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Scientists Optimistic About Getting a Mammoth Genome Complete Enough To Clone

Clark Schultz writes The premise behind Jurassic Park just got a bit more real after scientists in South Korea said they are optimistic they can extract enough DNA from the blood of a preserved woolly mammoth to clone the long-extinct mammal. The ice-wrapped woolly mammoth was found last year on an island off of Siberia. The development is being closely watched by the scientific community with opinion sharply divided on the ethics of the project.

42 of 187 comments (clear)

  1. huh? by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't understand... what would be unethical about this?

    1. Re:huh? by laie_techie · · Score: 2

      I don't understand... what would be unethical about this?

      Study up on how cloning works. You take a zygote (fertilized egg), then wipe its genetic code, replacing it with the desired genetic code. The ethics come into play int he wiping stage. If you believe that life begins at conception, you could easily view wiping the genetic code from a zygote as killing the (potential) life.

    2. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't understand... what would be unethical about this?

      Forcing an Asian elephant to be a "mother" to another species, one that might harm her.

      Forcing solitary existence on what appears to be a highly social species.

    3. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, yeah, but you wouldn't be using a human zygote for this. Seems like only the 3 craziest members of PETA in the world would have an ethical problem with this...

    4. Re:huh? by StikyPad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's relevant to, but not the full story of, the ethical controversy over human cloning, but we're talking about mammoths. I don't think anyone's proposing that we insert mammoth DNA into human eggs.

    5. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Posting anonymously since I've voted on other posts: I don't think 99% of people would care that non-human cloning it erases a potential life. We end actual animal lives all the time for food, sport, or simply out of carelessness.

      Concerns about cross-species surrogacy (that could kill the mother, a species with problems of its own), creating social animals with no living members of the species to acculturate it, and of course, spending millions of dollars that could (arguably) be better spent preserving extant species all seem like more likely ethical concerns.

    6. Re:huh? by Matheus · · Score: 2

      The funny thing is most anti-cloning people don't have the slightest clue about that part of the process. They might protest that if they did! Most of the complaints I've heard are more of the "You shouldn't be playing God" on the religious side vs. "You shouldn't be introducing extinct species into our modern biosphere (Jurassic Park)" on the science side. I really haven't heard much banter that bothers with the specifics of how this is all accomplished.

      I say we really piss people off and clone this beasty in a human zygote in a really large human womb.. <cough> I mean Axlotl tank.

    7. Re:huh? by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You've never eaten eggs? What do you think eggs are?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:huh? by Dunbal · · Score: 2
      Apart from the "playing God" bit?

      Seriously I don't have a problem with it because our intentions are pretty good - we want to see if it can be done and we're curious about the animal. But I can see that some people especially the crazy fundies would get upset.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    9. Re:huh? by turp182 · · Score: 2

      Good question, do you eat eggs?

      I love chilled chicken embryo with all of the embryo's nutrients for my benefit, fried or scrambled.

      I also enjoy (and can tolerate) bovine mammary gland excretions with some milled and baked oats or corn (I'm a Kix kid).

      Ethics isn't questioned in these examples, they are food. What's worse, aborting chickens for fried eggs or taking the nutrition that was intended for a baby cow?

      I grew up raising a small number of cows and quite a few chickens for food. "Bessie" burgers will always be a fond memory. I played with her in the field, and then we butchered her and over a year, ate her. Circle of life.

      As for pets, humans are really good at dog and cat reproduction, so we should also be good at handling over-population issues with such as well. Such is a civilized society.

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    10. Re:huh? by wiredlogic · · Score: 2

      But I can see that some people especially the crazy fundies would get upset.

      A proper Jesus freak doesn't believe that animals have souls so there should be no ethical dilemma for them to get enraged over.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    11. Re:huh? by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's done daily by farmers everywhere. Where do you think mules come from?

    12. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      You have been misinformed.

      1. Commercial laying houses do NOT have roosters running around with the hens. This would be pointless and uneconomical. When you buy a dozen eggs from the store, there is a zero percent chance that they will be fertilized.

