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Every Day Is Goof-Off-At-Work Day At the US Patent and Trademark Office

McGruber writes An internal investigation by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office found that some of its 8,300 patent examiners repeatedly lied about the hours they were putting in and many were receiving bonuses for work they did not do. While half of the USPTO's Patent Examiners work from home full time, oversight of the telework program — and of examiners based at the Alexandria headquarters — was "completely ineffective," investigators concluded. The internal investigation also unearthed another widespread problem. More than 70 percent of the 80 managers interviewed told investigators that a "significant" number of examiners did not work for long periods, then rushed to get their reviews done at the end of each quarter. Supervisors told the review team that the practice "negatively affects" the quality of the work. "Our quality standards are low," one supervisor told the investigators. "We are looking for work that meets minimal requirements." Patent examiners review applications and grant patents on inventions that are new and unique. They are experts in their fields, often with master's and doctoral degrees. They earn at the top of federal pay scale, with the highest taking home $148,000 a year.

43 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. Patent US 99063520 A by AlecDalek · · Score: 5, Funny

    Patent US 9063520 A: The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
    A method and system for under-performing approval of patents.

    1. Re:Patent US 99063520 A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Patent US 9063520 B: The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
      A method and system for under-performing approval of patents on the internet.

  2. Where do I sign up? by aitikin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Seriously? You're posting this here without telling me how I can get this job? From the sounds of it, I could do it in the background while at my real job.

    --
    "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    1. Re:Where do I sign up? by pla · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You need to pay some one off to get that job

      Nah, I foresee a large number of vacant positions in the very near future - Particularly as we get closer to November 4th.

      Of course, any applicants will probably need to actually work for a month or two until everyone forgets about this and moves on to the next government outrage...

    2. Re:Where do I sign up? by HornWumpus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Keep watching, you will learn a lot.

      I foresee nobody losing their job, except the snitches. Government work.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Where do I sign up? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From the sounds of it, I could do it in the background while at my real job.

      It has happened before. Albert Einstein developed the theory of relativity while goofing off at the Swiss Patent Office.

      http://xkcd.com/1067/

    4. Re:Where do I sign up? by grepninja7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason is that it is hard to fire a federal employee is so that the positions are not used to reward political allies and contributors every time someone new is elected.

    5. Re:Where do I sign up? by Dishevel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? I'm sorry, but when was the last time any IRS official pulled a gun on someone and told them to hand over their money.

      Try not giving them the money. Then you will see.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    6. Re:Where do I sign up? by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really? I'm sorry, but when was the last time any IRS official pulled a gun on someone and told them to hand over their money.

      If you don't pay, IRS will put a lien on your house. If you still don't pay, the house will be sold — and police (with guns) will arrive to kick you out from it.

      Don't be stupid disputing the obvious — all governments world-wide collect revenues at gun-point. It is normal and the only way possible. It just means, the monies thus collected should only be used in situations, where weapons would take place: enforcing laws and fighting foreign enemies.

      You mean like Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, AIG [....]

      Corporations don't have the means of coercing people to buy their services, don't even bring them up here.

      After all, the benevolence of the private sector is so well known we sing their praises every day because they never, EVER take advantage of people or stick it to us in their quest for profits

      Again, corporations are not (normally) in a position to coerce anybody to buy their services — only the government is in such a position and its role in our lives must be minimized, not perpetually expanded.

      Your link is to a description of some outrage committed by Comcast — which is funny, because the company is a book-case example of crony capitalism: it (and other cable giants) grew out of government's idiocy of giving them monopoly, and their CEO today plays golf with the President.

      Corporations are not any nicer, than they have to be — in order to compete. But monopolies — like Comcast — don't have anyone to compete with. And the government is the biggest and harshest monopoly of all. One can cancel their Comcast bill — even if it can be infuriatingly ridiculous. Now try opting out of Social Security...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Where do I sign up? by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > The real problem is that firing an underling reflects poorly on his manager(s). This is also the truth everywhere, of
      > course, but in normal enterprises there is this dirty and otherwise reprehensible "profit" to think about, so a bad
      > employee can still be fired even if the manager's record gets hurt in the process.

      I think you are looking at the wrong problem. Yes, this exists but, I look at it this way:

      If there is an underperforming employee who just isn't doing the work, there is, most likely, a problem with THAT employee. It may be one you can work with or fix, but, very likely it is localized; and there is a chance, either way, that replacing him fixes it.

