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Ask Slashdot: Paying For Linux Support vs. Rolling Your Own?

schmaustech writes: A lot of businesses pay for Linux support. But at what point does that stop being worth the money? When would a company be better served by setting up their own internal support? When does it make sense for them to write their own patches, which could be submitted back to the community? The inherit risk is that the organization is accountable and accepts the risks if a major bug is encountered within any of the open source applications they are using. What's your perspective on this, and how many major corporations are taking this approach?

26 of 118 comments (clear)

  1. In my experience by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work with clients ranging from small business to Fortune 10 companies. On the SMB side most do support their own, though they rarely write patches. I don't know a single large enterprise using Linux that doesn't pay RedHat or whoever for support though. There are many reasons for that. SLAs are easier to hold a third party to than an internal organization. It makes the C level people feel better to have a company they are paying accountable for support. They do not have to carry the burden of the extra staff needed (that's a big one). The list goes on.

    1. Re:In my experience by dreamchaser · · Score: 2

      When did I say they didn't have local admins? That is a far cry from doing all of your support without a safety net.

    2. Re:In my experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I work for a company with probably 150k employees. I'm guessing total staff approaches half a milllion if you count the onsite contractors.

      I would be horrified if they brought the linux support in-house. That's not our job. We have a very specific job, and working on linux is not it. *Using* linux is definitely it, but but developing it would be a huge distraction.

      I've been using Slackware at home since 1996. The company I work for has thousands of Suse boxes, but the company I work for makes luxury goods, not linux distributions.

    3. Re:In my experience by elbles · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We were having a problem with a "no IRQ handler for vector" issue that was crippling networking on a lot of HP DL360G7 systems we had. We were running CentOS on some of these systems, and RHEL on others, and though we never reached out to Red Hat ourselves.

      Red Hat had a bug open for it (bug 887006 if I recall correctly), and it was interesting to see what their response was to paying customers. They did provide special kernel packages to help fix/troubleshoot the issue, but it still went on for a long time. To make matters even worse, even when the bug was visible to me (as a Red Hat customer), lots of it was redacted, to the point where it was difficult to determine key pieces of information. And while I don't have access to my RHN login right now, I don't believe that bug is accessible to anyone outside of Red Hat at this point (which is another problem itself)

      I suppose my point is even in circumstances where you can hold the vendor responsible and where they are taking action, it doesn't guarantee that the problem will be fixed when The Business(TM) wants it to be. And for problems like this, where it's affecting or going to affect a large number of people, it'll get the proper attention it needs, paid support or not.

      I get paying for support from a CYA perspective, but that's really all it is, IMHO.

    4. Re:In my experience by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

      >you can buy into a support scheme the day you encounter a problem

      Have you ever even held a real job? Apparently not. By the time the contracts have been reviewed by lawyers and the purchase order processed and paid out, days or even weeks will have gone by. Do days or weeks of downtime sound like an acceptable situation to you?

      Have you? If this is your plan, you already have the a-la-carte support agreement approved by the lawyers, and a few support incidents in your budget. Then you just call and pay, and get support right now.

      Of course, that takes prior planning, something that is actually rare in a lot of IT departments.

    5. Re:In my experience by houstonbofh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact that "Support != Solution" is a painfull lesson for many.

    6. Re:In my experience by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 2

      The silly thing is... they NEVER hold these companies accountable.

      Define accountable? Your support contract outlines what can be expected. You have problems, they try to resolve the problems. That's one kind of accountable. Outage causes millions in losses? That's a different accountable, and they legally will fight any attempt to collect on that. If you pay for support, and never hold them "accountable" i.e. never contact support, then that's stupid.

      When have you ever heard Microsoft pushing a patch for Windows early or an extra update merely because a customer was 'upset'.

      Never, because no one does that and no one expects that. They expect the opposite. And who is even talking about Microsoft here other than you?

      And Redhat is actually pretty bad about support; they only support a VERY SMALL set of very old releases (vs Ubuntu which keeps their releases pretty up to date). The excuse is 'it might break something' which is a pile of BS since it wouldn't be in the core supported repo.

      Then why would you pay Red Hat for such limited support? Unless that's all you need? And otherwise shouldn't you find someone willing to take your money and provide that support?

      Here's the problem with Linux - pushing a bug fix does not mean you have a huge lab with all kinds of software you can run regression tests on. Different versions of packages, including anything anyone found once that solved a problem, could be on any box. Microsoft knows what its customers run, and it can focus on whatever has broken in past support tickets to prevent similar issues. But Red Hat actually has to be more conservative due to the ecosystem.

