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Researchers Find Security Flaws In Backscatter X-ray Scanners

An anonymous reader writes: Researchers from UC San Diego, University of Michigan, and Johns Hopkins say they've found security vulnerabilities in full-body backscatter X-ray machines deployed to U.S. airports between 2009 and 2013. In lab tests, the researchers were able to conceal firearms and plastic explosive simulants from the Rapiscan Secure 1000 scanner, plus modify the scanner software so it presents an "all-clear" image to the operator even when contraband was detected. "Frankly, we were shocked by what we found," said lead researcher J. Alex Halderman. "A clever attacker can smuggle contraband past the machines using surprisingly low-tech techniques."

146 comments

  1. Frankly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I am shocked

    1. Re:Frankly by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, that's just the X-ray scanner malfunctioning.

    2. Re:Frankly by pkinetics · · Score: 1

      Hmm.. I wonder what would happen if this company developed teleporters

    3. Re:Frankly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "I teleported home one night,
      With Ron and Sid and Meg.
      Rons stole Meggie's heart away,
      And I got Sydney's leg."

    4. Re:Frankly by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      I hate to be an advocate for security through obscurity, but I figured these things would be ultra super restricted, and "laboratory tests" would be irrelevant because they had access to a device that attackers do not have access to.

      The systemâ(TM)s designers seem to have assumed that attackers would not have access to a Secure 1000 to test and refine their attacks,â said Hovav Shacham, a professor of computer science at UC San Diego.

      That's actually kind of reasonable, given the amount of spending given to DHS and cetera.

      However, the researchers were able to purchase a government-surplus machine found on eBay and subject it to laboratory testing.

      Super hot fuck! Who does that? Who the fuck surpluses a secret government machine? Seriously, who the shit did this? Did no one account for the surplus process?

      Terrorists get surplus cheese, worst case they don't shit for a few days. Surplus scanning devices? Didn't you fucking retards in Congress think about that when you signed away shitloads of your childrens' dollars for these things?

      Holy dick-licking super stupid fuck! Literally the only chance in shit that you have is to keep this shit secret!

      "...said J. Alex Halderman, a professor of computer science at the University of Michigan"

      God bless you, or whichever divinity you do or do not believe in grant you some additional benefit over and above the opportunity to be a collection of electrically connected cells, J. Alex Halderman. Bake yourself some cookies, on us.

    5. Re: Frankly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy shit, batman

    6. Re:Frankly by sillybilly · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There are lots of portable x-ray devices , usually for on the road or nursing home type fell and broke a bone situations, and it's friggin lovely when the neighbors use it on you. At my previous residence there was not a single spot in the whole place where I could be and not be sick, I usually ended up in the entrance lobby or the kitchen area, never in the bedroom, as, I figured out lately why, but not back then, there was a contractor van with two black dudes that always looked at me weird when they came out of the driveway right when I walked by on the sidewalk, and I did not understand why back then. I guess everyone got a job to do, and I'm not an angel either. So lucky me, I got a thick cast iron metal tub now on a top floor, so the only way to really irradiate me with microwaves or x-rays or whatever the heck goes through wooden houses like they are paper, so the only way to get me now is from an airplane, or if someone climbed the roof. But the house is really tall, so dark hour drone strikes are most feasible, but the good thing about that is that if they are low power, because you can't take up a huge amount of electric power, unless the plane itself is huge. But lately it's been getting better, I mean last week or so, a couple weeks ago the hits were really bad. But just like Chernobyl proves, like can take a whole lot of radiation dose, as long as it's within tolerance limits, and you get breaks to recuperate. Worst is when you get a job where they make you sit in one place or stand in one place, and xray you there too, then when you come home, it's the same thing, and you don't get enough breaks to recuperate, and get things like, swollen gums and loose teeth, stinky breath, tooth cavities, and cancer in your skin and meat that doesn't get fought off by your immune system. One of the reasoning behind it could be to force you into higher housing cost situations, the other to help the health care business every time you show up in the emergency room feeling sick, all aimed at undermining you economically. Because you're not allowed to make it, that's already guaranteed. We'll shoot your tires out on the highway to make you catch a taxi, we'll sell you a remote control car to smack you into an accident on the highway, but you will not make it, to where you accomplish a low cost comfortable living, and an income to basic expense ratio of at least 20x. That's a big no no. Then everyone else would want that for themselves, and the exploitation of everybody stuck in a 1.2-1.5x income to basic expense ratio would stop, and everyone would become free, and go in a thousand different direction doing whatever they feel like, instead of what they are forced to do by their circumstances. It all starts with one bad apple that spoils the bunch.

    7. Re:Frankly by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I am shocked

      Me, too. I'm shocked that the researchers didn't know this. I knew this, I suspect that you knew this, and anybody who has ever read even a single Slashdot article about these machines knows this. The security holes in these things are so obvious that you should be able to think of at least a couple of ways around them without even trying.

      Next thing you know, atmospheric researchers will discover that the sky is, in fact, predominantly blue.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Frankly by DogPhilosopher · · Score: 1

      Super hot fuck! Who does that? Who the fuck surpluses a secret government machine? Seriously, who the shit did this? Did no one account for the surplus process?

      I agree that this is an epic fail. Apart from the obvious issues you point out, who would have a legitimate use for such a machine? And what is the financial benefit of selling these? This is mindless penny-pinching at its worst.

      But imho the bigger fail is the security-through-obscurity mindset. Why not provide prototypes to security researchers, and find and fix the holes, BEFORE wasting hundreds of millions of tax dollars on these pieces of shit? You have to wonder, what did the bidding process look like, who signed for this? Very fishy.

      Everybody already knew that backscatter machines are useless props in security theatre, and that they're a health hazard. But this makes it even worse, a new low. These things have to go.

    9. Re:Frankly by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I hate to be an advocate for security through obscurity, but I figured these things would be ultra super restricted, and "laboratory tests" would be irrelevant because they had access to a device that attackers do not have access to.

      "The system's designers seem to have assumed that attackers would not have access to a Secure 1000 to test and refine their attacks'"said Hovav Shacham, a professor of computer science at UC San Diego.

      And yet these machines are in public places. If the attacks involve wifi, they're available for pen testing by bad guys. For the low tech smuggling techniques, they're not just available for testing; they're foisted upon anyone with a ticket. If you have more manpower and money than scruples, you can send tester after tester through with items and figure out the ways to get through.

    10. Re:Frankly by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Minion 1: His head!
      Minion 2: It`s on backward!
      Scroob: Why didn`t anybody tell me my ass was so big?!?!

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  2. and yet by halfEvilTech · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nothing will change most likely.

    1. Re:and yet by TWX · · Score: 2

      Actually they're already being replaced with millimeter-wave scanners. But unfortunately they're being sent to places like prisons, and I expect that they'll be abused there too.

      I never quite knew how to pronounce the name of the device. It kind of looks like it should be "Rape igh scan" to me...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:and yet by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Funny

      Oh of course something will change.

      All security researchers will mysteriously find themselves on the no-fly list.

    3. Re:and yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But unfortunately they're being sent to places like prisons, and I expect that they'll be abused there too.

      These machines came from the prison system. Where do you think they were first deployed over 10 years ago? Prisoners could opt for backscatter x-ray, or cavity search, because you know, if you are unwilling to get x-rayed you must be hiding something.. There were "crackpots" (like prisonplanet.com) saying that prisons are first, and then they will be deployed everywhere, including airports after some incident is used to justify privacy invasion ignoring any health dangers from active x-raying of the public. These were ignored, as crackpots and "this could not happen in America, we have guns!" idiots. Well, it happened and what was the reaction? "Thanks for x-raying me. Now I feel safer".

