Nevada Construction Project Could Be Tesla/Panasonic Gigafactory

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Nevada Construction Project Could Be Tesla/Panasonic Gigafactory

Posted by timothy on Thursday July 31, 2014 @04:44AM from the speculation-in-the-hills dept.

cartechboy (2660665) writes "Earlier in the week we heard that Tesla and Panasonic had reached an agreement to build the gigafactory together, and today that became official. Now it seems that things are farther along than anyone thought. In fact, construction of the plant might already be secretly underway in Nevada. This is of course interesting as Tesla hasn't officially announced where the gigafactory will be built. Something called Project Tiger is currently underway east of Reno, and there's a lot of construction workers, heavy equipment, and a heavily guarded fenced barrier around the site. The volume of dirt being moved is 140,000 cubic yards, which matches the gigafactory dimensions given earlier this year by Tesla. Is it possible that Tesla's actually building the gigafactory before even announcing its location? It seems so, yes."

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Doesn't surprise me by corychristison · 2014-07-31 04:49 · Score: 5, Insightful

This does not surprise me at all.
Elon Musk doesn't eff around. When he says he's going to do something, he does it.
1. Re:Doesn't surprise me by Anonymous Coward · 2014-07-31 05:13 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I was out near there last weekend. It's a massive project. The locals "know" it's the Gigafactory. Shhh, don't tell anyone!
2. Re:Doesn't surprise me by TWX · 2014-07-31 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  And when it was rumored that Chrysler was introducing another brand in the early 2010s, we "knew" that Plymouth was coming back. It didn't. RAM was split from Dodge instead.
  
  I wait until either the formal announcement or the signs go up. Until it's official it ain't official.
  
  I watched some of that movie that Scorcese made about Howard Hughes last night. I couldn't help but draw parallels to Elon Musk, both in the secretiveness and the balls-to-the-wall approach when committing to a decision. We'll have to see how this plays out.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
3. Re:Doesn't surprise me by michelcolman · 2014-07-31 05:48 · Score: 2
  
  Well, at least it's one of them. I read they were already going to break ground in multiple locations while waiting for the final decision and approval. So this doesn't mean that the actual factory will be built there. Quite a bold trade-off, actually, wasting some money by starting to build in several places that may end up not being used, just to avoid having to wait for politicians to make up their minds. Elon doesn't like to waste time.
  And who knows, those locations may end up housing gigafactories as well, just at a later time.
4. Re:Doesn't surprise me by The+Snowman · 2014-07-31 16:28 · Score: 1
  
  And when it was rumored that Chrysler was introducing another brand in the early 2010s, we "knew" that Plymouth was coming back. It didn't. RAM was split from Dodge instead.
  Wow, news to me. Seriously, I am not being sarcastic. I just went to dodge.com and RAM Truck was an option: but it took me to a different site with a warning that I was leaving dodge.com. I was not aware of this until this evening.
  
  --
  24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
And it's already closed by patlabor · 2014-07-31 04:53 · Score: 5, Informative

As reported from the same news site the following day:
http://transportevolved.com/20...
1. Re:And it's already closed by SailorSpork · 2014-07-31 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  So this site, which according to the article was behind schedule and missed every major milestone, is basically closed as soon as the Panasonic partnership was announced. Maybe this site (and its mismanagement) did not meet Panasonic's needs, as they are supposed to be contributing major amounts of capital and equipment, so much so that this site had to be scrapped. /end speculation
2. Re:And it's already closed by timeOday · 2014-07-31 05:38 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Does nobody remember this headline from a few months ago? Tesla could start on Gigafactory in 2 states, then cut 1:
  
  "We are going to proceed with at least two locations in parallel, just in case one of them encounters some issues after breaking ground," Musk said. He said Panasonic was likely to be Tesla's partner in battery production.
  The fact that construction started and then stopped makes it sound more like this is that - who else would do such a thing?
3. Re:And it's already closed by Nimey · 2014-07-31 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  That's... wow. To have the money to throw away on a partially-completed factory like that.
  
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  Hail Eris, full of mischief...
  
  E pluribus sanguinem
4. Re:And it's already closed by Dr.+Spork · 2014-07-31 18:26 · Score: 1
  
  It is possible that this is just an interruption of work, while Musk brings in new contractors who can actually keep deadlines. According to the article, the fired construction crew missed all their construction milestones. That could be the reason for the layoffs, not a cancellation of the plans.
5. Re:And it's already closed by Dr.+Spork · 2014-07-31 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  It's also a pretty tough negotiating strategy. If the governor A doesn't match the bid of governor B, Musk actually fires a lot of governor A's constituents, and the whole thing is egg on his face. Since governor A doesn't want that, he might decide to offer Musk some terms that are actually bad for the state, but will cause less personal blowback for the governor than the mass firing would have. But then there's governor B has the same incentives, and also doesn't want headlines about mass firings in his own state. He might actually decide to accept an even worse deal for the state, so as to avoid the bad headlines and instead look like a hero. So this sets up a race to the bottom which could easily save Musk more money than he spent on the cancelled construction project.
6. Re:And it's already closed by Neil+Boekend · 2014-07-31 18:51 · Score: 1
  
  Not throw away. He is betting he'll need another gigafactory in a few years and then he'll have a foundation ready to build on.
  
