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Speed Cameras In Chicago Earn $50M Less Than Expected

countach44 writes that (in the words of the below-linked article) "Chicagoans are costing the city tens of millions of dollars — through good behavior." The City of Chicago recently installed speed cameras near parks and schools as part of the "Children's Safety Zone Program," claiming a desire to decrease traffic-related incidents in those area. The city originally budgeted (with the help of the company providing the system) to have $90M worth of income from the cameras — of which only $40M is now expected. Furthermore, the city has not presented data on whether or not those areas have become safer.

30 of 398 comments (clear)

  1. Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate driver's speed. It is virtually impossible to challenge these, and many municipalities already do this with red light and speed cameras.

    Also, can we stop pretending these are about anything other than revenue generation?

    1. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by sinij · · Score: 3, Informative
    2. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by MikeBabcock · · Score: 3, Informative

      The red light camera issue is easily Googled, many municipalities have found that the companies installing these have turned down the timing between amber and red in order to catch more people running the red.

      http://www.motorists.org/red-l...

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    3. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes:
      http://www.realclearscience.co...
      http://www.nbc-2.com/story/122...
      http://www.youngcons.com/texas...

      All 3 of those were beaten with MATH as in, irrefutable proof that the camera was wrong and setup to intentionally give tickets to people that did not break the law. (unless the software itself is hopelessly flawed)
      biatch

    4. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by sinij · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >>>You're not even supposed to run the amber, never mind the red.

      Incorrect. When you see light turning yellow, you are suppose to stop when it is safe to do so, otherwise proceed through the intersection. If you are a municipality concerned about safety - increase timer on yellow light.

      Instead, exact opposite happens - municipality concerned with a budget shortfalls decreases yellow light timer to generate additional red light ticket revenue. As a result, many people slam on the brakes increasing instances of rear-end collisions.

    5. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The amber light gets decreased, making intersection less safe. Does it matter what party to this money-grabbing public-private sector collusion actually carried out the work?

    6. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by seven+of+five · · Score: 3, Informative

      The city of chicago has already been accused of doing this. Got any other bright ideas?

    7. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >>>You're not even supposed to run the amber, never mind the red.

      Incorrect. When you see light turning yellow, you are suppose to stop when it is safe to do so, otherwise proceed through the intersection. If you are a municipality concerned about safety - increase timer on yellow light.

        Instead, exact opposite happens - municipality concerned with a budget shortfalls decreases yellow light timer to generate additional red light ticket revenue. As a result, many people slam on the brakes increasing instances of rear-end collisions.

      Yep, I remember years back when some of these companies and cities were getting sued by the insurance companies for making the accident rate go up at these intersections.

      I've only had one cop ever give me crap for running the yellow, in Chicago of course. He must have not felt like doing any paperwork that day because he dropped it when I made it clear that I'd take it to court if he wrote a ticket over such a spurious thing.

    8. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You could also decrease speed limit to something unreasonable. For example, 15mph and issue tickets at 21mph.

      You can also hide a max speed sign behind something, like a bush, and install it in otherwise higher speed zone.

      You can also install speed trap on the down-slope road, where drivers would naturally speed up without any conscious input.

      You can also offer "early payment" discounts on tickets, where if you pay and plead guilty your fine reduced to the point of not worth the time fighting it.

      You can establish a ticket challenge procedure that would conflict with working hours, making it logistically difficult for people to challenge.

      You can intentionally mail tickets to old addresses, then rake up late fees and interest.

      Oh, all of these happened in one or another municipality at some point in time.

    9. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Easy solution, STOP letting for profit companies run these things. If a community wants red light cameras, they can buy them, install them, and manage them all under heavy citizen oversight.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Life is stranger than fiction.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    11. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And then those same elected officials are subject to calls to cut taxes, but keep public services the same. Want to be reelected? It's difficult if you voted against lowering taxes and your opponent promises that he won't. But no one notices when you make a decision that raises revenue at the expense of safety.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by HeckRuler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you are a municipality concerned about safety - increase timer on yellow light.

      It's not quite that simple. This has to do with how people learn a system and react to it.
      You have a population that expects a warning a certain time before a condition applies. If you fiddle with the timing of when the warning comes up, the population will eventually learn the new timing and adjust to it. In the meantime they will either be surprised at a change in either direction. But shortening the light is more like "HOLY FUCK it's already red BRAKE SLAM" as opposed to "huh, I could have made it through this light".

