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Patents That Kill

wabrandsma (2551008) writes From The Economist: "The patent system, which was developed independently in 15th century Venice and then in 17th century England, gave entrepreneurs a monopoly to sell their inventions for a number of years. Yet by the 1860s the patent system came under attack, including from The Economist. Patents, critics argued, stifled future creativity by allowing inventors to rest on their laurels. Recent economic research backs this up."

31 of 240 comments (clear)

  1. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Post!

    Why was this modded down? This is probably his single accomplishment in life. Let the man have this one thing!

  2. And this is the same for copyrights. by WolphFang · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And this is the same for copyrights.

    --
    leather-dog muksihs
    Blog: @muksihs
    1. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think we need reasonable limits on just about all "intellectual property". For copyrights, the content creator's remaining natural life plus ten years, or 40 years total, which ever is longer. For patents, there should be a requirement to produce and sell the idea in the patent after a few years or to demonstrate a reasonable attempt to do so, and that different kinds of inventions should have different lengths of patent protection.

      I want people to get paid for their work, but at the same time, if that work has caused significant cultural change then there should be a point when that work is released to that culture, instead of licensed to that culture for a fee.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by meerling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since a stated reason of the copyright and patent systems are to encourage creation, how does letting someone collecting money off of one thing their entire life, much less after they are dead, encourage them to continue to do more work to keep getting their paycheck?

    3. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by ATMAvatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should a copyright ever extend past the life of the author? For those 10 years you propose after the author dies, what additional works will that author create as a result of the additional copyright protection? And will zombie works be good enough to be worthy of copyright protection?

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    4. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think we need reasonable limits on just about all "intellectual property".

      TFA makes the opposite point that, at least for pharmaceuticals, the time limit is too short. After a drug is patented, it must go through a long series of testing, and once it is approved, there are only a few years of profit before the patent expires. So Big Pharma concentrates on drugs for critical illnesses, like late term cancer. That way they can run the test and get a die or no-die result quickly. They have little incentive to develop long term preventative drugs, because decades may go by before the result is clear, and the patent has long since expired. Since preventative drugs are often far more effective, this is a perverse incentive.

      My opinion is that most patent durations should be shortened, and we should get rid of most patents for medicine, and find a completely different way to fund pharmaceutical R&D.

    5. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well for great feats of man, more investment is required. Could Pixar have been kickstarted for ToyStory 1? I think they went to great lengths because there was more money to be made.

      I agree there should be a limit on copyrights, but it shouldn't be much more than 10 years. At this time, people can use your characters and such, but guess what, after 10 years of the public enjoying something, it is a part of their life too.

      Finally, everyone remember radio? Radio was invented way before it was it actually became reality. Why? Because everyone had patents on different parts of the radio and they didn't want to collaborate. I hear it wasn't until around WWI that the government stepped in to be able to use it for the military.

      Anyone who thinks patents help the little guy haven't seen troll lawsuits smack little guys senseless. Anyone who thinks patents help the little guy haven't seen big corporations crush their competitors they perceive as a threat.

    6. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem I see with any life+ based duration, is it selectively rewards people who have a big hit that keeps coming back into print early in their careers, and then live a long time afterwards, and the converse of that is it punishes the author who doesn't have much success until late in life, or worse, gets his or her career cut short by a fatal illness. You've suggested a system that (sort of) fixes the later case, but it doesn't address the first half of the problem. Also, any life plus system is going to look like a better deal if the author has heirs he or she cares about, and less of a deal if they don't. If the whole goal under the Constitution is to provide an incentive, we have to look very carefully at how some people may or may not feel "incentivised".

