Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

necro81 (917438) writes "Gaza's only power plant (see this profile at IEEE Spectrum — duct tape and bailing wire not included) has been knocked offline following an Israeli strike. Reports vary, but it appears that Israeli tank shells caused a fuel bunker at the plant to explode. Gaza, already short on electricity despite imports from Israel and Egpyt, now faces widening blackouts."

Comments

Radicalization

[mrspoonsi]

Israel is sure doing a good job in that area creating more enemies, if that is their intention, the plan is working.

Re:Radicalization

[i kan reed]

Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens(who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy).

But it would be silly to think that only Israel is making enemies pointlessly, as far as middle east politics is concerned.

Re:Radicalization

[mrspoonsi]

It is more to do with proportional response. Those rockets they have killed what 2 or 3? there are over 1000 Palestinians dead. You also have to consider that the Palestinian people as a whole are not Hamas, in the same way the Northern Ireland population were not the IRA. The UK did not resort to carpet shelling Northern Ireland to remove the IRA, because it would never have worked, the IRA would only get stronger. Ireland had segregation, it did not work, only by integrating the people can you bring them around and ultimately onto the same side. For every innocent non-terrorist killed, that will recruit many terrorists.

Re:Radicalization

[i kan reed]

Don't want to call people living in their territorial boundaries their whole lives "their own citizens"? Fine.

Their enslaved subjects then.

Re:Radicalization

[ZX-3]

A comparison with the IRA has its limitations: The IRA mission statement was not the destruction of the entire UK.
The last time the existence of the UK was threatened, it actually did attempt to continuously bomb its enemies.

Re:Radicalization

[Jahta]

Did they now?

Perhaps you should read other propaganda than you normal intake and see what other parts of the world is thinking.

Right now Israel is facing a lot of problems, it seems like they very well knew that Hamas in fact did *not* sanction the kidnappings; also Israel seems to have left out important informations regarding the kidnapping in order to step up the conflict with Hamas.

Quite so. And furthermore, rather than doing the normal criminal investigation thing (collect evidence, arrest likely suspects, bring them to trial, etc), Israel decided that they "just knew" who did it and sent the Israeli Airforce in to flatten their neighbourhood. Israel was very quick to jump on the bandwagon of George W. Bush's "war on terror"; label all your enemies as terrorists and use that to justify whatever you do to them.

To put that in some context, how would the international community have reacted if the British government (during the Irish "troubles") had sent the RAF to bomb neighbourhoods in Belfast or Derry because "we think there are some terrorists there"? It wasn't acceptable then and it's not acceptable now.

Re:Radicalization

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean, "proportional response"? The kids in Gaza keep on lobbing rockets until Israel says "enough is enough". And then the kids go "whaaaaa Israel is meeeeaaaaan to uuuuus". And hey, it's working, for lots of people are buying the marketeering. Because nobody could kill themselves just for a bit of good press, now could they? Just like nobody would willingly blow themselves up to make a political statement. Oh wait....

If you actually go look at what they do, you might note that Israel sends both phoned warning and a "knock on the roof" before a strike (does hamas phone ahead where they're going to strike? well?) only to find the roof full of civilians right after the warning. In contrast, the rockets hamas sends get picked up and word gets sent out to the target so that the Israelis can find shelter, and they do.

So I really do think that comparing casualty numbers here, when they're competently kept low by Israel and intentionally driven up by hamas, and yes they're deliberately trying to get their own killed for the press value, is a little disingenious. Unless you don't mind parrotting Hamas propaganda. Because that is what it is: Propaganda, very very bloodily so.

Re:Radicalization

[Xest]

The whole reason Hamas runs Gaza is because Palestinians elected them, and subsequent infighting resulted in the largely Hamas loyal Gazans ousting Fatah and pushing them to the West Bank, or just outright killing them.

So it's a bit of a cop out to pretend that civilians in Gaza can't be blamed for Hamas - they can, they voted for them, and they supported the ousting of the far more moderate and reasonable Fatah, those who supported Fatah were killed or fled to the West Bank.

So Palestinians in Gaza share an awful lot of the blame for Hamas is actions - they actively create and support the environment in which Hamas can do what it keeps doing.

Which isn't to say I support Israel either, their provocations such as arbitrary raids and continued provocative settlement building and land seizure in the West Bank where Palestinians are more moderate and are behaving is just asking to cause trouble too, but let's not pretend that Gazans are largely innocent, sorry to Godwin the argument, but they're ultimately no more innocent than the Germans in the 30s who voted for and support the National Socialists. If you vote for extremists you have to take responsibility for and accept the repercussions of doing so.

Re:Radicalization

[Anonymous Coward]

Your perception of proportional is just an opinion, an opinion based on an oversimplification of events.