    4. Re:and yet by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

      Nothing will change most likely.

      Sure they will. They will quickly be replaced with an improved model, generating large profits and campaign contributions for all involved, just like in the broken window parable. Everybody wins!

    5. Re:and yet by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So you think that's why fewer and fewer of us go to cons?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:and yet by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      I've always thought it was "Rapey scan." I don't know how the people that named it couldn't see it that way...

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    7. Re:and yet by worf_mo · · Score: 1

      They probably saw it. And laughed all the way to the bank.

    8. Re:and yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh of course something will change.

      All security researchers will mysteriously find themselves on the no-fly list.

      now i think like that http://infobisnisonline-telecommutergroup.blogspot.com this my blog to get

    9. Re:and yet by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I think it's pronounced "Rape-y Scan".

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  3. This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We're supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, and yet we allow our government to violate people's fourth amendment rights in broad fucking daylight every single day just because people want to get on a plane. Land of the free? Home of the brave? I think not. Disgusting.

    1. Re:This is ridiculous. by NatasRevol · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm not sure voluntarily going on a plane is the government violating your right to privacy.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure voluntarily going on a plane is the government violating your right to privacy.

      Well then, what about a government restricting your freedom of movement by forcing you to give up your right to privacy if you desire to travel? I am not saying it is not a nuanced issue — it is, and needs to be debated — but typing a flippant comment as you have done does not end the discussion.

    3. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm not sure voluntarily living in a certain city is the government violating your right to privacy.

      Using this ridiculous, draconian logic of "You voluntarily decided to do X, so you implicitly surrendered right Y to the government." is just stupid. The government has no power to make you implicitly surrender your constitutional liberties merely because you wish to do something. Of course, people who want the government to have unlimited power and to be able to violate your liberties whenever they please would disagree.

    4. Re:This is ridiculous. by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      If flying were always voluntarily, I'd never fly again. As it is, I fly about twice a year, involuntarily. Regardless of that, though, it absolutely is the government violating my privacy. That I technically "consent" to it doesn't make it any less of a privacy invasion.

    5. Re:This is ridiculous. by TWX · · Score: 3, Informative

      Unfortunately for your position, the courts have always provided interpretation to the Constitution, and many instances of limits on the defined words of the Constitution are found in law.

      If you want to get all strict-constructionist on this matter though, planes, cars, buses, and rail didn't even exist when the Constitution was written, so one could argue that there's no Constitutional protection when travelling by anything beyond horseback, carriage, or walking.

      Then there's the other side, where airlines were allowed to be in charge of their own security, letting "the market" set the balance, but then nineteen men decided to kill about 3500 men, women, and children one day, and our society realized that it wasn't gonna work to let the airlines be in charge of security.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    6. Re:This is ridiculous. by TWX · · Score: 1

      Any branch of government has all of the power that another branch of government allows it to have. As long as two branches agree then the third branch can be worked-around even if they object.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anon-Admin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, it is. The 4th amendment says

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      They are not getting warrants, there is no probable cause unless getting on a plane is probable cause to believe you are going to destroy it. There is no Oath or affirmation and no description of the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

      People do not seem to realize that your rights are given to you by your creator and the constitution only reaffirms that and states that the government can not violate those rights. It does not give you the rights and does not say anything about permission to violate because you enter a store, airport, car, train station, or the bathroom of your own house.

      There is a right way and a wrong way to do this, if they wanted it to be Constitutional they could have created an amendment that allowed the acceptation, voted on it, ratified it amongst the states, and then enforced it. Instead they ignored the Constitution, threw the existing law of the land out the window and the government did as they pleased. It is wrong, it is a violation of law, and a violation of the Constitution!

      BTW, this would not be an issue or illegal if it was still private security at the airport. The second they put Government Security Agents (TSA) in place it became unconstitutional.

      And now I bet I am on the no-fly list for this post. Another unconstitutional action the government takes.

    8. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      The government has no constitutional authority to force people to implicitly surrender their rights in exchange for being able to do something completely innocuous. They might be traitors who claim they do and just ignore the constitution, but that's a different matter.

    9. Re:This is ridiculous. by TWX · · Score: 0

      You fly involuntarily? Someone kidnaps you and forces you on to a plane and it takes off before your objection to being there is realized by the cabin crew?

      Or do you mean, "work requires me to fly even though I don't want to, but I want to keep my job so I do it anyway"?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    10. Re: This is ridiculous. by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      What activity would the TSA need to install body scanners at to cross the line for you? The train? Subway? City bus? Terrorists have blown up far more cafes than airplanes, so logically you should need to be scanned to buy coffee. And it wouldn't be an imposition, since you're there voluntarily!

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    11. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and from the article, nothing they have done (short of locking the cockpit door, not from the article) would prevent 19 more men from doing the same thing tomorrow.

    12. Re:This is ridiculous. by danbert8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It wasn't a failure of security that caused 9/11, it was a failure of policy. The by the book way to deal with a hijacking was to comply with the terrorists with the idea that they just wanted the passengers and plane for ransom, not to use the plane itself as a weapon. Today the pilots would intentionally crash the plane before they would allow the hijackers control over the aircraft.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    13. Re:This is ridiculous. by GlennC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's look it up....http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

              "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

      Since there is no "Right to Travel" listed earlier in the Constitution, it is not explicitly denied here.

      Unlike most codes of law in the United States, the Constitution does not generally apply to individual citizens. Rather, the Constitution defines and codifies the Federal government, and is generally accepted to be the limit of Federal and State powers and responsibilities.

      Finally, I remember that when I was younger (mind you, this was back in the 1970's), having to provide identification and being subjected to searches before being able to travel was the scope of godless Communists and tinpot dictators.

      That we have come to this point is a sad commentary on the United States. That many others not only accept this but actively defend it is even more disappointing.

      --
      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    14. Re:This is ridiculous. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Well then allow me to assist you in getting a clue. Suppose government agents surround your house with scanners. At some point you might choose to go to the store. Of course, they didn't violate the 4th amendment. You chose to go to the store. You chose to excercise your right to unfettered travel as guaranteed by the constitution. You chose to be searched!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    15. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      The government has no power to make you implicitly surrender your constitutional liberties merely because you wish to do something.

      It's not implicit, it is pretty explicit. There are signs in every security checkpoint line I've been through that clearly say that by entering this line your person and property are subject to search. I've also seen those signs at the exit of the checkpoint telling people that by being in the secured area they are subject to search. Right or wrong, it isn't implicit.

      I don't know about you, but I am not upset that those who "wish to do something", when "something" means "enter a jail or prison to visit a prisoner", are forced to waive their fourth amendment rights in order to do so. Ditto those who want to enter a military facility.

      Now, you might have a very strong argument when "something" means "mandatory appearance for jury duty" and you are instructed to put your bags and property through an x-ray machine while passing through a metal detector. You are being ordered under threat of force to appear and then searched when you do.

    16. Re:This is ridiculous. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      Yes. That's what he said. He didn't volunteer to go. It was a requirement. I really wish idiots would stop arguing for totalitarianism with stupid son sequiters and a complete lack of understanding of the English language.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    17. Re:This is ridiculous. by alen · · Score: 1

      we have had metal detectors for years if not decades. this is just a better metal detector

    18. Re:This is ridiculous. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Today the pilots would intentionally crash the plane before they would allow the hijackers control over the aircraft.

