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City of Toronto Files Court Injunction Against Uber

Sebolains writes: The city of Toronto in Ontario, Canada has filed a court injunction on Uber Canada Inc. today that requests for all operations in the city to cease. Uber has been operating there since 2012 without a license from the city, and so officials are concerned that Uber's operations pose a risk to both drivers and riders. How quickly this will happen, we don't know, but the city has asked the courts to be expedient in hearing this application.

23 of 169 comments (clear)

  1. Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by Amnenth · · Score: 4, Informative

    John Tory (the next mayor of Toronto) has made statements actually supporting Uber. Thing is, although he's been elected he hasn't taken office yet, so he's not quite in a position to act. Be interesting to see what happens when he takes the helm, though.

    1. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Funny

      The current Mayor doesn't support it? You'd think he'd be in favor of anything that would get him home safely from a hard night of drinking and smoking crack cocaine....

      There's Uber's motto: Hey, we've gotta be safer than driving under the influence.

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    2. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      There's Uber's motto: Hey, we've gotta be safer than driving under the influence.

      Canadian version: We've gotta be safer than driving under the influence, eh?

    3. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's called regulatory capture. Government initially regulated transportation for hire for legitimate safety reasons; over decades the regulatory agencies set up for this purpose were captured by the status quo. A balance ensued wherein the safety needs are mostly met and the established players don't have to worry about competition. Now there's a disruptive new player that doesn't want to play by the old rules; this annoys the established players along with the self-important bureaucrats that regulate them. Along the way we've lost sight of the legitimate concerns about safety. In the ideal world we would blow up the existing regulatory apparatus and replace it with a leaner version that would focus on the core mission of ensuring safety without interfering with the natural development of the market.

      The same story plays out in a multitude of different markets. George Will writes about it and other examples of crony capitalism/regulatory capture quite frequently. One day a politician will emerge that can actually explain this concept to the masses; this will be a rude surprise for people on both sides of the political aisle who are invested in the status quo. Think of a modern day version of Teddy Roosevelt's trust busting.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by JMJimmy · · Score: 2

      There's Uber's motto: Hey, we've gotta be safer than driving under the influence.

      Problem is that doesn't hold up in Toronto - we have designated driver services for them. I have to say, this is one particular case where I have to side with the city. The reasons they give are reasonable and justified with the exception of the protectionist crap for taxis. The insurance aspect is particularly important - I would not want to be in an accident with someone who only has a million dollars liability that has to cover themselves, the other driver, you, and anyone else injured.

    5. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by westlake · · Score: 2

      Nope. That was just the pretext for the power-grab.

      Grow up.

      There is a long, sordid, history of abuses associated with taxi and limousine services, tour buses and so on.

    6. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by thej1nx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Funny.

      But not as funny as pretending that somehow the drivers do NOT have valid driving licenses, or that there are some special inspection requirements that are not required for family cars, but should apply here. This is why lobbying is pure evil.

      What is next? Ban car pooling? Because it is only a matter of time till someone comes up with a popular "couchsurfing/airbnb" version of car pooling, and just generating revenue via registration & background verification fees and advertising.

    7. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by davester666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the regulations were initially put in place precisely for the stuff Uber is doing.

      Underinsured drivers [see accidents where Uber drivers are between "jobs", sorry you aren't covered].
      Vehicles not being inspected on a regular basis.
      No ongoing driver checks.
      Overcharging customers.
      Underpaying drivers.

      Then there is the whole death spiral of an unlimited number of drivers all trying to earn a living from a fixed number of clients.

      We have ALREADY gone through "Uber" before [only without the global central computer to maximize fee's and minimize payout]. It is exactly why taxi's are regulated now.

      Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

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    8. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by dave420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is a difference between sharing a journey which would happen anyway (and being compensated for fuel used, etc.) and someone actively earning a living from driving people around. If you can't see that maybe you should familiarise yourself with this subject before commenting? I know taxis suck in the US (I have no idea about Canada), but elsewhere they are good, and this Uber nonsense threatens to lower the quality massively, as well as put people at risk.

      There already *are* popular ride-sharing apps & websites out there, and they're perfectly legal, as they are organising ride-sharing, not people pretending to be professional taxis.

    9. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, and that difference is who is getting paid. That is literally the only difference.

      Joe Average has no incentive to drive 16+ hours a day. Joe Uber does. That means Joe Uber is going to get into more accidents, and requires a far higher level of skill to get the rate down to acceptable level. Furthermore, while it's of course nice to have cheap taxis, it also means that Joe Uber pretty much has to work those 16+ hours a day to make a living, and that's not so nice for everyone who shares the roads - and sidewalks, and occasionally a living room with a new hole in the wall - with him. So I, for one, wholeheartedly support limiting the supply to the level where Mr. Uber can go home after 8 hours and then mandating that he actually does just that rather than continues busting his ass at the expense of public safety.

      And when you drive through a city, the taxi drivers are always the biggest assholes, cutting people off and whatnot, even when they don't actually know where they are going.

      So do you think this situation would get better or worse by having a lot more and more desperate taxi drivers around?

      --

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    10. Re:Toronto Municipal Gov't divided by MarkvW · · Score: 2

      We have taxicab regulation because unregulated cab drivers rip off consumers.

  2. Since 2012 by Spy+Handler · · Score: 3, Funny

    For the past several years the city leaders of Toronto have been afraid to go after Uber, allowing it to operate unlicensed out of fear that the CEO and CFO of Uber will bash their heads in with baseball bats.

  3. Re: Dubious claims by afidel · · Score: 2

    It's the 4th largest by city proper population after mexico city, new York, and LA, but 13th largest by metro area.