  --
  Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
7. Re:And it's already closed by Sproggit · 2014-07-31 19:16 · Score: 1
  
  "Throw away" ....
  How naive.
  The non primary sites can be sold off with preferential state ordinances and permissions intact, at a more than nominal profit.
  They would also have achieved their primary goal of maximising the same same ordinances, permissions and supply lines for the primary site through competitive leveraging.
  Nice chess move.
Not exactly a secret by Anonymous Coward · 2014-07-31 05:00 · Score: 1

This has been common knowledge in the Reno area for months, and has been reported on by the local paper (Reno Gazette Journal). The workers are under a NDA, but it's too large a secret to keep.
Work was halted last week, unclear what the significance is. But the grading (i.e. dirt-moving) is substantially complete. There is a widespread rumor that this site has been rejected. Also a rumor that the CEO of Panasonic visited the site last week.
It seems like Tesla is playing various State governments off each other for tax breaks. But they have, at least, spent a lot of money to date in the Reno area.
Headline trifecta by timeOday · 2014-07-31 05:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

I was going to write something snarky about the silliness of getting excited about this one factory, of all things. But it really does hit all the right points, doesn't it: (1) the manufacturing industry in the US, (2) the geopolitics of our oil addiction and resulting involvement in the middle east, and (3) environmental harm from fossil fuels.
Morgan Stanley is excited about the potential use of gigafactory batteries for home energy storage and grid independence, and thinks they might make more on that than on cars. (I would have thought good old lead acid car batteries were cheaper for this?)
1. Re:Headline trifecta by mean+pun · 2014-07-31 05:21 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I have long suspected that Elon Musk is trying to provoke other companies into competing with him, exactly because he thinks that what he is doing is important beyond just making some money.
2. Re:Headline trifecta by bluefoxlucid · 2014-07-31 05:45 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Also, competition stabilizes the market by allowing your competitors to market the need (i.e. the Tesla is a novelty at best, not a serious product; when Chevrolet and Honda stop dicking around with their novelty cars and start telling us all how much we need electric cars, the Tesla suddenly becomes a serious product).
  
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3. Re:Headline trifecta by halltk1983 · 2014-07-31 06:47 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  You can't use car batteries in your home. They make toxic fumes. You'd have to use marine-quality sealed batteries. And at the scale for your home, you're talking real money, usually around $5000-7500 in just batteries. They're heavy, bulky and take up a lot of room. Just think of putting 20-30 car batteries in your home. Plus you'll need to replace all of them every 3 years or so. If they can make a battery pack for $10,000 that's a fifth the size, lasts 10-15 years, and comes warrantied for use in specifically that method... that's a really big win.
  
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4. Re:Headline trifecta by koreanbabykilla · 2014-07-31 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  They are not going to be making lead acid batteries for use with an ICE, they are making lithium batteries suitable for the cars they make, as well as stuff like electronics and home use. Side note; Car batteries work just fine, if you properly plan and have them somewhere with proper venting. Lots of people have solar/Lead-acid/inverter setups in their homes now. I would imagine it is the most common setup.
5. Re:Headline trifecta by rahvin112 · 2014-07-31 07:09 · Score: 2
  
  Not a serious product?
  He's test running all the manufacturing technology for an entirely new product category. Tesla scares the bejesus out of the car companies because he could very well come in from the side and own the entire industry because he's already patented all the technology needed to actually build these cars. Why do you think every time there is an incident with a Tesla car it makes the national news? You don't honestly believe that's just a coincidence do you?
  You can't engineer a massive toolchain change like this overnight, the electric car is a completely different animal and requires totally different assembly lines and engineering into how to build them the cheapest. The Model S is test running these assembly line issues, the Telsa Roadster was the demonstration platform. You don't build 25K cars a year as a novelty. To put this in perspective the worldwide sales for many of the luxury German cars are in the same number of cars sold (from 8K to about 30K is a typical high end luxury car).
6. Re:Headline trifecta by HornWumpus · 2014-07-31 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  Car batteries are good for about 6-10 deep cycles before they are done.
  You may not need sealed lead acid batteries, but you need deep cycle.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
7. Re:Headline trifecta by Daetrin · 2014-07-31 08:20 · Score: 1
  
  I have long suspected that Elon Musk is trying to provoke other companies into competing with him, exactly because he thinks that what he is doing is important beyond just making some money.
  Just out of curiosity, have you ever read Michael Flynn's Firestar series? There are so many little bits from there that reminded me of SpaceX at when i reread it recently. Though apparently it's not just SpaceX, but everything Elon Musk is involved with.
  