      Passengers had also been conditioned to just stay in their seats and be calm. That would never happen today. Even on 9/11, the passengers on Flight 93 figured out that it was fight back or die trying.

      One of the reasons that AQ did all four hijackings simultaneously, is that they knew they would never be able to exploit the same vulnerabilities again.

    19. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 2

      No. The government absolutely does not have the power to force people to surrender their constitutional liberties (either implicitly or explicitly) just because someone wants to do something completely innocuous. If you feel the government should have unlimited power, then try to amend the constitution. Otherwise, screw off.

      The implicit part is because they technically haven't explicitly said that they want to. Instead, it's said to be implicit in the fact that they want to get on a plane.

    20. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize English is not your first language and has many subtleties that can be difficult to parse. "Involuntarily" means "under coercion." In most English-speaking countries, we recognize many forms of coercion. Certainly, I can understand how, from the media representations of the US, one might come to the conclusion that the literal point of a gun is the only form of coercion, but that fails to give Americans and other English speakers proper appreciation of power. In fact, many forms of coercion lack any form of overt or implied violence at all. As a powerfully capitalist state, citizens of the US are especially vulnerable to economic coercion. Many violate their morals or sense of right and wrong under threat of lost wages or lost employment. People have even been known to violate their values under threat of social ostracism.

      It's a funny world, isn't it, where friends and money can be as powerful a physical violence?

    21. Re: This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was little, my family used to be able to drive on the Interstate system to Florida. Now, attempting to do that would destroy your car. It's sad how far fifty years off Republican rule has destroyed our infrastructure. All their kind does is take money from us at gun point to put in their own pockets.

    22. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The TSA does not stop at metal detectors, and the TSA is a government organizations. The government cannot just search everyone merely because they want to get on a plane.

      Don't like it? Fuck off. The constitution won't magically change just because you want it to.

    23. Re:This is ridiculous. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Our society? Citation needed...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:This is ridiculous. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure voluntarily going on a plane is the government violating your right to privacy.

      Be sure.

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

      Your houses have privacy, and so do your papers, and so do your effects, and so does your person. You do not need to keep all your things, including your body, in your house to keep your privacy. Traveling is *expected* behavior of people - it does not remove your civil rights.

      Well, in theory. The Bill of Rights only says what the Government may do and not do - if it behaves otherwise it's behaving illegally, but so what? Complain and get violated some more. Just don't fool yourself into thinking the Constitution is more than a relic of a long-lost Republic. If you don't care about rule-of-law, then just go about your business and submit to virtual strip searches. Just don't act surprised when a right you do care about is violated.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    25. Re:This is ridiculous. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      This.

      9/11 was much like the trojan horse stunt Odysseus pulled. Worked great back then. Won't work again, ever.

      The reason 9/11 worked out was because people were used to other kinds of plane hijackings. Hijackers that steal a plane, fly it somewhere, then demand something to be fulfilled before returning plane and passengers. That was the standard of plane hijackings before 2001. That's why it worked. Everyone expected just that. That's why the pilots opened the cockpit doors, that's why the passengers stayed in their seats.

      Today, neither would happen. Nothing you would threaten the pilot with could make him open that door, and if you have anything short of a machine gun you'll certainly find passengers willing and able to come to the conclusion "if I fight I have a chance, if I don't I'm dead for sure". In a 300+ passenger plane, if only one out of fifty people gets that idea it's enough to make the whole hijacking very unlikely to succeed.

      Face it, flying is safer than ever. Security theater or none, one thing is certain: 9/11 will not happen again. Simply because the people involved will react very, very differently.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:This is ridiculous. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you want to get all strict-constructionist on this matter though, planes, cars, buses, and rail didn't even exist when the Constitution was written, so one could argue that there's no Constitutional protection when travelling by anything beyond horseback, carriage, or walking.

      No you cannot argue that. The Constitution says nothing about technology and everything about how humans behave.

      Then there's the other side, where airlines were allowed to be in charge of their own security, letting "the market" set the balance, but then nineteen men decided to kill about 3500 men, women, and children one day, and our society realized that it wasn't gonna work to let the airlines be in charge of security.

      That strategy ceased to be effective at 9:03AM on 9/11/2001 over a field in Shanksville, PA. And you know who figured that out? Ordinary Americans, doing the security calculus themselves, where the government had completely failed to protect them, despite having many opportunities to do so.

      To be double-sure the airlines all secured their cockpit doors. That risk no longer exists, which is why the TSA has never caught a terrorist. They do violate the human rights of Americans all day, every day. In an effort to stop the terrorists, they have become the terrorists, all because they consciously choose to violate the highest law of the land.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    27. Re: This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airports...and anywhere else.

    28. Re:This is ridiculous. by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      The argument here is that denying efficient travel subverts freedom of assembly as well as the right to (effectively) petition my government for redress of grievances.

    29. Re:This is ridiculous. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Even if one accepts a failure of security, the only "tightening of security" that would have made any difference today versus on 9/11 are the locked, reinforced cockpit doors. Had the planes had those on 9/11, the hijackers could have threatened or even killed all of the passengers/crew (except for the pilots), but the plane would have landed safely without crashing into any buildings.

      We could roll back the "enhanced security" to pre-911 levels, keeping only those cockpit door improvements, and we'd be just as safe as we are right now.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    30. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      No. The government absolutely does not have the power to force people to surrender their constitutional liberties (either implicitly or explicitly) just because someone wants to do something completely innocuous.

      You've now substituted the word "innocuous" for the fourth's "unreasonable" and are applying your own subjective definition to it. Nineteen people taking out 3500 was not an innocuous act.

      If you feel the government should have unlimited power,

      I don't believe any rational person could read what I wrote and come away with the idea I think the government should have unlimited power. I pointed out that the claim that rights were being waived "implicitly" was wrong, and even went so far as to specifically say I was not talking about "right or wrong".

      The implicit part is because they technically haven't explicitly said that they want to.

      It is quite explicit, if you can read simple English when you pass by the sign. They've said "they want to" search you before you ever reach a point where they actually search you.

      Instead, it's said to be implicit in the fact that they want to get on a plane.

      I can "want to get on a plane" all day long and I'll never be subject to a search, UNTIL I walk past that sign that says explicitly that by passing this point I am subject to search. There is no "implicit" involved. There may be "inherent" (i.e., "as a part of"), but "implicit" ("not specifically stated"), nope.

    31. Re:This is ridiculous. by bored_engineer · · Score: 1

      Article four, clause 1 includes the text:

      the right of a citizen of one State to pass through, or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise;

      This is the basis for the conclusion that we have a specifically protected right to travel.

    32. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      BTW, this would not be an issue or illegal if it was still private security at the airport.

      So it is perfectly acceptable to you if a large corporation wants to search you and your effects prior to letting you buy their product (which you need to buy to be able to exercise other rights you have), but is not acceptable if a government does it for the very same reasons?

      I pointed out the "need to buy" part because so much of the argument about TSA searches includes the idea that travel by air is an essential part of the freedom to travel and that taking other modes is not sufficient to provide "choice" in the matter. I.e., one needs to travel, and travel by other-than-air is not a reasonable mode to accomplish that.

      Would you be comfortable with Comcast, e.g., assuming the right to search your computer to make sure you did not use or had not used their internet service for illegal activity? By the way, part of the contract you sign with them includes a section prohibiting use of their service for illegal activities.

    33. Re:This is ridiculous. by TWX · · Score: 2

      It may not have constitutional authority, but might makes right.

