Ontario Government Wants To Regulate the Internet

An anonymous reader writes This afternoon, the Ontario government appeared before the CRTC as part of its future of television hearing. Michael Geist reports that it issued a clear call for new regulation of so-called new media companies such as Netflix and Google. The government states: "In order to create a more level playing field, the ministry recommends decreasing this regulatory imbalance. The ministry believes the best way to accomplish this is to expand the regulation of new media TV, rather than by lightening the current regulation of traditional TV." What does the expansion of regulation involve? For the Ontario government, it includes regulating foreign online video services such as Google and Netflix, but exempting Canadian services.

Comments

Government doesn't get it.

[pubwvj]

Government doesn't get it. They don't control it. Sure, I would like to regulate the orbit of the planets but that is outside my realm. Likewise, the Canadian government is not just impotent but incompetent to think they could actually control foreign entities. Bozos.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever hit a "this service is not available in your country" message?

Not only can they control online services, they will

Obviously with a small effort most technically savvy people can find ways around roadblocks like this but not for the average user and not always legal. Which is what should piss people off.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[Livius]

The constitution says no, in black and white, but unfortunately Canadian courts like to make up the constitution as they go, so much so that they themselves have no idea what is constitutional and what is not.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[ultranova]

Likewise, the Canadian government is not just impotent but incompetent to think they could actually control foreign entities.

They don't want to control foreign entities, they want to control the cultural inputs their subjects are exposed to. We're going to keep seeing more and more such efforts as the Internet threatens to create non-geographic groups for people to identify with, which in the extreme would make local powers into little more than regional managers.

After all, the idea that people owe allegiance to a distant capital rather than a particular city is relatively new one. Who's to say loyalty to a web forum couldn't end up outweighting loyalty to a nation?

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[JMJimmy]

I actually watched the hearing live - the CRTC (federal) asked the Ontario government representative (one presenter of many) "what are you going to do when the headlines read Ontario Government Wants To Regulate the Internet?". He of course tried to side step it as "just new media" but no one was really buying into what the Ontario rep was selling.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[stephanruby]

Government doesn't get it. They don't control it.

Not only that, but with the wording they're using, they'd get their ass handed to them in front of a WTO panel.

...it includes regulating foreign online video services such as Google and Netflix, but exempting Canadian services.

Either that, or may be their end game is to also regulate their own Canadian online streaming services and to claim surprise and innocence when the WTO requires them to impose the same regulation on their own industry.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[JMJimmy]

Courts in the US, Canada, and the UK all disagree with your statement. Operating in a country does not require you to have a physical presence anymore, just "meaningful ties".

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[hjf]

Eh, can you blame them for wanting to "keep jobs in their country"? I mean, you americans (if you aren't american just ignore that part) just don't get it. The problem with Netflix is that they are US based. And their servers too. Netflix, for example, is available here in Argentina. But they don't have any local servers. They just stream straight from the US. The service sucks (international bandwidth is not the same as national. Or even local, as Netflix does in the US with hundreds of caches across the USA).

Netflix collects money from Argentinians and pays zero taxes in Argentina. They also don't invest here. And they effectively block the competition by making it economically impossible for a company to sell here since they won't be able to match their price (capital cost and taxes). This is the same for every other country that's not the US.

Canada has successfully regulated the TV industry, requiring a certain amount of local productions. This is why a LOT of US shows are actually shot in vancouver with canadian actors. Without this, the TV industry in Canada would be tiny. This is the same thing that happens here in south america: dozens of cable channels broadcasting only US shows.

Unfortunately, capitalism tends to centralize things to make it more efficient. The only way to force things to change is by legislation.

I don't like paying taxes either, but I would like if there was an industry of things, not just "arrogance" like "you don't have a right to collect taxes from me, I don't pay taxes in your country. Yes, i sell millions of my product there but i owe you nothing. And you better have a good infrastructure for me to be able to sell"

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[hjf]

they'd get their ass handed to them in front of a WTO panel.

So? who gives a fuck ? Do you know what country has the most rulings AGAINST them by the WTO? Find out and let me know. (I'll give you a hint: its name starts with UNITED).

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[knightghost]

The point of trade is that another country can do something better/faster/cheaper. If you can't compete then don't compete - don't invent some imaginary barriers then use lots of logic fallacies to defend it.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[hjf]

Actually Buenos Aires is trying to get Netflix to pay a 3% tax.

Argentinian netflix does have local movies. I watched Nueve Reinas (Nine Queens) there (if you're a netflix subscriber, would you please check for me if that's available in your region? If so, I'd also suggest you watch it).

