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Is There a Creativity Deficit In Science?

nerdyalien writes with this story that explores the impact of reduced science funding on innovation in science. "There’s a current problem in biomedical research,” says American biochemist Robert Lefkowitz, winner of the 2012 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. “The emphasis is on doing things which are not risky. To have a grant proposal funded, you have to propose something and then present what is called preliminary data, which is basically evidence that you’ve already done what you’re proposing to do. If there’s any risk involved, then your proposal won’t be funded. So the entire system tends to encourage not particularly creative research, relatively descriptive and incremental changes which are incremental advances which you are certain to make but not change things very much."...There is no more important time for science to leverage its most creative minds in attempting to solve our global challenges. Although there have been massive increases in funding over the last few decades, the ideas and researchers that have been rewarded by the current peer-review system have tended to be safer, incremental, and established. If we want science to be its most innovative, it's not about finding brilliant, passionate creative scientists; it's about supporting the ones we already have.

203 comments

  1. affirmative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    yes

    1. Re:affirmative by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Just look at some of the more successful companies - many of them have had a "skunk works" department where they could do the research and innovations in a less restricted area.

      And a lot of creative people are also less socially competent, which means that they have a harder time to get funding.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:affirmative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, but it depends on your perspective.

      Risky is one thing, but unsupported is another. If I were to submit a proposal to graft bat wings onto mice to see if they could learn to fly. I would probably not get funding. However, if I were to also submit close relation ships between the species and how this reduces the chance for rejection, the neural science showing that the brain could learn to control them, etc... Then I might get funding.

      Now in electrical engineering, chemical engineering, particle physics, and the like this is more true. These fields are more open to expansion, and we need to try really off the wall things to find out new things. So getting funding for these can be really difficult especially when the proposal requires high precision that can't be done in a mock up test. The only way to get funding there is to attempt to show that we have no idea what would happen and hope for the best.

    3. Re:affirmative by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not as bad as all that, but it's still not great.

      Basically the way it works is this:

      A young, energetic research employed on grant A burns themself out moonlighting on project B.

      They then present the complete B as a proposal which might get funded.

      B gets funded and they use the money for B to work on C.

      Risky stuff does get done, and using exactly the same money but the funding bodies are entering into the fiction that they're involved in the risk. Of course they are since the money has to come from somewhere. It also involves a shitty life for the early career researcher.

      So, the funding bodies are idiots, but pretending risky stuff doesn't get done does a great disservice to those who actually do it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:affirmative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a creative way to answer the question! In all seriousness, one of the advantages to a lack of creativity seems to be accessibility. You could flourish your language with amphigory, onomatopoeia, poetry, oxford commas and other such literary devices yet does it add any value? Maybe it does, but not to someone who is quickly glancing at the replies. Some of the best examples of these 'creative' replies start out normal and then go more and more crazy. Such as this reply: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags (top reply). Slowly the reply drivels on into madness. The text makes less and less sense. I can hear Molag Bal calling... Ack, I almost got sucked into the madness myself. Good think I stopped being creative before that happened. So remember kids, just say no to creativity.

    5. Re: affirmative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News! People unable to clearly communicate their ideas are having trouble finding funding, story at 11. Back to you Jim.

    6. Re:affirmative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a creativity deficit in the FP.

  2. Well of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We're well past the innovation of the late 20th century, and we're on our way to the navel-gazing imploding Roman Empire stage of our Western civilization.

    More bureaucracy, more government, more universities, more requirements for simple jobs, more and more employees "required" for simple jobs, endless regulations and committees and civil servants and laws and rules and regulations...

    If the Apollo program were announced today, in 9 years we'd still be arguing over the color of the rocket by PhDs in colorometry.

    1. Re:Well of course by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If the Apollo program were announced today, in 9 years we'd still be arguing over the color of the rocket by PhDs in colorometry.

      The Apollo program was successful because it had a clear goal (put a man on the moon, and return him safely to earth) and a hard deadline (before the decade is out). Modern scientists and engineers can do the same when given the same framework. The DARPA Grand Challenge and the Ansari X Prize are two examples where clear goals and hard deadlines in a competitive environment lead to rapid advances. Instead of doling out grants to people that write boring unambitious proposals, we should be setting bold and ambitious goals, and redirect the money to reward actual accomplishments. Pulling a string works a lot better than pushing it.

    2. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 2

      You left out the biggest factor: the end of the meritocracy.

      We are fast moving to a system where the person in charge, be it at a company or in government is no longer the most capable, but the one born in third base. Have a look at GW Bush, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Koch brothers, Donald Trump, etc.

      The repeal of the inheritance tax will only amplify this effect.

    3. Re:Well of course by jythie · · Score: 2

      It was also, by comparison, a fairly simple project. Innovation tends to come in bursts, something new and critical comes into scope (steam, transistors, atomic physics) and then society takes time figuring out all the new ways that discovery can be used. Over time though the lower fruit gets plucked and we are left with more and more difficult tasks with more and more incremental rewards. That is kinda the phase we are in right now, research is focusing on increasingly more difficult problems and discoveries are producing increasingly incremental improvements. Stuff that is risky, cheap, and has big payoffs has already been done for the most part.

    4. Re:Well of course by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      The Apollo program was successful because it had a clear goal. . . and a hard deadline

      And strategic significance (and potential dual-use technology) at a time when we were competing with another nuclear-armed superpower for global domination.

    5. Re:Well of course by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      If the Apollo program were announced today, in 9 years we'd still be arguing over the color of the rocket by PhDs in colorometry.

      The Apollo program was successful because it had a clear goal (put a man on the moon, and return him safely to earth) and a hard deadline (before the decade is out).

      You left out two other key factors... It was founded on a body of engineering, research, and development that was already in progress at the time President Kennedy announced it. And President Kennedy died in Dallas, allowing it to be pushed as his monument and temporarily stilling the debate over the stunning cost of the program.
       

      Modern scientists and engineers can do the same when given the same framework. The DARPA Grand Challenge and the Ansari X Prize are two examples where clear goals and hard deadlines in a competitive environment lead to rapid advances.

      It's no clear that either program lead to useful advances. I'm less knowledgeable about the DARPA Grand Challenge, but the X-Prize lead to an evolutionary dead end that's still grounded. Such prizes often do, as they tend to select for designs optimized to win the prize rather than for technology that's amenable to scaling or to wider introduction and use.
       

      Instead of doling out grants to people that write boring unambitious proposals, we should be setting bold and ambitious goals, and redirect the money to reward actual accomplishments. Pulling a string works a lot better than pushing it.

      Pulling a string is easy, because you know where to pull... that's not even remotely true of research.

    6. Re:Well of course by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Fast moving to such a system where birth counts more than ability? That system has been in place throughout recorded history, and we're actually chipping away at it in modern times.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      and we're actually chipping away at it in modern times.

      We were chipping away at it, but not lately. Social mobility which used to be inordinately high in the USA has been declining since Reagan, and by all measures the decline is accelerating.

    8. Re:Well of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Often it is those who claim to have lost this mobility that also buy into forcing it on everyone else.

    9. Re:Well of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could have added a few Democrats to that list. John Kerry, for instance married his wealth and the now departed Edward Kennedy's wealth was to a great extent made manipulating the stock market in ways the contributed to the great crash of 1929.

    10. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 2

      but the X-Prize lead to an evolutionary dead end that's still grounded.

      SpaceShipTwo has been test flying since October, 2010.

    11. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      Stuff that is risky, cheap, and has big payoffs has already been done for the most part.

      The past twenty years of the internet are a huge counterexample. Even in the relatively staid world of particle accelerators, we are finding substantial room for improvement.

    12. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      We are fast moving to a system where the person in charge, be it at a company or in government is no longer the most capable, but the one born in third base. Have a look at GW Bush, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Koch brothers, Donald Trump, etc.

      Romney, McCain, the Koch brothers, and Trump don't belong on that list. Three of those listed have successfully run businesses in the billions of dollars range. Meanwhile, McCain went from being a cripple in a nasty prison to high political office. That demonstrates a lot of social mobility.

      Sure, if you exclude actual demonstrations of doing things of merit, then of course, you won't have a meritocracy.

      And notice how all of your targets are all whipping boys for a particular political party? Where's some high profile Democrats like for example, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama? They're shiny examples of the end of meritocracy too. Kerry and Obama have been groomed for higher office, just like George W. Bush. And Clinton got where she was only because she was married to Bill Clinton.

    13. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the question is "have they done sginificantly better than if they had simply invested their parents wealth in the stock market" and the answer is no. So "running successful businesses" when all they can do is match the stockmarket is a red herring.

      McCain was the son of an Admiral and last in his class. He would never have been a senator without those paternal qualifications.

      Hillary is there because of her husband and Kerry is well known to have been born in the right place, just like the Kennedys. No one else is pretending otherwise. Yet republicans born in 3rd base always act like they earned it and make derogatory comments about people who are trying to work their way around the bases (e.g. the 43% comment from Mitt). That is why my list is biased towards one party.

      Obama is the furthest you can be from being on 3rd base. This is such an indisputable fact that you lost all credibility there.

    14. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the question is "have they done sginificantly better than if they had simply invested their parents wealth in the stock market" and the answer is no.

      No. That's not "the" question, not least because no one, including you, has yet to ask it. And the answer, for the people in question, is "Yes" they are doing significantly better than if their parents' wealth was just invested on the stock market.

      Obama is the furthest you can be from being on 3rd base.

      And yet, he got where he is through the color of his skin and not by his merits. For example, in addition to various political offices, we have plush book deals and academic positions just handed to him.

      See where I'm going with this? Having the right parents is not the only way to end a meritocracy. Anything that allows someone to advance without regard to their merits also counts.

      That is why my list is biased towards one party.

      In other words, you're just grinding an ideological ax and only accusing the opposition of a much more universal ill. You exhibit the very same hypocrisy that you accuse these "Republicans" of.

      Further, if hypocrisy is more important to you than wealth inequality, then why should wealth inequality be important to me. Shouldn't you at least act like these things are important to you?

    15. Re:Well of course by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Things get better and worse. Overall, I think the tendency is still to increase social mobility. The US may have gotten stuck in oligarchy mode, but the US is not the entirety of Western civilization, and will decline if it is an oligarchy.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      That's not "the" question, not least because no one, including you, has yet to ask it.

      The world exists outside your limited universe. The question has been asked and answered, and no, they have not outperformed the stock indices, which is why I brought it up.

      And yet, he got where he is through the color of his skin and not by his merits.

      Dude, he got where he is in spite of the color of his skin. I mean, in spite of racists like you who are so disconnected with the world that they think a black person would have an advantage in todays societyy simply because a few token morsels thrown their way in the name of affirmative action.

      See where I'm going with this?

      I do, and it doesn't bode well for you dude, with your racist comments about Obama.

    17. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      The question has been asked and answered, and no, they have not outperformed the stock indices, which is why I brought it up.

      Not in terms of the thread. I think it's dishonest to pretend that it's the most important question when no one has even asked it, including you.

      And it's worth noting that not even the stocks that comprise the stock indices outperform the stock indices which are significantly inflated by how they rate and derate the components of the indices (there's a bump in price when a stock gets put in a popular index and a corresponding drop when it is removed - both happen in a way that inflates the index since the actions of adding or removing happen before the stock market reacts to it and thus gets added to the index valuation).

      Nor do I buy your assertion that the above people didn't outperform the stock indices.

      Dude, he got where he is in spite of the color of his skin.

      The world exists outside of your limited universe. Remember that?

      simply because a few token morsels thrown their way in the name of affirmative action.

      Let's look at these few, token morsels: his first job as leader of a non profit based on nothing more than having a college degree and a car, getting several book contracts (the first which appears to be just on the basis of him getting elected as editor of the Harvard Law Review), 12 year lightweight gig at the University of Chicago law school, parlaying that community organizer beginning into a considerable bit of wealth (over $7 million last time he reported it), those numerous political positions, and other bits of political grooming (such as being appointed to run relatively high profile projects like Project Vote (Illinois branch) and board of directors for two major non profits in Chicago.

      A huge warning sign for me is the near absence of what normally would be considered a real job - working for or managing in a for profit business like most people do. Romney, the Koch brothers, and Trump in particular have all done that. Even G. W. Bush has spent time working in a business. Meanwhile McCain was career military, serving 17 years in the military on top of 6 years as a POW in a nasty Vietnamese prison. I consider these jobs to give life experiences that you just aren't going to get from Obama's fluff of a career.

    18. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Nor do I buy your assertion that the above people didn't outperform the stock indices.