      Andrew Jackson force-marched indigenous people thousands of miles from the ancestral lands that they'd continuously occupied for longer than this nation had existed to open that land up to settlers of European ancestry, even against court-order, because Congress didn't join with the Supreme Court and force his hand.

      Andrew Jackson is featured on our money, despite falling into your definition of a traitor.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    34. Re:This is ridiculous. by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      That we have come to this point is a sad commentary on the United States. That many others not only accept this but actively defend it is even more disappointing.

      It is sad. As an American, I have to admit defeat in a war that I did not know was being fought, despite endless, constant mention of it.

      I guess we could start practicing things like forgiveness and piety any time we want though.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    35. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      You've now substituted the word "innocuous" for the fourth's "unreasonable" and are applying your own subjective definition to it.

      General warrants are unconstitutional, and yet somehow, magically, it's okay to molest everyone at airports without even so much as a warrant or suspicion? Yeah, right.

      Nineteen people taking out 3500 was not an innocuous act.

      Oh, screw off. You know that I'm talking about the many innocents who have their rights violated by the TSA.

      It is quite explicit, if you can read simple English when you pass by the sign. They've said "they want to" search you before you ever reach a point where they actually search you.

      I'm not talking about *them*, I'm talking about people 'consenting' to the search. TSA apologists sometimes make the argument that you implicitly consent to waiving your constitutional rights by trying to get on a plane when you know the TSA is going to try to search you.

      I can "want to get on a plane" all day long and I'll never be subject to a search

      Man...

    36. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      Nineteen people taking out 3500 was not an innocuous act.

      Or are you saying that because some people are bad, nobody should have rights? I doubt it, but who the fuck knows. Either way, in the land of the free and the home of the brave, violating everyone's rights and privacy merely because some people are Bad Guys is unacceptable.

    37. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The perpetrators of 9/11 succeeded by declaring they had a bomb. All they had was box cutters but nobody called them on the bluff except for flight 93 which came to late to save the people on the plane. If someone tried to do the same thing today they would be mobbed by the passengers all looking to get a boot in. And the government was not totally responsible for airport security and all the inconveniences that entails. It was the public who demanded the government "do something" to prevent the problem from happening again. When's the last time the government did anything that wasn't a total cock up from start to finish? If the government eliminated the most bothersome aspects of airline security they would be crucified when the next attack happens. And the loudest critics would be those people who today are complaining about too much security in the first place. And didn't this article say they needed to modify the scanner software to show "all clear" to the operators? That's a pretty high barrier to overcome in order to exploit the scanner.

    38. Re:This is ridiculous. by apraetor · · Score: 1

      This argument is a bit disingenuous. The 4th Amendment prevents searches when you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. As you are in public in an airport/on an airplane, and there is an overriding public interest in preventing weapons from being brought on-board an aircraft, it is legal to require consensual searches before boarding to look specifically for weapons -- because an aircraft en route is very isolated and in an emergency there would be no way to get help on board, short of landing -- which tips the "public good vs. right to privacy" scale toward "public good". Now, if you want to argue that requiring photo ID for domestic flights is unreasonable I'd agree.

    39. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

      My argument is that they are government agents bound by the restrictions of the constitution. The reason that it is not an issue with private security is because it can be a contractual stipulation of purchase.

      Just like being searched on the way out of a store is voluntary and you can simply decline, where as being searched on the way out of Sam's or Cosco is a stipulation of the contract and can not be declined without giving up your purchase and membership.

    40. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

      So your argument is that if you are in public you do not have an "expectation of privacy"? There is no such statement in the 4th amendment and no exception for public interest. I find it funny that you said "require consensual searches" If it is required it is not consensual!

      You are wrong, you can refuse to be searched when walking down the street, you can refuse to allow a cop to search your car when you are pulled over. Your right is to be secure in your PERSONS, PAPERS, and EFFECTS. That includes your shoes, luggage, and your clothing. What you are doing is justifying a trade of others rights on the believe that it will bring you some security. Now, your next point will be a cop stopping you and patting you down on the street being legal. It is only legal when there is a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a criminal activity. Getting on a plane is not a criminal activity.

      BTW, There were guns on planes prior to the 1970's Hijackings did not start tell they banned them. Go figure.

    41. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I claim the TSA search is "reasonable", hence not in violation of the 4th (which only protects against "unreasonable" searches) -- and also, there is very clear indication of what is being searched: your person and your belongings, specifically to find the weapons that are banned inside the secure zone.

      The TSA are not searching your financial / medical records, they are not searching your house, they are searching the physical things you are trying to bring into a relatively tiny secured area.

    42. Re:This is ridiculous. by apraetor · · Score: 1

      Huh? It's perfectly legal to require a person to consent to a search in order to enter a private business. Plenty of stores have signs saying that they reserve the right to search your backpack/purse upon entering. Most rarely do, but they COULD do it to every person. You are correct, you can refuse the search -- and the business has the right to refuse you permission to enter if you decline. You have every right to fly without being searched, in your own airplane. Airlines have an interest in protecting their passengers and their property. Most of us can't afford our own airplanes, but that doesn't mean that we get to pretend we have the same rights on a commercial aircraft as we would on a privately-owned one.

    43. Re:This is ridiculous. by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Really? The public demanded? Who? Where? When? All I remember is scaremongering from the press and politicians telling us that the sky is about to fall and how they need to protect us.

      I honestly cannot remember a single instance where anyone demanded to trade his liberties for "safety".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    44. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 0

      General warrants are unconstitutional,

      Warrants have nothing to do with this. Just because they are also part of the fourth amendment doesn't make any issue involving the other parts also an issue with warrants.

      and yet somehow, magically, it's okay to molest everyone at airports

      Who said that? You? It wasn't me.

      You know that I'm talking about the many innocents who have their rights violated by the TSA.

      I know you are substituting a different subjective word for the one really found in the fourth amendment and are now arguing based on your personal definition of that different word.

      I'm not talking about *them*, I'm talking about people 'consenting' to the search.

      "Them" are told before they get in line they are subject to search if they go past that point. It's explicit.

      TSA apologists sometimes make the argument that you implicitly consent to waiving your constitutional rights by trying to get on a plane when you know the TSA is going to try to search you.

      I am neither a TSA apologist nor have I (incorrectly) argued that there is an implicit waiver. I was quite explicit in saying that there is an explicit waiver involved. "Go past this point and you are subject to search." You see that explicit statement and then choose to go past that point. That's an explicit waiver.

      I can "want to get on a plane" all day long and I'll never be subject to a search

      Man...

      You claimed that people were waiving their rights just for wanting to get on a plane. Now you refuse to stand behind your own statement. I showed you were wrong. It is the act of passing the entry point of the security line that triggers the waiver, whether or not you want to get on a plane. Thousands of airport employees go through security every day without wanting to get on a plane, and I can want to get on a plane all day and never be subject to search. Man, yourself.

    45. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 2

      Warrants have nothing to do with this.

      For fuck's sake. The point was that general warrants are unconstitutional, so why the hell would it be okay to search everyone *without even so much as having a warrant*? It was to demonstrate just how absurd this situation is, not to say that warrants are somehow involved in this situation.

      Who said that? You? It wasn't me.

      In that case, hopefully no one.

      I know you are substituting a different subjective word for the one really found in the fourth amendment and are now arguing based on your personal definition of that different word.

      I'm arguing that the idea that the government has the power to force you to surrender rights if you try to do something (in this case, travel on a plane) that isn't illegal (merely because some people could do something illegal) is absurd. I thought that would've been clear, but if it wasn't clear, I think it should be now.