Hamas calls for Israels destruction. If given their way, they would commit genocide on every Israeli out there. They get rockets from Iran and Sudan smuggled through the Sinai in order to attack Israel. The rockets have no chance of ever doing serious damage to Israel, they are a terror weapon. Their purpose is to cause fear and panic in the Israeli population to disrupt the Israeli government. When fired, the Israeli government has no choice but to respond and try to destroy the launchers and shut down the tunnels.

Specifically, Hamas places the launchers of these rockets in heavily urbanized areas, next to schools, hospitals, and other civilians. Their aim is to have the launcher destroyed but cause significant civilian casualties amongst their own people in order to get people like you around the world inflamed against Israel and turn public opinion away. Specifically they're looking for the global Muslim public opinion, as it makes them viewed as the victim and Israel the heartless monster, which brings more foreign fighters to support them and encourages foreign support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various emirates.

So when you say 2-3 vs 1000 you are completely oversimplifying the situation. Israel has conducted a very limited ground operation with the objective of wiping out smuggling tunnels; they are not indiscriminately shelling Gaza population centers. Their airstrikes are targeting the launchers but invariably there will be misses, and because Hamas uses it's own people as sacrificial lambs and bullet shields, there will inevitably be large civilian casualties.

But, you know, just gloss over that. Just gloss over the fact that Hamas is now the legitimate ruling party of a sovereign Palestinian nation, and yet violates the Geneva Conventions on a regular basis. They build tunnels into Israel to smuggle in operatives to conduct kidnappings and murders and suicide bombings. They acquire long range artillery, place it in their own population centers to use their own people as shields, adn then use them to target civilian population centers. Their fighters bear no markings, no uniforms or even a badge of sorts to identify them as such. But yeah, because Israel constantly has it's territory violated, it's people killed, and it's cities attacked with rockets that their response is somehow the aggressor here. The only reason the death toll is so lopsided is because of the capabilities and discipline differences between the two, but if this were an even fight you'd be seeing more like 1 million dead Israelis. Intent of the aggressors matters more than capabilities.

Re:Radicalization

[Xest]

"So what do you think should Palestine's response to the constant checkpoints, blockading of their ports, airport and border crossings, as well as the occupation and continued confiscation of their land by Israel should be? "

Whatever it should be, launching rocket strikes on civilian population centres is most definitely not it.

Yes the way Israel treats Gaza is wholly unacceptable, but Gazans should take a leaf from the book of those in the West Bank and focus on peaceful resistance. That gives them the moral high ground.

It's worth bearing in mind that part the reason Gaza is so heavily blockaded right now is because Hamas was also attacking Egyptian soldiers in support of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood's violent resistance to it's overthrow forcing Egypt to shut Gaza's southern borders. If Gazans were simply sticking to peaceful protest then whatever the Israel do to blockade them the Egyptians would be letting food and supplies in right now. There are two borders in and out of Gaza and Gazans have successfully pissed off those controlling both of them with violence.

Gazans have made enemies with both their neighbours with persistent violent action and that's led to their isolation. Their isolation has become their excuse to start being even more violent which has now led to destruction of their infrastructure and widespread suffering.

For all the wrongs of the Israeli and Egyptian regimes it should be blindingly obvious to Gazans by now that the response to oppression by their enemies most definitely isn't aggression if they actually want to improve their lives.

The only reason Israel can get away with attacking Gaza in the first place is because there's substantial military infrastructure to attack. If Gazans disarmed then Israel would have absolutely no grounds to strike it - just like Israel does not strike Palestinians in the West Bank precisely because Palestinians there have learnt that non-violent opposition is a far better starting point for improving your situation.

Re:Radicalization

[SJester]

Poor analogy. Hamas has been trying very, very hard to kill lots and lots of civilians. They're just not very good at it but something will get through eventually. A better analogy is if that schoolyard bully keeps shooting at your house with a 22, but so far you've stayed away from the windows and your dog has kept him out of the yard. It's still not a way to live and you are under no obligation to endure it for more than... I don't know, five years? And then yes, you are completely welcome to go burn the guy's house down. Knock on the door, politely ask his parents to leave, text them, call them, leave a note, and then fire a warning shot. But yes, you can burn his house down and kill him. Because he has been trying extremely hard to kill you.

Re:Radicalization

[Richard_at_work]

(Please don't give Iran as an example for anything relating to democracy or human rights)

Why not? Because Iran doesn't 100% conform to your standards across the board?

Re:Radicalization

[Charliemopps]

So, threatening extermination=bad, carrying out extermination=less bad. Got it.

It's all bad.

It's like watching your 2 drunken uncles accuse each other of stealing too much whiskey. At first you defend the one because you saw him steel the whiskey, then you realize the others been sneaking it to. Now they're in a full brawl on the living room floor in the middle of Christmas dinner, their kids (your cousins) are terrified and rooting for their respective fathers and you realize in 20 years those kids will be on this very same floor, having the same brawl, and all you can do is stand back and wonder why life is so screwed up.

Except... with tanks and rockets.

