Berlin Bans Car Service Uber

An anonymous reader is just one of many who have pointed out that things don't look good for Uber in Berlin. Berlin has banned car service Uber, which allows users to summon a ride on their smartphone, for not offering drivers and vehicles licensed to carry passengers, or full insurance cover, the German capital said. The ban takes immediate effect and Uber risks fines of up to 25,000 euros each time it violates the city's Public Transport Act, Berlin authorities said in a statement. Uber said on Thursday it would appeal against the decision, accusing Berlin of denying its people choice and mobility. "As a new entrant we are bringing much-needed competition to a market that hasn't changed in years. Competition is good for everyone and it raises the bar and ultimately it's the consumer who wins," said Fabien Nestmann, German General Manager at Uber. Undaunted by the setback in Berlin, Uber has launched uberTAXI in Hong Kong.

Comments

Uber is quite retarded

[angel'o'sphere]

accusing Berlin of denying its people choice and mobility. "As a new entrant we are bringing much-needed competition to a market that hasn't changed in years. Competition is good for everyone and it raises the bar and ultimately it's the consumer who wins,"
There is a law. German wide. Which says: to transport people commercially you need a "commercial transport license". Just like a pilot with a PPL may not commercially transport persons but needs a commercial transport license. Heck, even if you drive a mini bus with more than 7 passengers _privately_ you need a "personell transport license".

This is not an "anti Uber law", this is law valid for every citizen or corporation.

Trying to make a law suit against current valid law is just idiotic. Try to change the law instead, well if you can.

If Uber wants to do business they should "hire" 'professional drivers' who have the same professional education other 'cap' or 'bus' drivers have.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[bayankaran]

The govt in this case doesn't care about that, they want their licensing money back.

You are right. But then without tax and revenue from licensing how will the government function?
We can always argue whether a specific regulation is needed or not, but are you are using the usual "small government", "starve the beast" idea?

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[Trepidity]

No, they haven't. If Uber was willing to themselves shoulder any liability, that would be one thing. But they claim that individual drivers are responsible for any liability that may arise in an accident, and that Uber is not responsible. Of course, conveniently enough, the average driver nowhere near enough assets to pay out any liability claim in the case where they caused an accident. That is precisely why insurance is required.

Re:Uber is quite retarded

[ZaphodHarkonnen]

They can consider themselves a sovereign state for all that means. Uber provides a commercial transport service even if they're simply contracting out the actual transport to someone else. So it should be up to them to make sure that the drivers they use meet the regulations of the country. Nothing here is saying that Uber cannot provide transport services. Just that they need to provide them under existing regulations. Now if they do not wish to do this they have two paths of recourse. Either not enter the market, or lobby for a law change.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[moronoxyd]

Bull. As a citizen of Berlin I'm very happy that the government regulates people working in the transport business.
I don't want to be driven in a bus or car that doesn't conform to safety regulations or by a driver that has been working so many hours that he is sleepy or otherwise not able to safely bring me from A to B.

And if Uber and Lyft ignore the regulations already in place then they have no business doing business.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[westlake]

Hahaha, you make it sound as if "being licensed" has some implication of advanced skill.

and maybe you don't know as much as you think you do:

The following are required by 1st time applicants for a Personenbeforderungsschein

Formal Application Antrag (obtained at the driver licensing office, usually the Road Traffic Office of the Community or Parish)

Personalausweis or passport (in combination with a valid personal registration)

Fuhrerschein (only the standard EU-Driving Licence is acceptable)

Medical Report from a Doctor specialised in ''Arbeitsmedizin'' or a Dr. with a qualification in ''Betriebsmedizin'' or a Report from a Reporting Institute for physical and mental driving competence. Info regarding which Drs. can do this is given by the Road Traffic Office. (The diagnostics relate to Stress, Reaction and Perception testing.)

Opticians Report or Certificate

Medical confirmation of Physical and Mental ability.

Fuhrungszeugnis (Criminal Record Report) with NO entries (for Official use only)

Extract from the Central Traffic Register Kraftfahrt-Bundesamtes in Flensburg

Ortskenntnisnachweis Proof of Knowledge (for the relevant district for Hire cars in Communities with population over 50.000).

Questions are to be answered regarding Places of Interest, Public Buildings, City districts. Generally routes will also be tested by giving starting and finishing points and allowing the candidate to describe the shortest route. Usually the Taxi company intending to employ the candidate will assist with the preparation for this test.

Knowledge test for taxi drivers in Germany. Is there one? Advice on working as a cabbie.
[Germany's English-speaking crowd. May 2010]

Re:Uber is quite retarded

[moronoxyd]

I can't say how things are done in other countries, but I would assume that just like in the US the company follows the laws of that land.

