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The Royal Society Proposes First Framework For Climate Engineering Experiments

Jason Koebler writes The Royal Society of London, the world's oldest scientific publisher, has unveiled a proposal to create the first serious framework for future geoengineering experiments. It's a sign that what are still considered drastic and risky measures to combat climate change are drifting further into the purview of mainstream science. The scientific body has issued a call to create "an open and transparent review process that ensures such experiments have the necessary social license to operate."

17 of 174 comments (clear)

  1. You get nothing. Good day, sir! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If I were a schill for big business, I'd be all, "Yeah yeah! Do it! Let's compensate by geoengineering!"

    DO NOT DO THIS. If it works and you overshoot, you'll induce another ice age, which can happen in as few as a couple of years. Unlike moving in from the oceans over 100-300 years (a nuisance, and less damaging to human life than slowing technological advancement by massive intervention in the economy) an ice age will indeed, and actually, and rapidly kill billions of people.

    Lik Willy Wonka, I will sigh and burble flatedly, "No. Stop. Don't do it." but the children won't listen.

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    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. Transparent? by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When they say "open and transparent" what they mean is that anyone who's even vaguely sceptical will be hounded out at the first opportunity.

    1. Re:Transparent? by KeensMustard · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I should think that any geo-engineering attempt to reduce atmospheric CO2 would have to be on a massive scale - there will be plenty of time for the anxious to voice their concerns and present their evidence.

      Besides, if anything I think we've been far TOO consultative through this process. We spent what? 30 years listening to denialists and waiting for them to produce some evidence for their theory (that anthropogenic CO2 does not cause warming unlike natural CO2 which is mysteriously different). This is probably 25 years too long compromising to an alternate hypothesis with all the scientific credentials of a guy screaming "A witch did it!".

    2. Re:Transparent? by Truth_Quark · · Score: 3, Informative

      WTF?

      Climate change deniers?

      FFS. SIGH
      re: You mean like no warming in 17.5 years?
      There has been plenty of warming in the last 17.5 years. The warming of the surface air temperature has been marginal, (but not statistically significantly "no warming" as you appear to be claiming.) The best you can correctly and scientifically say, is that there might be a reduction in the rate of warming of the surface air temperature.

      The oceans have warmed. As can be seen from the direct measurements, if you're into science, but if you're not, it's clear and obvious from sea level rise which is primarily thermal expansion.

      Ice sheets have lost mass.

      re: They make models that show doom, and don't match up with reality.
      No they don't. They make models that investigate the climate.

      Some aspects match with reality well. Some aspects require finer modelling. (And there are probably some physical processes that are not fully understood either, especially with respect to cloud formation).

      Sure, all (I think) models have a double-Intertropical Convergence Zone. That doesn't mean that they aren't useful. Quite the opposite. The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny...". And so work on the DICZ progresses. Science advances. We learn more stuff.

      Claiming "Models don't match reality! All this science must therefore be rubbish!" is the call of the Luddites. Einstein didn't overthrow Newton, he built upon his work, and Newton did upon the giants upon whose shoulders he stood. This is how science works.

      re: Then they redo the models to match the previous few years and again show doom.
      I'll keep this response more concise: Bullshit.

      re: Sorry you don't understand this and believe their lies while calling those who tell the truth liars.
      Really? That's your claim? The scientists are lying to you?
      FFS, mate, think about that for a while and get back to me on how likely it could be.

    3. Re:Transparent? by dave420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You didn't have any logic or facts either, just your opinion. He chose to highlight the fact that your opinion is not based on the scientific findings of the decades of research on climate change by simply pointing to your name, which is incredibly apt. Don't confuse brevity with laziness :)

  3. What could possibly go wrong? by Noryungi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Instead of potentially dangerous experiments, may I suggest the oldest known and proven solution to global warming?

    This is extremely complicated, so please bear with me for a minute or two:

    Plant. More. Trees.

    Don't believe me? Fine, don't take my word for it. Heck, even that bastion of free enterprise, The Economist got behind that idea!

    So, why is not implemented on a large scale? Because planting trees is not techonologically "sexy" - it is well known, has been well known for centuries, and, for maximum effect, would require rich countries to invest serious money in poorer countries, to save the rainforest (which is where tree-planting would have maximum impact). And we cannot allow these natives to get money to do something as simple as plant a tree, right?

    In other words, the wealthiest have decided it is a lot more fun to throw money at dangerous or even foolish and ineffectual solutions rather than provide for jobs and development in the poorest countries of the world -- precisely the countries that will suffer the most due to global warming. Make of that what you will.

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    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Rainforests are CO2 neutral.

      It is often quoted that rain forests absorb buttloads of CO2, but they give off equal amounts. Unless a swamp/jungle is laying down geological CO2 (there are a very few left, Okefenokee is the example that springs to mind) it is just absorbing it, short term. While the rot at the base of the tree is giving off an equal amount.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by riverat1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like planting trees but I'm under no illusion that it will solve the problem. We're burning fossil fuels in a few centuries that took 10's to 100's of thousands to millions of years to lay down. I would expect it to take a similar amount of time to reverse the CO2 levels.