      But I see where this is going. Rather than focusing on my fundamental points, you're just being pedantic and nitpicking at my usage of the English language.

      I am neither a TSA apologist nor have I (incorrectly) argued that there is an implicit waiver. I was quite explicit in saying that there is an explicit waiver involved. "Go past this point and you are subject to search." You see that explicit statement and then choose to go past that point. That's an explicit waiver.

      The implicit part is supposedly your acceptance of being searched, not the idea that you will be searched (which is spelled out explicitly).

      You claimed that people were waiving their rights just for wanting to get on a plane.

      Dude, you're pedantic as fuck. I don't know if you've ever heard of exaggerations or how normal people use language (which is rarely 100% precise), but you should get acquainted with those things, and fast. Just my opinion.

    46. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      And the loudest critics would be those people who today are complaining about too much security in the first place.

      I never asked for these unconstitutional violations of our fundamental rights on 9/11, and I sure as hell wouldn't ask for them in the future. I believe that freedom is more important than safety, and in 'the land of the free and the home of the brave,' I would think everyone else would, too.

      So don't pretend to know what others wanted, want, or would want.

    47. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 2

      I claim the TSA search is "reasonable"

      Then you don't exactly belong in 'the land of the free and the home of the brave,' now do you?

      The idea that general warrants are unconstitutional, while having government agents search everyone who tries to get on a plane without even so much as a warrant merely because some people criminals/terrorists, is absolutely absurd. No, it's not "reasonable" in any way, shape or form. This issue is black-and-white, and settled. No amount of authoritarian 'logic' will show otherwise.

    48. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      But hey, let's just give the government unlimited power. Wow, suddenly it's "reasonable" to search everyone's houses at random, and entire cities are now secured areas! Therefore, it's 100% constitutional.

    49. Re:This is ridiculous. by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Nineteen people taking out 3500...

      ...out of some 5+ billion that have walked through US airport security checkpoints since. Out of (pessimistically) 50,000 people with the will or propensity to inflict ill will via items contained on their person or in their luggage on others. (And arguably 5 that could be successful on a given trip.) ...At a cost of countless millions of wasted hours, billions of wasted dollars, and fundamentally liberty lost.

      Pretty good for the contractors though...

    50. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Passengers had also been conditioned to just stay in their seats and be calm. That would never happen today. Even on 9/11, the passengers on Flight 93 figured out that it was fight back or die trying.

      Which is why I believe the passengers on Flight 93 should have been retroactively inducted into the National Guard, given metals for saving lives and their families provided for. They were rather actively defending their country from our enemies.

    51. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      For fuck's sake. The point was that general warrants are unconstitutional,

      No, the point I joined the discussion to make was that YOUR claim that there was some implicit waiving of rights was incorrect. YOU want to talk about warrants, as if warrants had something to do with this to begin with, and they don't. There are no warrants involved in any part of a TSA security process. Not a single one.

      so why the hell would it be okay to search everyone *without even so much as having a warrant*?

      Because the constitution says it is. There isn't a blanket prohibition against ALL searches, only UNREASONABLE ones. That word has come up more than once in just our discussion so I know you know it's there. It's a subjective term, just like "innocuous" that you want to think applies somehow. You do NOT need a warrant for a reasonable search, even if that reasonable search means you search everyone who wants "to do something". End of story. Every prospective juror going in the door (who "wanted to keep from going to jail for contempt of court") got searched -- no warrant required. Every visitor to the local jail inmates gets searched. No warrant required.

      Warrants are not the issue because no warrants are involved. And before you try another bit of nonsense, the fourth amendment does not define "reasonable" to mean "a warrant has been issued", nor have the courts defined it that way.

      I'm arguing that the idea that the government has the power to force you to surrender rights if you try to do something (in this case, travel on a plane) that isn't illegal (merely because some people could do something illegal) is absurd.

      That's patently false. I've already given examples of where waiving the fourth amendment right is quite reasonable for certain values of "something". It isn't illegal to visit a prisoner in jail, but you have to waive your rights to do it. If you want to drive about on a military installation, you waive your rights. And if you obey the summons to jury duty, the government not only compels you to appear, they search you when you do. So no, just flapping your gums and saying they can't force you to waive your rights just to "do something" is absurd itself, and contradicted by many trivial examples.

      But I see where this is going. Rather than focusing on my fundamental points, you're just being pedantic and nitpicking at my usage of the English language.

      From the very beginning I have been explicit in saying that I'm talking about your claims of implicit waivers of rights. The fact that you are just catching on to that fact now tells me you didn't bother trying to comprehend the words I posted.

      The implicit part is supposedly your acceptance of being searched,

      No, it is not. Your act of passing the point where you have been told that you are subject to search is an EXPLICIT act, and it is an explicit acceptance of the terms. You didn't wander past the checkpoint entrance on a whim, you made a deliberate choice to enter.

      Dude, you're pedantic as fuck. I don't know if you've ever heard of exaggerations or how normal people use language (which is rarely 100% precise), but you should get acquainted with those things, and fast.

      You should stop writing things that are patently absurd and then jumping down the throats of those who tell you they are absurd. Maybe read what you're replying to before doing so, to keep yourself from finding out five levels down into the discussion that the person you are trying to convince how bad it is that there are searches ISN'T ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT THEM BEING BAD, only about your incorrect representation of what is going on.

    52. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      Enough of this. I've already explained myself as well as I possibly can. My definition of "unreasonable" is set in stone, as well.

      You should stop writing things that are patently absurd and then jumping down the throats of those who tell you they are absurd.

      I haven't jumped down anyone's throats. That doesn't even fucking make any sense, you fool. How could a human fit in another human's throat? That would be quite something, and I've never seen such a thing. You should stop writing things that are patently absurd and then getting angry when others point out your stupid mistakes.

    53. Re:This is ridiculous. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Then you don't exactly belong in 'the land of the free and the home of the brave,' now do you?

      He absolutely doesn't belong here, because in the land of the free there is no room to tolerate any differences of opinion. It simply cannot be allowed.

      This issue is black-and-white, and settled.

      While it may not be black and white, it has been settled. The Supreme Court has ruled that TSA security checkpoints are an obvious violation of the fourth amendment ... ummm, wait a minute.

    54. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 0

      He absolutely doesn't belong here, because in the land of the free there is no room to tolerate any differences of opinion.

      I'm saying that he might want to move somewhere that is more to his liking. North Korea, for instance.

      Wait, it's you again.

      The Supreme Court has ruled that TSA security checkpoints are an obvious violation of the fourth amendment ... ummm, wait a minute.

      I disagree with many Supreme Court rulings.

      And you know, if you were mistaken, you could've just edited that part out of your comment before you submitted it. You didn't have to write, "ummm, wait a minute." How stupid of you.

    55. Re: This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was little, my family used to be able to drive on the Interstate system to Florida. Now, attempting to do that would destroy your car.

      Geez, exaggerate much?

    56. Re:This is ridiculous. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Even if one accepts a failure of security, the only "tightening of security" that would have made any difference today versus on 9/11 are the locked, reinforced cockpit doors.

      This, and only this, was required. Israel had them for decades, so there's not even a reasonable smidgin of doubt that this wasn't a well-known way to stop a hijacking.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    57. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have every right to fly without being searched, in your own airplane.

      No, you don't. Try getting on or off your private plane at a major or large regional airport, unless you're a professional pilot, you're going to be screened. The only way to avoid The Shithole Agency is to fly out of an airport without a TSA presence: small regionals, local airfields, private fields. Travel will become more fun as they expand into major bus and train hubs...