Except that the regulatory body here in Berlin responsible for public transport says they don't.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[mvdwege]

Hahaha, you make it sound as if "being licensed" has some implication of advanced skill.

In Germany? You bet it does.

I wish people would stop projecting American incompetence at running government services on the rest of the world.

Re:Uber is quite retarded

[Trepidity]

If you have personal auto insurance and you drive the vehicle commercially, the insurance will not pay out: driving commercially violates the terms of personal auto insurance, so you voided the policy. So you are uninsured.in that case, despite claiming to be insured. If you drive commercially, you need commercial auto insurance to actually have a policy that is valid.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

This is not one of those things where you need to "compromise" so that some people are disadvantaged SO THAT another group may be disadvantaged.

Unless you're the person in the lane next to the Uber car when its high-mileage, improperly-maintained components break, or the person crossing the road in front when the Uber driver falls asleep, and then you get to be in the accident too.

Regulations on commercial drivers exist for a reason, and it's not just for the benefit of the passengers inside a commercial vehicle.

Providing an alternative that is competitive merely by virtue of not following the same rules as everyone else isn't an improvement. Compete on the same basis as everyone else, and then if your service is otherwise better you can enjoy all the well-deserved support you like. Otherwise, you should expect regulators to close you down.

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[AmiMoJo]

Don't bother. The libertarian view is that everyone should check that the vehicle is safe and the driver competent before making a contract to be transported with them. Ideally when you get on the bus there should be a verifiable certificate of road-worthiness and the driver's licence, complete with a contract exempting the bus company from all liability for you to sign. Poor people can take a cheaper bus without the certificates, because basic safety is a personal "choice" (mostly influenced by the amount of money you have).

Re: Uber is quite retarded

[serviscope_minor]

Actually, I read it as assuming competence where there in fact is none. Europeans brag about how much testing they have to go through before they can get licensed, as if they all had to be exemplary drivers just to get a license. Now you're telling us that this isn't true, that the average driver isn't capable of driving a car. Which is it? Make up your fucking mind.

I did my test in London and lived in New Mexico for a few years. If you believe the English driving test is not substantially harder than the New Mexico one then I have a bridge to sell you. The England one is one of the hardest in the world and has a very substantial failure rate.

And in Germany, commercial drivers are licensed and required to have an EVEN HIGHER standard of driving than regular drivers.

And now for the bragging. Here is a table of countries by road fatalities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Germany and the UK, two countries with strict licensing of various sorts are several times safer than the US when it comes to driving. And those are two countries with a very high population density. If you bring in lower density countries with more adverse driving conditions like Norway the stats get even better.

Basically stricter driver licensing provably works at making the roads safer.

Uber alles? Nein!

[Spy Handler]

at least in Berlin...

There's more to EU transport than cheapness

[Anonymous Coward]

These guys seem to be copping a whole lot of shit just for trying to make transport easier for users.

No, these guys are copping a whole lot of shit for trying to offer no-standards transport in nations that have minimum standards for their public transport services.

It's not good enough to be cheap in Europe if you don't meet basic standards. The EU has a lot of consumer protection laws designed to look after their residents (now there's a thought), a concept that is completely foreign in the US where it seems that only company profits matter.

If you want to do business in Europe, you don't have any magic right to ignore European legislation and import the US rulebook instead.

Re:There's more to EU transport than cheapness

[qpqp]

How about that airplane you travel on?

You mean, like Airbus,Iliushin, Tupolev, and a few others? Or are you talking about Sir George Cayley?

Enjoying that computer you're using? Americans invented that.

Have a look at this please.
Europe's got the brains and US has^H^H^Hhad the money.

Re:There's more to EU transport than cheapness

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what did YOU do? And to be fair: what did anyone here do to achieve what you said?
Just being born into US or some European country citizenship doesn't entitle you to anything.
You like the USA? Guess from where those founder fathers came. You like democracy? You should thank the Greeks. You like logic, as it is used in philosophy and the sciences? You should thank the Greeks, although the native cultures in middle and south America invented very similar concepts. You like your pretty fireworks on the 4th of July? You should thank the Chinese. You like your combustion engines? You should thank the Germans. You like your space program that put a man on the moon? Then you should also thank the ancient Chinese and nazi Germany scientists that invented the liquid fuel rocket. You like modern, digital microelectronics? You should thank a Albert Einstein, a German Jew. His Nobel Prize winning paper about the inner photoelectric effect laid the foundation for the development of lasers, which are used in the photolithography process since the 80s.
If you actually look at history then you will see that there were brilliant inventors all over the world, none if which are YOU or I. It just happens that the rest of the world is older than the USA and therefore had more time to make "history". Native Americans had their accomplishments as well. But apparently a lot of those cultures didn't regard record keeping in a similar way as the "old world", where history was rewritten by the victor as well.