      2. My family eats fertilized eggs daily. I cannot remember the last time I saw a speck of blood in an egg.

      Blood specks have nothing to do with the egg being fertilized.

    13. Re: huh? by davidrgreenberg · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not blood. It's a protein spot. It's more common in brown eggs because they're harder to screen with a backlight to weed out those eggs, although the spot is harmless.

    14. Re: huh? by davidrgreenberg · · Score: 2

      Um, no. The ethical issues have nothing you do with this. They problem is bringing an animal into a world that no longer naturally supports it. So, it becomes only a lab curiosity with no ecological role. Plus, it's unknown how it would interact with the existing ecology were it to get into the wild.

    15. Re:huh? by h4x0t · · Score: 2

      The unethical bit is that they will likely fuck it up a few times and make abominations that are in constant pain until they put them down.

      Have you never read science fiction?

    16. Re:huh? by turp182 · · Score: 2

      When I was a kid the eggs had embryos. Nothing ruins a pancake breakfast like cracking an egg that has gestated for a week, with a partially formed fetus coming out. Happened a couple of times (we had 30+ hens and a rooster).

      I would make oatmeal instead at that point.

      My dad still keeps chickens, but he doesn't have a rooster so this isn't an issue anymore. He doesn't butcher them any longer, he just collects the unfertilized eggs.

      I loved raising chicks in the basement. I also enjoyed slaughter day, chickens actually do run pretty far with their heads removed (this was back in the early 1980s).

      I like that I know where meat comes from, and what it looks like to produce it. Butchering a pig was the messiest thing I've ever seen in terms of blood, hanging it from the barn door opening to drain out. And there was a large black kettle to render lard, I got to help stir and skim.

      Memories, and very fond ones. Shoot, I didn't have central heat until about the age of 13 (wood burning stove in the living room area).

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
  2. Ethics? by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2

    Ethics ?!? Hey, this could be better than bison burger.

    1. Re:Ethics? by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 3, Funny

      I hear wooly mammoth is a little gamy.

      20,000 years of freezer burn will do that I suppose.

    2. Re:Ethics? by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I want me a dodo. Apparently they were so tasty, the islanders couldn't bear to leave a single one living.

      I don't think so. According to the wiki, it probably wasn't humans eating the dodo to extinction (the meat was described as "tasteless" and pigeon was considered a superior game bird) but introducing predators (pigs, cats) to an environment where there hadn't been any before.

      As I understand it, the problem with the dodo is that there aren't any frozen carcasses from which to get intact DNA. I heard a carcass was found in a cave not too long ago, and was more preserved, but last I heard it was up in the air as to whether it could be done.

      As to the ethics, why not? We breed animals to be pets, how is this different? I'm told that there is only one species of ferret in the world, for instance, that can still fend for itself in the wild.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  3. Unethical? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm curious about why one would consider this unethical? That nature had her shot and declared these animals unfit for habitation on the earth, perhaps? That this could open the door to more widespread tampering with genetics? We interfere with the "natural order" all the time, most especially when it comes to our own comfort and survival. I'm sort of curious why people would suddenly start worrying about bringing extinct animals back to life. I'll admit I haven't given this a lot of thought yet, but my initial reaction is that it seems like a fascinating opportunity if we can pull it off.

    Maybe someone that opposes this on ethical grounds could enlighten me.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    1. Re:Unethical? by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 2

      A Woolly Mammoth killed my pappy.

    2. Re:Unethical? by kruach+aum · · Score: 2

      Because they are mentally deficient and equate high-roading with worth.

    3. Re:Unethical? by xigxag · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not saying I agree, but from a link in the article:

      Dr Herridge questioned "whether or not the justifications for cloning a mammoth are worth the suffering, the concerns of keeping an elephant in captivity, experimenting on her, making her go through a 22-month pregnancy, to potentially give birth to something which won't live, or to carry something which could be damaging to her. And all of those aspects... I don't think that they are worth it; the reasons just aren't there."