    58. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pointed out the "need to buy" part because so much of the argument about TSA searches includes the idea that travel by air is an essential part of the freedom to travel and that taking other modes is not sufficient to provide "choice" in the matter. I.e., one needs to travel, and travel by other-than-air is not a reasonable mode to accomplish that.

      That assertion that travel-by-air is an essential part of freedom seems a stretch, however you still have options here such as chartering your own plane. That you decide to use a lower cost service that requires you to be subject to electronic / physical searches is entirely up to you.
      Other travel options are available that may not have this restriction - walk, ride a horse, ride a bicycle, drive a car, take a boat or ship - would imply that you are choosing convenience (reduced time) and sacrificing privacy.

    59. Re:This is ridiculous. by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      If you want to get all strict-constructionist on this matter though, planes, cars, buses, and rail didn't even exist when the Constitution was written, so one could argue that there's no Constitutional protection when travelling by anything beyond horseback, carriage, or walking.

      This argument doesn't make any sense, and certainly wouldn't to a strict-constructionist.

      Either the Constitution was intended to cover any type of travel when originally written, or it wasn't.

      If it was, then any type of travel is protected, because nothing in the Constitution authorizes the government to restrict travel.

      If (as you argue) it wasn't intended to cover, say, flying, because it didn't exist at that time yet (silly, no one really argues that but let's go with it...), then still, nothing in the Constitution authorizes the government to restrict travel via flying.

      The fallacy you seem to be falling into is thinking that the Constitution needs to explicitly permit or protect a particular freedom (like travel) or else the government can do what they want in regards to it. The Constitution doesn't grant people rights and doesn't protect only enumerated freedoms. It enumerates specific powers for the government and reserves everything not specifically granted to the States and the people.So if the Constitution doesn't apply to something, then the Federal government doesn't have any authority whatsoever in regards to that something.

      In actual fact, the courts have ruled that any limitation on the fundamental right to travel must pass strict scrutiny. See a few hundred thousand links from Google.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    60. Re:This is ridiculous. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      General warrants are unconstitutional, and yet somehow, magically, it's okay to molest everyone at airports without even so much as a warrant or suspicion? Yeah, right.

      They aren't searching people for criminal reasons. You aren't under suspicion of a crime, and nothing found will be used to investigate that crime. Theoretically, if they found evidence of smuggling, they are required to pass you through security unmolested (provided you meet all the other requirements). It's for that reason that they are "legal".

      I'm talking about people 'consenting' to the search. TSA apologists sometimes make the argument that you implicitly consent to waiving your constitutional rights by trying to get on a plane when you know the TSA is going to try to search you.

      You aren't implicitly consenting by getting in a plane I've flown a number of times with no search at all. You are explicitly complying when you walk past the "you will be searched if you pass this sign" sign. That isn't implicitly waiving a constitutional right. That's explicitly doing it.

    61. Re:This is ridiculous. by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately for your position, the courts have always provided interpretation to the Constitution, and many instances of limits on the defined words of the Constitution are found in law.

      This is true.

      If you want to get all strict-constructionist on this matter though, planes, cars, buses, and rail didn't even exist when the Constitution was written, so one could argue that there's no Constitutional protection when travelling by anything beyond horseback, carriage, or walking.

      WHAAA??!! Where did this non sequitur come from??

      Look -- I'm all for the "technology sometimes might change the way we need to interpret rights thing" -- I don't think the Framers meant that we get to have our own personal nuclear warheads just because we have "the right to bear arms," for example.

      But you've made a complete non sequitur here. The Fourth Amendment, which is what's at issue here, says the following:

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      I don't see ANYTHING there that mentions a mode of travel. It says you get to be "secure" in your "person" as well as your "papers" and "effects." There's no implication that any of those rights would be forfeited depending on whether you were travelling, sitting in your house, or walking down the street.

      To say that you should forfeit that right simply to board an airplane because airplanes didn't exist at the time of the Constitution is like saying I also forfeit that right when I walk out my front door because the type of concrete mixture in my sidewalk and the breed of grass grown on my lawn didn't exist at the time of the Constitution either. Perhaps I can't even get protection in my house either if I'm wearing shoes or socks, since I'm using the novel rubber-blend sole shoes and the nylon socks to "travel" around my house.

      This is preposterous. Travel has no mention -- nothing in the Fourth Amendment. You might as well say you lose your freedom of speech while reading your Kindle, because Kindles didn't exist when the Constitution was written. Or we can quarter soldiers in your house if you ate a Big Mac today, because Big Macs weren't invented when the Constitution was written.

      Those things would have as much to do with those rights as some new method of travel would have to do with a right against unnecessary searches.

      our society realized that it wasn't gonna work to let the airlines be in charge of security.

      Completely and utterly false. "Our society" didn't realize anything. Our government realized that this was a great place for a power grab. And there have been no studies done since that have shown the TSA is more effective than the private airline searches were -- between flaws in equipment and flaws in TSA employees who miss things, EVERY single test given the TSA has generally failed to prevent huge amounts of contraband.

      And somehow, despite your implication that the Constitution could have evolved over 200+ years in the Fourth Amendment, it hadn't very much at all. The explicit prohibition against "general warrants" (which was the main reason the Fourth Amendment was written -- to prevent blanket searches and seizures, hence requirements of probable cause, specified person, place, or things) held strong until 2001.

      The exceptions to that amendment before 2001 were very small and circumscribed. At airports, previous searches of persons were minimal (only a metal detector, to avoid huge weapons), and they were run by private companies as a condition of using the facilities of their company. (The Constitution doesn't require private companies to provide yo

    62. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      That's explicitly doing it.

      Well, the government doesn't have the power to force you to do that in order for you to be able to get in a plane, either. But that won't stop TSA apologists from using one of these arguments.

    63. Re:This is ridiculous. by sjames · · Score: 1

      It is a constructive violation of our rights and is only continuing because the courts practically break their necks looking the other way.

      Some argue you weren't forced to make a right turn, you were just prohibited from going forward, backing up, turning left or staying where you were. Constructively though, you were forced to turn right.

      A strict constructionist wouldn't be bothered in the least if automobiles existed or not back then. They would only be concerned with the freedom of movement and point out that by car is a method of movement and therefor carries that freedom.

      A strict constructionist would also recognize that the Constitution is a complete enumeration of the government's power but is far from a complete enumeration of the rights of the people.

      Based on that, the extreme argument would be that cars and planes didn't exist back then therefor the government has been granted no authority over them at all. But that would be going to a silly extreme

    64. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless of how "essential" it is, the government can't hold your ability to ride on a plane hostage until you consent to a search merely because you might be a Bad Guy.

    65. Re:This is ridiculous. by sjames · · Score: 2

      Finally, I remember that when I was younger (mind you, this was back in the 1970's), having to provide identification and being subjected to searches before being able to travel was the scope of godless Communists and tinpot dictators.

      THIS! A million times over.

      I specifically remember my social studies teacher in elementary school telling us the U.S. is good and Russia is bad and then explaining why. One reason is because in Russia you had to show your papers just to travel. Another was that in Russia the KGB listened to your phone calls.

      The commies didn't die out, they just took over the U.S.

    66. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.S. I'm NOT a libertarian wacko. If I truly believed that the TSA has done ANYTHING to make us safer, I might consider how it could be done in a reasonable but perhaps still Constitutional fashion.

