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Knocking Down the Great Firewall of China
New submitter Nocturrne writes: The FOSS project Lantern is having great success in unblocking the internet for many users in oppressive regimes, like China and Iran. Much like Tor and BitTorrent, Lantern is using peer-to-peer networking to overcome firewalls, but with the additional security of a trusted network of friends. "If you download Lantern in an uncensored region, you can connect with someone in a censored region, who can then access whatever content they want through you. What makes the system so unique is that it operates on the basis of trust. ... Through a process called consistent routing, the amount of information any single Lantern user can learn about other users is limited to a small subset, making infiltration significantly more difficult." The network of peers is growing, but we need more friends in uncensored countries to join us.
You can't see a lantern from far away. They could have chosen a better name, such as Lighthouse.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
When will someone make a proxy-style program so that we can bypass our small monthly caps?
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
I do not want to be negative, but networks being based on "trust" and "people you know" work only to a certain size, then it breaks down under the own weight.
So this sounds like a pretty good thing while it's small, but it cannt be a big alternative or solution.
Very clever. While most of the volunteers will be the NSA, this won't provide much extra security, but at least you get plenty of proxy servers with practically unlimited bandwidth for free :-)
The NSA already taps most of the data somewhere along the route, but running the proxy servers could provide a bit of extra meta data, which helps them when sorting the recorded data.
Yesterday, Slashdot ran this story about China moving data inside the borders, and therefore presumably inside the firewall... it seems like they could turn the firewall off if they have everything they want there already.
Can anyone explain how this should make anything more secure? I do live in a country where there is internet censorship done by an ISP or anything yet, I would like to provide access through my connection but I cannot do that without signing up for an account with Google? Hmm...
Firewall knock downs require two sides... somebody wanting the content, and somebody willing to send the content in a way that passes the firewall.
Well, it's the weekend when US business isn't doing anything... I'm not sure who declared it "China Day on Slashdot" but it's not that unusual to have a SlowNewsDay on a Saturday.
The day I lost a lot of respect for Open Source is the day they went political.
Why don't they mind their own business and stop trying to push their ideology worldwide? China isn't a democracy - neither are 99.9% of those that claim to be but that's beside the point. They have their own rules and regulations and you should respect them and not interfere.. You have no right to decide what's right or wrong or to push your means to them, the same way as they don't or shouldn't push their ideology to your countries.
Yes. The article is all about people forcing their viewpoints on others. Unfortunately you did not grasp which group was doing the forcing and which group was giving people options to prevent it.
And when I see you and yours harshly or unfairly treated you'll appluad me for responding in kind......?
We are to be our brothers keeper, at least to the extent we would expect help from a brother.
When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11
... this? Just no.
Peer-to-peer based on trust.
What could possibly go wrong?
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
That has to be the most phenomenally stupid comment I've read in a very long time. Who the hell do you think is running this tool on the other side of the censorship wall? I suppose if a woman cried rape you'd say it is not your job to stop rape, it is the responsibility of the women to not get raped, no? I am dumbfounded that you would post such drivel.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Afghanistanism - noun, A journalism term used to describe the practice of reporting on distant parts of the world that is not relevant to the subscribers (obsolete).
So if someone under the jurisdiction of a not-democracy disagrees with the policy of the not-democracy, what recourse ought he to have?
I read that line quite differently. It IS the job the the Chinese citizens to change a situation they don't agree with and this is one tool to help them do that. To say it is solely up to outsiders to change the system of a country without the support of the citizens is forcing your will on those citizens.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
The day I lost a lot of respect for Open Source is the day they went political.
Open Source isn't a person. It's neither political, nor apolitical. Open Source is a tool that makes sharing software much easier. That is all.
They have their own rules and regulations and you should respect them and not interfere..
Why should I? If a friend of mine in China wants me to give him access to github because its government blocked it for some reason (as it has done in the past), then I will certainly give it to him. Not that I was ever asked, everyone I know in China already pays (or has their own company pay) for a private proxy to ssh through.
You have no right to decide what's right or wrong or to push your means to them,
I have the right to say whatever I want, and they have the right to ignore me. Just like you have the right to say whatever you want, and I have the right to ignore you. The same goes for my government, please feel free to try to influence it. Most people running my government are self-serving idiots anyway.
dedicate the resources to that tool. It works, it's been available and the community is strong.
Why why why? Because you can? TOR Needs all the resources it can get and this is doing nothing to help.
Great. Now who said that? I didn't see anyone saying it. This tool certainly doesn't say it.
How can you interpret that to mean the citizens inside the censored zone aren't involved?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Lantern has a crowd funding project running on Indiegogo:
https://www.indiegogo.com/proj...
Bert
What makes the system so unique is that it operates on the basis of trust.
It does sound like a unique privacy system, if it is based on trust.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
'laws' change every day now like herding us ordinarians around...in the spiritless unlawfulness we now face it is freedom of spirit & the truth that cannot be controlled as usual...
now if only Lantern were an american project then your post would make sense as well as being stupid
Assuming you ran that program, would you feel safe running it on your actual computer on your actual network?