      Of course you won't, a republican choosing ideology over facts, what else is news?

      his first job as leader of a non profit based on nothing more than having a college degree and a car,

      Which is false. He got the job for the same reason he won the coveted Harvard Law Review editorship: he was damn bright one you could tell. The first time I read a speech from him in the early 2000s I knew he would one day be president, because you see, some of us can recognize talent while others like you cannot see past the color of a man's skin.

      And sorry, but no, being promoted to VicePresident of dad's company like the Koch Jrs. is not an actual job accomplishment (or promoted to Captain in dad's navy for that matter). You are just reiterating the "born in third base, claim to have worked your way up there" point I was making. Thank you.

    19. Re:Well of course by JimNoord · · Score: 0

      And it was being run by "the greatest generation", and it was cover foremonstrating heavy launch vehicles to the world. Good indication that this article is true is the Orion capsule looking so much like a cement mixer sans Apollo. Wow absolutely no imagination there. Build a ginormous rocket and bolt a cement mixer on top. So much for high altitude low energy orbital flights or even lofting components into orbit and assemblinv space craft there. Very sad......spending on one year of funding illegals could have kept our space program intact.

    20. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      Of course you won't, a republican choosing ideology over facts, what else is news?

      I am not republican.

      And I see you're propagating your own flavor of myths. Someone has a moderately wealthy or positioned dad, then nothing they do can possibly be due to their own merits.

      Which is false. He got the job for the same reason he won the coveted Harvard Law Review editorship: he was damn bright one you could tell. The first time I read a speech from him in the early 2000s I knew he would one day be president, because you see, some of us can recognize talent while others like you cannot see past the color of a man's skin.

      There are lots of bright people out there. But how many people get book deals just because they get a fancy college achievement? Or opportunity after opportunity thrown at their feet? And would people actually have voted for him in 2008, if he was just another white guy? That's why I believe the color of his skin got him where he is now.

    21. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      As to whether these particular people did better than your inflated measure of investment, let's have a look. I don't know about Trump, he seems to have bounced around a lot, including an episode of bankruptcy, but is worth $3 billion now. Romney doesn't appear to have inherited any money from his parents, yet he's still worth somewhere around $200 million. The Koch brothers seem to have done quite well, turning a fortune into a much larger fortune.

      Also, it's worth noting here that Trump and the Koch brothers don't have very liquid wealth. They can't just turn around, sell everything they have for near market price instantaneously, and then buy NASDAQ index funds.

      They also spend money. Even if they were tied perfectly to a relevant stock index, they would still have lower performance just because they do more with their money than invest it. Fancy homes, yachts, charity donations, whatever. For example, the Koch brothers only were mentioned here because of their spending on various sorts of pie-in-the-sky conservative and libertarian-flavored advocacy. That's not making them bank.

      Despite your implications to the contrary, I don't buy that these people are dumb and can't imagine getting out of their little niches into something highly public like stock index funds. It's not like they wouldn't have heard about it.

    22. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Romney doesn't appear to have inherited any money from his parents,

      Say what? his father was a multimillionaire.

    23. Re:Well of course by khallow · · Score: 1

      What. Legally, he has inherited money, but appears not have kept it. Romney claims to have received money from his father and then donated it to charity which would count at not inheriting it in my book (or rather the appearance of not inheriting it).

    24. Re:Well of course by Alomex · · Score: 1

      And would people actually have voted for him in 2008, if he was just another white guy?

      This is a statement that actually can be statistically tested. We can compare whether he got more or less votes than a fellow white democrat in every state. People have looked into this and Obama mostly less (in the South, obviously) or the same votes as the white democrat. So yes, people would have voted for him if he had been another white guy, and won by an even larger margin had he been white.

      That's why I believe the color of his skin got him where he is now.

      Which as I said, makes you a racist. And no, I don't say that lightly, but you've earned it. If you are a good person you will re-evaluate your unwarranted prejudice against the manner he got elected. If you are on the other hand a closeted bigot pretending not to be one you'll simply dig your heels further.

  3. Support our scientists ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because the school systems are grinding the future brilliant, passionate creative scientists into drones.

    1. Re:Support our scientists ! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      because the school systems are grinding the future brilliant, passionate creative scientists into drones.

      I have two kids in public school, and I have seen no evidence at all that the schools discourage creativity. In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year. They learned to do graphical programming in Scratch. The school had several teams that competed in robotic competitions. In high school, they have the full range of science classes, and students are encouraged to do original research or development as an independent study project with a mentor recruited from a research center or tech corporation. Last year, several students from my daughter's school competed in the Intel Science Talent Search. The public schools seem to be doing a much better job than they did when I was a kid.

    2. Re:Support our scientists ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You must get paid very well and live in a nice neighborhood. Everyone I know who has kids (most of them newly with kids in elementary school, I'm in my 30's), has told me horror stories that lead me to believe the schools are 1000-times worse than when we went. One of the worst attrocities is this "Social Math" bullshit they are teaching...its utterly retarded and makes no sense. But lucky you! you're one of the 1% apparently!

    3. Re:Support our scientists ! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year. They learned to do graphical programming in Scratch. The school had several teams that competed in robotic competitions.

      FYI that's not a normal public school.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Support our scientists ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound poor.

    5. Re:Support our scientists ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tragedy here is that apparently you've reproduced. Unless you mean you're the babysitter of two kids that go to school?

      You're one of the biggest idiots on here, and to think that you've reproduced is harrowing.

    6. Re:Support our scientists ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and salty

    7. Re:Support our scientists ! by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year. They learned to do graphical programming in Scratch. The school had several teams that competed in robotic competitions.

      FYI that's not a normal public school.

      The problem with public education in the US is that it tends to be locally funded, so you get whatever your neighbors are willing to pay for. If you're into the "why should I have to pay money so that some poor kid in the local city can learn how to read" school of thought, you probably consider that a good thing. Likewise, if you live in the one progressive town in some red state then you probably appreciate not having to stock your science classroom with Bibles.

      On the whole, though, I think it hurts us.

    8. Re:Support our scientists ! by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

      In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year. They learned to do graphical programming in Scratch. The school had several teams that competed in robotic competitions.

      FYI that's not a normal public school.

      The problem with public education in the US is that it tends to be locally funded, so you get whatever your neighbors are willing to pay for.

      Capable of paying for. That is a more accurate statement.

    9. Re:Support our scientists ! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year.

      I don't have kids, but when I was a kid, they did things like having a science fair every year. It wasn't actually helpful for fostering creativity, though, as far as I can remember. It was bizarre in that they were both very restrictive-- in that they'd shoot down any idea that they didn't think would work out well-- but they also wouldn't provide guidance. They'd just say, "Make a science fair project." I don't know how the other kids came up with their projects, but I vaguely remember that I just ping-pong-ed between my parents and my science teacher. My parents would suggest something, and I'd go suggest that project to my science teacher. The science teacher would reject it, and I'd go relay the rejection to my parents.

      I could see it being helpful if someone actually helped the kids find things that they were interested in, and let them pursue that interesting thought even if it wouldn't work. As it was, though, for me it was just another shitty experience of school being completely inane and discouraging.

      What I'm getting at here is, it's not just a matter of doing these things and making these programs, but of executing these programs in a way that they're accessible and rewarding for students. Your child's school may do this, but I would guess that most don't, even if they have these kinds of programs at all.

    10. Re:Support our scientists ! by werepants · · Score: 1

      The problem with public education in the US is that it tends to be locally funded, so you get whatever your neighbors are willing to pay for.

      Capable of paying for. That is a more accurate statement.

      Not where I'm from. This area is drowning in Acuras and BMWs, but any bill attempting to increase school funding gets shut down hard, year after year. The schools here could be very well funded, but there isn't the will.

  4. If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No." by knapper_tech · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Non-declarative headlines indicative of lack of factual basis to report objectively known or at least well defensible information. I would say that 352ml of creativity is enough. People haven't considered that as the creativity has moved North, it has contracted, but the methane gas release in the arctic might unleash the creativity stored in our Nation's permafrost. In other words, I'm pointing out that the argument can be made arbitrarily either way as far as science cares.

    I recall a significant amount of people arguing for more verifiable studies, tighter acceptance criteria, and more peer-review. That says anything but "let's research more crazy things." While it's true that some of the most valuable information comes from data points outside the currently sampled range, we have a great capability to model proposed mechanisms these days. How about generating some data using more modelling and simulation to explore proposed mechanisms before jumping into lab research to verify those models? There are plenty of things that can always be done besides arguing that the funding environment is simply too hostile to grants that are off the beaten path; when has someone not argued that this was the case?

    --
    "There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them." ~ Louis Armstrong
  5. Re:If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The scientists who want to jump on the creative-train can change their science hats to engineering hats and apply and combine the peer-reviewed, verified and repeatable results into products that change the world. Most of the earth shatteringly creative experiments has traditionally consisted of fortunate lab accidents, or random fault-injections into the laboratory processes anyway.

  6. evolution by bob_jenkins · · Score: 1

    It's surprising how far you can get from your starting point by doing only incremental changes.

    1. Re:evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It might, however, take millions of years...

    2. Re:evolution by udippel · · Score: 1

      Dear-o-dear-o-dear ...
      Billions. Billions.
      Not millions, no, not millions. And 4000-6000 years are right out of question.

  7. Tenure-hunting discourages risk by Jack+Malmostoso · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have been working in research (chemistry) for 10 years, half in academia and half in industry. In my time in academia, it was all about putting together enough results to scrape a paper together, nevermind whether the "promising results" were benchmarked against shitty "state-of-the-art".

    In my current industry job, I have been asked to prepare a 5-year plan with high ambitions, and I am free to explore any path to the final goal without (reasonably at least) restrictions.

    Unfortunately until non-tenured researchers will need to publish as much as possible without actually delivering important results, this will not change.

    In my opinion the peer-review system is not perfect, but it's the best thing we have. I have found many reviewers whose comments have been genuinely beneficial to making my papers stronger. Others barely read the manuscript and rejected it because it encroached on their turf, or didn't cite them enough.

    In my opinion the peer-review should be changed to a double-blind system: the reviewer should not see name and affiliation of the authors, and judge the work as it would grade an undergrad paper (i.e. harshly). Like this I believe the signal-to-noise ratio in journals would increase, and only good papers would get published. At that point, I'd be willing to accept impact factor as a measure of worthiness of a publication. Until then, it's just friends judging friends, with nobody wanting to piss off anybody else. Minor revisions, congratulations, you're published.

    1. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      In my opinion the peer-review should be changed to a double-blind system:

      I think peer review should be scrapped entirely; it used to serve a purpose when there was limited space to publish stuff. These days, online citation statistics, comments, and ratings are a much better system.

    2. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by m00sh · · Score: 1

      In my opinion the peer-review should be changed to a double-blind system: the reviewer should not see name and affiliation of the authors, and judge the work as it would grade an undergrad paper (i.e. harshly). Like this I believe the signal-to-noise ratio in journals would increase, and only good papers would get published. At that point, I'd be willing to accept impact factor as a measure of worthiness of a publication. Until then, it's just friends judging friends, with nobody wanting to piss off anybody else. Minor revisions, congratulations, you're published.

      There are many many double blind review systems.

      The world of research on a specific topic is very small. If you write a paper, you can probably guess who will review it. Also, the reviewer can also guess who wrote it.

      If that doesn't happen, then it goes to the guy who drew the short straw and you get a pointless review criticizing pointless things from a person who knows nothing about the field but is in the review committee for whatever reasons.

    3. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by jmv · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In my opinion the peer-review should be changed to a double-blind system: the reviewer should not see name and affiliation of the authors, and judge the work as it would grade an undergrad paper (i.e. harshly). Like this I believe the signal-to-noise ratio in journals would increase, and only good papers would get published.

      Please no! The problem with this approach (and it's already happening) is that what will get published is boring papers that bring tiny improvements over the state of the art. They'll get accepted because the reviewers will find nothing wrong with the paper, not because there's much good in there. On the other hand, the really new and interesting stuff will inevitably be less rigorous and probably more controversial, so it's going to be rejected.

      Personally, I'd rather have 5% great papers among 95% of crap, than 100% papers that are neither great, nor crap, but just uninteresting. Reviews need to move towards positive rating (how many thing are interesting), away from negative ratings (how many issues you find in the paper). But it's not happening any time soon and it's one of the reasons I've mostly stopped reviewing (too often overruled by the associate editor to be worth my time).

    4. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by Pausanias · · Score: 1

      Peer review is fine. The problem is that there isn't enough reviewer guidance, nor are there enough pots for money for "high risk, high reward" situations. Government agencies are too afraid of "wasting" their money. These things can easily be remedied by having changes at the administrative level such that money is set aside for risky projects. Peer review can then go on the same way with revised criteria.