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  This Space Intentionally Left Blank
8. Re:Headline trifecta by mean+pun · 2014-07-31 08:44 · Score: 1
  
  Hi, No, I have never read that series. What Tesla reminds me of is the Forever Car in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... by Clifford D. Simak.
9. Re:Headline trifecta by mean+pun · 2014-07-31 08:52 · Score: 2
  
  Tesla scares the bejesus out of the car companies because he could very well come in from the side and own the entire industry because he's already patented all the technology needed to actually build these cars.
  So what does Telsa do? It starts a patent pool http://www.teslamotors.com/cn/.... To me it's another sign Elon Musk is not only motivated by the money (or simply is willing to take a more long-term view than mainstream industry).
10. Re:Headline trifecta by MattskEE · 2014-07-31 09:38 · Score: 1
  
  Competition is also good for business because it increases the total size of the market, increases availability and reduces costs from 3rd party vendors (batteries, motor drives, charging stations, etc), and reduces costs of specialized labor (eventually) by growing the labor pool of engineers who design electric vehicles.
  Having a big part of a small market is not a good way to go. I think Elon's goal (in addition to any altruism on his part) is to grow the entire market and ecosystem for electric vehicles while holding onto a decent (but perhaps smaller) market share.
11. Re:Headline trifecta by LynnwoodRooster · 2014-07-31 12:02 · Score: 1
  
  Tesla scares the bejesus out of the car companies because he could very well come in from the side and own the entire industry because he's already patented all the technology needed to actually build these cars.
  Electric cars existed well before Tesla, and continue to exist outside of Tesla. Many of their patents are very niche focused, things like charging plugs (there are plenty of alternatives, used in high power connections for decades) or the like. As far as scaring, Tesla still hasn't turned a profit on their cars - they only "make" money if you include the Government redistribution of carbon taxes - which is set to expire in about 2 years. Tesla not making profit on their cars by then? Good luck after that...
  
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12. Re:Headline trifecta by Neil+Boekend · 2014-07-31 18:59 · Score: 1
  
  Don't deep cycle them. Never deep cycle litium chemistry batteries. That kills them. 5-95% is sufficient and the voltage drop, while a disadvantage in many simple circuits, provides a clear indicator of the remaining capacity.
  If the hexagonal lattice anodes work out as hoped the duration could be increased significantly.
  
  --
  Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
13. Re:Headline trifecta by HornWumpus · 2014-08-01 03:41 · Score: 1
  
  5-95% is deep cycling for a lead-acid car battery. They like to start the car then get recharged.
  Your cheapest option for a decent deep cycle lead acid battery is going to be a trolling motor boat battery.
  Lithium is still cost prohibitive for non-mobile applications.
  Any good sized battery bank is a hazard. Think of it as an arc welder that's always powered up.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
14. Re:Headline trifecta by LynnwoodRooster · 2014-08-01 10:43 · Score: 1
  
  Tesla's profits are not based on GAAP. Furthermore, if you remove their income from selling electric car credits, they lose a lot of money.
  
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  Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
If they're smart, they're avoiding NIMBY by magarity · 2014-07-31 05:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

For every person who wants the factory built nearby for the economic impact, there's a certain ratio of people who don't want it built nearby for whatever reason; traffic, worries about industrial accidents, whatever. So if they're smart, yes, they're already way too far along building to get it stopped by protests.
1. Re:If they're smart, they're avoiding NIMBY by Anonymous Coward · 2014-07-31 05:09 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The Reno Tahoe industrial park is in its own area ( the largest industrial park in the world ), you won't hear about a lot of local residents upset by construction noise / traffic. Its got its own dedicated highway to connect I80 and 395, so truck traffic doesn't clog up the freeways. This is an amazing opportunity, I better clean up my resume.
What about water? by admiralh · 2014-07-31 05:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

Considering the water issues the West is currently having, is it really a good idea to build this in the middle of a desert?

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Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
1. Re:What about water? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-07-31 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  You don't have to read the article, just search in it for the word "water".
  
  Water is not a concern, even in the desert around Silver Peak, as the lithium bearing brine is underground and pumped to the surface where the water evaporates to expose the lithium minerals for further processing.
2. Re:What about water? by alva_edison · 2014-07-31 07:24 · Score: 2
  
  Well, it's north of 36 deg 30', so that makes it North in one sense.
  On the other hand, it's located at about 39 deg 30' N, so it's closer to the southern border of the U.S. (about 34 deg 30') than to the northern border (49 deg).
  