    3. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 4, Informative

      Most conversion of CO2 to O2 is done by algae and other marine life (93% iirc). Trees only contribute a very small percentage. You can increase algae to absorb CO2, but having more algae is not a good thing - it creates toxic environments that kill other types of life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

      By the way this is what a lot of people get wrong when they say 'CO2 is plant food!!'

      The CO2 problem is a huge problem we've created that both environmentalists and anti-environmentalists usually vastly underestimate.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    4. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by raind · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Toledo Ohio residents can tell you how that algae bloom worked for them: http://www.motherjones.com/tom...

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      Get up!
  4. Re:Durrrr. by bobbied · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh yeah, that sweet sweet grant money. Everyone knows scientists who support global warming are all riding around on their private yachts paid for with the grant money they lied in their research to get, whereas the poor defenseless honest scientists who are sceptical of global warming are all broke and starving because no one will pay them a dime.

    No, they are not running around on their yachts. They are fighting for a living share of a dwindling supply of cash. They are coming out of the woodwork trying to protect their livelihoods and paychecks for fear they might have to get an industry job where there is accountability for results, not just being able to get grant money. They are fighting to stay relevant, so they can keep their PHD students in subjects do develop and defend, right or wrong.

    You see, this is academia we are discussing, not business. If this was a business venture, we would have had our answer years ago and wouldn't need another round of National Science Foundation funding to investigate this, or come up with another model that disagrees with the 20 we already have which are not good enough. We certainly wouldn't need a "frame work" to more fairly dole out the funds.

    What we really have is survival of the fittest, capitalistic, style. A bunch of these folks will be taking up new avenues of research, getting other jobs, or just retiring without their Nobel Peace Prize. The question is who will make the cut and what will they do when they get desperate.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  5. Re:I have a better idea by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You could propose that as a geoengineering experiment.

    But the short term costs are horrendous. Billions dead. Unlikely to be a good tradeoff.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  6. Re:You get nothing. Good day, sir! by Berkyjay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A scientist who doesn't consider all paths to solving a problem is not a very good scientist. Let me emphasise.....CONSIDER all paths. To ignore geoengineering as a possible solution to what is happening NOW would be foolish and irresponsible.

  7. Re:You get nothing. Good day, sir! by riverat1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    DO NOT DO THIS. If it works and you overshoot, you'll induce another ice age, which can happen in as few as a couple of years.

    No, an ice age is not something that can happen in a couple of years. The thermal capacitance of the oceans pretty much guarantees that. If you look at the records of past ice ages (glaciations) over the past million years the drop into them is usually much slower than the rise out of them.

    Besides that, nothing about geoengineering is long lasting. It pretty much requires that you keep doing it to maintain the effect. That will be an ongoing expense without any clear end.

  8. In general geoengineering makes it worse by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You have to keep the flow up as the environment gets worse, and at some point you run out of the resources to geoengineer, which causes a kickback effect that is a large multiple of the geoengineered impact.

    Think of it as applying the brakes lightly at the same time that you're flooring the accelerator.

    Then you take your foot off the brake while you're going down a steep decline, where you started at a mild decline.

    Suddenly you're careening down the hill, out of control.

    The best thing to do is stop subsidizing bad behavior that increases it (e.g. fossil fuels) and start requiring all new construction to meet new energy codes (half of all energy use is to heat and cool buildings, and passive solar and insulation can cut that dramatically) while you retrofit any existing fossil fuel plants (e.g. using cogeneration for all pre-2000 coal plants, and phasing out the dirtiest plants by expiring reauthorizations for permits when they come due.

    People like to pretend massive change is needed. Energy is not a Binary On/Off thing - a partial change by the largest consumers (e.g. China) causes massive change. Air travel is the largest personal behavior change for people who live in cities (replace old jets with 787s and turboprops and build high speed rail).

    There, that's half your carbon impact.

    Now stop whining.

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    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  9. Re:I am skeptical by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I guess we won't know if we don't do the research, but it concerns me that it could be seen as "Don't worry, we'll just put everything back, so go ahead and dig up that last ounce of fossil fuel." Even if the geoengineering approach can do more good than harm, it doesn't let us off the hook to produce less carbon, which will mitigate the damage. And we're having a hard enough time getting anything done on that score without adding a new phase to climate change denialism: "We can fix it."

    While the moral hazard of geoengineering is rather obvious as a problem, so is the assumption that humanity only has one purpose, to keep the climate the same as it was in 1850.

  10. Beginning of the End due to lack of knowledge by fygment · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We simply do not know enough about the planet to 'engineer' it.
    Every past effort to 'engineer' nature, even the simplest, has discovered things it failed to take in to account eg. introduction of 'control' species that became 'invasive'.
    On top of which, we don't have to engineer our way out of this. The clear solutions arepresent albeit mundane: more trees, less waste.
    'Engineering' the planet simply means finding a way to allow us (humans) to continue to make inefficient or wasteful use of our resources.

    So this is where I personally opt out.
            I will deny climate change simply in an effort to keep people from screwing with the planet and to encourage others to protest experiments.
            My next house will have two airconditioners, four cars (all SUV's), two pools, and as much 'always on' electronic gadgetry as I can stuff in it.
            All my future purchases will be quadruple wrapped in plastic, all my food processed, and I'll no longer recycle.

    If you're going to engineer the planet, I'm going to make it worth your while.

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    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.