      Also remember, for every story like the miracle cancer medicine that couldn't get funded for years but then became a runaway success, there are say 10-100 rejected projects that wouldn't have gone anywhere. What if there isn't any objective way to tell apart that 1-10% from the failures? Should we fund all of them? I don't think so as there is still much to be gained from "incremental" science.

    5. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by martin-boundary · · Score: 2
      That's very wrong. Online comments have no scientific merit whatsoever, ratings systems are abitrary and error prone (who computes the ratings? is it an algorithm, or some full time secretarial type? Does he/she even have a degree?), and citation statistics are gameable, in similar ways that Google rankings are gameable in fact.

      Proper scientific reviews by qualified scientists with higher degrees are non negotiable, if we want science to remain a high quality human endeavour.

    6. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by darthsteve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but the whole system is geared to "publish or perish". Already thousands of scientists leave the field every year because they haven't produced sufficient publication churn to carry on working. Pubmed is a cesspit of junk, growing by tens of thousands of publications a day. In this hyper-competitive numbers game you have got to publish therefore you can't afford to do anything (anything at all) that could risk not being able to, which means safe, guaranteed data generation. Scientific discovery is secondary. Until there's a change from the all consuming obsession with numbers of publications being the single most important thing for a scientists career then things will remain just as they are, if not worsen.

    7. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      The reviewer will still know who the authors are by the work described. Most of the work will already have been presented at conferences and the peer may well have reviewed the original grant proposal as well. Hiding who the authors are is impracticable if the reviewer is indeed a peer.

    8. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by khallow · · Score: 1

      Online comments have no scientific merit whatsoever, ratings systems are abitrary and error prone (who computes the ratings? is it an algorithm, or some full time secretarial type? Does he/she even have a degree?), and citation statistics are gameable, in similar ways that Google rankings are gameable in fact.

      The problem is that peer review has these same flaws. It has no more scientific merit than online comments; it is just as error prone and arbitrary as rating systems; and it's gameable just like citation statistics.

    9. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      ratings systems are abitrary and error prone (who computes the ratings? is it an algorithm, or some full time secretarial type? Does he/she even have a degree?)

      Well, the whole point of ratings systems is that you can have as many of them as you want, each with their own method of operation, and people can choose which ratings they follow.

      I mean, who regulates who is allowed to write movie reviews? People tend to try to find the review sources that they believe most reflect what they're looking for, and use them.

      I think that the ability to replicate results is far more important than peer review in science, and that tends to be very difficult to do even if you are a peer.

    10. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      Proper scientific reviews by qualified scientists with higher degrees are non negotiable, if we want science to remain a high quality human endeavour.

      That train left the station long ago. Being a "qualified scientist with a higher degree" is not a prerequisite for being a peer reviewer. Peer reviews are frequently (probably usually) carried out by students without higher degrees. Even many people with higher degrees are not "qualified scientists". Citation statistics are frequently gamed (RTFA), and some people manage to arrange to review their own submissions. And science isn't a "high quality human endeavor": like most human endeavors, most people are poor at it, with a few really good people who actually produce good stuff.

      Finally, even if peer review were carried out by highly qualified people, it never was intended to guarantee correctness or quality; the point of peer review is to pick interesting papers, not good or correct papers. Obviously incorrect papers are not interesting, which is why they get weeded out as a side effect. But many interesting papers turn out to be wrong. Some of the most reputable journals keep publishing scientific fraud because fraudulent papers often appear to be some of the most interesting ones (until people discover the fraud).

      In addition to working better, dropping peer review would have the advantage that even naive people like you get disabused of their misconceptions about science and scientific publishing. In different words: get a f*cking clue.

    11. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that peer review has these same flaws. It has no more scientific merit than online comments; it is just as error prone and arbitrary as rating systems; and it's gameable just like citation statistics.

      The difference between "online review" and "peer review" is mostly in the reviewers and the editors. Peer reviewers have at least some modicum of training and expertise in the field. Even if they have an agenda, that agenda is more refined than just trolling or shitposting. A decent editor know the field and the personalities in it. A decent editor reads the reviewers' comments and can easily distinguish between reasonable and petty comments.

      Of course, with the proliferation of journals, good editors are harder to find. With the proliferation of publications, good reviewers have less time. But ideally, you identify the good journals by knowing their editors. The editors identify good reviewers. The reviewers identify good science. I can't speak for all, but my experiences with better journals (not Science, but better specialty journals) are an order of magnitude more pleasant, more professional, and more helpful than my experiences with the lower end rags.

    12. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Peer review is supposed to suggest improvements to papers, and to serve as a filter to pass papers that might be interesting and don't have obvious big flaws. There is limited space to publish lots of stuff still, and there is certainly limited time to go through all sorts of papers where the abstract doesn't match the techniques or conclusion, there's glaring errors, that sort of thing.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      Peer review is supposed to suggest improvements to papers, and to serve as a filter to pass papers that might be interesting and don't have obvious big flaws.

      Your point being what?

      There is limited space to publish lots of stuff still, and there is certainly limited time to go through all sorts of papers where the abstract doesn't match the techniques or conclusion, there's glaring errors, that sort of thing.

      Again, your point being what?

    14. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      The difference between "online review" and "peer review" is mostly in the reviewers and the editors. Peer reviewers have at least some modicum of training and expertise in the field.

      With peer review, you have no idea whether the reviewer has any qualifications at all; neither does the editor for that matter. With online review, you can read those reviews by people you know and trust, you know their qualifications, and you know whether they are the right people to evaluate a paper; it's a much better system.

    15. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      My point being that peer review serves a useful purpose.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      No, you merely said that it is supposed to serve a useful purpose. In reality, it largely fails to serve that purpose anymore, while other mechanisms work a lot better these days.

    17. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Peer reviews are frequently (probably usually) carried out by students without higher degrees. Even many people with higher degrees are not "qualified scientists".

      Are you for real? I stopped reading after those two sentences. You clearly have never seen the inside of a scientific journal review system.

    18. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      The problem is that peer review has these same flaws. It has no more scientific merit than online comments; it is just as error prone and arbitrary as rating systems; and it's gameable just like citation statistics.

      While all systems have flaws, the flaws with peer review are not the same as (and I would argue, an order of magnitude smaller than) the flaws with online comments. In particular, to claim that peer review by scientists has no scientific merit is ridiculous. The mere fact that the reviews are conducted by qualified individuals in the field raises their merit substantially versus online comments, which we've seen extensively in the last few years with the "scientific" debates conducted in the blogosphere.

    19. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by silfen · · Score: 1

      Are you for real? I stopped reading after those two sentences. You clearly have never seen the inside of a scientific journal review system.

      Apparently you don't. Journals generally have a large database of potential reviewers that editors pick from, many of which the editor doesn't know personally. For most of them, the editor has to rely on their self-assessment of competency. A large fraction of the database is incorrect. Even if the paper makes it to a competent scientist with a Ph.D., he will often just pass the paper on to a student. That's the reality of most scientific peer review today.

    20. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by drcesteffen · · Score: 1

      I think the correct question is "Is prior-to-publishing peer review necessary?". Something like arxiv could publish everything and then scientists and/or engineers could have logins with their real names and qualifications under which they could read and review the papers after they are published. A person could search for papers using various filters. (ie. unreviewed, reviewed by individual, reviewed by 10 people with these credentials, reviewed and notation of prior publishment or related articles, notation of articles contradicting the results, retracted etc . . .) Then a person could quantify the quality and quantity of the review and better guage the quality of the work. Also, if a researcher was giving false reviews to "game" the system, all of their reviews could be deleted from the system in short order. If someone was rediscovering or redoing the work of lesser known people who published first, then the lesser know person could note the prior publishment in their work. Also, one could get a timeline tree of the development of work in the area. So everyone gets published in a peer reviewed journal. There would be no peer-review-induced delay in publication. The level of peer review quantity and quality is quantifiable. Gaming the system could be detected and removed. Work would no longer be presented as standalone as future papers contradicting the work could be linked to it. Tenure committees would have a more refined tool than mere quantity as a person could note who was reading their work to indicate its importance.

    21. Re:Tenure-hunting discourages risk by werepants · · Score: 1

      I wonder - many of the fundamental technological developments of the 20th century can be attributed to Bell Labs, which was an industrial organization with strict government oversight and an ongoing mission to demonstrate a public benefit to justify Bell's monopoly status. I've been wondering recently if maybe that model is the ideal one for rapid progress... there was much more freedom and less of a focus on quantity of publishing compared to academia, no need for years-long games with grants, and extensive engineering resources available in a wide variety of disciplines to develop any promising idea. I'd be curious if you would welcome more labs on that model...

  8. Not just a biomedical, but a general problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In most scientific fields. Sluggish conventional incremental research is heavily preferred over highly creative and risky research. Which is fine if you already know what you're looking for or if you want to make progress in an already established field. But an unwise course of action if you wish to find unpredictable and previously unknown phenomena.

    Now the best way to resolve this is to increase basic research funding to college labs and lone researchers who go through a vetting process. And in addition to this a certain percentage of the funding should be earmarked for experimental research that doesn't have any immediate payoff. Because that's what basic research is all about and the fount from which many of the breakthroughs in science and technology have come.

    1. Re:Not just a biomedical, but a general problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now the best way to resolve this is to increase basic research funding to college labs and lone researchers who go through a vetting process.

      The problem with trying to do research in a University setting is that there is a strong tendency to rely on graduate students to do the lab work - rather than career scientists. This means that a typical tenured science professor graduates another new science PhD every couple years. So the tenured professor could easily graduate a dozen or so PhDs over their career before retiring to create one single solitary job opening for those dozen PhDs.

      And that creates a problem in funding lone researchers. The number of people with science PhDs would would love to be paid to go off on their own and research a big question is orders of magnitude greater than the available funding. There's this huge pool of people who are all capable of major creative breakthroughs in science - but no way to know who is more or less likely to actually succeed if you fund them.

      And in addition to this a certain percentage of the funding should be earmarked for experimental research that doesn't have any immediate payoff.

      Of course, all other things being equal more funding is better. But when it comes to cutting edge outside-the-box scientific research I'd be in favor of keeping the government out of it almost entirely - don't make any attempt to judge the research itself.

      Instead, what I would propose is part-time arrangement. Pay a scientist a decent salary, say, $75K/year, to do six months of work that requires specialized skill and creativity but is relatively well defined - giving lectures in science, DNA sequencing more diverse organisms, etc. Then for the other six months let the scientists work on whatever they want - without any restriction aside from subject/patient ethics. If the tax payers absolutely insisted, the scientists could be required to keep a basic accounting of their time to show that they were, in fact, doing something scientific with their time (wrote code for molecular dynamics simulation in morning, researched replica exchange algorithms in afternoon, etc.).

      But the key point would be to not impose bureaucratic restrictions on the areas of science to be explored.

    2. Re:Not just a biomedical, but a general problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      In some fields, letting scientists go half-time with whatever scientific thing they wanted would work, more or less. In others, it's necessary to work in teams with a whole lot of capital costs.

      Assume somebody wants to do some neat experiments in particle physics, with a possibility of major breakthroughs but likely confirming what we already know. That person is likely to need access to the LHC, which is more than the person's going to be able to afford on $75K/year. (BTW, that is not an impressive salary for somebody with a Ph.D. in a technical field.) Biological experiments are going to require quite a few specimens, and some of them are fairly expensive.

      This plan would impose considerable restrictions on the areas of science to be explored.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Not just a biomedical, but a general problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This plan would impose considerable restrictions on the areas of science to be explored.

      Grants and other forms of heavy-handed administrative oversight work well for obvious incremental progress with high capital costs. For example, there was a point in the early 90s (arguably even earlier) where it became clear that it would be possible to sequence the entire human genome - that it was just a matter of funding, capital costs, etc.

      The idea isn't to completely do away with grants, etc. - instead to simply to remove restrictions on inexpensive out-of-the-box creative research. I just don't see any way that very expensive out-of-the-box research is going to get funded. That's basically a lost cause. But there's a lot of obscure little avenues that could be explored inexpensively if scientists were given more freedom with certain block of their time.

  9. 10,000 Leagues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is 10,000 Leagues Under the Sea considered science?

    Why? Why not?

    It had some damn good stuff that eventually was proven possible.

    1. Re:10,000 Leagues by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, for starters, 10,000 leagues is a quite a bit over the circumference of the earth, so being so far under the sea is just simply impossible. If this Verne character is serious about his scientific ambitions, he shouldn't be three to four orders off with his approximations.

