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Utilities Should Worry; Rooftop Solar Could Soon Cut Their Profit

Lucas123 writes A study by the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory predicts that distributed rooftop solar panel installations will grow from 0.2% market penetration today to 10% by 2022, during which time they're likely to cut utility profits from 8% to 41%. Using those same metrics, electricity rates for utility customers will grow only by as much as 2.7% over the next eight years. By comparison, the cost of electricity on average rose 3.1% from 2013 to 2014. The study was performed for the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy under the U.S. Department of Energy. One of the main purposes of the study was to evaluate measures that could be pursued by utilities and regulators to reduce the financial impacts of distributed photovoltaics.

18 of 517 comments (clear)

  1. Really? by Barny · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And you think the utilities will suffer because of this? Here in Australia power companies have just started bringing in (opt-in for now) billing at different rates for different times of the day for all a house's power. They will simply make day-time power prices stay the same and increase prices for night-time usage, passing the loss on to customers as they always have.

    Quite naive to think a company would accept the losses themselves.

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    /me sighs
    1. Re:Really? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look at Germany. Solar has made coal and nuclear unprofitable. They were replacing all the old coal plants with new, more efficient ones, but have now cancelled many of them and will simply reduce capacity. Even the new ones are unlikely to make any money now.

      I don't think utilities can stop this happening. They will die kicking and screaming but ultimately the industry must shrink.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Really? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the whole thing may either turn around or at least shift toward day-time electricity being cheaper simply because of basic economy principles, not because of some malicious intent.

      We should stop pretending that there is anything like a "Law of Supply and Demand" when it comes to energy.

      And if you want proof of "malicious intent"...

      http://thinkprogress.org/clima...

      http://www.tulsaworld.com/news...

      http://www.deseretnews.com/art...

      The Koch Brothers (and others) are pushing these "solar tariff", sun tax and surcharge laws all across the country. The rationale in their advertisements has varied from place to place, but generally it's "Solar energy is costing us money so people who use solar energy should pay double, one way or the other, because screw you, that's why". And yes, it even applies to solar which is not on the grid. So if you want to set up some solar panels to augment your daytime energy use and maybe a battery for night time, be prepared to pay this new tariff because of the Koch Brothers and their representatives at Americans For Prosperity

      They're determined to send a message: "If you think you can leave us and go back to your mother, think again sweetie, or maybe you'll run into another door."

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Do you even know why?
      > Germany's CO2 emissions grew for several years after implementation of these policies.

      Seems like you have a narrative that isn't universally agreed upon.

      When I google for "german co2 emissions" I find a number of articles that offer a different explanation for the current situation. They put the blame on Fukushima, saying that the rise in CO2 corresponds with the decommissioning of 8 out of Germany's 17 reactors in the post-fukushima hysteria. They say that solar has primarily replaced what was formerly nuclear with the difference being made up by increased coal that was previously scheduled to come online hence increased CO2.

      While AmiMoJo is probably wrong about solar making coal and nuclear unprofitable, it seems the weird taxation is really just an indirect way of paying for solar to replace nuclear rather than for solar to replace coal.

    4. Re:Really? by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference being that nobody needed buggy whips anymore. People here in Germany still need electricity at night.

      Because of the way the law is written, solar cell owners are allowed to use the grid as a battery. Their electricity consumption/production is not billed instantly but averaged, so that someone with enough excess solar power during the day doesn't have to pay anything for grid power during the night.

      The coal, gas and nuclear plants have to vary their production to take up the slack when wind and solar go down, which is expensive, and it becomes more expensive the more renewables there are. At some points it becomes unprofitable to build, and this is where we are now.

    5. Re:Really? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      that legal system for selling electricity was jury-rigged

      That phrase... I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Germany is in the middle of the transition. There are still 10 years to go. Things can get a bit extreme at times, but it's basically working really well. Short term price increases (still not the most expensive in Europe) and increased CO2 in exchange for being nuclear free, down heavily on coal and gas, and up massively on renewables by 2024. It also makes Germany the world leader in renewables, so German companies are getting all that business overseas too.

      Luckyo, you seem to have either not understood or ignored my reply last time, or maybe you just feel butthurt that your cool nuclear tech is being pushed out in favour of hippy windmills and solar panels. I'm sorry you feel that way.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:Really? by Luckyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      France, just across the border from Germany, get about 70-80% of energy from nuclear. So much for "tarnished reputation" being a factor in producing power.

      And frankly, it's not a "fantasy". The concept of wind power providibg significant amount of energy is feasible. The problem is the technology required, which we do not possess yet. My problem is that instead of investing in the technology, Germany invested into massively implementing technology not yet ready for the mass implementation. Almost all of their problems are essentially symptoms of this aspect of the issue.

    7. Re:Really? by icebike · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This expense of varying their production is offset by fuel savings, and is largely FUD spewed by the facilities.

      They have been varying their production throughout the day for over a hundred years. It's what electric utilities do.

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      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  2. Oh dear - money grows on trees... by Bruce66423 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Utilities are boring because they do a simple job which generates small but predictable profits. Therefore investors put their money into them in the expectation that they will remain boring.