I wouldn't. Its basically a free for all VPN that you throw on your machine. Anyone could use that thing. yeah, people in repressive regimes trying to be free. Also terrorists and pedophiles.
And lets not forget hackers that want to exploit your good will to gain access to your system.
Now lets assume you really want to help so you're going to run this thing. What sort of precautions would you have to take to do it responsibly?
I'm thinking I would have to run it sandboxed or VMed somehow. Or on a spare machine that I don't care about. Possibly on a raspberry pi because why not.
Then I'm thinking it would have to be on a different VLAN. Because I am sure as hell not sharing a private network with that thing.
And even then I'm thinking that isn't enough because what is to stop the hacker that takes control of the raspberry pi on VLAN2 from simply hacking the router, gaining access to VLAN1, and then proceeding to rape my network from the inside out?
You see the problem. I like the idea of this thing. I just can't trust it. Maybe if I put it on a hosted system data center or something and let them deal with it. After all they have no reason to trust anyone that hosts programs on their systems. They should firewall everything from everything else as a matter of course.
Does it make any sense to bridge the first router that creates VLAN2 to a second router so that if someone accesses the gateway they won't actually be accessing the router that controls the VLANs? That is, bridge a second router on VLAN2 to the port and let it act as the gateway for the suspect system?
Would that make this operation safe or is this just needless abstraction that doesn't accomplish anything?
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
The day I lost a lot of respect for Open Source is the day they went political.
"they" who?
Why don't they mind their own business and stop trying to push their ideology worldwide? China isn't a democracy - neither are 99.9% of those that claim to be but that's beside the point. They have their own rules and regulations and you should respect them and not interfere.
what kind of being could possibly put "99.9% of democracies aren't democracies" and "we should respcet rules and regulations" in the same sentence. a mushroom?
If you download Lantern in an uncensored region, you can connect with someone in a censored region, who can then access whatever content they want through you. What makes the system so unique is that it operates on the basis of trust. ...the amount of information any single Lantern user can learn about other users is limited to a small subset, making infiltration significantly more difficult.
Outside of the geek's virtual worlds and ways of thinking ---
The more you know about someone, the more you are willing to trust them. Particularly when the stakes are high.
Open source is a "way of thinking", a philosophy! Not a tool, not a corp ...
Opening your code is like sharing wisdom!
Yes, the 0.33 billion Americans should get all uppity and force China to change because the 1 BILLION chinese citizens can't be bothered/don't care enough to overthrow the 0.0000001 billion people that are forcing this on them.
If they don't care, why should I? Is it REALLY making their lives horrible? No. They really don't give a shit that they can't view some dissidents blog in Taiwan or Tibet.
Do you see them fighting their government? No. Are they really suffering? No. Is it anything more than you forcing your viewpoint and culture on people who could give a shit what you think? No.
If they want change and it bothers them, they can start working on the process. Governments can be overthrown, every single one of them. They depend on the citizens to produce the required components needed for the government to function. When the citizens want to get rid of the government and are willing to make the required sacrifices the government doesn't stand a chance in hell. All the citizens have to do is stop producing.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Holy shit. You have to be one of the most misinformed idiots on the planet.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Nobody's asking you to do anything.
Why did you even bother posting?
I guess searches for "Tiananmen square protests" are censored in your country too.
This space intentionally left blank
The day I lost a lot of respect for Open Source is the day they went political.
Why don't they mind their own business and stop trying to push their ideology worldwide?
So I guess you lost all respect for Einstein and his peers when they warned about the implications of weaponizing nuclear technology ...
They have their own rules and regulations and you should respect them and not interfere.
The world disagrees. "Ve vere chust followink orders" isn't a defense for following "rules and regulations" that deprive people of what most of the people on the planet consider to be universal human rights.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
What about unblocking Internet in oppressive regimes like the UK?
What about the people in China who do care, but know their aren't enough people behind them? This sort of thing is for them.
I don't recall anyone forcing anyone to use this. If there are people who don't like the fundamental right to free speech and love censorship, then they're welcome to simply not use this.
How would you feel if another country did it to you?
Did what? There are no invasions here. What's with you idiots? Do you have some problem with giving people the option to get around censorship if they want to or something?
So if someone under the jurisdiction of a not-democracy disagrees with the policy of the not-democracy, what recourse ought he to have?
You're welcome to get the fuck out of America.
other than the quasi-religious argumebt that "we are right amd thwy are wrong" what gives us yhe right to intwntionally try to subvert yhe authority of another sovereign nation with whom we are not at war? This seems an awful lot like spy-games...
... well there it is, folks! And you thought apologists for the US were retarded. Here is someone who transcends general retardation and creates his own universe of retardedness.
That's what they're already doing -- they're using this tool for themselves. It so happens that this tool is developed internationally but that has nothing to do with its use. You would have it only be a Chinese coding effort?
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
No one forces anyone to use free software.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Why do you hate China?