    2. Re:10,000 Leagues by meglon · · Score: 1
      First, it's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.... second, traveling 20,000 leagues submerged is quite possible for current US subs. In 1960, the USS Triton completed a circumnavigation of the globe, entirely submerged... roughly 10,500 leagues (given the path they took).

      If, on the other hand, you're assuming Verne was talking about depth, then i assume your day job is (was) that of Khan Noonien Singh's space combat tactical adviser (circa 1982).

      ....and for the obligatory copy/paste/link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

      "The title refers to the distance traveled while under the sea and not to a depth, as 20,000 leagues is over six times the diameter of Earth.[1] The greatest depth mentioned in the book is four leagues. (The book uses metric leagues, which are four kilometres each.[2]) A literal translation of the French title would end in the plural "seas", thus implying the "seven seas" through which the characters of the novel travel; however, the early English translations of the title used "sea", meaning the ocean in general."

      Clearly at around 52,000 feet, Verne was off a bit (the Mariana Trench wouldn't even be sounded for another 5 years from his books first publishing).... then again, he was kinda spot on about electricity.

      --
      Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
    3. Re:10,000 Leagues by Rande · · Score: 1

      I thought it meant distance traveled whilst submerged, not depth. A nuclear submarine could (and do?) circumnavigate the world without surfacing.

    4. Re:10,000 Leagues by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      Is 10,000 Leagues Under the Sea considered science?

      I don't know; I've never heard of it. By any chance are you referring to Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea? If so, most definitely, because the book accurately predicted a number of features that later became standard on submarines.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    5. Re:10,000 Leagues by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      He was right about some of the things the electricity could do. He never said where the electricity came from.

      In other words, he assumed some unobtainium with certain properties and wrote a story about what could happen with it. That's not science, that's science fiction.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:10,000 Leagues by meglon · · Score: 1

      Which is odd because the book was supposed to be a science book. Oh wait....

      --
      Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  10. Science vs Creativity by BringsApples · · Score: 0

    According to science, there is no creator. So no, there is no creativity. Since there is no creativity, there can be no lack of creativity.

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:Science vs Creativity by Mr+44 · · Score: 1

      OK, Jaden.

    2. Re:Science vs Creativity by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Well, I never said that I agree with science's point of view. Besides, we all create. Even if it's just the creator that we create.

      Seriously though, the way things are today, there are a lot of folks out there that simply play the system in order to get funded. This shows how degraded the system is. People out there trying to discover something, just for the sake of getting funded, or fame, or whatever else. Of course it seems that in the past, most of the biggest steps taken to achieve our current understanding of the universe came from those who were simply observing the universe, and probably didn't give a damn about having their curiosity funded.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    3. Re:Science vs Creativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that "According to science, there is no creator". Science is not an entity with thought or a point of view. It's a process. And it is a process that has never once been used to definitively prove whether there is a creator or not. Also, creativity is mutually exclusive from a creator. Creativity exists even in a universe that starts from the big bang sans God/gods.

      Mr 44 wasn't trying to imply that you agree with science, he was making fun of your ridiculous view of what science is.

    4. Re:Science vs Creativity by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      According to science, there is no creator. So no, there is no creativity. Since there is no creativity, there can be no lack of creativity.

      No. "The creator" if any is supernatural. Science researchs nature. The supernatural if any is not researchable at present. As such "the creator" is irrelevant to science, irrelevant NOT denied.

      Please explain how YOU would propose to scientifically test "the creator".

    5. Re:Science vs Creativity by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The supernatural will never be researchable. If we can study werewolves and magical spells and divine entities, they're going to be classified as natural.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:Science vs Creativity by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Commonly to today's world, "science" is everything but the belief in God. Nowhere in any science* will you find the concept of God. That was my point. Not very ridiculous.

      It's a good question to ask, "Who created the scientific method?" To me, the scientific method seems embedded in Nature itself and not invented by anyone. I'm not religious, at all. However I do believe in God. To not seems to be as silly as not believing in the scientific method.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    7. Re:Science vs Creativity by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Werewolves are very real. They're a part of the entertainment industry. Have you never seen a werewolf movie? The same is true with those other things that you brought up. They're real, but not in the way that science would care to investigate.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
  11. Lemmings rule.... by justcauseisjustthat · · Score: 1

    When you believe I need to get a grant and I need to publish this or that to make a major breakthrough you are just being a lemming.
    Now take the teenager who had the desire to create a Pancreatic Cancer Test and didn't have all those rule drubbed into him, he just did it.
    Those formally trained in research do splendid formal research, those with desire and no rules make amazing breakthrough.... Maybe :-)

  12. Who bears the risk? by westlake · · Score: 1

    There's a current problem in biomedical research," says American biochemist Robert Lefkowitz, winner of the 2012 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. "The emphasis is on doing things which are not risky."

    Risky to who, exactly?

    I discovered as an adult that I had received radiation "treatments" as a kid and test subject in one of the AEC's more adventurous and ethically questionable clinical experiments.

    For decades now, I have had to pay very close attention to any changes in my thyroid.

    1. Re:Who bears the risk? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Risky to who, exactly?

      Tax payers - their tax dollars would be used to fund research that the established scientific "experts" in the field think is likely to fail.

      You could make a compelling case that concerns over patient privacy relating to DNA sequencing are significantly impeding progress in medical genetics - that privacy concerns are costing lives. But I don't know any scientists that are arguing for taking more risks with the physical health of human research subjects who have no chance of benefiting directly from the research.

    2. Re:Who bears the risk? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      Risky to who, exactly?

      The research bearing fruit. No one is suggesting removing protections from actual subjects. The article is about funders wanting to fund "successful" (that is, hypothesis affirming) and "publishable" (that is, less contraversial) experiments.

      His goal is to somehow shift the funder's incentives so high sucessful completion risk/high reward (either in basic knowledge or specific benefit) stuff gets made.

      And I agree. The shit that gets funded at any real level is often piecemeal and uninteresting. Hell, even "we want money to try a similar study with N>35 so we can test a lot of spin off research of this promising study" get shot down for being too out there.%lt;/rant>

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  13. LSD does not enhance creativity by atari2600a · · Score: 1

    Gov'ment said so. Nuff said.

    1. Re:LSD does not enhance creativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Walter Bishop might disagree.

    2. Re:LSD does not enhance creativity by justcauseisjustthat · · Score: 1

      My sarcasm sensor may be broke.... Or I'm tripping.

  14. Re:If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    I recall a significant amount of people arguing for more verifiable studies, tighter acceptance criteria, and more peer-review. That says anything but "let's research more crazy things."

    I think the point is something like, "Go ahead and research FTL travel, but if you write a paper saying FTL travel is possible, it better be reproducible."

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  15. Ofcourse these is by PC_THE_GREAT · · Score: 1

    Ofcourse there is LACK OF CREATIVITY in traditional sciences.
    :) Computer Science mixed with traditional science is where the creativity lies.

  16. Creativity by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    It seems that quite a few researches are very creative in inventing results to "prove" their hypotheses.

  17. Is there a science deficit in creativity? by Truth_Quark · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... is the more salient question.

    Hollywood has turned against scientists again, and the anti-science hacks of antivax and climate change denial and creationism/intelligent design and alt-med are getting more and more air time.

    Uneducated intuition and magical thinking seem to be the respected characteristics in pop fiction, and well respected heroes like Sagan and David Attenborough have given way to more niche respected heroes like Hawkings, Cox and Tyson.

    1. Re:Is there a science deficit in creativity? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Hollywood has turned against scientists again

      It's been going on for so long that the kids given the lessons about evil scientists grew up, got their MBA or experience in horse judging, then their political contacts got them into positions of responsibility where they could do their bit in making China and India look like places where science can progress more easily that the USA.

    2. Re:Is there a science deficit in creativity? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2

      Hollywood has turned against scientists again

      It irks me that so often science is make out the be the monster maker. I get that a movie called 'Another boring day in a genetic engineering lab where noting unusual happens' isn't going to be a big hit so they need to get their Frankenstein's monster somehow, but still, I don't like it.

      I really hate when there's some smug asshole in the movie who spends the first half of the film whining about playing God and 'toying with things you don't understand' and whatnot, and then gets vindicated when the monster inevitably attacks. I wonder if that influences movie goers' perceptions about science and scientists. The movie Contagion did a very good job at a positive portrayal of scientists, which I won't spoil, but if you haven't seen it you should.

    3. Re:Is there a science deficit in creativity? by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      I really hate when there's some smug asshole in the movie who spends the first half of the film whining about playing God and 'toying with things you don't understand' and whatnot, and then gets vindicated when the monster inevitably attacks

      I forget where I read this, but one writer pointed out that "Jurassic Park" was especially obnoxious in this regard. In the book, Ian Malcolm (the Jeff Goldblum character) keeps trying to explain that they've built a system that is far too complex and has far too many failure points to stay under their control - and of course he's right. In the movie, Malcolm is reduced to moralizing about the arrogance of scientists playing God.

      (Ironically, if Michael Chricton had written the book 15 years later, it probably would have been closer to the movie.)

    4. Re:Is there a science deficit in creativity? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      The same formula is used by Hollywood when someone messes with the occult. The dire, yet vindicated, warning. The monster in the second act. Etc.

      I guess what I'm saying is that Hollywood honestly doesn't know the difference between science and magic. Although computers even more so.

      I'm far more concerned about the effect of "cops bend the rules because they sooo hate the evil killer and need to get him off the streets" shows. Cops actually do get influenced by that. I think there was a study about that, but it may have been not published because it was too groundbreaking....

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  18. Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by udippel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This may sound strange, but it is a lack of trust.
    In the old days, which were not always good, a brilliant scientist/academician/professor would be granted tax payers' monies to pursue her dreams in science, at least as far as basic funding was concerned; that is not including expensive apparatuses.
    But then we, in the academic world, allowed the bean counters to take over. And they started to ask for ROI, at least in the number of patents, marketability, etc. Additionally, short funding terms made it into our world. 2 years, 3 years. Where I work, the latter is already the exemption. Therefore, as written by Lefkowitz, yes, we have to have results before we can ask for funding. Not only because the sponsors want to be on the safe side (of getting a return), but also not to embarrass ourselves by not being able to come up with what was envisaged. In the place were I used to be, the latter would give you a blacklisting.

    Or, the other way round, if the public is not willing to trust us, but wants us to produce off-the-shelf academic results (numbers of publications included; publications that might take away from our genuine research time), that's what the public gets.

    I only wished that the public was cognizant of this interdependence.
     

    1. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may sound strange, but it is a lack of trust.

      I agree that it's lack of trust.

      But perhaps not in the sense that you mean. Certainly there are people who fail to appreciate how hard most scientists work - who imagine that a career in the ivory tower of science is relaxed and comfortable - devoid of the pressure and hardships of normal life. But scientists can't ask people to trust them that their outside-the-box research will succeed - because it's actually most likely to fail. If people were to trust that outside-the-box research always succeeds then they would be trusting a lie.

      Most people understand that science fails - still no universal cure for the cancer or the common cold, so to speak. So what is there to trust, exactly?

      My answer would be that people, particularly rich people, would need to trust that they could be more generous without great harm to themselves - that it wouldn't be the end of the world to pay a bit more in taxes and not buy the wife new jewelry quite as often. Essentially, people would have to trust that they could still be happy with a bit less - that they can afford to pay scientists to discover a better world for future generations.

    2. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Hmm, maybe that's because the taxpayers' money was used to fund bizarre, esoteric research that nobody would use in a million years, and people caught on to that. When you take money, you owe something in return. Too many scientists look down on the less intelligent and don't think they should have to answer to anyone.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's amazing how far removed scientific publishing has become from its original purpose. The original purpose of publishing a paper was to disseminate your results to the world. It was basically an open letter to other scientists (that's why so many journals have 'Letters' in the journal name). In the age of the internet, this has become redundant; you can just as easily (actually, much much more easily) communicate your results by writing them up in your blog. Once you have built up enough reputation on your blog, you might get requests from other scientists to feature their work on your blog. Voila - peer review and reputation.

      But now, publications are just indicators of penis size. The process of writing and peer review takes away valuable time from actual work. In the past 1-2 years I haven't done any more than a week or two of actual work; I've just been writing papers and talking to reviewers. I'm sure many other scientists are in the same boat. This is not the way it's supposed to be.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    4. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by udippel · · Score: 1

      I agree mostly, by the way, to what you say.