The problem, as you say, if you buy a car and have it shipped, you pay tax. But services aren't taxed (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, i'm just stating a fact). And, as you say, if they don't have offices, they shouldn't pay anything. And this is where it gets interesting: why should any american company have offices outside the US? Everything they do is online or over the phone. You don't go to a netflix office.

As for the quota of local content: yes, I don't want to see crap shows on TV to meet a quota, but, as you say, the production value is different. The US has a huge advantage: they have their own market, which is gigantic. And they own the distribution too. They don't make their shows to "export", they do because it doesn't cost them more money.

But other countries don't have that advantage, and they have to play in a completely unfair game. How do you expect your country's productions to get better if they just simply can't because they have to compete with TV shows?

A TV show in the US has a budget of millions of dollar per episode. High profile shows even have millions of dollars in salaries, per actor, per episode. You can't really expect a TV show made in Suriname to have a $2M budget per episode. Not even for a whole season. No other country shoots their TV shows on FILM like the US does (or used to do - probably now it's all 4K video). All other countries shoot on SD video - that should give you an idea of how much the americans can spend for production - and also: now they can re-release all their old shows in HD (because their source material is able to give you that resolution). Try that with European shows - oopsie: they were shot on video. Good luck competing with that.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[ultranova]

Courts in the US, Canada, and the UK all disagree with your statement. Operating in a country does not require you to have a physical presence anymore, just "meaningful ties".

The British disagreed with their Empire breaking up, but it did anyway. Nor was Soviet leadership capable of keeping power through force despite controlling the military. Or perhaps we should as Gaddafi how it's going?

Nations are held together by a nebulous thing called legitimacy. Totalitarianism is a system where the state's legitimacy is absolute: it can do whatever it pleases. The other end of the spectrum is constitutionalism, where the state earns legitimacy by safeguarding the interests of its citizens. Nowadays we see an emergence of a third "pole", where a state's legitimacy depends from not just how it treats its citizens but also from how it behaves as a part of the international community. We are seeing the rise of an world system, a "city of nations", so to say. Sadly, just as humans are prone to self-centered megalomania, so are our social systems. Thus we should expect jealous attempts to claim "their" people's loyalty through, for example, nationalism and censorship.

Of course the irony is that a properly working world system will be a far safer place with more opportunity than the violent chaos of ages past for nations, just like a nation is a safer place with more opportunity than a jungle for humans. But that doesn't stop people from bitterly complaining how they're robbed by taxes, even as the only reason they have any income to tax besides whatever berries they managed to grap while running from lions is the very infrastructure maintained by said taxes. And of course would-be tyrants see their window of opportunity slipping away, and have every reason to delay the inevitable as long as possible by stirring up trouble and creating resentment. They'll fail, but time will tell how long it'll take.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[scamper_22]

This has little to do with Canadian Content. Most Canadians are well passed the 'Canadian Content' and tend to consume regular popular TV shows. I can't recall the last time cultural influence from 'America' was even an issue (except for maybe Quebec).

You will notice this comes from Ontario. Bell and Rogers have a huge presence here. As does the film and media industry.

It is about jobs and corporate welfare. This government has been very big on trying to create/contain jobs. Just today, Ontario wants to contract out the OLG (Ontario Lottery and Gaming) to Bell or Rogers. Throw that into job creation and containment schemes in the auto sector, green energy...

Jobs might very well be a good goal, but I generally hope subsidies work better than these schemes.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[vux984]

Likewise, the Canadian government is not just impotent but incompetent to think they could actually control foreign entities

Of course they can. They can block netflix traffic at the canadian border.

And if netflix operates servers within canada, then those will be subject to the laws of canada.

Seems to me Canada can effectively regulate netflix for "canadian content requirements" if it wishes.

Whether this is 'good for canada' or "good for the internet" remains open questions, but it would be consistent with the regulation in place already for broadcast / cable tv, and the idea that they can't do it for select large internet streaming services is ridiculous. They most certainly can - half the work is done for them.

Due to licensing agreements for the content, major streamers already "arbitrarily" limit and restrict what is available in different companies, so all the infrastructure to do it is already in place. Incorporating a layer of government regulation wouldn't be particularly onerous.

I disagree with the Canadian content requirements, (although I do endorse the governments efforts to promote Canadian content); so I'm against what the government is proposing here. However, that doesn't mean its impractical for them to do it.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[hjf]

Yeah, that's not how the world works. Sorry.

You see, you live in the USA. Your country is the biggest piece of shit when it comes to fair trade.

Why? Because you CANNOT compete. So you create bullshit regulations and trade barriers. But you go around the world bullying other countries to sign free trade agreements with you. So you can dump our countries with your crap - but we can't sell to you.