If people still didn't believe there were political/governmental shills on /., the knee-jerk whataboutism posts on every article about a non-US country should very clearly dispel that belief.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
That's like saying non-US vpn providers are forcing their concept of right and wrong on Americans. The tools are made available, the doors are unlocked. People willingly use the tools, and willingly walk through the doors on their own.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
You make me want to download lantern. Back in the day the United States was actively promoting democracy. France, our biggest ally in the revolution received a colds shoulder from us as we favored the rebellion. Screw China and screw totalitarianism.
The Chinese social networking army has really fluent English speakers.
Probably western Sinophiles who can't distinguish between government and people. Regular Chinese people have no respect for these Chinaboos.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
It claims to be "Available for Linux", but it's only available for Debian/Ubuntu (and the d/l link is kinda broken). Why don't they just say that it's for Ubuntu and not "Linux"? That's misleading. That's like saying it's available for Windows but they only provide a WFW3.11 version.
And no easy-to-find links to any source code, no mention of source code in the FAQ, so it's difficult to characterize this as a FOSS project, even though they claim the GPLV3 license. Where is the source if they are releasing the binaries?
I mean really... ACs make wild claims and can't / won't back it up.
greg, REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
The world disagrees. "Ve vere chust followink orders" isn't a defense for following "rules and regulations" that deprive people of what most of the people on the planet consider to be universal human rights.
Listen beyotch, leave the NSA out of this...if you know what's good for ya...
Adm. Michael S. Rogers
Director, NSA
Do you have some problem with giving people the option to get around censorship if they want to or something?
I have a problem with people like you meddling in the affairs of other countries. Keep your nose out of their business.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Where's the source code for the FOSS project? The license is GPLV3.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
People like me? Once again, who is forcing anyone to use these tools? Who is meddling? People in countries with censorship can *choose* to use these tools. What is your specific complaint with this? Are you pro-censorship? Do you think that laws and society is always right, so anyone who provides tools that people can choose to use to get around censorship are wrong? Just what is your problem?
I can just see places like England and Australia, where they block such sites, using my American isp to look at kiddie porn. I would never open myself to a damaged front door, screaming beast with badges tracking up my house, throwing flash bangs in my baby's crib, shooting my Chihuahua claiming they were in danger, possibly killing me, the family bread winner, grinding me under their feet with hours of a brutal Reed interrogation method questioning, throwing me in jail with harden, vicious criminals, requiring me to pay a lawyer to get me out, and afterward have the feds confiscate my bank account so that I couldn't keep my lawyer. Governments are far too dangerous everywhere to set yourself up for such a destructive trip.
but we need more friends in uncensored countries to join us
There are no uncensored countries on this planet.
I wish there were a way to get your overseers to switch you from the political screed team to the manual-writing team.
I don't see how the parent post is any proof that the poster is working for any government, party or similar political group. Bashing the US is fun for many trolls, and people don't generally need compensation to do something they have fun doing.
The software in question isn't forcing anyone to do anything, it's giving the option for people to get around a filter.
Are you pro-censorship?
I am pro sovereignty. China has a right to restrict any speech they like [with their own citizens], and you have no right to interfere.
You, and meddling do-gooders like you, are 'my problem'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What do you think about VPN providers in the UK which US citizens sometimes use to bypass copyright restrictions? Are they violating US sovereignty? Are they imposing their morality on Americans?
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
China has a right to restrict any speech they like [with their own citizens], and you have no right to interfere.
Erm... what you still don't seem to understand is that there is no invasion! People in China *choose* to use this software of their own fucking volition. Stop acting like it's being forced, or that there is some sort of invasion on the Chinese.
Such censorship is horrible, and I think providing tools that people can choose to use to get around it is perfectly okay.
Technically, yes.
However, citizens in the us do have the right of free speech, and some would say that 'copyright restrictions' violate that right in the first place, so its not really a fair comparison.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It seems to me your beef is with those inside the country who are breaking the law by using this tool. everyone else is making a perfectly legitimate tool. Internet providers also give these dissidents a tool and network-access to break the law, and they operate _inside_ china. it is an outrage! It is even worse. Stop meddling with do-gooders - it is none of your business. They are sovereign governors of their own actions.
It seems like you don't know the Chinese constitution also outlines free speech as a right.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
How many Chinese VISA's do you have stamped on your passport?
Let me guess, you don't even have a passport, let alone been there?
Let me give you a quick hint of life in China. They are more concerned with making some money and improving their life then worrying about "the great firewall".
Is China a perfect place? Far from it.
Do the Chinese have bigger concerns then "the great firewall" going on in, you bet.
You do realize the state controls both the TV and newspapers right? This is something that impacts far more then the few that can afford computers and internet access.
Care to share what the Tienanmen square protest was about?
As a Canadian many US sites are blocked due to "licensing" restrictions. Do you think we should get rid of these?
How about when the US arrests citizens for possession of Child Porn, should devices to bypass this be created as well, after all isnt that censorship?