      You don't have to be a "libertarian wacko" in order to believe that people (especially those in "the land of the free and the home of the brave") should value freedom over safety. The only constitutional TSA is one that doesn't exist, regardless of how effective they are.

    67. Re:This is ridiculous. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What's "TSA apologist"? Anyone who doesn't share your ideals?

    68. Re:This is ridiculous. by msi · · Score: 1

      To say that you should forfeit that right simply to board an airplane because airplanes didn't exist at the time of the Constitution is like saying I also forfeit that right when I walk out my front door because the type of concrete mixture in my sidewalk and the breed of grass grown on my lawn didn't exist at the time of the Constitution either. Perhaps I can't even get protection in my house either if I'm wearing shoes or socks, since I'm using the novel rubber-blend sole shoes and the nylon socks to "travel" around my house.

      Shh don't give them any ideas

    69. Re:This is ridiculous. by kimvette · · Score: 1

      > The reason 9/11 worked out was because people were used to other kinds of plane hijackings. Hijackers that steal a plane, fly it somewhere, then demand something to be fulfilled before returning plane and passengers.

      Exactly. It has always been an opportunity to visit places Americans are prohibited from traveling to, such as Cuba. 9/11 was a game-changer which results in passengers subduing would-be hijackers. Hell, I'd love to see passengers permanently maim and disfigure one of those fuckers and maybe force feed them pork as the ultimate insult.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    70. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real sad part is that the shitheads didn't try and hijack Southwest flights instead of American and Delta. Southwest passengers already had killed one guy for trying to hijack a plane before 9/11.

      Also, don't mess with Chinese passengers.

    71. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. And? Do vile acts by AJ in the past somehow excuse modern government's unconstitutional acts? I don't happen to believe that past bad behavior by someone excuses current bad behavior by someone else.

    72. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? It's perfectly legal to require a person to consent to a search in order to enter a private business. Plenty of stores have signs saying that they reserve the right to search your backpack/purse upon entering. Most rarely do, but they COULD do it to every person. You are correct, you can refuse the search -- and the business has the right to refuse you permission to enter if you decline.

      And the most said private business can do is deny entrance or throw you out. They can't detain you or arrest you for refusing the search.

      You have every right to fly without being searched, in your own airplane. Airlines have an interest in protecting their passengers and their property. Most of us can't afford our own airplanes, but that doesn't mean that we get to pretend we have the same rights on a commercial aircraft as we would on a privately-owned one.

      And here you conflate two issues. When you fly on a commercial aircraft, you are not being searched by a private business, you are being searched by agents of the federal government. You and your effects are being seized and searched, without a warrant, by a government which is expressly *disallowed* to seize *or* search without a warrant specifically describing what is to be searched, and what is being sought, along with an explanation (under oath) of *why* they expect to find what they are looking for. Said warrants cannot be gotten to look for 'something' on or about 'anyone or their property' 'because'. Those are called general warrants, which are expressly forbidden *period*.

    73. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      Someone who thinks it's okay that we violate people's fundamental liberties and the highest law of the land in exchange for safety (dubious safety, at that). In other words, morons. I would think freedom-minded individuals would agree that they are nothing more than poison to a free society.

      So, yes, I'm fundamentally opposed to their thinking, and yes, I will insult such people.

    74. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally, I remember that when I was younger (mind you, this was back in the 1970's), having to provide identification and being subjected to searches before being able to travel was the scope of godless Communists and tinpot dictators.

      God, yes. I remember the tail end of the Cold War (born in '78) but the way Soviets did things were what I was raised to be against. Spying on your own citizens? Torture?!? Those are things evil people do! ...and now here we are.

    75. Re:This is ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We could roll back the "enhanced security" to pre-911 levels, keeping only those cockpit door improvements, and we'd be just as safe as we are right now."

      And at probably 1/1000000 of the cost.

      How about letting the pilots also be armed? Now we're starting to talk real security.
      How about letting the passengers keep their incidental pocket knives which could defend against a box cutter, but not be much of a threat to anything else?

    76. Re:This is ridiculous. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Someone who thinks it's okay that we violate people's fundamental liberties and the highest law of the land in exchange for safety (dubious safety, at that). In other words, morons. I would think freedom-minded individuals would agree that they are nothing more than poison to a free society.

      Then I saw nobody post anything in the chain that indicated there were any such people. People who explain the law, as enforced, to you aren't "defending" it or asserting they think it's ok.

      You should learn to make such distinctions, or you'll come off looking like the moron.

    77. Re:This is ridiculous. by redeIm · · Score: 1

      Then I saw nobody post anything in the chain that indicated there were any such people.

      I never said they were here, in this article, specifically. But I've seen many of them, and that's where I heard such ridiculous arguments to begin with.

      The only one I can think of who comes close is this guy. He claimed that he himself thinks that the TSA search is reasonable and made an effort to defend it. If that's not what he was doing, then people who explain the law, as it is enforced, don't do a very good job of distinguishing themselves from individuals who think the law, as it is enforced, is good.

      You should learn to make such distinctions, or you'll come off looking like the moron.

      I can easily make that distinction when they explain themselves properly.

    78. Re:This is ridiculous. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Praising the actions of citizens acting as a traditional militia goes against the whole idea of them being forced to pay for their own subjugation. That is especially the case since those citizens acting as a militia were the only thing that worked to stop any of the four planes despite having been disarmed for their own good.

    79. Re:This is ridiculous. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      That strategy ceased to be effective at 9:03AM on 9/11/2001 over a field in Shanksville, PA. And you know who figured that out? Ordinary Americans, doing the security calculus themselves, where the government had completely failed to protect them, despite having many opportunities to do so.

      And not only did the government fail to protect them and others, it did so while enforcing policies to prevent them from protecting themselves and others.

      I think they got the government they deserve and continue to do so.

  4. And yet, still no 9/11-2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Even more evidence those things aren't worth the paper they were drafted on. They're garbage, shitcan them already.

    1. Re:And yet, still no 9/11-2 by redeIm · · Score: 0

      Even if they did keep us safe, we should reject them; the TSA is 100% unconstitutional and must be eliminated. Truly free and brave people wouldn't allow this to happen, and yet only some people vote and protest based on their principles.

    2. Re:And yet, still no 9/11-2 by m1ss1ontomars2k4 · · Score: 1

      The implication of your statement is that if these devices _did_ work, we would expect that 9/11-2 would have happened by now. Think about that for a minute.

    3. Re:And yet, still no 9/11-2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, his implication is that the devices are known to *NOT* work, and there *still* hasn't been a 9/11-2. Therefore they are pointless, and can be eliminated *without* allowing a 9/11-2 to occur.

  5. Belly Fat by maxrate · · Score: 2

    What if you have an enormous gut? If it hung over your waste/belt line you could probably fit a small weapon in the fold.

    1. Re:Belly Fat by TWX · · Score: 1

      I believe that exact flaw in the tech was demonstrated some years ago.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  6. The x-ray machines are very successful by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They're successful when you consider that the point was to move tax revenue to crony pockets:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

  7. Rapiscan by fnj · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Rape-a-scan?

    1. Re:Rapiscan by TWX · · Score: 1

      Rapey-scan
      Rape-igh-scan

      ...etc

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:Rapiscan by danbert8 · · Score: 0

      No, Rapey-scan.

      I can just visualize the conference room where they decided the name of the product:

      Hey guys, we need to name this unconstitutional search device that shows nude images of disgruntled people who will hate us. Any ideas?

      Well we want it to sound fast so they don't blame lines on it... How about "rapid scan".