      But it's not quite that simple. You also have people from out of town that have learned their own light timing system and have an expectation when they visit you. You can essentially treat these people as people who haven't learned the new timing yet. And this is a bad thing because whenever you have two actors working on different systems they have different expectations and they both expect the other guy to do something different. We all expect to drive on the right side of the road in the USA, and we all have a general idea of how long a yellow light is supposed to last. It should be a rock-solid standard.

      But it's not quite that simple. Even though there's a system and people learn it eventually, once it becomes a note-worthy thing and people start talking about it or worse, it becomes news, then you have the added factor of people preemptively stopping sooner or later. The benefit of having longer yellow lights is annulled if people know they're given a longer yellow light. Now you have people that haven't learned the new system, people who have learned the new system, and people who are trying to game the new system based on what they've heard.

      Welcome to sociology where the factors are endless, the system is beyond our ken, and the points are billions of dollars and literal corpses.

      I'd prefer if they didn't change the timing.

    13. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by CimmerianX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't increase time on the yellow.... you let the yellow turn red on the same timer, but you leave both directions red for 2 seconds just to ensure the intersection is clear before showing a green light. That's how you make it safer.

    14. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Informative

      If it still reduces accidents as well as red light running, does it matter if 'more' people run the yellow? The goal of traffic signals is safe intersections and driving, not a 'Simon Says' game.

      Note: Link provided not for unbiased site, but because site does have links to reputable studies.

      I DID read a biased FAQ by a red light company. Note how they pound the cost of accidents in life and property damage, citing studies. But when it comes to how red light cameras effect the crash rate? 'If red-light and speed safety cameras reduced by an additional 25%...'. Uncited supposition.

      Fact is, the 'typical' fatal red-light running is a person going through an 'aged' red, at high speed, while drunk. Not the type to be worried about a camera at that point. Most accidents involving 'fresh' reds are minor, comparable to the rear-end collisions that increase due to the cameras(google should give studies easily).

        I apologize for not linking a study, but I have to head out.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    15. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Minwee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't increase time on the yellow.... you let the yellow turn red on the same timer, but you leave both directions red for 2 seconds just to ensure...

      ...that drivers will feel safe going through the intersection after the light turns red.

      It's a nice idea, but the universe will always build a better idiot.

    16. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      From the actual tribune article.
      Correction, October 20, 2014: This post originally misstated that Chicago's government had reduced the duration of the city's yellow lights. The timing of the lights has remained consistent overall but can vary in individual instances due to electrical fluctuations. In February the city changed its policy to begin giving tickets in some cases when, due to fluctuation, the yellow signal lasted less than three seconds.

      And the statement is plausible, according to the traffic engineers I work with,

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    17. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by Moof123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are established laws/standards for how long a yellow should be given the speed limit of the road. Municipalities have been caught violating their own laws/standards to increase revenue. A yellow light needs to be long enough to include a normal reaction time, and still leave a safe stopping distance. The best option for safety is to abide by established standards and law for yellow light times. Yellow lights should be predictable, not too short and not too long, or you stand to cause accidents at intersections that do not obey the norms.

      The real issue here is that yellow lights have become a tool to tweak revenue for cash strapped towns, cities, and the companies they contract with. I can see it being a very easy trap to get caught in when you are facing closing schools and delaying pot hole repairs, but it should be off limits. The rules of the road should be optimized for safety and efficiency, not plugging budget holes.

    18. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by neoritter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You're missing the important aspect of the point. Increased yellow light timer, means increase span of time to determine whether it's safe to proceed through the intersection. Whether that means people figure they have more time to get through the intersection is moot. They have more time to decide on a safe course of action before one HAS to be made. So yes, it is that simple, and you've over thought the issue.

    19. Re:Easy to solve - calibrate them to overestimate by dunkindave · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry to inject facts into your soap box, but here is the US Government Department of Transportation manual:

      Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices

      The definition of what a yellow light means is in section 4D.04, and the federal rules for yellow lights is in section 4D.26.

      For the definition of yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is thereby warned that the related green movement or the related flashing arrow movement is being terminated or that a steady red signal indication will be displayed immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection.

      For the minimum and maximum timings: A yellow change interval should have a minimum duration of 3 seconds and a maximum duration of 6 seconds. The longer intervals should be reserved for use on approaches with higher speeds.