How about when your own FTC "bans" words from being said on the radio or TV, isn't that censorship?
say "F*ck" on the radio and come back and tell us about your "free speech" fines.
Read up on "McCarthyism" and then explain how your right to free speech can land you in jail for being accused of being a comunist. Try to relate that to your right to free speech and the right to gather in peaceful demonstrations.
Do you think we should get rid of these?
Yes. Get rid of them.
How about when the US arrests citizens for possession of Child Porn, should devices to bypass this be created as well, after all isnt that censorship?
Yes, such devices should and do exist.
How about when your own FTC "bans" words from being said on the radio or TV, isn't that censorship?
Yes, it is. It's a disgusting violation of the first amendment, and it's sad that our Supreme Court thinks they have the ability to modify the constitution with invisible ink.
For the record, this is the 'Great Satan' argument. By castigating outside influences as Other, and associating them with a group or nation that the populace has been indoctrinated to hate, it's possible to reject an idea without ever actually considering the merit of the idea itself. Thanks to the hard-working censorship peons from the People's Republic of China for this updated version. The Iranian one was getting old, and we're WAY past blaming the Jews.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
I wonder if China would be "liberated" if it had more oil?
Mao killed millions while the US stood on the sidelines yet now seems concerned about "the great firewall"?
Yeah, it's pretty sad how the first amendment is explicitly clear, and yet magically people think it's okay to punish people for their speech if they say something people don't like on broadcast tv or on the radio. We're not 'the land of the free and the home of the brave' and we never have been.
Terrorism has pretty much replaced McCarthyism. Oh, you posted a bomb joke on Twitter? The government is going to make your life hell.
Maybe it is just people who think that the US should mind its own business and focus on its own problems?
You dont need to be "the world police". If you wanted to help the chinese, lower the huge margins your multinationals take when they manufacture in china for cheap, and sell the US citizens for large profits.
Most Chinese are poor, given the choice of a bit of money to improve their lives or fight the firewall... well it is not a hard choice for them.
I think you've severely misinterpreted what this article is about. There is no invasion of China. Someone made a tool that allows people who choose to use it to get around censorship. Once again, using it is completely voluntary and nothing is being forced on anyone.
What part of this is difficult to understand?
"What part of this is difficult to understand?"
The need for the tool...
Will it allow child pornography? Piracy?
Subverting censorship. Government censorship that tries to control people's access to important information. Do you seriously need to ask that question?
Will it allow child pornography? Piracy?
Will knives allow murder? Using this ridiculous logic, everything would be banned. There is no conceivable way of stopping these things. The computer you're on now allows child pornography and copyright infringement (which is the right term, not "piracy").
It seems like you don't know the Chinese constitution also outlines free speech as a right.
SHUDDUP YOU SNIVELING KIKE MOTHERFUCKER
This should be alright under American democracy right?
What stops the chinese from seeing the pattern and then arresting people or just cracking the system.
OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink
Because the US has NEVER in its history created programs designed to undermine another nations government?
Subverting censorship. Government censorship that tries to control people's access to important information.
You seem pretty opinionated about government censorship, so let's ask these questions:
Do you support Obama censorship of images of abuse at Abu Ghraib?
Are Bradley Manning(now Chelsea), and Edward Snowden patriots or traitors?
Do you support Obama censorship of images of abuse at Abu Ghraib
I don't support any form of government censorship.
Are Bradley Manning(now Chelsea), and Edward Snowden patriots or traitors?
Patriots.
What's the point of these questions? Even if I were a complete hypocrite, it would not debunk a single thing that I have said.
"Such censorship is horrible, and I think providing tools that people can choose to use to get around it is perfectly okay."
It is good when a few people band together and express how their view is correct at the expense of others. Lets look up the "Temperance movement" shall we?
A few thought it would be a good idea to ban alcohol, after all it is bad for you. How did that work out? Was it the "right" thing to do?
Here is a thought, perhaps some level of censorship is a good thing, especially when you are trying to manage a country of 1.3BLN. Given the crime rates and such in the US with 300 million i am not sure the "US" model can easily be applied to other nations. You have to look at the history and context of those nations before trying to apply a "one size fits all" model. Can you picture the size of the Chinese prison system if China had incarceration rates the same as what can be found in the US? Clearly the Chinese can not adopt "western" models for some aspects of its society.
Please explain the "war on drugs".
Censorship is "horrible" but putting people in jail because they chose to smoke a plant is totally OK right? After all the law says that plant is against the law but tobacco (another plant) is not? Your government (assuming you are American) has a rich history of not sharing things with you, being dishonest with you, etc. All governments do, so is it OK?
" China *choose* to use this software of their own fucking volition"
Lets say that "fully automatic MP5's" are not against the law in my country, can i sell them to you? You should be free to choose to buy them on your own right?
If Coke is not against the law in my country, why are you arrested for buying it in yours?
Lastly, food for thought. Why does it matter what the Chinese government does so much to its people?