      --
      There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    4. Re:Unethical? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 4, Interesting

      - Intentionally creating a life from incomplete DNA which may not end up producing a complete, healthy, and happy animal.

      The whole point of the article is they're optimistic about extracting enough samples to get the complete DNA, so that's a non-issue.

      - Then using that animal for an endless barrage of scientific testing throughout its life.

      You phrased that to be inflammatory, while ignoring the realities of the situation. Elephants in zoos aren't subjected to some ridiculously invasive regimen and a mammoth wouldn't be either. They are very large, very powerful animals. You don't casually stick a needle into one of them. Invasive testing is something you keep to a minimum, because the animal is in a position to object when it's conscious, and sedating it is difficult and dangerous. So the "endless barrage" in question means a whole lot of stool and urine samples, and not so much with the vivisection.

      - Creating an animal that normally lives a social life and forcing upon it total isolation from its species.

      One hopes they would make more than one. And if they don't, the question becomes, how accepting of visibly different but roughly the right shape members is an elephant herd? If the answer is "accepting", then that's no problem. (And I'm curious to know the answer to that question.)

      - Forcing an elephant to give birth to another species and all the potential health/safety and emotional problems that could cause for the elephant.

      Either you're underestimating the power of motherly love, and she will accept her offspring regardless of its appearance, or you overestimate the attachment elephants have for their offspring, and she will reject an apparently "defective" offspring without trauma. I suspect she would accept her offspring. Baby elephants are actually quite hairy, as babies go, and get less hairy as they get older. If instead her baby gets furry, I don't think she'll object. As for health/safety, she'd be the best cared for pregnant elephant in history.

      Unless there's real, valuable science that can be done that will justify the potential traumas that could be caused, it seems like a dumb idea.

      This strikes me as one of those experiments that falls into the category of "we don't know; let's try it and find out." Is it real, valuable science? We have no idea. We might learn any number of things about genetics, gestation, fetal development, and a raft of other complicated biological things. Or we might learn nothing much. We won't know until we try it. I suspect developing elephant ultrasound will be useful elsewhere, if nothing else. Somebody will learn something, even if it's just engineering.

  4. obligatory Jurassic Park quote: by origin2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

    --- Dr. Ian Malcolm

    1. Re:obligatory Jurassic Park quote: by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2
      Dear Dr. Sapiens,
      • Thanks
      • Joe Smallpox

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  5. That's nothing by DumbSwede · · Score: 5, Funny

    North Korea just anounced they've already cloned one (and T-Rex as well).

  6. Re:Exciting! by sycodon · · Score: 2

    I look forward to a giant Wooly Mammoth rampaging down the streets of Seoul, knocking down buildings and stomping cars all while carrying some scantily clad hot women with his trunk and being chased by a little boy shouting "Giant Elephant!, Giant Elephant!".

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  7. Re:Realer? by cogeek · · Score: 2

    I think realer is the bestest choice of words in this article.

  8. Re:This will end well by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    ...Can we do this cloning at Fukishima? I hear it's quiet this time of year.

    Fantastic idea. I'm sure when the giant mutated god-mammoth/wolly-zilla discovers that our ancestors may have been responsible for it's species extinction all will be fine.

    Hopefully, unlike elephants, mammoths do forget.

  9. What would they taste like? by rleibman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We were around while these beasts roamed the earth, and may have had a hand in their disappearance to begin with. Given that our ancestors evolved to eat these animals, my personal theory is that Mammoth meat is perfect, and thus it's likely to be the tastiest meat there is. I for one, am looking forward to cloning enough of these that we could grow them for meat.

  10. Re:I can see the curiosity aspect.. by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can't you be spending your time doing something more productive?

    Consider that any successful experience in cloning anything adds to our knowledge base about cloning. By perfecting cloning, we can do a lot more than just bring back extinct species. We could, for example, grow entirely new organs cloned from your body to replace damaged or failing ones, organs that could be transplanted into you without fear of tissue rejection. Further, the practice of being able to reliably modify cells at the genetic level can lead to all sorts of other benefits in medicine, biology, and even far-flung fields as nanotechnology when you consider the scale you have to work in.