      I would laugh if companies actually DID hold companies accountable because then no one would provide support. Its a silly house of cards that I call BULLSHIT on.

      Do you mean lawsuits? Because the kind of lawsuit that would make support a poor business plan simply is not possible due to the wording of the contracts, and established case law. Support means having a contract, and you can hold the company to that contract. But you can't hold them beyond that contract. So someone wrote the wrong contract, or someone (you) has no idea what the contract says. You should find out and give specifics, or get off the internet with your ignorance.

    7. Re: In my experience by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      A lot of people minuderstand this, and make up nonsense about "being able to sue somebody if something goes wrong," which of course they can't.

      Others make the mistake of thinking support = solved problems.

      Corporate support means documentation that proves you Did Everything Reasonable and according to Professional Standards.

      Small or privately owned shops don't need that, and don't even know why other people do need it, so you get a lot of know-it-alls on here hooking their thumbs in their suspenders yacking about how stupid people are and they can't do anything for themselves. lolol

    8. Re:In my experience by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 2

      I didn't have a good experience with Sun support but your milage might vary. I think very dependent on the skills of the person you deal with. We were in the process of migrating our SAN and a Sun box wouldn't see the luns that were being presented to it. Sun support at about $400 a pop, dude new about as much as we did in house. Ended up being a IBM guy who figured it out (got that for "free" because IBM was already on site installing their SAN and their tech escalated it): IBM support just happened to have a sun server just like ours, they installed it and tried to configure it the same as ours in their lab. Were then able to tell us which bits to twiddle in the FC card driver to get things working again. So in my experience IBM for the win. But didn't do a lot of direct to the electronics vendor IT stuff in my day, mostly medical software and our initial support always went through the vendor and off then to MS, IBM etc who ever supplied the hardware. Anyways, I was really impressed when the IBM guy was telling the Sun guy what bits to twiddle in their OS.

  2. Linux Support is Rarely Worth The Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    I work in pretty homogenous networking environment: Linux, BSD, Windows, Mac. I NEVER, EVER call for support, even if I work for a place that has paid for it. Why you ask? Pillars of intransigence is why. All vendors, to a man, do their best to give you the least. I've found that by understanding the problem, using Google, and pinging others in the shop, we can usually figure out the most complex stuff within a day or two. Linux support is for shops with people who don't really understand Linux at all. Linux networks, even machines running mostly Linux, is usually pretty easy to sort out with a little understanding of the issues. CentOS is popular largely because people can sort it out without paying the exorbitant costs associated with Red Hat support. I've used Red Hat support in the past. I don't plan on ever calling them again.

    1. Re:Linux Support is Rarely Worth The Money by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Pinging others in the shop?

      I would think that a TCP/IP conversation would be more productive.

      ACK....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Linux Support is Rarely Worth The Money by epyT-R · · Score: 2

      It depends on the problem.

  3. Too risky by mewrei · · Score: 2

    It really doesn't make sense for large organizations who are supporting mission critical apps. There probably aren't any managers on the planet who will willingly make the decision to support it themselves because one critical issue and it's their job. Instead, they'd much rather have a 3rd party to strangle if and when they have a critical issue

    1. Re:Too risky by dbIII · · Score: 2

      they'd much rather have a 3rd party to strangle if and when they have a critical issue

      However when you have goals other than giving your lawyers something to do it's not so clear cut.

    2. Re:Too risky by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Your lawyers will advise you that you can't really sue software vendors when you're mad at them. Bugs happen. Having somebody to "strangle" means "having somebody outside the company to blame when talking to your own boss." That is all it means.

      And of course, lots of companies do have a different management dynamic than that.

  4. Re:Risk? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's no liability for patches (except for intentionally malicious ones) to an open source application. If there were, nobody would submit one.

    In this context I think it means "nobody to pass the buck to", if Windows crashes you blame Microsoft, if RHEL crashes you blame Red Hat, if CentOS crashes you take the blame. Then again my impression is that very, very few have the kind of ultra-platinum support where the vendor will jump all over you to solve your problem, it's mostly your problem to solve anyway. It's just a blame shifting exercise, how badly you need it depends on how much shit is going to roll downhill. The technical merits of support is often secondary.

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  5. inherit risk? by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 2

    Seriously? Who TF is editing this?

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  6. Linux support by Lando · · Score: 3, Informative

    To maintain and support an entire OS takes a lot of work. We aren't talking about just development here, but checking to make sure things run properly and making the changes needed to ensure stuff is supporter. The point I would start looking at rolling your own distribution and supporting it is the day you decide to start selling your distribution.