  --
  He effected a bored affect.
3. Re:What about water? by HornWumpus · 2014-07-31 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  Injection molding. Water is used as a heat carrier, but isn't typically evaporated.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:NSA Jiggabyte Storage Facility No. 17 by ColdWetDog · 2014-07-31 06:35 · Score: 1

Nothing new....
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
--- Shakespeare.

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Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
That's just down the street from me by James-NSC · 2014-07-31 07:01 · Score: 1

I think I may go out and do some drone recon on it this weekend, see what's really going on. As long as I just use my GoPro to record video onboard and LoS for tracking, but don't use my FatShark it's not a drone and it's OK, right FAA?
Re:This Will Be Made Illegal by GameboyRMH · 2014-07-31 07:17 · Score: 1

Don't get ahead of yourself, we don't know how much of the labor is automated yet. Maybe with Chinese robots.

--
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
a mystery wrapped in an enigma by mbkennel · 2014-07-31 08:04 · Score: 1

Oh, yeah, there are more people in a few ZIP codes in LA than in the desolate deserts of Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico.
The "giga" factory is supposed to be up and by mark_reh · 2014-07-31 08:47 · Score: 1

running in 2017. If it really is "giga" it damn well better be under construction already.
Build a what? by superdave80 · 2014-07-31 09:34 · Score: 1

In all seriousness, why is this being called a "Gigafactory"? How does this differ from a regular factory? Did I miss the kilofactories and megafactories?
1. Re:Build a what? by the+phantom · 2014-07-31 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  They are building DeLoreans, which require gigafactories (pronounced with an initial soft G).
  
  --
  Rhapsody in Numbers
2. Re:Build a what? by queazocotal · 2014-07-31 12:01 · Score: 1
  
  As I understand it - the aim is to make of the order of 10^9 - one billion - lithium cells a year.
  That's enough cells to go in 200K small electric cars, or about 60K of the high capacity Tesla 85kWh packs.
3. Re:Build a what? by slew · 2014-08-01 06:28 · Score: 1
  
  The name 'Gigafactory' is a shortcut for a battery factory capable of over a gigawatt-hour of annual production capacity.
  In the case of Musk's proposed factory, it's projected to be capable of producing enough battery cells to store 35GWh of energy in a year. Since Tesla's Model S have 85kWh batteries, if you want to make a new line of car that sells more than 10,000 cars/year you can probably use a factory with the capacity of a Gigafactory (or multiple production lines of a smaller factory).
  Some folks estimate Panasonic's current battery factory production capacities (multiple lines in multiple cities for multiple car companies) as being only able to support slightly north of 28K cars/month where the proposed single Gigafactory should be able to supply batteries at the rate at a similar rate to all existing capacity. Presumably there is some economy in scale (Tesla is estimating ~30%) which is what they are counting on...
Re:This Will Be Made Illegal by theshowmecanuck · 2014-07-31 12:03 · Score: 1

thank you

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I bet... by AlCapwn · 2014-07-31 13:26 · Score: 1

They're building it at the Burning Man site. That place is chock full of engineers.
It's too early to break ground by thejman78 · 2014-08-01 04:20 · Score: 1

Considering that there are five states competing to host this factory - including California, which is quietly trying to put together a package that would fast-track environmental study requirements and provide tax incentives - and that the competition hasn't even heated up yet, it seems unlikely that this is the gigafactory.
Tesla and Panasonic need to keep everyone guessing, as that's the very best way to secure more tax benefits and incentives.
Theme Park by Dabido · 2014-08-01 04:47 · Score: 1

Actually, it's Elon Musks own Battery Theme Park, with hookers, and blackjack. In fact, forget the batteries!!!

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Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
1. Re:Theme Park by Winkkin · 2014-08-01 06:17 · Score: 1
  
  Ehh! They scoff at the prophet, until it starts raining electric automobiles!
Move Silicon Valley? by bbsalem · 2014-08-01 08:41 · Score: 1

Sounds to me like the Carson Sink would be a good place to move Silicon Valley firms, too. Here, let me help you out, which way did you come in? Maybe then we could grow produce in Santa Clara Valley again, once they dig up all the concrete and knock down the tite-ups; hey wait for the next M. 7.2 quake on the Calavaras Fault, that'll help. But then you'd have to clean up all the Superfund Sites left by the electronics business before you could replant a single plum tree.
So, Carson Sink is a no-way-out drainage, water checks-in but doesn't check out; sounds good for Google and Facebook, Maybe it is better for charging batteries, Lake Mead power might be cheaper than PG&E. That might be good for all those toxins made by battery and electronics technology. Good Riddance.
On the other hand I do realize that although Big Data application for Social Media seem invasive and abusive, that the same tools are used by science to handle huge datasets, like those generated by synoptic telescopy for astronomers, one such project will generate 3 Tb a night for 10 years! Wouldn't it be nice if Lick Observatory could be used for spectroscopy when the lights of Silicon Valley go dim and fade?