Re:Radicalization

[chipschap]

Everyone can say whatever they want, but this much is worth repeating: If Hamas, etc., disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel disarmed, they would be utterly destroyed.

Re:Radicalization

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

I'm old enough to remember Nasser and the 7-day war, and Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the resulting mess it caused, even to this day. For forty years I've been shaking my head at Israeli intransigence. Eventually, maybe someone will come forward in Israel who realizes that "give us everything WE want up front, and then we'd perhaps be willing to sit down and talk about and maybe even consider what YOU want" isn't really an effective first-offer negotiating position.

I will cheerfully admit that Israel has a right to exist, and to defend itself. However, it seems that every time they "go over the line defending themselves" they end up occupying territory that didn't formerly belong to them, and never leaving, which only further exacerbates an already powder-keg situation.

I'll also cheerfully admit that everyone in that part of the world is fucking nuts, driven by religious extremism and centuries-old resentments, and completely immune to reason or compromise.

The real "Israeli" problem is the propaganda war that conflates the Israeli government and the Jewish people, and the world has been falling for this transparent trick for 70 years.

Re:Radicalization

[joocemann]

What you mean is that Israel doesn't consider what is 'currently' Gaza to be its own terriitory -- but that its own territory expands inch by inch at the crest of a bulldozer, and that any 'living beings' within that expansion ought to move to Gaza or die. Is that what you mean?

Lets at least keep reality on the table here.

This might actually kill more than the bombs

[i kan reed]

Depending on just how freshwater is distributed in Gaza, and the infrastructure demands it has, this could mean a lot more heat exhaustion, and water-borne infection related deaths.

Even a smallish percentage of people being affected is a huge number of people dying in a high temperature densely packed urban environment.

Re:This might actually kill more than the bombs

[timrod]

It will also likely cause the bombs to kill more people. A lack of power will cause people to leave their homes and try to find somewhere that has clean water or air conditioning, which means a higher density of people packed into a smaller area. This means higher death counts when Israeli missiles inevitably hit another civilian area, as they've been doing since the start of this war.

Re: This might actually kill more than the bombs

[SJester]

No, a war crime is intentionally targeting a civilian population, such as launching explosives at population centers. It is not a war crime to strike at a launch site or munitions depot. I'm not sure if it's a war crime to establish that site or depot inside a school (twice so far according to the UN, who is not exactly motivated to care), or inside a mosque (once, to my knowledge) or inside a home (dozens of them.) But when you need to stop the war crimes and destroy a launch site, what do you do to limit civilian casualties? Warn them every way possible and then limit fire, which is precisely what Israel has done. What Hamas has done in turn is herd civilians into the line of fire. Should Israel hold their fire? Are they obligated to shelter Hamas' civilians in addition to their own? You're welcome to dispute this. There is ample footage of Israeli warnings followed by civilians crowding the rooftops. Just as there is footage of gunmen turning fleeing civilians back into targeted areas, and two UN reports prior to this war of Hamas using child labor (160 dead) to dig their tunnels. This is not Dresden. Realize that this is what war looks like when when side uses restraint but must proceed, and the other side caulks the gaps with bodies.

Don't allow missils to be fired...

[EzInKy]

...from your territitory and chances are good that you won't get missles fired back at you. Sign a document to that effect and you will most likely have peace.

Re:Don't allow missils to be fired...

[silas_moeckel]

That is the point of the blockade isn't it? Getting Gaza to capitulate and figure out it does not hold the upper hand. They are perfectly capable of leveling Gaza and frankly have more than enough reason to do so. They want a neighbor that will not attack them and will work aggressively to stop terrorist from doing the same. The Gazans are free to elect somebody that is willing to and can do just that or hit there current people with enough cluebats to make it happen.

Re: Nuke those terrorists

[NoImNotNineVolt]

I can see how the people of Gaza could think so.

They see Israel as an outside force that periodically comes through town to kill everyone. They see Hamas as the only party willing and able to answer Israel's violence with some Palestinian violence. Whether or not that view of the situation accurately corresponds to reality is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is, the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options.

Until the Israeli administration can find a way to change that perception (hint: continuation of the violence, marginalization, and blockage is unlikely to accomplish that goal), I expect continued support of Hamas and a continuation of desperate rocket attacks on Israel.

Re: Nuke those terrorists

[Danathar]

One person, one vote, one time

Re:Please Explain This Crap

[Himmy32]

If you read this thread, there is rarely support for Hamas. But not that doesn't sanction the killing of children or shelling schools by Israel. The citizens there can't leave basic necessities like concrete to build houses or basic foodstuffs like fruit are blockaded.

People have the right to complain about abuses on both sides. Either way the only things coming out of the current conflict right now is suffering of innocent children. Both sides should be ashamed.

Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem

[benjfowler]

The (very Muslim) Egypt is also blockading Gaza.

Explain that away, smartarse.