      Alas, how to distinguish? Wasn't - and isn't still? - Quantum Theory esoteric? I guess, for the general public, for the layperson, it is usually considered as such. Is it for science? I'm sure you'll agree that it is not. Archaeology? Sumerian clay pots? No, I'm no archaeologist. Though I would always raise my hand for the usefulness of continuing unearthing the relics of former, ancient, civilizations. Einstein, anyone?
      Or, maybe closer to /., von Neumann. What has he contributed? Years of teaching quantum science in the golden days of Berlin, before the Nazis came in, doing some math, doing some work in cryptography, in computer science. He wouldn't have made it, probably, in the pale copy that science has become in our days. Wittgenstein, he's even worse. In so-called modern terms, at least. One basic book, few articles. He'd be on the dole!

      When you take money, you owe something in return.

      Though we might agree here, I am afraid, we might not on its interpretation. What is 'return'? Something with an equivalent value in US$? Regular publications? Books? In a post-materialist society one tends to overlook non-tangible returns. In my current position, I have no teaching allocation, any yet I volunteer and enjoy it some hours per week, since it is possible within my duties for the relatively generous salary that the tax payer affords for me. Which is, by the way, surely more valuable in my case than forcing me to publish yet another article of no scientific relevance based on currently meager results.
      Meaning, that I'm doing the best that I can, returning the most that I can, without necessarily tangible returns. And when I have material to publish, I'll do so. Which brings us back to trust. The public is entitled to 'something in return', but in order to get results that are beyond staple diet, the public must trust us, that we don't pilfer away their money in jewelry, furniture, nor in efforts to prove creationism.
      I am afraid, there is more money available for the latter than for the analysis of dying spoken languages, by the way.

    5. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by udippel · · Score: 2

      Second this! - When I started in academia, 1980, there were exactly 2 journals in our/my field worth reading. And, yes, they were worth reading; because the articles contained would often summarize the work of complete teams, mostly achieved over years of work. And nobody would be admonished for 'insufficient' publications. On the other hand, had someone at the age of 35 in those days told us, that she'd been 'doing some 135 peer-reviewed journal articles', we would have her failed the job interview. We would have said "that's the least we're interested in".
      Few years ago, someone popping up in the interview and saying exactly that was set on a tenure-track professorship.
      And today, there are around 70 journals in our/my field. And most articles are lousy enough to wipe one's dirty shoes. But i don't blame the authors. I blame the science community overall not to rebuke the bean counters, the MBAs, the admin people, when those became jealous, and insecure, having to somehow evaluate the 'return' of our work. We ought to have offered them a cold shower instead by pointing out that our work usually does not come in tangible returns. But in intellectual returns; something in the realms that those people were lacking in.

    6. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 2

      > maybe that's because the taxpayers' money was used to fund bizarre, esoteric research that nobody would use in a million years,

      This is a very concerning attitude. Would you call research on, say, the Big Bang, 'esoteric' and 'useless'? If so, then you're wrong. If not, then could you cite some examples of what you mean?

      And how would you know in advance whether something would turn out to be useful? The nature of scientific funding is that you fund a lot of projects knowing that most of them will probably fail, but if one succeeds it could cause a major paradigm shift.

      > Too many scientists look down on the less intelligent and don't think they should have to answer to anyone.

      Most scientists I know tend to be very humble people. At least, much more humble than, say, businessmen. I haven't seen anything less than scientists JUMPING at the opportunity to explain their work to others. If anything, it's the laypeople that seem to have zero interest in what the scientists are doing.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    7. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by BVis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmm, maybe that's because the taxpayers' money was used to fund bizarre, esoteric research that nobody would use in a million years

      Are you qualified to make that determination? Have you read any of these papers beyond the sensationalized headline on some hideously inaccurate post on some web site? Is it possible that these "bizarre, esoteric" topics have more relevance to scientific inquiry than you think? Can you really look at one of these studies and say "well, no useful research here whatsoever"?

      When you take money, you owe something in return.

      Congratulations, you're part of the problem. It seems that you expect all research funded in this way to have immediate, practical applications. Science does not work that way. All scientific research builds on the work that has gone before it; it's possible that studying the mating habits of gibbons will aid in finding a cure for cancer in some way. I think the point here is that the (relatively) uneducated people are making the decisions about what to fund and what not to fund, and it should be scientists who are in a position to know what the fuck they're talking about that should be making that call. Yes, sometimes these studies fail, and nothing is accomplished. Welcome to science, where failure is not only a fact of life, it's necessary for the process to succeed. Without the freedom to fail, we may as well just let the evangelists take over and abandon science altogether.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    8. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by khallow · · Score: 1

      In the old days, which were not always good, a brilliant scientist/academician/professor would be granted tax payers' monies to pursue her dreams in science, at least as far as basic funding was concerned; that is not including expensive apparatuses.

      I think a large part of the problem are convenient myths that never were true. I don't believe these "old days" ever happened. And lots and lots of scientists are granted tax payers' monies now with remarkably little oversight (and behavior that demonstrates the public's lack of trust is warranted IMHO).

    9. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Well said.

      If you really want to pay for breakthrough research, you're inevitably going to spend a LOT of money on things that don't pan out. You can't just look at some breakthrough in isolation and say, "those guys discovered foo with only $bar in funding!" You have to look at the other 47 guys that were also given $bar in funding and they came up with nothing.

      If you could predict ahead of time whose research was going to pan out, then it wouldn't really be research, and you certainly wouldn't need to use tax dollars to fund it since every venture capitalist in town would already be funding it themselves.

    10. Re:Absolutely correct; but what's the reason? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, you're part of the problem. It seems that you expect all research funded in this way to have immediate, practical applications. Science does not work that way.

      Funny, how the same silly rebuttal keeps coming up. Because we want to see return on investment, it is automatically assumed that we want "immediate, practical applications".

      I think the point here is that the (relatively) uneducated people are making the decisions about what to fund and what not to fund, and it should be scientists who are in a position to know what the fuck they're talking about that should be making that call.

      I'd take the scientists more seriously, if they take acceptance of public funding more seriously? Want funding without any sort of accountability? Then fund it yourself. Everything else will have strings attached.

  19. One of countless problems by s.petry · · Score: 2

    What you mention is I believe symptom of other problems, not a problem by itself. To run down why science is currently being operated this way would be rather extensive so I'll cover the biggies.

    1) IP Laws have allowed certain entities to own ideas, and patent trolls to buy patents in bulk for no other purpose than to milk innovators if a product becomes successful. Remember that success can also include causing damage to a competing product, so the "success" is related to the patent owner and not society or the science. This has dissuaded sharing of science (collaboration) that up until very recent times was very normal and healthy for progress.

    2) Massive government and bureaucratic control of public funding. This has allowed "pet" project funding in place of what benefits society. In fact many projects are only to benefit the bureaucrats at the detriment of society.

    3) Same massive government does not understand science to uses measures which are invalid and unrealistic to maintain science programs.

    Everyone else including Universities are playing the games. There are many motives for this, and in many cases playing along is the only way to get funding.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:One of countless problems by narcc · · Score: 1

      It's the damn gubment!

    2. Re:One of countless problems by gtall · · Score: 2

      "3) Same massive government does not understand science to uses measures which are invalid and unrealistic to maintain science programs."

      I think this is a much bigger problem than you indicate. The reason: because bureaucrats do not understand science, they and their managers are being rewarded for successful science which they fund. They, being almost but not quite entirely stupid, have just enough on the ball to realize that if they narrow their funding targets to those they can be reasonably certain will succeed (namely because the researchers are only promising incremental advances), then they (the bureaucrats) will be rewarded with pay raises and more vacation time.

      The fellow up above had it correct, do the research first so you can point to it, then ask for funding for it promising some incremental improvements which, if you are on the ball, you've already done but not published, and then use the money to work on your next line of research. This notion of how to do research has been a running joke ever since I started in research lo' those many years ago, and I'm am not young.

      Essentially, it is the victory of the bean counters. These bureaucrats have no appreciable skills other than bean counting. They work in an environment that rewards them for counting the most of the correctly colored beans. Their ultimate bosses, the politicians, are even worse. The bureaucrats actually believe science is valuable even if they don't understand it. The politicians have no use for science because it cannot be spun very easily. They think of scientists as part of a big dodge who are colluding to prevent the pols from dictating how the world works...or worse, dictating how their god tells everyone else how it works.

    3. Re:One of countless problems by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The fellow up above had it correct, do the research first so you can point to it, then ask for funding for it promising some incremental improvements which, if you are on the ball, you've already done but not published, and then use the money to work on your next line of research.

      I departed from the academic track back in the 90s, but even back then this was already recognized as the way to get stuff done. Nobody worked on the stuff that was the subject of the grant.

    4. Re:One of countless problems by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      The reason: because bureaucrats do not understand science, they and their managers are being rewarded for successful science which they fund.

      This isn't actually the way science funding works in the US. NIH has plenty of career bureaucrats, yes, but many of them came up the traditional scientific ladder, not the get-a-union-backed-government-job ladder. But in any case, the specific funding decisions that most academic scientists depend on are mostly up to peer review panels: professors (etc.) receiving NIH funding get to serve on committees that read through piles of grants and score them.

      Now, the issue with this is that a) it is susceptible to groupthink and other forms of academic politics, b) the criteria for grant acceptance (and, to some degree, inherent conservatism of peer reviewers) still tend to rule out wildly risky projects, and c) nobody at the NIH wants to be hauled before a Congressional panel to explain why they gave $2 million to a project they knew was risky. But it isn't simply an issue of career bureaucrats who don't understand science. The people who make the funding decisions actually understand science very well, they're just working under too many limitations (their own, and those imposed upon them).

  20. Re:It All Comes Down to FAT CATS by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Neither you nor the GP offer any evidence to back up your claims. I'm not interested in preparing a thesis about the correlation of political orientation and intelligence. I'll just offer this,

    http://www.psychologytoday.com...

    and share my own personal experience, which us that there are smart and dumb people across the political spectrum.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  21. Tenure-hunting discourages risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In some areas, e.g. for SIGGRAPH, the review is double-blind; only the paper committee knows the identity of the authors so that they can assign reviews who do not have a conflict of interest. However, this only really works for areas that are being hotly pursued by many different research groups; diction (often researchers will have different terms for the same thing based on what research group they are in), writing style and illustrations will often give away at least one of the authors, if not the first author.

  22. The Trouble with Physics by DrJimbo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Lee Smolin's brilliant book The Trouble with Physics discussed this issue eight years ago. The book also includes the best introduction to string theory for a scientifically oriented non-physicist I have ever seen.

    Smolin concluded the "trouble with physics" is the problem discussed in the article: the current system rewards small incremental steps over creative leaps. He discusses the risk to payoff ratios. He says the current system drums out most truly creative people.

    --
    We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
    -- Anais Nin
    1. Re:The Trouble with Physics by Animats · · Score: 1

      Smolin is worth reading, even if you don't agree with him. One of his comments is "Smart people should not program". He wants physicists to push the programming work down to lower-level people.

      His big problem with physics is mostly with string theory. String theory is an elegant mathematical description of how physics might work. It doesn't make any predictions that are experimentally testable, at least not without orders of magnitude more accelerator power than currently available. String theory may be just an amusing mathematical exercise. We don't know. Smolin's complaint is that string theory ate physics - for a while, you had to be a string theorist to have a career in theoretical physics.

    2. Re:The Trouble with Physics by Boronx · · Score: 1

      Does the book go into detail on why string theory ate Physics?

    3. Re:The Trouble with Physics by khallow · · Score: 1

      I gather the reason is that it turned out to be a rather fertile field, mathematically. There are a variety of symmetries including a complete characterization of all string theory models in terms of each other (and a higher order M theory model which has each of them as a special case), connections to other models and mathematical concepts, and a huge realm in which a budding PhD can stake a claim.

      So when it came to a choice between this field and a bunch of rather stagnant and/or even more complex and further abstracted areas (eg, quantum loop gravity, mundane quantum field theory), they choose the grounds that were more likely for them to make a mark.

    4. Re:The Trouble with Physics by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Lee Smolin is one of the tiny minority of physicists who are genuinely thinking about the major problems of the field. I would also recommend Three Roads To Quantum Gravity.

      Another I quite respect is Frank Close. I found Nothing: A Very Short Introduction to be quite thought provoking. And that is the point, by the way. Good physics, and in general good science writing, should be above all thought provoking.

      --
      I come here for the love
  23. maybe it has just moved out of university by Sad+Loser · · Score: 4, Informative

    I work in biomedical research and yes - a lot of money is diverted into research with incremental benefits - me-too drugs.

    remember that big pharma spend more on marketing than on research.

    The interesting stuff has effectively been outsourced to start-ups that find compounds, do some basic work and then sell to a pharma to commercialise. That way at least the people doing the creating get some benefit.

