who have skills that just aren't available in the US workforce -- then how are they "apprentices"?
Isn't an apprentice someone who is learning the trade, not someone who is teaching it to the "master"?
This cultural indoctrination that you must have a degree must end. I've been programming for 30 years as a profession and I have never had a degree
And I've worked with enough people who were so smart at 18 years old that they decided they didn't need to go to college that I've decided the requirement of a degree has some merit.
Some of these people really are great at syntax and terminology, and a few of them are actually good at coding certain things, but mostly, they do things the hard way, they organize their projects around data when it is process that better defines what they're trying to accomplish, the write overly complex solutions to simple problems, they saddle their employer with unnecessary technology, and there are certain classes of problems that they simply can not solve at all. For one, why do they think it's funny that they don't know math, and that a solution involving guessing, approximation and unreasonable process limitation is an acceptable alternative to algebra?
In short, they suck at problem solving. That's not a surprise since the first adult problem they faced, they took a shortcut.
The problem is the law, not the people. Watch Dan Rather explain the secret loophole in H-1b visa law that companies don't want you to know here: here:http://www.brightfuturejobs.com/the_secret
----
Did you know that ompanies can fill white-collar jobs with citizens from abroad without ever seeking local Americans first? Even worse, they can displace them. But they can't do so for their blue-collar jobs because Congress made sure that blue-collar workers have the first crack at jobs on U.S. soil.
Because Congress isn't protecting Americans' opportunity to compete for jobs in our own country, national origin discrimination is now rampant in the tech industry. It's gotten so bad that companies brazenly post "No Americans Need Apply" job ads - and the DOJ busted IBM for posted such ads.
This issue is conflated with the general issue of immigration, and they cite H-1B immigration reform with the issue of migrant agricultural workers to further confuse people about the state of American immigration. The jobs lost to H-1B visa recipients are not the low paying menial work that the average migrant worker has no interest in, they are taking skilled jobs that could serve to help assuage the issue of unemployment in America if we would just decide to "apprentice" our own neglected youth labor population. They don't need to be put through college, just a rigorous training regiment to give them the skills to be able to learn as they work, like a real apprenticeship, not this figurative wholesale of the American economy. I have the burning suspicion that they are using the immigrant work force in IT to prevent the burgeoning industry from ever becoming unionized or some other form of coherent worker self direction. I guess the model of debt incumbent home owners not going on strike has evolved into, debt incumbent immigrants don't have the rights to strike.
Not sure how this had not been mentioned, but virtually all the largest users of the program are outsourcing firms. I've worked with all the big ones and the people who come over are not here for apprentice work, they are generally here to collect the requirements and send the actual work back to home base. They also aren't the best and brightest, or even average - takes 5x - 25x as much time, usually several people to do the job of one, and actually end up costing more.
Even in this thread, I've seen the same logic I've seen corporations make - I can't find anyone else for $X. First of all, that's exactly not what the visas are supposed to solve - they are specifically bit supposed to be used to undercut wages (but they are). Second, if you hire someone for X and they only so a fifth of the work as someone competent, you would be better off pasting the competent person even $4X, especially since those 5 people doing 1 persons job need a manager and an account person, etc.
Hey, working 60+ hours per week is a bona fide occupational qualification for some jobs!
No, no it is not. It means that one person is doing the work of two, and a so-called "job creator" is expecting them to pick up the tab for their greed. Of course, it's possible that this supposed job creator cannot afford to hire enough people to get the work done, in which case they should go out of business so that someone who can fill the need and pay a living wage can fill the gap, or so that potential customers find another, more cost-effective solution which can be implemented while paying a living wage.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I took on the 10s of thousands in student loans just to prove I could code. I was teaching my college professor ui programming that they neglected to cover in his master's degree courses. They didnt teach me much that is actually useful. That piece of paper landed me a crap local gvmt programming position. Hardly worth it.
The theory courses were what has kept me employed since... there's a difference between a real CS degree (being able to do the math and work the concepts) and being a code jockey. The second has a much lower glass ceiling.
I'm working 15 years as a software engineer/consultant and I learned one thing: most of the time, the crappiest code is being produced by people with a CS degree.
and keep the jobs here
No... The H1-B program is a way of making people more successful in their home country not to bring that knowledge and talent into the U.S. on a permanent basis.