Prostitution and pornography are also illigial in China, should you push your views on those and encourage them to change their rules because you disagree with them?
Are other nations free to create tools to violate US laws or is this a one-way street thing?
It is good when a few people band together and express how their view is correct at the expense of others.
At the expense of others? In case you haven't heard, this tool is optional.
Here is a thought, perhaps some level of censorship is a good thing
Here is a thought: Freedom is more important than 'safety' from knowledge, which really isn't safety at all. It only allows oppression and control of the people. There are few things more intolerable to me than censorship, so you're wasting your time.
Evidently, though, there are people in China who do not agree with censorship. Otherwise, why the fuck would they choose to use these tools?
Clearly the Chinese can not adopt "western" models for some aspects of its society.
I don't want anyone to mindlessly adopt US policies; a lot of them are garbage. Take the good (freedom of speech) and leave the bad (drug war, TSA, NSA surveillance, etc.). Freedom of speech has nothing to do with the percentage of people imprisoned in the US; it's unrelated.
Censorship is "horrible" but putting people in jail because they chose to smoke a plant is totally OK right?
No, it isn't. Stop assuming that I agree with all of my own country's laws.
Lesson of the day: Law != morality. People can and should ignore unjust laws.
Lastly, food for thought. Why does it matter what the Chinese government does so much to its people?
Because people tend to care about other people, even if they happen to be in China? When you see a government violating people's fundamental rights, there will be people who wish to help. It's also nice to have these tools if our own government goes to shit.
Prostitution and pornography are also illigial in China, should you push your views on those and encourage them to change their rules because you disagree with them?
It's perfectly fine to criticize them for that. No one is suggesting we invade China, fool.
Are other nations free to create tools to violate US laws or is this a one-way street thing?
If something is legal to do in the nation you live in but isn't legal to do in the US, go right ahead. If it isn't moral, I don't suggest doing it, but other than that, go ahead. The US has *lots* of unjust laws.
If someone created a tool that allowed us to get around some unjust restrictions our own government placed on us, I would applaud that 100%, legal or not.
I don't get why people are so offended when others provide a tool that people can use to bypass censorship. What's the deal here? If you don't like it, just don't use it.
What if someone uses the connection to download illegal material? I'm pretty sure I don't want my computer being used for that sort of thing, even if I supposedly have an excuse.
Take the good (freedom of speech)
Well, the US is *supposed* to be free speech, but actually has a lot of anti-free speech policies (like the FCC censorship, free speech zones, etc.). The concept is what is desirable.
I am a Chinese who studies China for a living, and it is becoming more and more apparent to many people, that the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) knows it is on its last straw of survival.
The party is facing severe and increasing systematic stress on all fronts:
1. Increasing external oppositions from all other countries in the world, forming more and more alliances and becoming more outspoken with rising strengths against China, as well as increasing anti-China sentiment from people in all other countries.
2. Increasing internal severe and massive violent social unrest and anti-CCP mutiny from people of all Chinese living places e.g. mainland China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang, Tibet, Macau etc. To suppress internal dissent, the CCP every year is forced to spend even more money than on its massive military budget.
3. Fierce and unstoppable purges and mutually-destructive infighting among different factions within the party, who are imprisoning and killing each other every day. This power grab goes on under the thin guise of "anti-corruption drive" when everyone knows all officials in china are corrupted.
4. Its own economy never able to develop to higher level beyond mass skill-less manufacturing, due to complete absence of law and common morals. This is a death knock to the "growth-based legitimacy" of the CCP, which is the only thing CCP can rely on for continuing ruling power. The CCP is on its last resort of printing literally trillions of worthless renminbi to dump into the economy, causing way more long-term harm than short-term help, and when that is over there is nothing else the CCP can do to prop up the failing economy.
4. China's mass skill-less manufacturing itself is going away due to increasing costs and openly hostile and unfair business environment full of frauds and government robberies. This is worsened by the rise of robotic automatic manufacturing and 3D printing.
5. Its many suppressed fatal problems have grown too big to be contained all breaking out at the same time e.g.
- severe carcinogenic poisonous pollution everywhere in air and water and soil and their own food etc
- skyrocketing unrepayable bad debts of all kinds everywhere, its true scope unknown because all data from China are faked
- biggest housing bubble in human history, in addition to innumerous crumbling ghost cities and shoddily-built infrastructure that cannot and will not be used
- rapidly aging and gender-lopsided demographics (from one child policy, culture of "leftover women", and all Chinese families killing their own daughters so as to chase boys)
- world's no.1 wealth inequality
, with a Gini coefficient rivalling 18th century France just before the French revolution
- complete absence of soft power and cultural/social influence
- all Chinese chasing foreign-brand goods and services while ditching low-quality poisonous Chinese-brands, dashing CCP's hope to build domestic consumption economy
- corruptions and fraud throughout the whole rotten core of a system
- desperate mass exodus in all levels of Chinese society to escape the country, by all able Chinese with talents and money going elsewhere
- the law of large numbers and the "middle-income trap" all work against the "growth-based legitimacy" CCP desperately needs for its survival
Most importantly, the CCP knows that if 1.3 billion Chinese learn about basic morals, truth, fairness, human rights, rule of law, freedom, universal values etc the CCP will be toppled very quickly. Therefore its brainwashing education and propaganda machine ensure a complete lack of morals and regard for laws in all Chinese.