I'm from Argentina. We can't sell lemons to you (even though our lemons are cheaper than yours), and we can't sell beef to you (even though or beef is perfectly healthy). The US claims our beef is contaminated with Foot-and-mouth disease, so they won't accept it. All it takes is ONE case in my country for you to completely block us for years. Think about it for a little and figure it out. Have you? Let me explain: all it takes is for someone from the US to infect ONE of our cows - for the US to completely block trade for one of our main industries.

And the US works ACTIVELY so other countries CANNOT develop. For example, when Argentina was working on a 4K video codec, the US government, by way of "export controls" didn't allow nVidia to sell us more than 4 (four) Tesla units - for the whole country.

See? THAT is how the world works. Not with your libertarian free market theory.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[sumdumass]

Not when they control the nodes of access on the data network.

Well, at least in this case, they can enforce even against "meaningful ties" insomuch as if they do not play ball, they do not enter. Of course you could try a proxy and Tor but I imagine it would be a matter of time before that imposed risks on the user for circumventing their will.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[davydagger]

sounds like another country I know of, and live in currenty.

It starts with a U, and ends with a nited States of America.

Wait, lets say the entire concept of a constitution as this iron clad protection of rights is a silly concept because the world doesn't work that way.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[dryeo]

Would you agree that a human right cannot be a right if it trumps some other human right?

Don't be fucking stupid, all human rights conflict other rights. My right to swing my fist is trumped by your right to not get punched in the head. my right of passage is trumped by your right to privacy.
One of the governments jobs is to balance rights. Whether it is restricting my right to swing my fist in favour of your right not to get punched or my right to make a living vs your right to exploit me.
From your viewpoint you should have the right to kick weaker people around. As a society we've decided you shouldn't have the right to kick weaker people around. I'm sorry that we're infringing on your right to kick people around but some of us don't like being kicked around.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[rtb61]

For a start government creates the concept of ownership of property. All property is owned by the government, the people that create that government and that government just allots control of elements that it owns based upon rules created by the individuals that form that government. First and foremost is rule of self ownership a right right fought for with the deaths of millions for centuries and screw any asshat that puts property rights about personal rights. So the employee always takes precedence over their personal rights ahead of the employers property rights because the employee is not property. You apparently don't get that. Property rights are a privilege not a right and assigned by the government to benefit the majority. When that privilege not no longer benefits the majority than that privilege is taken away either voluntarily or as is the norm by lethal force due to the nature of the psychopaths and narcissists who routinely abuse property privileged and try to extend to include ownership and control of persons via extortion or slavery.

Re:Government doesn't get it.

[Rakarra]

By explicitly using the phrase "government," you are using a much different definition of human right than other people use. If a gang sweeps through the jungle with machetes to eliminate the Tutsis, the Tutsis' human rights are violated. If Boko Haram kidnaps a school-full of girls, those girls' human rights have been violated. Those rights are seen as inalienable, a right that you are entitled to just for being human. If the FBI violates your human rights, they are just as violated as if the local KKK do it, or your neighbor does it. That's why what falls under "human right" is pretty limited.

I would be angy too...

[Dj Stingray]

...if my country lost the earnings from Trailer Park Boys!

Wouldn't it be nice...

[RhettLivingston]

if these new media companies would simply stop their feed to Ontario IPs for a week just to make the point for once?

Re:Wouldn't it be nice...

[Ender Wiggin 77]

Agreed! And I'm based in Ontario. I suppose it is a coincidence that Rogers, the cable monopoly, is launching a streaming content service (movies, sports, etc) called Shomi that competes directly with Netflix. Rogers has too much influence with govt and needs to be broken up.

Re:Wouldn't it be nice...

[TheRecklessWanderer]

No Rogers are our friends. Everything is awesome!!

An overregulated province anyway...

[StandardCell]

Ontario is so overregulated that actions like this are practically ingrained in the culture of bureaucrats.

The government has a monopoly on all liquor sales. You aren't even allowed to buy certain cough medicines unless there is a licensed pharmacist on premises, even though while they're busy in the back you can just grab the stuff off the shelf. All stores MUST be closed on certain statutory holidays even if there are people willing to work those days, and the store is fined heavily if it opens anyway.

All of this is, of course, theatrics designed to garner the perception of an effective government while the Ontario government debt has risen by a third or $90B over the last five years alone. And they're worried about regulating foreign OTT services? I predict spectacular failure as it has been for the longest time in the province.

Re:Ontario == China

[Anonymous Coward]

When users try to visit a blocked site they are met with a screen politely asking them not to go to the website?