    What hasn't happened in its stead is any good research at delivering and applying a lot of the knowledge/ practice we do have, and this is where we could get a lot of bang for our buck and we could be a lot more creative - just by doing what we know works correctly.
    This is particularly true in fields where there is not currently much research (because there is no big drugs market)

    --
    Humorous signatures are over-rated.
    1. Re:maybe it has just moved out of university by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      I work in biomedical research and yes - a lot of money is diverted into research with incremental benefits - me-too drugs.

      I don't buy into this line of argument. What you say is obviously true, but the implied argument is that this money is wasted. Every antibiotic since pennicilian is in a sense a me-too drug, but I hear doctors always going on about how we don't invest enough in antibiotics because there isn't a big market for new ones (and it doesn't help that we squander the ones that we have).

      You never want just one drug to treat a particular condition. You don't even want one drug that has a particular mechanism to treat a particular condition. The problem is that while only one drug can statistically be the best treatment for a problem, when it comes down to individuals you have a lot of variance. Maybe drug A is the drug with the best outcomes for a condition you have, but you take it and after two days you have hives breaking out everywhere. Drug B might be a me-too drug that doesn't even work as well, but if you can't take drug A without suffocating then drug B is probably a lot better than take some aspirin for the pain until the disease kills you.

      Research into me-too drugs is already self-limiting. If somebody comes up with another statin that only works 5% better than the current ones, they'll have very little market - the extra competition will depress prices on all the branded treatments, and the generic ones are already out there and will always be far cheaper.

      Also, often the me-too drugs are drugs that were 80% through development when somebody beat them to the market. At that point a company can either just cancel the program and eat the sunk costs, or spend incrementally more to bring the drug to market and at least recover some of those costs. Often the math works out better to move ahead, and patients are better for having an extra option.

      remember that big pharma spend more on marketing than on research.

      Very true, but that is also true of just about every industry out there. Pharma actually spends a lot more on R&D than most companies do.

      I'm all for getting rid of the non-value-add marketing, but that requires a change in consumer behavior. If people stop buying whatever the Hollywood actors tell them to buy, then companies will stop paying those actors to hawk their products.

    2. Re:maybe it has just moved out of university by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very true, but that is also true of just about every industry out there. Pharma actually spends a lot more on R&D than most companies do.

      I'm all for getting rid of the non-value-add marketing, but that requires a change in consumer behavior. If people stop buying whatever the Hollywood actors tell them to buy, then companies will stop paying those actors to hawk their products.

      Is it? http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/does-pharma-spend-more-marketing-rd-numbers-check/2013-05-21

      "That's a total for 2010 of more than $31 billion, the best guess-timate we can come up with on short notice. According to FierceBiotech's 2010 R&D spending report, the industry shelled out $67 billion on research that year--more than twice our quick-and-dirty marketing estimate."

      Can you cite an example of a Hollywood actor (by this you're implying a big name celebrity) that pushes a drug?

      What most people would consider advertising in that $31B quoted is actually only about 10%. The bulk of marketing spending is to inform/convince MD's to prescribe their product to patients.

      In other words, the ratio of R&D to TV/Magazine/Newspaper ad purchasing is nearly 17:1.

  24. Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You cannot predict what you do not know, and to measure how long something takes, it turns out you need to know it pretty darn well. So if anyone claiming to be a scientist claims they need x dollars to get you something amazing in y days, they are talking straight out of their ass. All they have is their curiosity and a hunch. The journey is unknown, and so are the results. To know you will succeed, you have had to have succeeded already. This isn't to be confused with engineering. Engineering is different because you already know the technology and have the tools. You can simulate what you're building before you build it. But the science that gives way to technology no one can predict. If anyone should admit to this, it should be the scientists. The only reason they can't is for political and financial reasons.

    1. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by khallow · · Score: 1
      Speaking of convenient myths, this is a huge one. Science is "unpredictable and unprofitable" therefore you just have to give us a lot of money and stop asking questions about why we're not doing anything useful with what you are giving us.

      All they have is their curiosity and a hunch.

      That hunch can be quite good.

      Have you ever bothered to test your assertions using the scientific method, or have you merely assumed this myth is true?

    2. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever bothered to test your assertions using the scientific method, or have you merely assumed this myth is true?

      I doubt he did, that would be un-American

      America is a nation of freedom. If it's between freedom and science, America would choose freedom.

      In this case, America choose to force people to pay taxes over forcing people to believe (or stop believing) in certain things.

    3. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only utterly ignorant and stupid people will demand scientific method on something that is not scientific.
      Creativity, innovation, entepreneurship, curiosity and love is non-repeatable, therefore out of bounds of true science, ie. not scientific.

      Of course, trying to explain this to people who are not creative, innovative, enterpreneurial, curious or loving, is pretty much like throwing pearls to swine.

    4. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by khallow · · Score: 1

      Only utterly ignorant and stupid people will demand scientific method on something that is not scientific.

      We're not speaking of something that isn't scientific. We're speaking of science itself.

      Of course, trying to explain this to people who are not creative, innovative, enterpreneurial, curious or loving, is pretty much like throwing pearls to swine.

      But I think it's worth trying anyway. Maybe you'll get it next time.

    5. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by khallow · · Score: 1

      As an aside, do you think that climatology, geology, or astronomy can't have the scientific method applied to them due to the intractability of large portions of those fields to repeatable experiment?

    6. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      Right. Because good hunches are the fundamentally sound foundations of modern science.

      They promised blood pressure medication and got a boner pill. That is science. The evidence backs the statement that science is unpredictable. If we could predict science, we could predict the future. We can do neither. But that is precisely why science is so exciting. The hunch is exhilarating and it's worth enough to pursue it even at great risk. The original article here is talking precisely why those risks are becoming harder to accept, and how we have systematically discouraged courageous science. I'm not referring to crackpots. Real scientists who know what they're doing want to go on long journeys into the unknown. But they are only permitted to venture into where the light somewhat shines already. The personal and scientific rewards here are mediocre. You only get the occasional wow when you find your pill just cured ED.

    7. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by khallow · · Score: 1

      Right. Because good hunches are the fundamentally sound foundations of modern science

      They're sounder than the original circular assertion that scientific knowledge is unknowable until you know it.

      But they are only permitted to venture into where the light somewhat shines already.

      Nobody forces them to use other peoples' money with other peoples' strings attached. A huge part of the problem here is that the people getting the funding aren't actually the exhilarating risk takers you make them out to be.

    8. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      Right. Because good hunches are the fundamentally sound foundations of modern science

      They're sounder than the original circular assertion that scientific knowledge is unknowable until you know it.

      There are no degrees in soundness here. Hunches are not scientific, period. And "unknown until you know" is not circular reasoning. It's a tautology, not reasoning. Unknown == State before you know. There is nothing circular. It's two ways of saying the same thing.

      But they are only permitted to venture into where the light somewhat shines already.

      Nobody forces them to use other peoples' money with other peoples' strings attached. A huge part of the problem here is that the people getting the funding aren't actually the exhilarating risk takers you make them out to be.

      They need money, but have no money, hence they have no choice if they want to do science. That's what this whole topic is about. Money is only given to those who play it safe or those that lie. And if they didn't have to play it safe, more would be willing to take greater chances. And if they didn't have to lie, there wouldn't be less fake science.

    9. Re:Science is unpredictable and unprofitable by khallow · · Score: 1

      There are no degrees in soundness here.

      Sure, there are. There also are degrees of knowledge. I think this failing results in the subsequent argument.

      And "unknown until you know" is not circular reasoning. It's a tautology, not reasoning.

      I didn't say "unknown", I said "unknowable". Look at the original premise rather than just misreading what I wrote. Moving on:

      They need money, but have no money, hence they have no choice if they want to do science. That's what this whole topic is about. Money is only given to those who play it safe or those that lie. And if they didn't have to play it safe, more would be willing to take greater chances. And if they didn't have to lie, there wouldn't be less fake science.

      Well, here's another case of circular reasoning which starts with the assumption that scientists have no money. Well, they could always use their wealth which for some reason you assumed they didn't have, instead, if they really don't want constraints on what they do.

  25. Re:If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it better be reproducible."

    Did you mean the experiment or the paper? :p
    My prophetic tendencies tell me there may come a day when reproducing an FTL experiment for real might be less risky than making a copy of the original paper ^^

  26. Re:If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I recall a significant amount of people arguing for more verifiable studies, tighter acceptance criteria, and more peer-review. That says anything but "let's research more crazy things."

    No, actually that's one of the key points of tighter acceptance criteria and peer review. Currently it is very common for scientists to take something that is, at best a small incremental improvement, and package it up in a paper to look like a major discovery. When you take some of the smartest people in the world and what's at stake is being able to feed their families - well, they can make a turd look really really shiny.

    Part of the problem is that the publication quotas don't allow enough time to make genuine major discoveries. But the other part of the problem is that research that would lead to major discoveries is almost impossible to get funded.

    Now, personally, I tend to take the view that tightening acceptance criteria is like continuing the beatings until morale improves. It's not like scientists are all sitting around with clear paths to major discoveries but they just prefer to churn out polished turds because it's slightly less work. Maybe it was better back in the good old days and maybe it wasn't - but the current system of bureaucratic micro-managing scientific research is a major obstacle to genuine progress.

  27. Yes, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes in the reduction in creativeness of the scientific community or yes in the reduction of funding which causes the lack of the daring / adventurous spirit in pursuing the research subjects ?

    Which one ?

    1. Re:Yes, what? by invictusvoyd · · Score: 0

      Yes in the reduction in creativeness of the scientific community or yes in the reduction of funding which causes the lack of the daring / adventurous spirit in pursuing the research subjects ?

      perhaps yes in the "too much college education dumbs your mind"

    2. Re:Yes, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you saying that a lack of funding is a ~cause~ of lack of creativity? That is patently goddamn ridiculous.

  28. We don't need that many super brilliants. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
    The creativity distribution obeys a very strong version of the power law [*1]. What it means almost all the brilliant scientific breakthrough comes from very few scientists. Creating incentives for creativity will make the scientists use all that creativity in getting the incentives, innovative proposals, truly genius grant applications etc. Take for example, the true innovation in understanding the "evolution of cooperation". On the face of it "survival of the fittest" and "nature red in tooth and claw" would seem to discourage cooperation between individuals. But many species including our own are highly cooperative. How come? The ground work was done by one guy (Maynard Smith?) in "Evolutionarily Stable Strategies". One guy conducted a tournament of strategies in 1980s in U Mich (Axelrod?). One guy won it, (Anatol?) tit-fot-tat. I think Richard Dawkins played a catalyst by bringing together a biologist and an economist. They were both working on the same cooperation problem but were unaware of each other's work because they used different terminologies. Then a whole bevy of scientists refine the understanding of Iterative Prisoners Dilemma problem to the present level where we can explain how cooperation evolved.

    All I am saying is this emphasis on leadership and creativity is a little too much. Leads to "All Chiefs and no Indians" problem. Good, strong, independent thinking followers are as important to science as leaders. And we need an order of magnitude more followers. If anything we should reduce the incentives for creativity so that only truly creative people shine through.

    [*1] Power Law: aka 80-20 law. 80% income by top 20% of earners, 80% of crime by 20% of criminals etc.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:We don't need that many super brilliants. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The creativity distribution obeys a very strong version of the power law [*1]. What it means almost all the brilliant scientific breakthrough comes from very few scientists.

      Very few people win the lottery but that doesn't mean that very few people are capable of winning the lottery. If winning the lottery was all about talent then we'd expect to see the same people win over and over. With Nobel prizes, the winners are almost always scientists who do consistently good work but almost always there's only one single Nobel prize worthy discovery that they've made. They don't just keep on making Nobel prize worthy discoveries every single year for their entire career.

      If anything we should reduce the incentives for creativity so that only truly creative people shine through.

      In a certain sense I agree. There's more than enough incentives for scientific creativity. We could almost certainly reduce those incentives without decreasing scientific creativity.

      But what's missing is the safety net. The reason that most scientists stay away from creative out-of-the-box research isn't lack of incentives. It's the fact that such research is likely to fail and, in the current system, when it does fail such scientists have to leave science - a difficult transition with some very lean years where it's a struggle to even feed their families.

      But there are solutions: give scientists jobs where half the work consists is routine and likely to succeed - and then let them pursue exciting new directions in the other half of their work - with only the minimal requirement that they account for their time enough to prove they're not just sitting on the couch watching TV when they're supposed to be exploring the unknown.