This results in failure in all basic aspects of human interactions with every modern Chinese, whether it is business trading / personal dealings / technoholgy development / creating innovations / human communications / scientific research / artistic expressions / teamwork collaborations / academic exchange etc.
All these festering fundamental systematic problems are getting worse and worse everyday until one day when the system can suddenly no longer bear. Think USSR in 1989.
"we invade China, fool."
Name calling, the last resort to win an argument?
". If it isn't moral, I don't suggest doing it"
Morals, something that is HIGHLY subjective.
"I don't get why people are so offended when others provide a tool that people can use to bypass censorship. "
Because those tools violate the laws of another sovereign nation. If they built the tools it would be one thing, but this is an attempt to subvert them.
If china implements a death penalty for being caught with such tools would you still be happy?
And Stallman is NOT very happy about that, but he hasn't given up the fight.
This software requires you to have a GMail-account and it uses Google's XMPP-servers for communication. This makes it a no-go for me.
Such censorship is horrible, and I think providing tools that people can choose to use to get around it is perfectly okay.
Thanks for proving my point.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I didn't prove any of your points. The implication that China is being taken over by another country is just stupid; people in China use this tool of their own volition, you mental midget.
Name calling, the last resort to win an argument?
It neither makes me win nor lose the argument. The reality is that you people have a very flawed perspective of the situation.
Morals, something that is HIGHLY subjective.
I don't care. I do not not suggest doing things that I do not believe are moral; you probably think the same. You wouldn't want others to murder people, would you?
Because those tools violate the laws of another sovereign nation.
Law != morality, authoritarian drone. Do you have no mind of your own? You should be taking it up with the people using the tools, not the creators of the tools, though I suspect you'll quickly find that they don't really care all that much about draconian laws.
If china implements a death penalty for being caught with such tools would you still be happy?
All the more reason to do it, considering how much worse the country would be. If people don't want to risk it, then don't use the tools. Very simple.
Now quit with this melodramatic, "Help! Help! Someone released a tool that I don't even have to use! I'm being oppressed!" bullshit.
You just said that its OK to interfere with other countries simply because you felt its right, which proves my point. Even a child could figure out that one.
I do hope some other country comes and interferes with you, because they "feel its right". Would serve you right.
Oh, and i never said 'take over', might want to learn some reading comprehension.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You just said that its OK to interfere with other countries simply because you felt its right, which proves my point.
If by "interfere," you mean support the existence of a tool that people in said countries can choose to use to get around censorship, then yes.
I do hope some other country comes and interferes with you, because they "feel its right".
I would applaud it if someone made a tool that allowed us to get around censorship (they already exist).
Oh, and i never said 'take over', might want to learn some reading comprehension.
And yet your whiny, melodramatic rhetoric would seem to suggest exactly that. Does baby feel oppressed when people can use a tool to get around censorship? Do you need a diaper change?
What's the point of these questions? Even if I were a complete hypocrite, it would not debunk a single thing that I have said.
Sorry my friend, it would absolutely debunks EVERYTHING had you came across as a hypocrite (which you didn't).
Simply because you can't say no censorship in China, but allow censorship in America (you can't have your cake and eat it too).
We want the Chinese to see Tiananmen pictures, but we don't want Americans to see Abu Ghraib pictures? Sorry, I don't have "stupid" tattooed on my forehead.
It also highlights the inescapable hypocrisy in the American/Western policies.
While clamping its iron fist solidly around Abu Ghraib info, it then turns 180 goes off on a semi-religious pulpit about Chinese censorship.
Ergo, the reaction to mind one's own fucking business.
Does baby feel oppressed when people can use a tool to get around censorship?
It is not that simple, both legally or morally, ( of course to a simpleton as yourself you may not fully grasp what you are suggesting ). Its too bad you cant be extradited to china, then executed, for your interfering transgressions.
Its not your country, keep your nose out of it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Forgot to add, i bet you are for no borders for sovereign nations either. Just make it one happy world with rainbows and unicorns.
You would be pissed if china's citizens interfered with your rights and laws.
Hypocritical pin-headed idiot.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It is not that simple, both legally or morally
Sure it is. What you seem to fail to realize is that people in China use this of their own volition. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them for having the audacity to not like censorship.
Its too bad you cant be extradited to china, then executed, for your interfering transgressions.
I certainly didn't make the tool. Is speech not considered interference?
Its not your country, keep your nose out of it.
It's not your country either, and you can't stop people who have the ability from developing tools that others want to use. Keep your nose out of their business; you're interfering.
Also, you're interfering with me with your stupid comments. What gives you the right to do that, authoritarian drone? Mind your own business.