      If many employees are not doing the work however, the problem is likely not the employees but a more general systemic issue relating to management or work structure; and replacing the employees will likely be about as effective as rotating your tires because the battery stopped charging.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    8. Re:Where do I sign up? by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wishful thinking. Federal employees are practically unfirable. For one, they are — bizarrely — unionized (to protect them from their employer — us), but that's only part of the reason, for corporations with unionized workforce still do fire bad workers, even if it is harder for them to do so than it ought to be.

      This is just simply not correct. I know. I worked for Uncle Sam for a while. While it is difficult to fire federal workers, it's not impossible. Firing for cause can happen, although the more time a person has working there, the harder it becomes. And spare me the "they're in unions" argument. Unions do exist for federal employees, but at least where I worked in the Department of Defense, unions are a waste of money for most people. By federal law federal employees cannot strike (see Ronald Reagan vs. the air traffic controllers) so the union can't really do a lot in terms of collective bargaining. The only benefit I knew of that the union offered where I worked was that they had a supplemental insurance plan you could get through them that would pick up the consumer responsible charges of medical insurance and if you had a very expensive need, like major surgery, with such insurance you could get out of it paying nothing. I know of a case where a unionized worker was going to be fired for just cause. I don't remember what the guy did, but it was really bad and there was no doubt that he was guilty. The union called for hearings and drug their feet where it took a year to fire him but in the end the guy was fired. So other than giving you supplemental insurance or delaying a firing, that's about all a union could do where I worked. The majority of our workforce was not part of any union.

    9. Re:Where do I sign up? by danbert8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You'd want to opt out of Social Security because it's a Ponzi Scheme. Or maybe because you can get better returns on your retirement dollars in a private fund. Or maybe because you'd rather buy gold for your retirement savings.

      If you don't pay your mortgage than you are in violation of a contract and the bank goes to the government to bring guys with guns to kick you out as you are trespassing on the bank's property. It's still the government with the guns. Your bank can't have it's own private enforcement kick you out of their house.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    10. Re:Where do I sign up? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you like a military that will defend you? Yes. I'm tired of nation building nations that don't want it. Bomb them back into the 4th Century where they belong, and leave.

      you like clearn water and air? Yes. I'm tired of being told that I should cut my CO2 usage by people flying around in Jet, traveling in SUV motorcades and living in 10000ft2 mansions.

      you like a social safety net that keeps the weakest from falling too far? Yes. But I'm tired of people gaming the system and making me pay for it. Safety Net is not permanent solution.

      you like a postal system? Not really. It is becoming more obsolete every day. I currently get three or four legit pieces of mail a week, and most of those could be Electronic instead.

      you like you drivable roads? Yes. Many of the roads I travel are becoming less so, as government redirects fuel and vehicle taxes to pay for the "safety net" mentioned earlier.

      you like food safety inspections and standards? Yes. And for the most part, the FDA has done an average to below average job.

      you like fireman to save your house, and police to catch bad guys? Yes. I don't have much complaint about Fire, but Police are pretty bad these days. And I wish they would actually lock up criminals rather than spending time on victimless crimes.

      Finally, all taxes are regressive. YES people should pay taxes, but only voluntarily. BY Voluntarily, I mean by using products or services that are NOT required for living. Taxing Income is nothing short of indentured servitude of the masses, and is evil. And nothing you can say will change my view of it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    11. Re:Where do I sign up? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What really irritates me is that the monster has gotten to the point where it just can't go away because such a large percentage of our population has gotten so damn lazy that they now plan on relying on Social Security for their income during retirement.

      It is not "lazy" for people who could not opt out of a system that ate away at their income, which they were subject to their entire working lives, to expect the promises to be kept.

      Would you be happy if you were told that mandatory deductions from your pay (and an equal amount the employer could have paid to you were it not for his mandatory contribution to the same place) were going to cover a layaway plan for a nice new Lamborghini when you retired, and then be told when you actually do retire that there is no Lamborghini and you're a lazy ass for not having bought your own car -- with the income you had left over after paying into the layaway program?

      You want to disband social security? Fine. Give me back every penny I paid into the system that you think I shouldn't get anything back out of and we'll call it even. I'll be nice and only expect 2% interest on my money.

  3. There's hope... by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... that one of them will find the successor of General Relativity in his goof-off time :-)

  4. Cue the 'We can't find the emails tape' by grheller · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Congress will investigate this of course and I wonder if thePTO will have the balls to say they can't find their emails.

    1. Re:Cue the 'We can't find the emails tape' by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Congress will goof off for 3 months, then rush to pretend like they were investigating it.