Why can't we stop with the penis fencing, which don't even belong to us, and break it down to the underlying issue. Just like the US is allowed to make their own laws so are other nations. And if you want to do business with them you have to play according to their rules.

Re: There's more to EU transport than cheapness

[Frankie70]

> In Germany, insurance that covers passengers is mandatory for anyone driving a car.

Does the regular insuance cover the case where the car is used for commercial purposes as a taxi & the passenger is a paying passenger?

What are they complaining about?

[JanneM]

I don't know why Uber is complaining. All they need to do, after all, is to recruit drivers with a commercial license; require the vehicles to comply to commercial safety standards; and provide the needed insurance. It's not as if the deck is stacked against them - the other services they compete against all follow the same rules.

For my part as a potential user, liability is the real issue. I would never risk taking a car service where I'm not fully covered in the case of an accident. It's not just medical and other costs for myself; if the driver is not licensed you, as the one paying for the ride, may be regarded as co-responsible if your driver caused the accident in the first place. You want to risk hundreds of thousands of Euro in damages to save a few bucks on a taxi ride?

Re:What are they complaining about?

[angel'o'sphere]

In Germany, if they carry less than 8 passengers and if their vehicles are below a certain weight, then they don't need to take a different driving test.
That is incorrect. This is only valid if you don't commercially transport passengers.
If you actually do transport passengers comercially, you need an extra driving license, and you need the same extra license if you transport more than 7 or 8 people _non_ commercially (in one vehicle) like e.g. if you bring boy scouts into a camp. Every bus driver bringing kids to school has such a license!

outdated local geography test that has been rendered completely useless by mobile applications such as Google Maps Navigation and Waze.
Well, I usualy have trips that are not longer than 15 minutes, and I appreciate it if the driver does not need 2 mins to set up the navigation first, especially if the spelling of the target is odd.

In the US, Uber covers you for up to one million dollars.
Erm, do you actually own a car? I guess not.
My private, standard, insurance for my private car, with no intent to be used commercially is insured up to 10 million Euro (damage to persons). That is a very normal rate, I doubt you can even get a lower one.

My bet is that you'll probably have better coverage when you travel as a passenger/driver with Uber than if you were to drive yourself personally
Certainly not. Damage to yourself is not covered by your car insurance. That is covered by your health and/or accident insurance or 'out of job insurance' in case you can no longer work.

Did you even bother to read the GP's comment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see words like "skill", "competence", or "quality" in the GP's comment. So how the fuck is it making the implication that you've incorrectly claimed it's making? Oh, that's right, it isn't. Did you even read that goddamn comment before you replied to it?

The motivation behind such regulation is irrelevant. Maybe it's about quality. Maybe it's about money. Maybe it's about both. It doesn't fucking matter. What does matter is that the regulations exist, they're enforced against everybody, and if you're going to involve yourself or your business in such activities then you're going to have to abide by such regulations.

Please don't pollute our discussion with your bullshit about "implications" that obviously aren't even being made. If you can't handle the mature, intelligent, adult discussion we're engaging in here, then please drag your sorry ass back to reddit.

Re:Did you even bother to read the GP's comment?

[N1AK]

What happened to all the voices in those past Lyft/Uber threads talking about how stupid it was that some US cities were thinking of limiting these startups,

There's a difference between some cities trying to block Uber because it undermines the outdated medallion concept, and a city having reasonable requirements to offer a commercial transportation service and expecting it to be followed. You might feel that Berlin's public transport act is unreasonable, though I doubt you have any idea what's in it, but if the locals think that it is reasonable then it is perfectly reasonable for the government to expect companies to follow it. It seems that Berlin's issues are primarily that passangers may not be adequately insured and that Uber may not be checking that all drivers are licensed (which includes checks on criminal record, health and driving record) which don't seem unreasonable to me. I don't want services like Uber to accept drivers that meet a certain standard!

liability coverage is needed

[Joe_Dragon]

liability coverage is needed
http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...

victims should not be holding the bag when drivers like this have insurance that uses loop holes to get out of covering victims. Taxis and other "commercial transport license" drivers have insurance that covers them all the time.

Actually

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber was banned because it was missing the umlaut.

It's the law.

[DrYak]

It's just taxi lobbyists pushing back...

It has nothing to do with lobbies, or taxis reacting to Uber.

It's simply the law, and this law is much older than Uber itself.
It has always been there and still needs to be applied, even after Uber appears.
(Some other countries like Switzerland have similair laws).

If you transport people professionally (no mater if you're some minister's chauffeur, a taxi driver, working as a bus driver in the public transportation service, or simply driving a minivan with more than 7 passengers) the law requires that you have a special driving license and insurance companies require that you subscribe a different type of insurance policy (insurance is mandatory in EU).
Uber is note immune to the law. People get money to carry people around with Uber, they must therefore follow the state law.