    For internal use, sure you might have to have a team to do internal work to modify certain sections in order to make the OS work for you, but they are relatively minor compared to ensuring an entire distribution works as needed. Let another company do the heavy lifting and just have your company modify it and submit changes back through the system as desired. Feedback works as well.

    To run an entire distribution and all the subsystems takes billions, look at IBM donating to Linux as a whole they give value back to the community rather than trying to extend and embrace for their own purposes. Redhat does the same and they do distribution and sales. Other companies are the same. I guess you can make the decision on your own but personally I suppose the time to switch is when you have support fees in excess of what it would cost to maintain an entire distribution. I'd assume someone around a thousand people focused on the project would be about right. A thousand people's salaries would buy a lot of support. A better idea might be to hire developers for the subsections of the OS that you need and have them work with the community.

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  7. Shoemaker, stick to your last. by westlake · · Score: 2

    A lot of businesses pay for Linux support. But at what point does that stop being worth the money? When would a company be better served by setting up their own internal support? When does it make sense for them to write their own patches, which could be submitted back to the community?

    The core competence of most businesses does not lie in the internals of an operating system.

    It can make perfect sense as well to "outsource" clerical work to Microsoft and Office 365, accounting to specialists in corporate accounting, and so on.

    Contributions to open source that build on a deep investment in what you are really, really, good at, and perhaps better at than anyone else in the world, are far more likely to be enduring and influential.

    Open Source

  8. Ask yourself: What is our business model? by msobkow · · Score: 3, Informative

    You're asking the wrong question. The question is "what is our business?".

    If it's not your business, you hire experts to take care of it.

    My guess is "producing a Linux distribution" isn't in your business model.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Ask yourself: What is our business model? by CBravo · · Score: 2

      The question should be: What are the risks and how do we keep them in balance (by maintaining control).

      --
      nosig today
  9. I Highly Recommend Paid Support by theManInTheYellowHat · · Score: 2

    I have managed Linux servers in a professional environment for 20 years and for "production" environments I highly recommend paying for support.

    I have had the good fortune of getting a tech on the phone to handle issues that were solved by the people that know the software the best. Red Hat and SUSE both employ top notch support folks. I have not experienced any others, I would expect they are also quite good. Talking to another tech on the phone that you can trust is totally worth it to you and the business that you are working for.

    Contrast that with hoping that someone has had the problem you are trying to solve and has solved it and has posted to a forum you search is just not the route to go. In my opinion, you should not allow a business to make this choice. It is insurance and not a guarantee of success but that is why the business pays for it and other types of insurance.

    Also these paid support contracts help fund the open source world and are, again in my opinion, the responsibility of a business using open source software.

  10. Re:Risk? by Shados · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Except there's support included when you get a Microsoft product. If you're beyond that and don't have a support contract, its $250 to pass the buck over to them if their shit goes kaboom on you.

    Once, I was at a company where we ended up with a critical bug in SharePoint ( ::shudder::...that was a long time ago...) auditing.

    After going through the support monkey, we eventually had something silly like 12 microsoft engineers and PMs on the line in a conference call debugging the issue with us a few times over a week. In the end they gave us a fixed up DLL, and things were good.

    Net bill: ~$250 (give or take).

  11. Re:Risk? by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    But if you actually read your license and EULA, it won't do any good.

    It does when you are talking to your boss. "We bought support, but even they can't figure it out."

  12. Risks by thecombatwombat · · Score: 2

    "The inherit (sic, seriously editors?) risk is that the organization is accountable and accepts the risks if a major bug is encountered within any of the open source applications they are using."

    I'm always surprised by this being raised as a contrast to proprietary software. As pretty much anyone who has ever relied on proprietary software for their business and had that threatened by a major bug will tell you, there's no magical protection brought about by the license agreement being closed source. I've created massive complex workarounds for bugs in software we were paying tens of thousands of dollars while waiting literally years for the vendor to acknowledge the issue, let alone fix it. I won't call out my specific employers or vendors, but I can't help but assume a lack of experience on the part of the writer when I read something like that.

    In my experienced opinion the best scenario to stake your business on is open software with strong commercial backing. That way when something goes wrong, you've got a third party with incentive to help you, a community of eyes, and access to fix it yourself.

  13. It's pretty much the same as insurance. by BlindRobin · · Score: 2

    Tis question is not exactly but largely analogous to the question : 'Do we self insure or purchase insurance'? The risk evaluation is complex and the answer is dependant on the a number of weighty factors not least of which is the amount of liquid assets available to address a catastrophic failure. Hire a risk analyst.