  5. Interesting by emagery · · Score: 3

    I know someone who works there, and they complain quite a bit not just about some of the other workers but also a lot of the folk semi-external to the office on whom they have to rely. Not exactly useful information, I know, but it makes me wonder.

  6. Hopefully they can be replaced by pattern matching by spacepimp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can only hope that these experts rushing to get their reviews done quickly at the end of the quarter can be replaced by pattern matching AI. Their results if rushed have huge implication in the million s and billions for certain industries. Also, is there any tracking of who has which patents to review? Is the person filing the patent ever allowed to have communication with the reviewer? I would imagine there is plenty of room for bribery or pay off to let a certain patent review through.

  7. This is a shining example by halivar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    of why small-government types are not completely out of their fucking gourd.

    1. Re:This is a shining example by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      of why small-government types are not completely out of their fucking gourd.

      Size and quality are not, necessarily, related. They assume that small government would be staffed with highly qualified and highly motivated people, yet forget there only about 550 people in the US Congress (Senate+House) and they haven't gotten anything done in years.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    2. Re:This is a shining example by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They assume that small government would be staffed with highly qualified and highly motivated people

      By no means! A small government will attract the same sorts of people; the difference is the evildoers can't hide in the massive, inscrutable cogs of the machinery. Accountability is easier when there are fewer places to pass the buck.

  8. Not quite accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I used to work at the patent office, and I can tell you the article doesn't quite understand the way the office works. Examiners are required to get a very specific amount of cases done for the hours they work or they are fired. They seriously total up the hours worked and require X number of cases done based on it. At worst what is happening is that people are slacking off at the beginning of a quarter and then working extra at the end to make up for it. But it's not like they never do any work. If someone doesn't make their counts, as they call it, they are pretty quickly in trouble.

    So the worst here is that some examiners might be doing a bad job at the end of a quarter because they slacked off at the beginning of it. Even still, there's a lot of other reasons why someone might get less counts at the beginning of a quarter. They might be working on their harder cases early, for example, because they're not up against a deadline. Or they might be hanging on to cases they've worked on just to think them over -- since they aren't really due yet. So it's hard to say what's really going on here. There are definitely some bad examiners but there's no way people are never working or they wouldn't get their counts and they'd be fired.

    1. Re:Not quite accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Examiners have a special pay scale (http://careers.uspto.gov/Pages/Misc/SalaryRates.aspx) which has both grades (05, 07, 09 ...) and steps (1-10). As an examiner with a Ph.D. you would start at GS 09-1. Every 18 months with good performance reviews and you move up 1 step i.e. GS 09-2. Every grade has an associated 'production' requirement which is basically the number of hours you are given to complete a case. As you move up you are given fewer hours per case. I think you can move up in step, at least to GS 12 every year so long as you meet the production requirements for promotion. To get to GS 13 and GS 14 you have to undergo a special review period which lasts 14 weeks and if i recall you have to be gs 12 and 13 respectively for 18 months before you can begin that review program. Each time you move up in Grade you are placed in the step with the next highest salary. For example, a GS 09-4 would be promoted to GS 11-1. GS 14 is generally the top end for patent examiners but if you have 15 years experience you can be eligible to move to GS 15 after yet another special review and with even further increased production requirements. It typically takes between 5-8 years to make it to GS 14, depending on what grade you start out at.

  9. Wow - good thing by kilodelta · · Score: 3, Funny

    I was recruited by a friend for a patent examiner position. Glad I declined because instead I get to spend my time surfing slashdot instead.

  10. Obvious by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Funny

    I would have thought this Obvious given that Einstein developed the theory of Relativity, revolutionizing nearly every field of science, all while working there.

    Let's see... light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity...
    er...
    Icons with round corners? Approved... ...which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body...
    One click purchase? Whatever... approved...
    That is, light in vacuum propagates with the speed c...

  11. Re:8300? Let that sink in a moment by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Informative

    There aren't 8300 people working on each patent application. The USPTO received 609,052 patent applications last year. There are (roughly) 200 working days in a calendar year (accounting for sick leave, vacation, an minimal training/in-service time). Each patent receives (on average) less than 3 man-days total for your diligence in determining the patent background, current state of the art, etc.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  12. Deadlines. . . whoosh! by physicsphairy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They are experts in their fields, often with master's and doctoral degrees

    As a product of academia I am professionally trained to get things done on the cusp of deadlines. I'm not joking. Both on the student and instructor side there is simply a great deal of latitude. There's no time management enforced in any form except for "deadlines," so that's when you learn to get things done.