  29. If you want to fix science.... by Beck_Neard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not that hard to see what you have to do. Provide a funding system that reflects how science actually works. Provide longer-term grants that are accepting of minor failures or changes in research direction. Cut down on the bureaucracy and the committees. Realize that not all research falls into the domain of 'big name' journals and instead focus on more realistic metrics of progress. Some funding agencies are already starting to move in this direction.

    Non-risky science is a big problem, but there's an even bigger problem. You know how news outlets have a focus on churning out news that is sensationalist and overhyped to whore for views and attention? Well, sadly, it's starting to look like that in science. Nowadays the most 'successful' labs are the ones that hype their output the most and shout loudest over the din of everyone else. This is aided and encouraged by both grant agencies and 'big name' journals like Nature.

    As a result, we now have an entire self-sustaining system for producing bullshit, where bullshit goes through the cycle of hype and publication, leading to grant money, leading to even more bullshit. Some of these big labs become black holes for funding, consuming millions upon millions and then ten years later everyone wonders why their miraculous cancer cure turned out to be a dud.

    I don't know when it got this way, or if it's always been this way. Hell, I'm just a newcomer. But I have a hard time imagining that this system would produce people like Einstein or Crick. People like Fleischmann and Pons, more likely.

    --
    A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    1. Re: If you want to fix science.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Second this. In almost every 20+ researcher lab, there is a stream of super hyped papers solely meant to maintain funding. Valid conclusions? Consistent results? Not necessary!

  30. Lack of Focus on Planet's Health Needs, maybe... by ivi · · Score: 1

    Fusion research seems to get all the Gov't $$$ it needs, & uses all the energy it needs, even when it comes from fossil fuel powered energy plants...

    While USA's Energy from Thorium, Molten Salt Reactors & Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors - which could produce 100% green energy - for Fusion & lots more users across the planet.

    Much basic & applied work supporting MSR & LFTR work was done in the 1950's, so perhaps it's not to be "sexy" enough to draw funding today.

    It may be unethical to run (Gov't-funded) "mega-energy-consuming-projects" like Fusion, eg, as CO2 levels & storm-activity continue to rise, hand-in-hhand.

    We need Ethical Committees (like those whose approval is needed when humans are involved in medical trials) to decide whether such mega' projects as Fusion should be put on HOLD, pending implementation of 100% green energy sources, like Energy from Thorium, that is long overdue.

    While it's nice that a Canadian company found funding from some mining companyl who'd have to burn a lot of natural gas, if they don't get heat from the company's (coming) small, transportable Molten Salt Reactors, in the coming 6+ years.

    But USA has wasted too much $$$ on war-making & Fusion R&D, that could have brought MSRs & LFTRs into implementation decades ago... This is not to say it can't / shouldn't do so NOW. It should!

    Lots of people feel strongly about this. More media focus & more people pushing their politicians, at all levels, to re-focus Science R&D on "finishing the work" begun by Alvin Weinberg, so long ago.

  31. Re:It All Comes Down to FAT CATS by dbIII · · Score: 2

    True. Some people are quite intelligent but pretend to be stupid in order to fit in with a bunch of luddite extremists, especially if there is a chance of money or power on the table.

  32. Seven days then an uncharging eternity by dbIII · · Score: 1, Funny

    I'll bite since you are using this to push your petty little political barrow of dismantling the secular state for a theocracy of lay preachers and the catamites they lay with. You've got it backwards and are railing against people that do not feel constrained by a dumbed down version of Genesis and an even more ridiculous extrapolation from it and instead take a look at the world for themselves.

    1. Re:Seven days then an uncharging eternity by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting that putting a little funding into things like alternative gravity theories such as MOND/TeVeS that might have a chance at explaining the universe while doing away with the ugly artifact of dark matter needed by current theories of the universe, and which we can't find, will lead to the Caliphate or something? I see its pub hours in Oz. Are you a cot case?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  33. Overhead by mdsolar · · Score: 2

    NASA, for example, does not allow grant funding to be used to write grants. So, this preliminary data thing sounds like a different model. Where did the money come from to obtain the preliminary data? With regard to NASA, grants can cover administrative overhead. And, most institutions have support for new grant writing efforts. Doubtless, some NASA grant money that goes to overhead ends up providing support for that kind of effort so new grants do get written. It is just murky.

    In any case, all that work to find out if an idea is technically feasible enough to make a good grant proposal gets paid for somehow to persuade peers that a proposal is viable. So, really, the originality of new grant proposals has something to do with how well faculty are supported in exploring new ideas. That would seem to be the place to ensure that peer reviews get to see exciting and not just competent proposals. Are the institutions hiring the most creative postdocs, for example? Are junior faculty getting good seed money? Is there time set aside for use of laboratories for pursuit of hunches? So, if granting institutions want to see more creative proposals, they'll have to look at the institutional culture grant overhead supports.

  34. This is what happens when a field gets into fraud. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It happens whenever "getting the grant" is more important than "doing the research".

  35. Everything is too mechanized... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    Everyone follows a program like little computers making it impossible for people to make leaps of intuition and follow them to their conclusion.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  36. Well yeah by Drethon · · Score: 2

    Creativity tends to go a different direction with mainstream. When peer-review is important do you really want to contradict or say something different from your peers?

  37. Lowering Risk for Bio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the system makes the process for getting a new drug hugely expensive, you have to be careful.
    If Asprin was discovered today, it could take years to get approved.
    When the system takes excess profits away, you no longer have them to fund risky ventures.
    The high tax rates are part of the problem. The patent on your drug starts when you invent it.
    You have to go through years of tests before you can market it, so you only get a few years to get payback.
    Too much of the system goes through the government.
    A phone app maker has a better chance of getting venture funding than a Bio researcher.
    Cut the red tape, make the board of directors responsible for bad drugs, not some bureaucrat.

  38. A complicated question. by drolli · · Score: 1

    I worked for 10 years as a researcher in quantum computation. Looking back, i would say that i see a mixed bag. On the negative side i have to say that many groups try to jump on whichever direction the most recent five papers in the field had been in, very often with little or no result at all. (if the Nature paper is out, the other group already followed the new path for five years).

    On the positive side, we come to the other groups/leaders, which follow a direction which adresses aa problem until it's solved. In the superconducting QC field that would be for example (There are many other good and creative groups in the field) the group of John Martinis. They adressed the problems they saw over years in hard work (and that started in 2002 or earlier), at least such effort is usually rewarded in science on the long term.
    But again on the negative side: the papers they managed to put in Nature or Science were focused on the final results of the engineering - the papers which really adressed the problem puzzeling the community for years, where they really found out how to reach the goal were published in Physical Review B, Physical Review Letters and some other Journals. (Phys. Rev. Lett. 93, 077003, Phys. Rev. Lett. 95, 210503, Phys. Rev. B 68, 224518, Phys. Rev. B 67, 094510, Phys. Rev. Lett. 89, 117901, Phys. Rev. B 77, 180508). The fact that enhancing the building blocks for a final result gives you much less impact factor than obtaining the final result make the stategy not be creative and hope for others to fix problems a reasonable one. Even catching a Nature paper every few years is enough for a conservative, non-abitious group leader, so you can burn a few postdocs in average, which you put up to the current topic, and if you a lucky, your results look accidentally good every few years, even if you did not contribute much to science.

  39. Solution by StripedCow · · Score: 1

    Kickstarter for scientists. Just put your project there, and see if it gets funded.

    --
    If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    1. Re:Solution by drjuggler · · Score: 0

      My antimatter holo-reactor will only take another 30 years to develop! The first 40 backers at $1000000 or more will get a plush boson that they can squeeze at night as they dream of their grandchildren getting unlimited energy routed to their VR implants and stasis tanks.

  40. Workaholics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seems like you need to be a workaholic to make it through the selection processes these days. It's also mostly a game of social manipulation and networking.

    How many top creative people are completely stable, hard working, and good with others?

  41. yes and no by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    To get proposals funded you need to point to something already existing for the most part and say how yours is very similar to that/likely to succeed. So yeah the funding and financial steering is towards things that are not very innovative. However there are a few a compensating factors. 1) Doing something similar both verifies theories/that we actually understand what we thing we do and has the chance of something different happening which either invalidates the theory or adds nuance. 2) Most people aren't really that capable of innovation: science has their equivalent of timecard punchers too: lots of people are smart enough to do science, few are able to do it well, and even fewer will come up with the new ideas. 3) Even those that are innovative aren't going to come up with that many new ideas. Take Einstein, he was a theorist so didn't have as much of a time requirement in terms of designing ordering and using equipment etc. Still (I might miss something) he only had a 3 really big ideas: energy matter equivalence, Brownian motion, and arguably relativity (GR and SR are really just consequences of energy-matter equivalence + the invariability of the speed of light). 3 ideas in a 50 year career.

    Once the idea is out there the timepunchers (relatively, still very smart people and they might be innovating techniques that make things more accurate, quicker etc but they aren't the one with the big foundational ideas) quickly become able to run the experiments that build up the data and there are much more of them. So naturally the job of allocating resources focuses on sending the money to the timepunchers not to the innovators: they'll likely hack something together with equipment they already have on the weekend for free anyways, be theorists so not need a lot of resources, or for biomed go the private financing/corporate route.

  42. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, you've explained why string theory has been a boon to mathematics. But not why it has been a reasonable road for physics to walk down. String theory is born of the desperation of physicists to try to explain cornerstones like gravity. String theory, despite some rather attractive mathematical undergarments, is wearing no physics clothes.

    1. Re:Yes by khallow · · Score: 1

      No,I've explained why it's been so attractive to all sorts of scientists. Here, I think it's been a little bit of a surprise that the model has been so resistant to physical observation. Sure, everyone has a good idea that most of the theory is well beyond current observation, but I think they expected they'd find more testable aspects to it by now.

  43. Innovation goes faster than ever by GuB-42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It may look like scientists nowadays are less creative. I don't think it's the case, they just communicate more.
    Research is always made in small steps. The thing is that now, with sites like arXiv and search engines, we see all these small steps instead of just the end result. It is probably why it looks more incremental.
    Another factor is that we have pretty much nailed down most of the human scale phenomena. Science now needs to address high level of accuracy or work at the nano or cosmic scales. Our brains are not made to deal with this, as a result, a lot of rigor is required and most wonderfully creative ideas end up flat out wrong when compared to the actual data. Because of this, when someone comes up with a creative idea, we need to make sure that he is ready to deal with high precision observations.

    1. Re:Innovation goes faster than ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree.

      It's not the incremental nature of things that's the problem, it's that so much money and reward is being placed into those incremental improvements. It's not arXiv, it's NIH/NSF.

      As another poster noted, it's all about style over substance, and increasingly people are rewarded for the number of times something is repeated, rather than advancing understanding. With grant funding, it's all about minimizing risk and speaking to the choir.

      This has been really well documented empirically at this point. For example, the number one predictor of you receiving a grant in the biomedical sciences is whether or not you have worked with someone on a grant review panel, and people who are on grant review panels tend to be people who have recieved grants (you can see where this heads). Grant funding is also unrelated to research impact (i.e., in terms of citations), and grant proposal score is also unrelated to impact metrics.

      It's not just the federal agencies at fault. University administrators love things like publication count because it's easy for them to track, and easy to go to funding legislatures with--even if the research is low-impact. They're also addicted to grant dollars, which means they just reinforce the bad trends of the federal funding agencies.

      Add to this things like TED talks and sensationalist media coverage that incentivize researchers, departments, and universities for style over substance, and the monopolistic economic structuring of healthcare (which tends to create economic incentives for certain types of research, and certain types of research results, by favoring those who control service provision in one way or another) and you're putting fuel on the fire.

      Things could change, but it would require some significant changes. For example, funding agencies could explicitly allocate a certain percent of funds to higher-risk projects. They could deliberately disrupt grant review panel networks, by sort of going to some sort of random selection system (e.g., researchers register in some pool and get randomly selected to be asked to be on grant review panels). Or, as has been suggested, grants could be randomly awarded among the top 50 percent of proposals. The federal government could drastically cut indirect cost funding to universities, or strictly itemize those costs, to disincentivize universities relying on grants so heavily as profit generators. Politicians (at the local and federal level) could get themselves out of judging what is good and bad science (or even "science" and "not science") and leave it to actual scientists (hell, they should get out of academics altogether--why all the hate toward the humanities? It makes no sense). University libraries could create a coalition creating an embargo against purchases of journal subscriptions, and instead encourage scientists to publish in paper repositories or professional websites.

      When I talk to my retired colleagues about this, the general sense I get from them is that yes, increased communication is playing a role. But not in the way you mention. Essentially, academics and scientific research isn't taking advantage of the advances in communication; it's just pretended it's not there. So before, you didn't see all the trivial research and stuff (or it appeared in locally published technical reports), because it was so costly to prepare it and then actually publish it. But no one was incentivizing or rewarding trivial publications either. Now those trivial publications are treated the same as the publications from 50 years ago, even though the cost to produce them (in terms of scientific effort) is so much lower.