Sorry my friend, it would absolutely debunks EVERYTHING had you came across as a hypocrite (which you didn't).
Nope. Have you never heard of the tu quoque fallacy? A complete hypocrite can say things that are true, such as that 1 + 1 = 2, and they'll still remain true. Saying otherwise is a logical fallacy.
Ergo, the reaction to mind one's own fucking business.
Censorship is bad regardless of who does it. We should help anyone and everyone who wants to get around it.
It's not your country either
Then what is 'my country' and 'my business', if you are so smart? ( and whatever your answer is, its wrong. )
Also, if you were to understand how china works, you dont have to create the tool, all you have to do is tell others its there to earn your [well deserved] fate. The fewer nosy people left in the world like you, the better the world would be.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I wouldn't be pissed at all if someone in China developed a tool that allowed me to get around US censorship, if such a thing existed in any major form like it does in China.
So no, I am no hypocrite. Also, I do not think breaking the law is wrong by itself; it depends on the law. As for rights... if anything, tools like this allow people in China (and elsewhere) to exercise their rights to a greater extent.
Your posts continue to make absolutely zero sense.
Then what is 'my country' and 'my business', if you are so smart?
Is it your country? Even if it is, you don't have a say in what everyone else chooses to do.
( and whatever your answer is, its wrong. )
So I could guess literally any country on the planet and I would be wrong? Do you not live in Earth, or do you live somewhere that isn't part of a country?
Also, if you were to understand how china works, you dont have to create the tool, all you have to do is tell others its there to earn your [well deserved] fate.
Yes, well-deserved. For helping others get around censorship. What a heinous crime!
The fewer nosy people left in the world like you, the better the world would be.
As opposed to indoctrinated drones such as yourself who spew forth vitriolic remarks at anyone who dares to help people get access to more information that the authorities don't want you to know about. Yeah, we could definitely use more of you people.
I sincerely hope you're trolling.
Your posts continue to make absolutely zero sense.
Only to people who think you need to impose your values on others and the ends justify the ( illegal and immoral ) means.
I suppose you supported the crusades too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That's the problem with these Chinese social networking soldiers. They try to use hypocrisy to say that things are either okay or not China's fault. You're right. America can be a hypocrite and still say true statements
I sincerely hope you're trolling.
Not in the least. I happen to feel that meddling is wrong. Regardless of what is being imposed. ( i do happen to think censorship is bad, but its none of my business if another country does not support it )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I think that providing a tool that people can choose to use to get around censorship they feel is unjust is perfectly moral, even if it's illegal.
I suppose you supported the crusades too.
Nope. Whether something is illegal doesn't matter to me; that does not determine whether I think something is immoral or not.
So you are back to proving my point, its all about what YOU think, what the others think is irrelevant.
While i agree it was a bit of an extreme example, the crusades were considered moral, and there is no question about them imposing their concepts of it on others.
There are many non-extreme examples that can be made with one part of the world thinking another part is totally backwards/immoral/etc, and none of them have the right to interfere with the others.
And i'm done here, some of us have productive things to do.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So you are back to proving my point, its all about what YOU think, what the others think is irrelevant.
When developing the tool that others can choose to use, it is about what you think. When others choose to use it, it's about what they think.
While yes I do support the tool, and I do despise censorship, it's still up to the people over there to choose to use the tool.
While i agree it was a bit of an extreme example, the crusades were considered moral, and there is no question about them imposing their concepts of it on others.
The crusades were also about oppressing others through the use of violence. What this is about is making available a tool that allows one to get around censorship, if one so chooses to use it. Not even remotely comparable.
and none of them have the right to interfere with the others.
When it comes to providing tools to get around censorship? Absolutely, they do. That's completely non-violent and completely optional.
give up explaining this to him. he has to be trolling because he's not grasping the concept that this tool is downloaded voluntarily by people who want it. someone in Iran could use it, china, North Korea, any repressive regime. nobody is trying to force views on anybody. people who are using this tool already feel their freedoms are being abused. someone who worships their dictator probably isn't going to be using the tool.
this. 1000x. please mod up
Idiot. China censors curse words as well, that would be your frame of reference. In order to compare the US and China with regard to censorship of information on the internet, e.g. sensitive political topics, you would not be able to use this frame of reference.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Again, comparing two unlike qualities. China's tactics in cracking down on terrorism in its western provinces is very much something you would criticize (if you also criticize the US's tactics). That would be a comparison of like with like. Again, the locking down of sensitive political information is our frame, e.g. criticism of policies, posting of data which contradict official released data, etc.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Again, comparing two unlike qualities.
There was no comparison in my comment.
Tu quoque is a relative concept involving two players.
If you want to go absolute, this would not be applicable.
The proper perspective is 1+1=2 in China, but 1+1=3 in America.
If you only speak truth out of half of your mouth, it invalidate your entire argument (not that your argument has no elements of truth).
Censorship is bad regardless of who does it. We should help anyone and everyone who wants to get around it.