As an outsider with no bias here, it occurs to me that the above is probably in the long-term interests of the US as well. India is a big place, with lots of people, many of whom today are struggling with things we take for granted in the West. Helping to improve things like education standards and technological advancement potentially develops a vast export market for US products and services in the future and/or a mutually advantageous trading partner.
People often look at international aid schemes as charity, and support them on that basis, but the truth is that there is often a level of "enlightened self-interest" behind government support for those schemes, because things like global security and having stable economies in your trading partners are in everyone's interest. Much the same arguments could be made, as I understand it, for the US H1-B programme.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Joe Biden is a square shooter ... BIDEN FOR 2016
To clarify, both sentences in the first paragraph of my earlier comment were sarcastic. Working that many hours per week might be a BFOQ in rare instances of personal service work, and maybe (I personally doubt it) some operations jobs, but there is no way it would be accepted as a BFOQ for a development job.
I started a petition to bring attention to and stop H1-B Visas. If it can happen int he tech industry it can happen in any industry; American jobs must be protected. I hope you will sign and pass it on! Just 2 clicks (or copy/pate); the link below, then one to sign. Thanks!
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-stealing-american-jobs-h-1b-visas/XJXY0FN0
Something is a bit off.
If H-1B is for hiring foreign highly skilled worker -- people who have skills that just aren't available in the US workforce -- then how are they "apprentices"?
Isn't an apprentice someone who is learning the trade, not someone who is teaching it to the "master"?
And there's the "rub" - I don't think most of us would have an issue with bringing in an H1-B nuclear physicist, or highly trained medical professional, or the like... but those are *truly* "highly skilled" professionals that would help this country compete. But bringing in lower skilled people as "apprentices" is *not* what the H1-B program is supposed to be about.
Maybe petitions, work,maybe not. But doesn't it feel good to click your signature and feel like you've done something? Please go the address below and click it to stop H1-B Visas! Much love! https://petitions.whitehouse.g...
AIUI the problem is that the H1B abusers advertise a position with a low-level job title but a high level set of requirements. In this way they can appear to be paying the prevailing wage for the "position" while actually paying a lot less than they would pay for a similarly skilled american.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Though I like Joe Biden and he is actually a pretty sharp guy -- at least as far as knowledge and logic. He's also a bit naive and trusting (like Jimmy Carter used to be). So it's likely hes using the terminology of the CEO's who have candy coated marketing speak.
Seems like Biden is merely channeling the opinions of the CEOs and .1% on this topic. The CEO's think of themselves as taking someone under their wing, rather than exploiting a worker trained on someone else's dime and pocketing the savings.
60+ hours per week isn't a requirement for practically any job. If there is more than 40hr a week of work to do they should compensate by hiring enough people, not by overworking and underpaying who they have.
The eagerness of industry for more H1-B workers is all about their cheapness, profit, short-sightedness and disrespect for the society they grew wealthy in, NOT about necessity.
Hey, working 60+ hours per week is a bona fide occupational qualification for some jobs! These immigrants are just filling jobs that Americans don't want to do for the salaries that companies want to pay - and can get away with paying to H1B visa holders
FTFY
I can't count the number of times I've recently been approached by Indian service companies for contracts I would have taken if it weren't for the rates on offer.
I'm guessing they're keeping count of how many people turn down how many jobs/contracts and use this as justification to demand temporary visas.
If this happens to anyone else I suggest that when they say "Oh so you're not interested?" that instead of answering 'No' answer instead 'Yes but I want my rate of X per hour/day/year'.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
To clarify, both sentences in the first paragraph of my earlier comment were sarcastic.
I find that I have a harder time detecting sarcasm online as I age. Perhaps it's all the times I've seen such sentiments promoted honestly.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
A few radical republicans fantasize about impeachment. But when they realize who'd replace Barak, they'll come to their senses.
I went back and got a degree after 25 years. It's not the *degree*, it's the *education* that matters, and I got a lot more out of the education than my younger peers. This was a new perspective on things I was already familiar with, and I was able to connect a lot of dots I wouldn't have been able to when I was eighteen. I could immediately see what stuff was good for, and I discovered a number of things that would solve commonplace problems I'd seen occur over and over again, even with personnel wit advanced degrees.
Then I got out and discovered that the world didn't want to hire a fifty year old who'd been "out of work" (going to school) for three years....