Re:And all movies MUST be subtitled in French

[ZipK]

And all movies MUST be subtitled in French.

Subtitled? French first! All movies must be in French, and may, if you ask nicely (and in French), be subtitled in other languages.

A tepid defence

[quantaman]

I think regulating Google and Netflix is a really bad idea but I think there's a defensible motive in trying to promote Canadian content and defend Canadian content providers.

I'm not sure Americans really understand what it's like for smaller countries who lack the population or money to compete with American media productions. People get so much culture from television that it's hard to maintain a national identity when there's a US megaphone next door that dominates mass media. In some ways a well functioning film industry is as important as a military. Just look at what's happening in Ukraine, the rebellion is most certainly not fuelled by East Ukrainians, however it would be hard for Russia to do what it's doing without the support of an East Ukrainian minority who feels closer to Russia and is scared by Kiev. Almost certainly Russia's game would be much more difficult if Ukraine had a mass media strong enough to forge a strong national identity in East Ukraine.

That being said I'm not sure how this works on the Internet, but smaller countries do have a reason to worry about getting swamped by culture from American websites.

Re:A tepid defence

[dryeo]

This is why the CBC and National Film Board of Canada are supposed to exist. If you want Canadian content, you can tune into the CBC or go to their free streaming music service etc and Netflix can carry the NFB catalog. Unluckily our government is starving these institutions out of ideology.

Re:A tepid defence

[strikethree]

I think regulating Google and Netflix is a really bad idea but I think there's a defensible motive in trying to promote Canadian content and defend Canadian content providers.

I'm not sure Americans really understand what it's like for smaller countries who lack the population or money to compete with American media productions. People get so much culture from television that it's hard to maintain a national identity when there's a US megaphone next door that dominates mass media.

Why does any of this matter? If your "national identity" is not strong enough to withstand the culture of another area, then your "national identity" was not unique or strong enough to justify its own existence.

I live in a foreign country and yet my "culture" is my own. There are very few cultural things here that are better than from my home country. The ones that are better, I integrate. The ones that are not, are ignored.

For example, one of the cultural things here that are superior to EVERYWHERE else I have ever been is the bathroom/restroom/toilet area. Everything in the bathroom is ceramic and tile. They have a bidet and toilet paper. When it is time to clean the bathroom, you merely spray water everywhere... and it all drains nice and neat into a drain. So very clean. So very spacious. So very awesome. Do I feel defensive that my own country does not have the same setup and feel the need to defend my own country? Hell no! When I come home, I am getting my bathroom remodeled to emulate the bathrooms here. So very practical.

National Identity? Screw that. Take what works best and run with it.

Re:An American's opinion

[quantaman]

Not to sound harsh, but Canada is a shithole and I would move to North Korea before I'd consider going up north.

Some people think Canadians are extraordinarily nice for how we deal with people like this, the truth is we simply have different ways of dealing with problems.

Consider the topic of justice and how to deal with bad people. The US is big into angry retributions and capital punishment, making sure people are punished harshly and everybody knows it.

Canada on the other hand simply tries to put bad people in a place where they don't bother anyone, and when someone does have to be punished we don't talk about it as much. In fact we're big believers in rehabilitation. Quite often we'll give the guilty something they really really want, hoping that in time they'll realize how terrible it is and discover the error of their ways.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand your anger and I'm sorry, we both know the US has been responsible for some terrible things, global warming, the Iraq War, NSA spying, etc, the list goes on for a while.

But sending Justin Beiber was definitely overkill.

There is nothing wrong with your television set.

[ColdWetDog]

Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to – The Outer Limits.

Just a bit before their time.

Cancon... feh.

[dskoll]

I'm Canadian and I'm completely fed up with Can-Con rules here. CBC Radio is pretty decent, but CBC TV is crap. If Canadian TV producers wanted Canadians to watch Canadian shows, here's an idea: Try making good shows once in a while.

(Funnily enough, my favourite TV channel is... TVO (TV Ontario), which is funded in part by the Ontario government, and which produces excellent kids' shows and great adults' shows like The Agenda. But for the most part, Canadian shows are crap, apart from documentaries and a few comedy shows, and the shows produced by private broadcasters are usually much worse than the ones produced by public broadcasters.)

Re:And all movies MUST be subtitled in French

[ColdWetDog]

I'm French! How do you think I got this outrageous accent?

Re:So who's worst???

[dryeo]

This is Rogers/Bell pushing the government to over regulate. At least TW/Comcast are cheap, have high bandwidths, high caps and better customer service compared to Rogers/Bell.