        I could go on and on, but yes, science has a serious problem.

  44. Not a Public Education Issue by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

    In elementary school, my kids did an independent science fair project every year. They learned to do graphical programming in Scratch. The school had several teams that competed in robotic competitions.

    FYI that's not a normal public school.

    It is if you are middle class. And it is not just a public school issue. It is also an income issue. My girl will have a greater chance of success given that

    1. I can afford pouring her with educational activities,
    2. and that I can afford having one of us parents stay at home to help her with homework,
    3. and that I can afford keeping her busy with extra curricular activities,
    4. and that both of us are college educated

    compared to another kid of the same age and talent potential whose parents

    1. cannot afford pouring her with the same amount of educational activities
    2. cannot afford for one of them to stay home for them,
    3. will inevitably spend more idle time because of that

    Neither situation implies guarantee success for my girl nor failure for the hypothetical kid in the comparison. But the conditions and disparities are real, and amount and accrue to tilt the odds one way. No amount of public education the way it is funded nowadays can change that.

    We know how to teach. We simply allow a system that permits the existence of school districts better funded than others.

    The problem people are discussing here is not about the school system per say, but the system that funds public education which is a) highly local, and b) relies heavily on real state taxes. If there were true state and federal level public education funding systems and/or if we were to diversify local public education funding away from real state taxes, you would see a change.

    You can have a great brain surgeon or a world class oncologist, but he will not do his magic if you pay him crap, you only give him a Neolithic stone dagger and a bag of aspirins to do his work, and you measure his performance under such conditions. It is not a problem with his professional potential, but the system that funds him and deploys him.

    This is very obvious. So why do we examine public education on a different light? It is not our public education system that is doing this or that. It is the system that funds it, and our culture's ethos regarding the role of state and federal government that are a) vital to our society and b) whose support systems are fundamentally broken.

    Either we get Fed/big government involved, or we get local governments to find more equitative (cue morons screaming "socialism!"), more diversified sources of funding away from things that are purely a function of economic brackets/classes (real state taxes.)

    We do not want big government involved, but at the same time, we do not do shit to properly fund public education across all income brackets and neighborhoods? How the hell does that make sense? How the hell does this become a fault of our public education system?

    1. Re:Not a Public Education Issue by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      but the system that funds public education which is a) highly local, and b) relies heavily on real state taxes.

      That's really state specific. If your state is broken, fix your state's funding system.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Not a Public Education Issue by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it gets fixed. Then idiots who think all taxes are bad get some power and it's back to the local system relying on property taxes (and sometimes sales taxes).

      Now, assume Minnesota fixed it once and for all. That's not going to help a kid in Mississippi. There is no US educational system.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Not a Public Education Issue by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Now, assume Minnesota fixed it once and for all. That's not going to help a kid in Mississippi. There is no US educational system.

      That is by design.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  45. It's always been that way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's always been easier, safer, and more reliably productive for scientists, young and old, to contribute incrementally to established lines of inquiry rather than to attempt to trailblaze. The present age is no different.

    See Kuhn, Thomas..

  46. Re:It All Comes Down to FAT CATS by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    I'll see your bible thumping idiot and raise you a crystal rubbing, fixey riding, vegan idiot!

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  47. Re:If a Headline is a Question, The Answer is "No. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Most? No.

    But recognizing an anomaly and pulling that thread has long been among experimentalists best tools.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  48. It's about Kuhn by thrig · · Score: 2

    Nary a word about Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions, in particular the distinction between the puzzle solving of normal science and the different conditions of revolutions in thinking? Oh, the revolutionary thinkers face an uphill battle (like they always have)? I am shocked, shocked, at this sorry state of not learning from the history of science.

    1. Re:It's about Kuhn by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      People with revolutionary new ideas should face an uphill battle. For every Swiss patent technician who wants to change the very basis of space and time to make some equations work out better, we've got innumerable crackpots.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:It's about Kuhn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, mostly because Kuhn isn't the be-all-end-all of the theory of science.

  49. I know people. The biochemist is right. by bussdriver · · Score: 2

    I know some people in academic research; retired and current.
    The system is fucked up; to use the expression of the youngest one.

    In pursuit of "perfection" we have so much worrying about oversight to prevent waste and corruption that was already lower than everywhere else that we continually clamp down and harm the system more every "reform." This extends into the publishing system which also has a "gold stars" approach where it's all about quantity and not quality. A big earth shattering research paper is foolish; you milk it for dozens of lesser papers almost nobody reads (and creates more research work.) So now we need IBM to device an AI to handle the volume when it probably could go down by a factor of 100 (that said, active topics are still too much for a human to keep up with.)

    Creative science isn't even required-- we just need to fund wasteful stuff that politicians ignorantly rail against as being pointless. Some marine biologist wasting time studying some creature we don't eat... like sharks... finding out why bacteria don't cling to their skin like other creatures might be a total waste; however, that led to super anti bacterial coverings (which you don't see because somebody was allowed a trivial patent on publicly funded research... the real invention was the "pointless" research.)

  50. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  51. No breakthroughs left? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Science in general, and mathematics, has gotten to the point where there aren't any big breakthroughs left. Research seems to be on the margins with maximum effort for minimal progress. The days when a Von Neuman could revolutionize physics, computing, and many branches of mathematics at once seem to be over, because the territory is so well mapped by now. So the chances of any one piece of research being a big breakthrough are almost zero.

  52. THANK YOU by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    That made my day. Somebody else sees it permeating society too!

    I often wonder if our authoritarian society fosters these kinds of mental coasting, a mental laziness which is habitual because of the nature of the society to allow one to run on autopilot for so many aspects of like. Technology being a big factor as well; however, more chaotic natural settings makes one routinely have to think about little things all the time which also do not fit a clear repetitive pattern. (The nature of modern jobs has to also has to be a factor. )

    The attitudes regarding responsibility is another factor; you don't have to be concerned if you just delegate thinking to something else.

    Little Eichmann are also something to ponder.

  53. No, there's a deficit of scientific method by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Science" here in this article is about the allocation of public money to people with credentials, and social connections. Emphasis on the last ".". The word "Science" is conflated with scientific method and research so often, that their meanings are too vague to discuss succinctly.

    Inside that sphere called "Science", let's call it granting, the scientific method is utilized by some people more than others. The method is rarely exercised however. Repeatability is ignored.

    Most "studies" don't start with a hypothesis and test it. Gaussian is worshiped, statistics abused, and media reports of studies consistently misrepresent the meaning of studies: hint, most are just observational and "links" mean next to nothing.

      So let's ignore the scientific method here.

    So that leaves us with something called "Granting". Does granting need more creativity? Anecdotes and Expert opinion are not to be relied upon for answering this question. The scientific method is. Use it, it works.

    Disgusting.

  54. A lot of it is budgetary by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Keep cutting back on all that basic science, most of which is done by universities and the government. "Oh,", the Libertarians reply, "But companies will do the basic research, because it will lead to new things to monetize!"

    Let's ignore that most companies are forward-looking... to *maybe* the next quarter. Let's ignore the fact that basic research may not pay off for years, or decades, or may not directly ever pay off in something that you can sell, the Sacred Free Market will take care of it all, and if it doesn't, it wasn't needed anyway.

                      mark, watching folks leave due to US fed gov't budget cuts....

  55. Funding what we know by LongearedBat · · Score: 2

    If we don't know what we don't know, then we don't know if there's value in knowing whatever it is that we don't yet know. That's when we should fund research, to find out if the funding was worth the price of knowing whatever it is we don't know... and if there is something to know, whether it is worth knowing.

    But if we research what we already know, then because we already know most of what we want to know about, we will know only a little more about what we know much about rather than know much more about what we know little about.

    Isn't that pretty clear?

  56. Re:It All Comes Down to FAT CATS by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    There's also smart people who get fixated on something or other and can't understand arguments against it, and therefore come out looking either dumb or fanatical. Many of these post on Slashdot.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  57. Re:Is There a Creativity Deficit In Science? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Definition of a useful idiot: See above two posts.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  58. Re:Lack of Focus on Planet's Health Needs, maybe.. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    What I've heard from fusion researchers is that the budgets have been drastically cut over the years. When they were predicting it within twenty years when I was a kid, they assumed a certain level of funding. Some have said that research is on schedule, if you measure by research money rather than years. In any case, the researchers certainly aren't getting all the money they need.

    The reference to "too much $$$ on war-making & Fusion R&D" makes little sense, considering the relative magnitudes. One might as well refer to "too much water used in Lake Superior and my backyard pool". According to this, defense and such spending is 19% of the budget, while scientific and medical research as a whole is 2%. From this, current federal fusion research money is about $400M, which is more than three orders of magnitude smaller than the military budget. To put it another way, transferring 1% of the defense budget to fusion research would increase the latter by about a factor of 15. The second reference said that money spent on fusion for 57 years was about the same as what we spent on 72 days of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Also, if we're certain that such thorium reactors could be made to work effectively, producing all necessary energy cleanly, spending on it is not research. We're talking engineering. If there's any research involved, your second paragraph is at best uncertain. If it were this easy, somebody (not necessarily in the US) would probably have done it, probably India. I'm not arguing against putting serious resources into alternative reactor designs, but focusing only on one project seems way counterproductive. Some people don't want to spend Federal money on research while we've still got needy [white] kids. We've got lots of money if we want to spend it, and I'd like to keep pressing forward on many fronts.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  59. Ian Malcolm *was* Michael Crichton by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ian Malcolm *was* Michael Crichton. This is a common thread in the "adventure fiction / technothriller" category - the author writes a character in who is a thinly disguised version of themselves. This character is the only one who really understands what's going on, and the only reason everything isn't wrapped up into a happy ending by the end of chapter one is because no-one listens to this one person. Apart from a few courageous allies, pretty much all the other characters are stereotypes from the author's vision of "what's wrong with today's world" (idiot rednecks, brainless hippies, scientists playing god, mindless wage-slaves, chicken-hawks, pacifist weenies and so on). Tom Clancy's books are a great example of this, but you find the meme popping up everywhere once you start to think about it. Unsurprisingly, that's the one character that pretty reliably either "gets the girl" (or equivalent) by the end of the story or dies heroically, sacrificing themselves for everyone else.

  60. So I'm suggesting something other than written? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    So I'm suggesting something other than written?
    Easy answer for that one. I'm sure you can work that out for yourself instead of pretending to be a fucking idiot that can't.

    1. Re:So I'm suggesting something other than written? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone could describe you as "constrained," or "dumbed down." But when it comes to "ridiculous extrapolation," on the other hand .... I wonder what the genesis of that is? Cot case, or something else?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:So I'm suggesting something other than written? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Cot case, or something else?

      Looks like the later - I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I'm fairly certain you are not pushing this barrow out of mental illness but are instead pushing the science denial barrow out of an unholy clusterfuck of dumbed down religion penetrating deep into the bowels of extremist politics.

    3. Re:So I'm suggesting something other than written? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      So you've returned to ridiculous extrapolation. Please, explain this "science denial" you imagine I'm engaging in here.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    4. Re:So I'm suggesting something other than written? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Extrapolation? You have been very consistently showing your politics down our throats until we gag with a very large number of posts of that type over the last couple of years at least. This time at least it has nothing to do with the topic at hand yet you have invented a tenuous connection in order to force the entry of your politics into the comments on this story.

    5. Re:So I'm suggesting something other than written? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      What is the topic of this story? - "Is There a Creativity Deficit In Science?"
      What was the example given? - ""There’s a current problem in biomedical research"
      What did I post about? - Biomedical research, climate science, space science, unresolved issues, and funding allocation to explore breakthroughs or theories that might help get past those issues.

      That was entirely a discussion of matters related to science. You're the one trying to drag politics into this.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  61. See also Goodstein, Livingston. or Schmidt by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg...

    http://www.amazon.com/Have-Fun...
    http://infohost.nmt.edu/~shipm...

    http://disciplinedminds.tripod...

    From the last:
    "Who are you going to be? That is the question.
          In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline."
          The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy.
          Schmidt details the battle one must fight to be an independent thinker and to pursue one's own social vision in today's corporate society. He shows how an honest reassessment of what it really means to be a professional employee can be remarkably liberating. After reading this brutally frank book, no one who works for a living will ever think the same way about his or her job."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:See also Goodstein, Livingston. or Schmidt by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      That first link was remarkably lucid and applies even more today. Thanks for that.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.