    As lovely of a thought as it is that entering the workforce will automatically instill a newfound sense of responsiblity and dedication to all a graduates (and I'm sure it does for at least a few weeks or so), I for one am not surprised that working unsupervised at home at a government job with quarterly deadlines results in people observing the same habits they have for the past 6-10 years.

    Admittedly, I wouldn't want to rush a result such that it is inadequately reviewed either, and I don't know if patent clerks have projects which would actually take an entire quarter to investigate, but the first thing I would do is have them sync all of their edits/notes/research in a way to make them reviewable. It's amazing how a little bit of transparency encourages people to make regular progress.

  13. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by phorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh, I'd imagine that private workers goof off too. The thing is, when they do it jeopardizes whatever project they're involved with, with monetary loss to the company.

    In the case of the USPTO... well I'd imagine you've ready some of the stories of the horrific patents that keep getting passed (and how the USPTO claims they're sooooo overburdened). It's the whole country (and some would say other countries as well, see Apple V Samsung) that's suffering from *that* mess

  14. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ever seems to be missing the point. Sure, nearly everybody goofs off occasionally. Have I ever spent most of a work from home day goofing off? Sure. Have I ever dialed into a meeting and played video games because the meeting was totally useless for me? Yup. Ever encompasses many many things.

    The thing is, the article isn't about how this one time a guy at the Patent office spent a day goofing off. Its about how goofing off, not doing the work, and then rushing the report is standard operating procedure.

    You do get that there is a difference between something that someone did or something that happened and... how business is normally conducted. Like, its one thing to go out for lunch with your coworkers and all get drunk one day....its quite another to do it every day as a matter of course.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  15. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by Dishevel · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I do not have to pay for some tool at IBM. If they want to pay people for crap then that is their business.

    But it is our business when public employees are being paid good money for bad work. I can understand how you believe differently. Wait. I can't. I can see no reason that your belief that the public has no interest in ho the people they are paying to do a job are performing that job.

    The fact that you would state something so obviously wrong makes me think that either you have an agenda or are incredibly stupid.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  16. Hopefully they can be replaced by pattern matching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work at the PTO, and we do have pattern matching programs to help find prior art, they are mostly worthless because interpreting claims to match prior art is an abstract process. If you don't believe me read some patent claims and try to figure out what the 'broadest reasonable interpretation' of those claims would cover, its a nightmare. Applicants are certainly 'allowed to have communication' with us as the examination process involves a lot of back and forth with examiners trying to convince applicants to narrow their claims and applicants asking us to explain our interpretation of their claims and the prior art. As far as bribery goes I have never heard of or experienced any kind of bribery, what we typically experience is more of a brow beating from applicants who disagree with us.

  17. Brick-layer mentality does not scale by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a "significant" number of examiners did not work for long periods, then rushed to get their reviews done at the end of each quarter.

    Where does this deadline cycle NOT happen?

    Managers and/or auditors could spend more time monitoring employees, but then you have to pay the monitors and hire more managers, and also monitor the monitors to make sure they are monitoring correctly, creating a recursive bloat in inspection time.

    Further, the monitors and monitor of monitors would have to be experts to know if employees are really spending quality time. If you just count time staring at the screen, typing, or reading research, you can't know if it's relevant to the task unless you are an expert in that specialty also. Industry-specific auditors are going to be pretty expensive.

    Plus, recruiting is harder and/or more expensive if potential specialty employees find out their ass is always under Big Brother's watch.

    Brick-laying is relatively easy to monitor. Intellectual tasks, not so much.

    Sometimes it's just cheaper to accept some slack than add bureaucracy layers to prevent all slack.

    (It's similar to weeding out welfare cheats: Republicans want to heavily monitor welfare recipients, but the cost of monitoring and related lawsuits could be more than the welfare cheating, making taxes even higher, which Republicans can't stand...or at least act like they can't stand.)

    Managers should be able to give bonus pay and/or penalties for productivity. However, in practice this often results in favoritism as managers judge based on friendship or kissing up rather than raw merit. Humans are just that way, in general.

    In short, no easy fix.

  18. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by edawstwin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Oh random government-worker hater modded up. Must be a Monday on slashdot.

    It's insightful because no private sector workers ever goofed off, or spent the "work from home" days, grazing from the fridge, playing halo. And no public sector worker ever ever rushed through a piece of late work and did a half assed job.

    Ever.