                To show you how your system might have worked if it had been in effect all along, lets take two Fantasy/SF/Horror authors:

                First, H. P. Lovecraft. His first real hit of a story was 1926, with Call of Cthulhu. Just about everything that got reprinted when he first gained posthmous popularity was written after that. Then he died of Bright's disease, in 1937. Under the system of that time, most, if not all, of his work was still in copyright. But, it was still the great depression, and after that, there were the wartime paper shortages, so Life +10 would leave his work coming out of copyright just about when there starts being a chance of it getting printed. With your 40 year clause, some of his original copyrights would have lasted until about 1974, by which time he was starting to be reevaluated, and effectively expired just about the time his work finally caught on. Under the system actually in effect, most of his work was still under copyright until well after the first film adaptation (Dean Stockwell and Sandra Dee in the Dunwich Horror). He did not have any direct heirs, and probably would not have believed as he wrote his last works that there was any chance he was leaving a literary estate that might actually become worth more than the cost of a cup of coffee. His closest heirs were a pair of aging aunts, and by the time there were payments, they went to very distant relatives indeed.

              Second, Michael Moorcock. He starts writing professionally at 15, and some of his biggest successes were written by the time he was 20. In his 70s now and still going strong, he'd enjoy life +10 on most of his work, and it's not inconceivable that Life +10 might apply even to his most recent books. I don't know if he even has direct heirs, but he has been married a couple of times and had some living relatives, so I suppose it's at least somewhat likely there are children, or perhaps nieces or nephews. Under the existing system, he would theoretically have a longer period of protection, but that may not matter in practical terms. The older US or British systems, current law, or your system are likely to leave him about the same, financially, but current law is, in theory, better for him. However, it's a mystery to many people why his work hasn't been optioned more by Hollywood, to the point of a completed film or six. Your system just might ding him financially, if there are people who are hoping to get film rights cheap after he dies - they could just wait 10 years and let copyright on such Characters as Elric of Melnebone expire completely. Rationally, a shorter term may matter not at all or a great deal to him, but not just for the money.

       

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    7. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by Sarius64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      OMG What will Capital Records and Disney do if they could only own their IPs for 10 years? Billionaires would starve and their kids would only have 15 lifetimes worth of money to inherit! Perish the thought!

    8. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by davester666 · · Score: 2

      except big pharma games the system, where they release a drug under patent protection, then shortly before the patent ends, they re-patent the drug to cover some other condition, then say that generics can't make the drug for the first condition because they can't prevent it from being used for the second.

      and in Canada, we are helpfully extending our patent time limits under the still secret Canada-EU trade agreement that Harper just signed. The Canadian people are too stupid to understand it, so we can't find out what he agreed to.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    9. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Even for copyright it's sometimes way too long. And when a company is registered as the creator, what happens then?

      For work of fiction the copyright is OK if it's until 2 years after the demise of the author (which shall be enough to bring a closure), but outright abuse of a work should be protected for longer (People doing porn or nazi propaganda of children's books etc.) [Insert Godwin here] However Satire and Humor tweaks of the works is already OK on works under copyright, and is not a big deal anyway - even though some people don't understand that.

      For computer software the copyright should end no later than 12 months after the public support of the software ends. This means that since Windows XP no longer is supported it should be "open" for use sometime next year if that rule was followed. This is also more in line with reality - software companies aren't usually really making money out of old major releases anyway. And if they think that they will, then it will be in their interest to keep long support terms.

      For patents I agree that they are stifling innovation, and there's no prize for second place - even though independent patent applicants can file for patent almost simultaneously. The patent system today is more a monopoly situation, and also too lax in allowing patents for obvious solutions.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    10. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Revoking the copyright at the death of the author would create a reason to have the author killed.
      In fact it is retarded to have it connected to the authors death at all. It should be from the creation of the work or when it was made available to the public only.

    11. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      Characters are trademarks.

    12. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by redeIm · · Score: 2

      Revoking the copyright at the death of the author would create a reason to have the author killed.

      That's just ridiculous. How often does that actually happen in practice? Or is this just more fearmongering, much like terrorism or child porn?

      But there is another way to fix that 'problem': Have copyrights last 0 years.

    13. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Well, it is no longer about driving creation, it's about corporate profits.