      Hmm, that doesn't sound very awesome... How about "Rapiscan?"

      But doesn't that look a bit like it has the word "rape" in it?

      No! Get your mind out of the gutter Simmons. No non-pervert would ever pronounce it that way!

      Well basically something like this:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
  8. hehe by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Funny

    "A clever attacker can smuggle contraband past the machines using surprisingly low-tech techniques."

    Please, God, Tell me it's tinfoil... plz plz plz plz

    1. Re:hehe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great finds! They truly are.

      It's sad to see that this kind of research is done when they are decommissioned.
      There should have been room to do this research prior they went in production.

    2. Re:hehe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but first I think you must fashion it as a hat! Oh no, wait, that's to protect from another type of machine.

    3. Re:hehe by Minwee · · Score: 1

      "A clever attacker can smuggle contraband past the machines using surprisingly low-tech techniques."

      Please, God, Tell me it's tinfoil... plz plz plz plz

      Didn't you ever wonder why every time you go to the store to buy tinfoil, The Government has replaced it with aluminum?

    4. Re:hehe by GiganticLyingMouth · · Score: 1

      It was stated in a different article that they were unable to procure the current ones used in airports (millimeter wave), and that it was already rather difficult for them to acquire this one -- perhaps now you know why

    5. Re:hehe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course he didn't. Nobody wonders, because the government's mind control rays are actually FOCUSED by aluminum foil hats!

    6. Re:hehe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Difficult to acquire? They got it off Ebay. Seriously. RTFA.

  9. What devices *don't* have security flaws? by RobinH · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At this point nobody's going to be surprised if any device tested has blatant security flaws. The only interesting story would be if someone found a device with no actual flaws. That would be news.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:What devices *don't* have security flaws? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      At this point nobody's going to be surprised if any device tested has blatant security flaws. The only interesting story would be if someone found a device with no actual flaws. That would be news.

      A machine without flaws? No, that just means it wasn't tested well enough.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  10. Belly Fat by ne0n · · Score: 1

    As demonstrated here using a small dog?
    Gary Larsen ahead of his time as usual.

    --
    $ :(){ :|:& };:
  11. Magic government security tools by swb · · Score: 1

    What's worse about this is that the government buys into these security technologies as if they were magic, both financially and from a security perspective, treating them as if they were prima facie proof of guilt/innocence.

    Yet at the same time they classify the technologies, prohibiting anyone from gaining any information about them or validating whether they work. The cynic of course knows this is just to hide their failings for political and commercial reasons "to prevent terrorists" from exploiting them.

    1. Re:Magic government security tools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course. You see, if another incident happens and it is just because the technology 'failed' - they get to blame the people who sold them the magic lantern. The politician gets re-elected because it 'twernt *their* fault. But if another incident happens and they didn't buy the magic lantern.... the politicians get blamed and not re-elected because they didn't care about safety enough.

  12. Re:This is ridiculous. WRONG WRONG WRONG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The constitution is not a 'whitelist'!

    9th Amendment:

            The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    10th Amendment

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

  13. A truly clever attacker ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... would casually stroll across the Mexican border. The low-tech solution.

  14. Belly Fat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didnt read the linked article but I'm guessing this is really nothing more then a slap-a-bullshit-story on slashdot. I would guess you need access to the machine in order for it to be "hacked" good luck trying to do that in front of TSA agents, and hidden video cameras.

  15. Theaven't changed the name yet? by gurps_npc · · Score: 0

    I mean really, calling your company rapiscan? Do they not care at all about public opinion?

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  16. How is that news? by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

    I remember people successfully demonstrating tricking those things since they were first released.

  17. Re:This is ridiculous. WRONG WRONG WRONG by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Or, more specifically, it's a "white list" of what the government is allowed to do. If the government wants to do X and X isn't white listed in the Constitution, they can either not do X or try to amend the Constitution to allow X. (Or, in the real world, do X anyway as secretive as possible and hope the courts don't order them to stop.)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  18. Curiosity by pkinetics · · Score: 1

    Probably a rhetorical question

    Has any technology that was rushed / pushed after 9/11 actually worked as promised?

    Or has it been the usual over hyped marketing pitch "We can solve your problems! And even ones you don't even have!"

    1. Re:Curiosity by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Rushing any new technology pretty much makes it a given that it won't work as advertised. This is even more true when the buyer is the government and they are trying to calm fear.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  19. No great surprise. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is pronounced like "rapid" since it's supposed to imply that the scanning process is quick and painless. Although these man-sized scanners get a lot of press, their primary product was (and remains) fixed and vehicle-mounted (boom-arm) scanners bit enough to scan entire cargo containers in a single pass. It has been know for quite some time that those could be fooled, so it's not much of a surprise that the man-sized ones can too.

    Posting anonymously because I have inside knowledge of their products, I used to represent them in a certain field (not sales).

  20. Just an excuse for posting dick pics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what happens when material scientists get banned from Grindr.

  21. In Soviet... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

    In modern America, you don't go to cons. You become them.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  22. 2 years later by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Jon Corbett was reporting on this at least 2 years ago. Video here and articles in numerous locations. If I remember correctly, he was threatened by the DOJ and put on a no fly list for his trouble, in addition to being ignored by MSM.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  23. It is both white- and black-lists by apraetor · · Score: 1

    The US Constitution is both. It is a "white list" of powers assigned explicitly to the Federal government, with the remainder falling under "state's rights". It also contains a "black list", in the form of the Bill of Rights, which enumerates certain areas as being explicitly off-limits to both the Federal and State governments.

  24. He's surprised... by koan · · Score: 1

    That airport security and personnel are one giant joke, but of course not the kind you laugh at or with.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  25. Re:This is ridiculous. WRONG WRONG WRONG by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

    Or, in the real world, do X anyway as secretive as possible and hope the courts don't order them to stop.

    The courts don't mean much to these people - the FISA court's own statements about being misled by the NSA proves that. The only thing within the law guaranteed to stop them is to start jailing those responsible or cutting off their funding.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  26. The Inconvenient Truth by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    The inconvenient truth is that there is no actual way to stop a highly trained and capable team of individuals from weaponizing most things already INSIDE an airplane, and any trained individual could easily construct passable materials that could be easily reassembled on any airplane anyway.

    You're doing it wrong.

    Get rid of the TSA and stop wasting our time with this farce.

    Want to stop terrorism on planes? Drill into passengers that they must throw coats and blankets and jump on all terrorists or they will all die.

    That works.

    The rest is crap.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  27. What about the radiation dosage? by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

    Can we now get a reliable measurement of the amount of energy output and absorption rates as well as which tissues and locations take the heaviest dose?

  28. Hacking the machine by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

    "Hacking the machine" was only one of many attack vectors. The more common attacks desribed were fixing stuff to the side of your body, rather than to the front or to the back (easily twarted by making you turn sideways, or visually looking for the much more obvious bulges if you try to "hide" weapons that way), or hiding the weapons behind a piece of Teflon (which reflects the rays the same way as the body, hiding everything behind it... but there still might be tell-tale contours if not done right)

  29. Belly Fat by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

    Indeed, the puppy is very well hidden... but not in belly folds but in buggy html or miguided deep link protection. Anybody has a URL of this picture which accepts to be viewed from Slashdot?

  30. What's to be afraid of? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

    Nothing to be afraid of. They're just "back-scatter x-rays."

  31. Use the anus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Insert _____ deeply into anus. Fool all current and future detections.

    Also, "we hacked the software and then it didn't work" --- wow, no shit