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  4. Re:Dubious claims by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Informative
    The top 4 North American cities by population:

    1. Mexico City (pop. 8.5 million)
    2 New York (8.4 million)
    3 Los Angeles (3.8 million).
    4 Toronto (2.8 million)

    Chicago is 5th,

    San Francisco at 36th and Detroit at 53rd, both fall behind Canadian cities Montreal (9th), Calgary (22nd), Ottawa (32nd), Edmonton (33rd)

    Mississauga (49th), and just ahead of Winnipeg (55th) beat out Washington (60th), which is just ahead of Vancouver (63rd)

    Las Vegas, with a population of 583,736, doesn't make the list.

    --
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  5. Where will Uber dig? by ZipK · · Score: 2

    Too bad for Emil Michael that the press already dug up the dirt on Toronto's mayor, Rob Ford.

    1. Re:Where will Uber dig? by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      Rob Ford? Wasn't he the dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard and laid poor Jesse in his grave?

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  6. Re:Inspections? by drumlight · · Score: 2

    England had yearly safety inspections (the MOT) but in Ontario they do not exist and a safety test is only required when the vehicle registration is transferred i.e. when ever a second hand car is sold to a new owner. I don't think the safety check is required when transferring the ownership to a family member but I wouldn't swear to that.
    I've been utterly shocked at the state of many cars on the road here with no sills left and nothing but rust in other structurally essential parts of the car. I think the OPP can stop cars that they deem unsafe but there certainly is no annual safety inspection and the only required test is a bi-annual emissions check.

  7. Re:Inspections? by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yearly vehicle safety inspections are required in Ontario for regular cars

    So, I'll flat out say to you: bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

    As in, you're spewing bullshit. You're spewing so much bullshit it isn't even funny. Are you even aware that what you say is bullshit? You clearly do not own a motor vehicle in Ontario.

    There is no such thing as annual safety inspections of private, non-commercial motor vehicles in Ontario.

    I have owned a motor vehicle in Ontario for almost 20 years. You periodically have to do an emissions test. When you buy and sell it needs an inspection.

    But you do not, and have not for at least the last 20 years, have to do an annual motor vehicle inspection in Ontario.

    There are some classes of commercial vehicles which do get inspected annually.

    So these Uber guys? They're driving in their own personal vehicles with neither a commercial license, insurance, nor mandatory vehicle inspections.

    In other words, Uber as a service is pretty much ignoring the law and claiming that it doesn't apply to them.

    Basically, Uber is a bootleg taxi service, and the laws being applied have applied to all commercial car services for a very long time.

    This isn't some powerful taxi lobby pulling strings behind the scenes. This is cities deciding that Uber is required to follow the same laws as everybody else.

    Uber aren't the victims here. They're the idiots claiming they can decide the law doesn't apply to them and their drivers, and going ahead and doing it anyway.

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  8. What is the actual statistics for the 2 years? by temcat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would love the actual statistics of accidents and incidents involving Uber to be researched during the court hearings. Somehow I feel that it won't be significantly (or at all) worse than with licensed taxi drivers and companies. Of course, whatever the stats are, they have nothing to do with whether or not Uber breaks the law, but they can be used to judge if the regulation in its current form is necessary in the first place.

  9. Re:Inspections? by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yearly vehicle safety inspections are required in Ontario for regular cars

    So, I'll flat out say to you: bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

    I was mistaken; it's been a long time since I was up there. It appears that the laws have been relaxed in most Canadian provinces, other than New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, which still have hard requirements on safety inspections because they care about their citizens safety. I'm sorry your government in Ontario no longer cares.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V...

  10. Fourth Largest city, Eighth Biggest Metro area by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, according to our good friend wikipedia, Toronto is still 8th by metre area population in NA.

    It makes a difference whether you are asking about the population of the city, or the population of the metro area, the city plus surrounding areas that are not in the same political unit.

    Cities: Toronto is fourth largest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    Metropolitan Areas: Toronto is eighth largest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
    Urban Agglomertions: Toronto is number five: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    So I rate the original claim,

    Toronto is Canada's largest city, the fourth largest in North America

    , as True.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  11. Re:Dubious claims by JMJimmy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That's only if you look at CMAs - in reality the GTA or GTHA would be #5 or $6 with 6 to 6.5 million people

  12. Looking at the injunction/article by quantaman · · Score: 2

    The City is concerned that Uber's operations pose a serious risk to the public, including those who are signing on as drivers, for the following reasons:
      increased risk to passenger safety – no mechanical vehicle inspections, lack of driver training
      inadequate insurance that fails to meet the requirements of the Municipal Code and may not provide essential coverage to drivers, passengers and others in the event of accidents

    Seems legit. I could see the rationale for requiring a higher safety standard, and perticularly better insurance. This also seems like something Uber could accomodate.

    increased number of vehicles operating as taxicabs resulting in traffic congestion and a possible threat to the taxi industry, including the City's objective of increasing the number of on-demand accessible taxicabs available, mandated by the City of Toronto earlier this year

    So they want to stop Uber both because it results in too many new taxis... and because it reduces the number of Taxis? This argument sounds pretty dubious/protectionist.

    unregulated fares resulting in price surging/gouging, and

    Predatory pricing is a concern but for a big company like Uber it's generally something that consumers figure out.

    increased safety risk to the drivers due to lack of training and vehicle security equipment, normally governed by City bylaws.

    Again this is defensible and could be fixed by Uber.

    It seems like Uber has an ability to seek a regulatory middle ground with some basic driver training, safety inspections, and insurance standards. I'm not sure I understand their strategy of no accomodations.

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