      Has been ever since the Sonny Bono and Disney Corporate Copyright Extortion Act, because copyrighted things under corporate ownership is 25 years longer than you and I would enjoy.

      This is rent seeking, entrenched in law, and treated as a natural right of corporations. This is much more about guaranteeing shareholder value and executive bonuses than driving any form of creativity.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    14. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by budgenator · · Score: 2

      Revoking the copyright at the death of the author would create a reason to have the author killed.
      In fact it is retarded to have it connected to the authors death at all. It should be from the creation of the work or when it was made available to the public only.

      It would be far cheaper to kill most patent trolls than to defend against them, but I haven't heard of them being murdered no matter how deserving they may be.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    15. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Could Pixar have been kickstarted for ToyStory 1? I think they went to great lengths because there was more money to be made.

      Well, Toy Story 1 came about because a certain Steven P. Jobs had a few dollars to throw around, and with the relatively non-success NeXT was having, decided to buy a stake in the struggling Pixar and take it in a new direction.

      (Pixar was making computers back then - they sold a package for animation and visual FX). Jobs (yes, THAT Jobs) decided that no, let's do a feature film instead. The Pixar shorts you see about including Luxo were demo reels showing the power of their computers, while Toy Story was effectively their new direction from selling computers and software to doing motion pictures.

    16. Re:And this is the same for copyrights. by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

      You know what industry thrives on rampant copying and 'intellectual' 'theft'? Fashion. No copyrights, no patents and it's a veritable bonanza of creativity. And of course knock offs that look almost as good as the originals. Knock offs which actually drive more purchases of the originals. People can purchase a knock off today and later when they have the ability, they still want the brand name.

      So, no, you don't need copyright to have robust creativity and rewards for that creativity.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  3. In a nutshell: by Type44Q · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices.

    - Thomas Jefferson

    1. Re:In a nutshell: by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2

      It was the writing style at the time. Strunk and White were not alive back then.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    2. Re:In a nutshell: by chromaexcursion · · Score: 2

      Not specifically a written law.
      The practice started in Rome in the first couple centuries BC. Powerful men were granted license to exclusively produce something. Sometimes it was because they were doing something new. Sometimes because they owned the mine. Patent didn't mean new, just verified.
      The meaning of words change over time.
      As for the patent system, England did not invent it. Look to Italy.

  4. Absolutely by s.petry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wish I could find the link, but no luck so far. There was a speech given to the house of lords in England in the 1700s where an attorney argues that copyrights are only beneficial to the copyright owner, which tends to not be the artist where the copyright is intended. Print shops would demand copyright to print a book, but of course they would pay the artist a few pennies for their troubles. The speech covers a well known English auhor's family woes after his death. Even though he was a well known author and sold enough books that he should have been wealthy, after he died his family was left destitute. The reason was because a publisher owned all of his copyrights and his family never received a penny in royalties.

    Of course the copyright holder (publisher) was suing the house to extend copyrights, because it's so beneficial to the economy.

    A bit off topic I realize, since TFA is about patents. The thing is though, the arguments stay the same. It is not like John the inventor gets to hold his patent and benefit, it's more like John the inventor's patent was 90% owned by the company he worked for because they sued him for the rights.

    Some things never change. This has a lot to do with why they try and make backroom laws like TPP, CISPA/SOPA type laws, etc.. Rational people would point out the flaws, so in the US we just make the discussions a matter of national security so people don't know. Thank goodness a few companies got on the bandwagon with CISPA/SOPA, but the next versions are not being discussed publicly and are works in progress in the Senate and House.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:Absolutely by Calavar · · Score: 5, Informative

      I found it for you: It was Lord Camden speaking about Donaldson v. Beckett. The full case proceedings can be found at http://www.copyrighthistory.co.... Lord Camden's commentary is quite long, so I won't copy/paste it here, but you can find it on the linked page if you search for "Lord Camden spoke as follows"

  5. the patent on killing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The patent on killing should have expired ages ago. That undead bastard Caine has been resting on his laurels ever since.