    The whole "can't you spend your time/money better" argument is pretty short-sighted when you consider the enormous ancillary benefits. It's like saying why bother going to the moon when you can spend money on Earth. But without that impetus, we might not have the very computers and Internet you're currently using to read this post, or lasers to correct your vision, or lightweight, strong materials used to make the planes you fly on, or the fuel cells used to power zero-emission vehicles, or...you get the idea.

    Stop thinking in checkers. Think chess. It's not the current move that matters; it's the move you make three moves from now that wins the game.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  11. Re:I can see the curiosity aspect.. by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sure, I get that. I guess I'm just wondering why a Mommoth, as opposed to, I dunno, a human, is so valuable in a cloning exercise.

    Part of the answer may be, you can make a lot of mistakes cloning a mammoth without people getting too upset.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  12. Elephants? by Moof123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems surreal that we are talking about resurrecting Mammoths while their close genetic kin are still in a pretty harsh decline. Perhaps we should be trying to store sequences of good cross section of the remaining elephants so that in some future century we can dust off the old thumb drives and bring them back with enough genetic diversity to properly re-introduce them somewhere.

    1. Re:Elephants? by Xest · · Score: 2

      Or we could just increase the policy of using attack helicopters to hunt down poachers. It's win-win, the pilots get first class training in finding targets in a vast landscape using various sensing equipment, and the poachers are given something real to worry about.

      Some poachers have even been using helicopters themselves so there's also ample scope for air defence training there for fast jets and such too.

      That way we don't have to worry about them going extinct (and the massive knock on effects to their ecosystem) in the first place. You're killing two birds with one stone- dealing with the poaching problem whilst getting your military some real training that simultaneously does something useful. Far better than classic contrived military exercises that often bare little resemblance to the real thing and just burn resources for not much benefit.

      This has been a very successful policy in the countries that have attempted it thus far, and it should be ramped up. Turn poachers from the hunter who hunts illegaly with overwhelming force into the hunted that is hunted legally with overwhelming force and they soon stop.

  13. Re:Imagine if it grows up and starts talking by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 2

    No problem so long as it says "Eat ME!"

  14. Super Soldiers... by Etherwalk · · Score: 2

    That's relevant to, but not the full story of, the ethical controversy over human cloning, but we're talking about mammoths. I don't think anyone's proposing that we insert mammoth DNA into human eggs.

    Sounds like a military project. (Not all militaries would be willing to try this, but some certainly would.)

  15. Re:Exciting! by Lotana · · Score: 2

    I shudder to think what this giant Wooly Mammoth intends to do with those scantily clad hot women...

  16. Re:Exciting! by Dave+Emami · · Score: 3, Funny

    I hope something comes of this.

    I predict at least one South Korean cavalry division mounted on war-mammoths.

    --

    "The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
  17. Passenger Pigeon will come first by Spy+Handler · · Score: 2

    A team called Revive & Restore is in the process of cloning the extinct passenger pigeon.

    They're getting close to finishing the passenger-pigeon DNA sequence. That's the easy part though, next they will have to inscribe the genome into a living cell and produce a viable embryo, and from that a living offspring.

    Keep in mind the passenger pigeon only became extinct in 1914, which is fairly recent compared to the wooly mammoth.

  18. Re:I can see the curiosity aspect.. by dbIII · · Score: 2

    Considering that most of the world economy relies on consumption so needs a lot of people for the rich and powerful to stay rich and powerful then I would suggest that your "they" have fuckall political power and are unlikely to ever get the resources to be a threat.
    Think about it - proposing something that is going to destroy the fortunes of both Republican and Democrat donors, not to mention the oil and gas profits of Russian kleptocrats and the export markets that fund the Chinese Communist Party. Which do you think is more likely to happen when "they" get serious - money for a secret lab or a cup of tea with Polonium stirred in?
    Have I expressed my opinion clearly enough to outline why I see your suggestion as unlikely to succeed?