    As phorm pointed out, when a worker in the private sector goofs off, that can have detrimental effects on a company's bottom line, and the company can take appropriate action. If a public sector worker goofs off, time is lost, but there is no bottom line for a government agency to be affected. Sure, they all have budgets, but there are not many negative consequences for having bad employees. They'll usually get a few more bucks in next year's budget regardless of performance. And the travesty here is that we're paying them to do a bad job. Public sector employees should take their jobs even more seriously than private sector employees because every tax-payer is ultimately affected by their performance.

    I have no personal experience working for any government agency, but I did have a friend who got a job with the federal government after having worked in the private sector for many years. After about a month, his direct superior told him to take it easier because he was too efficient. If he stayed at the current level, many other workers would look bad in comparison, and the manager didn't want to have to explain that to his bosses. The manager absolutely could not get away with something like that at a competent profitable private company.

    --
    I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by not dying. - Woody Allen
  19. Cue Hypocrisy by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Funny

    Im just waiting to see how many people hop onto the "Goofing off at work? HOW HORRIBLE" bandwagon during work hours.

    Wait, crap.

  20. Cheap Salaries yields cheap talent by Prien715 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They earn at the top of federal pay scale, with the highest taking home $148,000 a year.

    That's not even the salary of a manager at Google (and don't even talk about benefits -- free food is amazing) -- and this is the highest of salaries. For a lawyer (law school is will run you over $100K by itself). Can you imagine why they may not have the best and brightest? With the new patent office opening in San Jose, why would anyone actually want to work for the USPO who has any amount of talent?

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
  21. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by edawstwin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Only $148k at the top of the scale? They probably get some benefits like health care, but they must be the dregs of Masters and Doctorates. I can't imagine taking such a pay cut, and I get 7 weeks paid vacation as well as a pension and health plan.

    It sounds like they get a helluva lot more than 7 weeks paid vacation every year. That's the whole point of the article.

    --
    I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it by not dying. - Woody Allen
  22. Re:8300? Let that sink in a moment by Formorian · · Score: 3, Informative

    Um how is 609,052/8300 = 7? My math shows 73.379759...., so 73.4ish.

    Did you add an extra 0 and make it 83,000?

    And therefore 73.4 * 3 = 220.2

    So yeah.

  23. Shenanigans by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a reviewer for USPTO, I can tell you... I just diarrhea though my queue, spending less than 10 seconds on a typical application... 2: Applications that are a refile of a previously rejected one.

    No Examiner calls themselves a "reviewer"; it takes more than 10 seconds even to approve an application; and no Examiner would refer to continuations or RCEs as "refiles".

    Suspicious post from anonymous poster that just happens to confirm every anti-patent bias is suspicious.

  24. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by ArcadeNut · · Score: 5, Funny

    I love on $39,000 a year, and you can't imagine making less than $150,000?

    What's wrong with this picture?

    You're spending too much on the ladies?

    --
    Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
  25. Re:Hopefully they can be replaced by pattern match by thesupraman · · Score: 3, Informative

    This.

    Unless of course you are Apple, IBM, Microsoft, or one of the other 'special' applicants who have their own rubber stamp (sorry I mean priority clearing house) for their patents.

    Eventually we gave up applying for US patents because, especially as a foreign company, the prior art that gets presented is just an insult.

    Really, we had them tag teaming two sets of prior art back forward, NEVER ONCE replying to our queries as to why it was applicable, just switching to the
    other, and waiting until the end of their allowable response time to do this each time, until the window for acceptance just ran out.
    Maximised their fees though, they were sure to do that..

  26. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by mjwx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh, I'd imagine that private workers goof off too. The thing is, when they do it jeopardizes whatever project they're involved with, with monetary loss to the company.

    You've never worked before have you.

    Some people have turned slacking off into a full time job. As long as the company is making money, they dont get noticed. The worst slackers I've worked with were in the private sector (and not unionised, union people know they have a job to do). They're normally in middle management/admin positions that dont get monitored for performance. Think about all the people who call pointless meetings, extend meetings with pointless conversation/questions and when you come to them needing something, they've got a huge tale of woe explaining how they're too busy to help (yet can take a 2 hour lunch).

    As long as the P&L statement looks good, these people never get noticed... If the P&L statement starts to look bad, they're normally not the first ones fired either.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  27. Re:Public servants don't give an arm and a leg by pepty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For all of the jokes about the DMV, every time I've been there the workers know their jobs and move things along just fine. Its the folks who couldn't be bothered to make an appointment, didn't bring the right paperwork, or hate the law and are (very loudly) requesting that it not be applied to them who end up spending lots of wasted time at the DMV.