  6. Re:1860 by Calavar · · Score: 2

    I know you're trying to point out a supposed grammatical mistake, but yes, the Economist did exist in 1860. A quick Google search suggests that it was in print since 1843.

  7. Prior art by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's a word-for-word copy of an entire post made by someone else. The copyright for it will expire in 2150, give or take, unless more copyright extensions are added before then. Until then said post is infringing on copyright and must be taken down.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm pretty sure that I AM am the original author!

  8. Re:Alternatives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    You replace patents with nothing. Empirical research has shown that patents don't do squat and lead to less overall innovation and wealth creation than without patents.

    There are many ways to research it empirically. You can compare/contrast countries where one country disallowed patents in a particular field. You can compare/contrast where one country had a stronger patent regime than another in the same field. (It goes without saying you want to look at countries with similar industrialization levels). You can compare across fields in the same economy by, for example, looking at innovation in a field with weak--or no--IP protection with a field with stronger protections. And you can use historical or contemporary data.

    Anyhow, there are many sources of empirical data to judge the efficacy of patent policies. It turns out that when you do rigorous research and look at all the data, patents are a net loss across the board. The only place where patents arguably make sense according to empirical data is in pharmaceuticals, but only because without patents companies provably couldn't afford the regulatory cost imposed upon them by the FDA. But FDA regulation is has been shown to be too strict and unnecessary at current levels. So we'd be better off with a market free of patents (more, cheap drugs with higher efficacy), as long as some other regulations were changed.

    You can read a short book describing all the arguments and with a summary of the empirical research. It's called "Against Intellectual Monopoly", and one of the authors also wrote the paper mentioned above.

    See http://www.amazon.com/Against-Intellectual-Monopoly-Michele-Boldrin/dp/0521127262/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    Free version is here: http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm

    People love to use hypotheticals to defend patents and IP in general. But at the end of the day it's an empirical question, not a question of theory. Common hypotheticals always have unstated premises which even in classical economics are not necessarily true. When you look at the empirical data, those hypotheticals and their premises are shown to be bogus.

  9. pharmaceutical patents by silfen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Overall, I agree that patents don't help much with innovation. However, I think pharmaceutical patents, unlike most other patents, do, in fact, encourage innovation. The fact that they encourage the wrong kind of innovation (minor variations on existing drugs) is not a problem with patents per se, it's a problem with the costs and risks of FDA approval: it's much safer to develop a small variant of an existing drug than to develop a completely novel drug for untreatable diseases.

    Sorry, guys, you can't have it all: lots of innovation, safety, and low cost. Pick any two.

  10. Re:Figure, Figure, Figure by Required+Snark · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Since the end of the Cold War Russia and the USA have been following the same economic/political path: control by oligarchy/elites. In Russia the balance is that the government holds power over the oligarchs and they do the government's bidding. In the USA the government does the oligarch's bidding. Given a long enough time the two systems will differ only in insignificant details.

    Russia never had long period of democracy, so the slide to authoritarianism does not have that far to go. The USA has a much longer democratic tradition (except for women, racial minorities, Native Americans, etc.) so it it taking longer to eliminate democratic forms of government.

    Still democracy is slowly dieing in the USA, as evidenced by end of independent journalism, most criminal court cases being decided by plea bargains, the increasing costs of elections and the dysfunction of the legislative branch, the polarization of the Federal judiciary (the Roberts court decision on the Voting Rights Act) and the inability of the President to make deals with the Congress. (Note to Republicans: when there is a Republican President and the Democrats control the House and/or Senate, they will be just as unwilling to cooperate in running the country as in the current division of political power. Don't whine when you get bit by your own strategy.)

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  11. Patent reformers just have the wrong perspective by felixrising · · Score: 2

    No No NO! You are obviously not earning enough money from patents to appreciate the money that is being earned and therefore you must be wrong! We must fight this attack on patents!