This is not taxi drivers protesting against Uber because it's competing with them, it's simply the city ruling that Uber needs to play by the same rule like everybody else.

On Yer Bike

[GrahamCox]

Just get a bike. Berlin is brilliant for cycling. And if you need to transport something big, just call up any of the many taxi-like services that will take it home in a van for you.

Re:Average people just don't like hipsters.

[Noah Haders]

No real person has ever heard of "Lyft".

very true. except its a $3.5 billion company with revenues of $100 million / year and service growing 6% per week -> 20x per year, compounded. there must be a lot of unreal people out there.

Oversight and regulation

[pablo_max]

While I agree with you that most people cannot tolerate hipsters, I disagree with your assertion that most people will put up with unlicensed taxi drivers.
I travel all over Europe and Asian as part of job and for personal reasons and I have learned one thing..NEVER take unofficial taxis. EVER.
Oversight and regulation of certain industries are not a bad thing.

Re:Oversight and regulation

[N1AK]

I travel all over Europe and Asian as part of job and for personal reasons and I have learned one thing..NEVER take unofficial taxis. EVER.

Which is why I don't get the concern about Uber etc. I travel abroad plenty and finding out what official taxis are, how to make sure it is an official taxi, how to check they are doing what an official taxi should etc is a lot of work and still has risks. With a system like Ubers I know that the car I'm calling is part of their network, would be kicked off rapidly if they don't follow Uber's rules etc. I've only used Uber a couple of times and in places where I know the official taxis are legit, but I'd probably feel safer taking an Uber ride in Thailand than finding an official taxi.

Re:Oversight and regulation

[qbast]

Have you actually been to Thailand or you are just spouting prejudice? Official taxis there (especially in Bangkok) are great - clean, working AC, _very_ cheap (on meter with official rate).

Re:Average people just don't like hipsters.

[mwvdlee]

A hipster is somebody who would suddenly get a different taste if (and because) you'd like their taste.
They are people who so desperately want to be seen as different that they end up all being the same.

It's like how children want to be adults, but adults don't care about being adult.
Hipsters want to be interresting, but interresting people don't care about being interresting.

Who mods this tripe up?

[mjwx]

The driver in that case (who should be in jail) ran over the girl not because he was an Uber driver, BUT just because he was a negligent driver on the road at the time.

this is bullshit.

Bolding parts of it doesn't make is less bullshit.

Liability insurance for commercial drivers is mandatory in most places for this very reason. Further more in many places third party injury insurance is mandatory for all drivers for this very reason.

Maybe you in your libertarian delusions can go and explain to family of the girl who died because of this driver that it's a fact of life and they should be happy for that.

Furthemore INSURANCE WOULD NOT HELP, even if he had it. The girl is dead, period, full stop. There is no insurance payout here.

Actually there is a very big payout for death.

But what about the next time when a person isn't killed, just permanently disabled. You could go along then and explain it's a fact of life.

Or maybe the drivers could get liability insurance seeing as they're using their cars for commercial purposes. Then again, that would mean their services wouldn't be cheaper than a regular taxi.

corporations are always right

[Tom]

"As a new entrant we are bringing much-needed competition to a market that hasn't changed in years. Competition is good for everyone and it raises the bar and ultimately it's the consumer who wins,"

Says the guy who gets to profit. Follow the money - of course he'd say something like that. PR drones are paid for coming up with good reasons why their product is the best thing since sliced bread.

Actually, sliced bread is pretty awful, but that's a different story.

The market has changed quite considerably. German startups like MyTaxi are increasingly replacing the old and stupid middlemen with a nice mobile service that connects drivers and passengers directly. There's a bit of competition in that market as well. Then there are the modern car-sharing companies like Car2Go and DriveNow and some others, where you can take any of their cars wherever you find it and can drop it off wherever you go. No need to go to designated parking spots or something. They're basically like a taxi you drive yourself. In a few years, they'll probably have an autonomous car in the mix that you can call on your smartphone and it'll pick you up.

To say the market is stagnant is a bold piece of PR lies. There have never been so many options for personal transport, changing so quickly.

Uber is not as revolutionary as it makes itself out to be. But more important: They don't understand the European market, where american wild-west methods of just riding into town and taking what you think is yours by god given rights are not welcome. We have regulations and laws and rules, and we actually quite like them. They make our lives more calm and plannable. Europe has a different culture, less friendly to startups and hotshot ideas, but it also means fewer people crash and burn, and less collateral damage when they do.

If Uber gave a fuck, they could operate in Berlin. But their attitude - which was visible in other german cities like Hamburg where they also ran into problems - was basically "this is our cool business idea, go and change your laws if you don't like it". I'm not surprised that with that attitude, someone told them to fuck off and die.