I wouldn't help a hypocrite is my main contention.
America can be a hypocrite
Congratulations Freddy79, you finally got it.
Tu quoque is a logical fallacy no matter how many players there are. Someone's arguments stand or fall on their own merit.
Tu quoque is a logical fallacy no matter how many players there are
Dude, it has nothing to do with truth or fallacy.
There's nothing wrong with exposing the weaknesses of your opponent, that's what a contest is about.
Someone's arguments stand or fall on their own merit.
The Pope is Catholic is almost as relevant.
Dude, it has nothing to do with truth or fallacy.
Then people should not be bringing hypocrisy into every discussion and not responding to the actual arguments that people presented; it makes it seem as if they think that attacking their character will debunk their arguments.
Hey Anonymous Coward! You DON'T stand for me, not close to anyone I know inside the wall!
Then people should not be bringing hypocrisy into every discussion and not responding to the actual arguments that people presented; it makes it seem as if they think that attacking their character will debunk their arguments.
Sorry about the late reply, a little busy.
Are you off your meds or you're just running out of things to say?
Like I said earlier. there's nothing wrong with attacking the opponent's weaknesses. Try "logical fallacy" that.
Call me shallow, but I do tend to judge arguments based on an individual's character.
Are you off your meds or you're just running out of things to say?
Neither. I just think it's ridiculous that hypocrisy is brought up in every discussion as if it's a good way to debunk your opponent's arguments; it isn't.
Like I said earlier. there's nothing wrong with attacking the opponent's weaknesses. Try "logical fallacy" that.
Just attacking your opponent and debunking their arguments is one thing; attacking your opponent's character in place of debunking their arguments is quite another.
Call me shallow, but I do tend to judge arguments based on an individual's character.
You're shallow, and your thinking is fallacious.
Are you off your meds or you're just running out of things to say?
Neither. I just think it's ridiculous that hypocrisy is brought up in every discussion as if it's a good way to debunk your opponent's arguments; it isn't.
I suggest it's both.
A hypocrite cannot make a moral judgement of another who performed the exact same transgression as the accuser.
Hitler saying Stalin is a bad guy, while true, rings hollow.
It simply becomes a pissing contest, with no useful outcome (which you apparently think there is, probably due to a lack of pharmaceuticals or talent..or both some may suggest).
Just attacking your opponent and debunking their arguments is one thing; attacking your opponent's character in place of debunking their arguments is quite another.
Two4One deal of the day. See above.
A hypocrite cannot make a moral judgement of another who performed the exact same transgression as the accuser.
Sure they can.
Hitler saying Stalin is a bad guy, while true, rings hollow.
So you admit they can.
It simply becomes a pissing contest, with no useful outcome (which you apparently think there is, probably due to a lack of pharmaceuticals or talent..or both some may suggest).
Arguments stand or fall on their own merits. If you disagree with that, you must be lacking pharmaceuticals or talent (Seriously?).
Two4One deal of the day. See above.
No such deal exists. You're not actually debunking their arguments, and you admitted that what they say can still be true. And yet here you responded as if it *is* debunking their arguments. This makes no sense.
A hypocrite cannot make a moral judgement of another who performed the exact same transgression as the accuser.
Sure they can.
Hitler saying Stalin is a bad guy, while true, rings hollow.
So you admit they can.
It simply becomes a pissing contest, with no useful outcome (which you apparently think there is, probably due to a lack of pharmaceuticals or talent..or both some may suggest).
Arguments stand or fall on their own merits. If you disagree with that, you must be lacking pharmaceuticals or talent (Seriously?).
Two4One deal of the day. See above.
No such deal exists. You're not actually debunking their arguments, and you admitted that what they say can still be true. And yet here you responded as if it *is* debunking their arguments. This makes no sense.
HAHA, Three4One deal.
Thanks for typing out my response.
I couldn't made you look much more idiotic if I tried.
Yeah Stalin is going to stop shooting Germans at Stalingrad, because Hitler dropped leaflets saying killing is bad...redeim idiocy I think they call it.
I couldn't made you look much more idiotic if I tried.
No, you couldn't, because I'm not the one who looks stupid here.
Yeah Stalin is going to stop shooting Germans at Stalingrad, because Hitler dropped leaflets saying killing is bad
*yawn* Straw man.
I couldn't made you look much more idiotic if I tried.
No, you couldn't
Ummm, I believe that's what I said...
Yeah Stalin is going to stop shooting Germans at Stalingrad, because Hitler dropped leaflets saying killing is bad
*yawn* Straw man.
*yawn* you wish.
*yawn* you wish.
You might need to work on your reading comprehension.
*yawn* you wish.
You might need to work on your reading comprehension.
You definitely need to work on a new prescription.
You need some more practice when it comes to pseudoscience.
You need some more practice when it comes to pseudoscience.
Dude, WTF are you rambling about?
What does any of this got to do with "science"?
I thought you might be trying to practice being a pseudoscientist by claiming that I need prescriptions for disagreeing with you.