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
There's only one thing you need to know about the H-1B program to see that it's not about providing skilled labor *here*: after 6-10 years of working the visa holder is kicked out of the country to make room for a less experienced visa holder.
If H-1B led automatically to a green card, then we'd be keeping the *most* expert workers here, rather than replacing them with less experienced ones. Change that *one* aspect of the program, and it's be an asset to the US as a nation.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
that may be right I know this one guy is a coder and went to a state school and I am finding bugs in his code all the time.
I just wanted to say that while it was likely a humorous misspeak, Americans really do need to 'top' our politicians rather than allowing corporate interests to top them in our stead.
Y'know, like Hillary should've topped Bill so he wouldn't be getting his dick sucked by every heavyset intern with an acceptable clothed bosom.
H1B is originally intended for extra-ordinary professionals like Albert Einstein, Linus Torvalds etc.
Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor (US)
Found this in a business fourm:
Adaptec - Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Apple - R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Australia's National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas - Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
Circuit City - Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Deloitte - 2010 - this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
Dell - call center (closed in India)
Delta call centers (closed in India)
Fannie Mae - Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty.
GM - Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
Medicare - Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft - Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it's lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
PepsiCo - Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi' watch.
Polycom - Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas - See AirBus above
Casteism
The bottom line is this. 18000 microsoft getting tossed in favor of H1-B's is basically letting go of the american workers in that move. This is tantamount to immigration fraud. It's going to happen all over if the H1-B is allowed to continue the way it is. It's a lose-lose either way. The entire H1-B program appears to now being gamed in favor of foreign workers getting preferences at lower pay over american workers at industry standard pay.
Ok, so you don't live in Texas.....
This space intentionally left blank
...
Thousands of STEM jobs are being done by US citizens with no degrees; but we have millions of US citizens with STEM degrees who can't get STEM work.
OTOH, in 2012, the US government gave out over 135,991 H-1B visas, and over 153,794 H-1B visas in 2013. Maybe he was thinking of the F+OPT apprenticeships... many of which are unpaid.
Then again, how many more able and willing US citizens would have had a decent career if they weren't constantly being undermined by these apprenticeship and guest-work programs which favor non-citizens?
I think the most irritating thing is the way the reporters (and executives, and politicians, and their lobbyists) assert that every H-1B is "best and brightest" and "highly-skilled", when the data available suggest no such thing; and not a single reporter questions them about it. Experts differ a little, but generally come down in a range between 2% and 8% of H-1B grantees who may be genuinely excellent, bright, highly-skilled; the vast majority are mediocre lights, doing mediocre kinds of work, at below-market compensation. And US citizens aren't given a chance to bargain over pay, even if only to become and stay employed rather than dismissed without consideration, regardless of knowledge, experience, creativity, industry, past productivity, etc.
Microsoft - a large proponent of H1B - announced 18,000 layoffs earlier; there are definitely 18,000 qualified candidates out in the open market. Give them each a voucher. Until they get a job and turn in their voucher, we can safely suspend the H1B program. Shut the doors. Close the office. Give those guys a well-deserved (paid) vacation. It's not like Microsoft just wants to flood the market with so many tech employees that they can underpay them and demand they feel grateful for their paycheck - they *really* just didn't have any qualified American programmers on the market. But that's changed now!
I know I always go see my local doctor who doesn't have a degree either.
Bad example. While anyone can learn to program and get experience on their own without college, it is difficult for people like doctors to get actual experience without some sort of institution.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
More like they build the job posting to fit one foreign amateurs resume and then act like there is no one in the USA that could do it. The H1-B is complete fucking slavery. No raises likely and as many hours as the employer wants to put you through OR you get fired and lose your ability to stay here -- then have to buy your own ticket home. That's why our corporatacracy allows this -- employment is slavery too, but not nearly as bad. As long as you work for money you're basically in debt, so the wage slave is only slightly better off. We should be against this process not only because it costs US workers jobs, but because it is a violation of the human rights of the individuals as well. The problem is that we need government reform that represents the people not the fictious entities known as companies. Until that happens the money is the most important thing.
Same here. I tried college, but I was already too advanced when I enrolled and I literally bored myself out of the place. I've never had a college degree or needed one and I've worked solo, my own company, and even with fortune 500s. Generally, I never was stopped at any point due to not having that paper but I have lost to others on experience on a particular platform or whatever. Fine, I can deal. =)
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/congressman-mistakes-us-officials-for-indian-diplomats/article6251536.ece