    When a new development comes along that destroys their business model, one of two things will happen; they will increase their prices, or they will go out of business. Note that 'the government taking them over' is a subset of 'they will increase their prices'. The service that they provide; a reliable baseload supply and a safe network to distribute electricity HAVE TO BE PAID FOR. At the moment those costs are hidden in the average cost of a kWh. If private solar power reduces the average demand some of the time, the average cost of a kWh will have to be increased, or the other features be recognised and paid for.

    Ladies and gentlemen, there is no such thing as a free lunch, despite politicians pretending otherwise for several thousand years.

  3. Generation and distribution by jbeaupre · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Utilities actually have two businesses: Generation and distribution. We pay one bill and conflate the two. Solar just makes it clear they are different.

    With home solar increasing, utilities will just invest less and less in generation. The transition is pretty gradual, so they can adapt just fine. Profits from generation will decline ... life will go on. But only if we accept that distribution also needs to be paid for.

    If and until home power storage also becomes economical, homes are still going to need to connect to the grid. That infrastructure will need to be paid for. It's going to be tacked onto the utility bill. In the past, we subsidized small users by paying by the kwh. Now we have to decide if connection fees are more appropriate. That's what the debate is going to turn into.

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    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  4. Re:Or they will simply get it banned or restricted by CanEHdian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Plus there are cases of outright bans on some kinds of solar setups (I cant find a cite right now but there have been cases where people have wanted to install solar panels and a battery bank or whatever and completly disconnect from grid power but have been prohibited from doing so by state and local laws)

    What happens if you don't pay your power bill and they come and disconnect you themselves? If they come and see the solar and have been instructed by company brass to forgo the disconnection in those cases, let the poor (that DO get disconnected) and their advocates know... won't take long before that changes.

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    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
  5. Smoke Screen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most people have this preconceived notion of 'what we need' and we in the first world are all in reality 'rich'. I live on less than minimum wage in a cold climate, and built a 750+- square foot home, off-grid with a design based on 2KWh/day but can generate 4+ most sunny days... With exception to some industrial/manufacturing facilities, if you have some southern exposure you can live off-grid and it be very affordable, it's just a question of changing our wasteful power consumption habits or paying more in solar setup.

    Stuff I run, Fridge, laptop, inet, security cameras, microwave, digital pressure cooker, washer, well pump, dishwasher(no heat cycle), typical household tools... $150 backup gas generator if it's necessary(hasn't been). Wood stove for heat, cooking.

    Oh, also I have a utility pole 20 feet away, but SKIPPING the required taxes/connect fees and forced 'certified labor' to actually get electricity paid for more than half my solar setup...

    If the general home owning public ever 'wakes up', utilities should fear for their profits, tho. I think most people are imprisoned in condo/apts and city life, so it's not like they are going to go out of business.

    1. Re:Smoke Screen by Tokolosh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wood stove for heat, cooking.

      That wood stove is generating more pollution than 100 grid-connected houses, I wager. If every home had one, the forests would be gone and the air quality worse than China.

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      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
  6. Re:cut utility profits from 8% to 41% by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Rooftop solar flattens the daytime peak and cuts down on the maximum capacity needed to be produced and transmitted (along wires of course, but that's the word) from other places, so it does eventually pay for itself even when the money thrown at it is excessive. A bit of a problem is that throwing excessive amounts of money around builds political influence, but that's not a solar problem per se. Stop throwing money at it and they'll still be some takeup, especially in areas where utilities are indulging in excessive price gouging.

  7. Re:In Soviet USA by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Sane electricity prices would include a base rate for infrastructure and reserve capacity, and a cost per usage. Most people just pay the usage fee. I

    It makes sense to me, if I have a PV roof, I still pay a base rate to the electric company to maintain the lines so I can have electricity when my roof is not generating.

    You, on the other hand, should see someone about all that irrationality.

  8. Not a point source by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With respect, take a look at a chart showing air pressure across your continent. Consider what it means in terms of wind, especially since windmills are spread out quite a bit now. The "wind is always blowing" thing is reality on the scale of a continental grid, even an electricity grid in Europe since there are such large interconnections between countries. If you look at a North American air pressure chart and the size of the US+Canada grid it's even more obvious.
    I've never had anything to do with windmills and don't even like them much but I'm sick of all the politically motivated bullshit attacking anything in power generation that is seen as remotely "green", and that's why I called the GP poster to task for his bullshit.

  9. One last thing by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In general, that is indeed correct, and how grid is generally balanced. But as with all engineering problems, devil is in the details. And details make his model utterly ridiculous and completely unfeasible. The problems here is DISTANCE and LOCALIZATION OF PRODUCTION.

    So you are arguing against widely distributed small generators on that basis? They provide LOCALIZATION OF PRODUCTION by their very nature, so I suggest you be a bit more honest about your reason for objecting to them.

    As nuclear is far more reliable

    It's a base load solution with a large capacity and is very expensive to turn off and on for peaks where you need a bit more capacity. Anybody who raves on about "one true energy" whether it is solar, wind, nuclear or coal is either selling something or has been conned - the answer is a mix of energy sources. It's cheaper to fire up a gas turbine (or several) than an entire coal or nuclear base load unit if you don't need the full capacity of a base load unit. Although wind has a lot of drawbacks it has a niche. Although photovoltaics are very expensive they now also have a place and are making a positive impact.

  10. Re:It's energy and there are pockets in Washington by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Banks don't put up loans for nuclear plants. Guess where the interest free loans and insurance comes from. Solar and wind are peanuts in comparison.