  2. This is good by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It proves the cameras are working, and people are speeding less. What's the problem? In an ideal world, the cameras would never go off, and never issue a ticket.

    1. Re:This is good by mikelieman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point of the cameras was revenue, not traffic safety. They've failed at their intended goal, and I don't see evidence for attributing it to traffic safety. The only person who benefited is the vendor.

      And that's before the court challenges. Doesn't "Due Process" ensure that the accused can say, "That's faked, Photoshop. The network and servers are hacked, and PROVE THEY ARE SECURE."

      Ever seen a municipal vendor who could certify under penalty of perjury complete compliance with all applicable law, regulation and policy?

      --
      Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    2. Re:This is good by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It proves the cameras are working, and people are speeding less.

      No, it does not prove that. Another possible explanation is that people were never speeding much in the first place. They may have overestimated the potential revenue.

  3. It is a common thing right now in other cities by kaladorn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Ottawa Public Library is having a significant budgetary shortfall due to a reduction in late fees.

    The sad thing is that these entities have integrated punitive fines into their standard funding expectations and financial plans.

    I think that sort of thinking needs to be scorned. It is a poor way to manage an institution. You don't want your model to be 'well, we will depend on and be incentivized to encourage people to break the rules we claim we want them to follow'. It's a rather ethically laughable situation.

    --
    -- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
  4. But the speed camera folks are laughing .... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Informative
    ... laughing all the way to the bank. All these companies that contract with municipalities add very careful clauses into their contract. Whether it is the incompetence of the city managers/lawyers/politicians or whether they are actively colluding with the companies is a matter of debate. But the side clauses will make people's blood boil when they come to know of them.

    Most likely the camera companies have minimum guarantee payments, will not let changes to traffic lights and timings that would reduce both accidents and fines etc. There was the fiasco with parking spaces, that makes it impossible for Chicago to create more parking spaces without paying the private company for their "loss of revenue". The private bridge owner of the bridge between Detroit and Windsor, Canada is suing to block the building of any new bridge. When turnpike operations are sold to such private companies, they have clauses preventing the improvement of alternative roads owned by the state or city that would divert traffic away from the turnpike.

    The great American rip-off is the private companies taking over tax funded infrastructure and then preventing improvements to alternatives, and extracting rent. I think the only way to stop them is to sue such companies for criminal conduct and bad faith and have the original contract declared null and void. Two bit politicians coming into office for a single two year term should not be able to burden all the citizens for eternity to such contracts.

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  5. Re:Actually, they're *saving* chicago that much. by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some states have laws against small communities enforcing speed laws on state or interstate highways, so that the town doesn't become a revenue-generating speed trap.

    --
    All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
  6. Goal Should Be Zero Revenue by jratcliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a big fan of both red light and speed cameras, so long as it's clear that the goal, and the only goal, is to improve traffic safety by getting people to abide by speed limits* and obey traffic lights. The ideal scenario would be one in which the cameras generated zero revenue at all, because everybody was following the law.

    *I'll be the first to say that speed limits on highways are too low, I'm talking about areas where cars have to share the road with pedestrians and bicyclists.

  7. Voting Machines by offrdbandit · · Score: 5, Funny

    Clearly these aren't manufactured by the same company that makes Chicago's voting machines.

  8. Re:OT: ":Fine money should be burned by Moof123 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How about use it to fund public defenders? Those guys are always getting a raw deal (as are their clients), and it would create a bit of a stabilizing feedback loop. More fines means you need more defense lawyers, a win-win. Or have we given up on having a fair legal system?

  9. Jesus Christ, READ TFA! by BUL2294 · · Score: 5, Informative
    I live in Chicago... Read TFA--not red light cams, but SPEED CAMERAS!

    First off, because of state law, the speed cameras can only issue a ticket for going 6+ over the limit. So, 25 in a 20 school zone, or 35 in a 30 "near a park" zone is OK. Second, the 6-10 MPH over the limit is a $35 ticket. BFD. Only when you do 11+ over the limit (e.g. 41 in a 30), that's when it shoots up to $100. Finally, speed cameras are NOT allowed on Lake Shore Drive, Lower Wacker, and (obviously) Interstates.

    On top of that, because of state law, the city had to paint "SAFETY ... ZONE" on the street in each lane, along with putting up extra speed limit signs with "PHOTO ENFORCED", by every camera installation, on that street and on all intersecting streets...

    --
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