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Microsoft Gets Industry Support Against US Search Of Data In Ireland
An anonymous reader writes Tech giants such as Apple and eBay have given their support in Microsoft's legal battle against the U.S. government regarding the handing over of data stored in an Irish datacenter. In connection with a 2014 drugs investigation, U.S. prosecutors issued a warrant for emails stored by Microsoft in Ireland. The firm refused to hand over the information, but in July was ordered by a judge to comply with the investigation. Microsoft has today filed a collection of letters from industry supporters, such as Apple, eBay, Cisco, Amazon, HP, and Verizon. Trade associations including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Digital Rights Ireland have also expressed their support.
Does not matter if communist, socialist or capitalist. They are all obsolete. All them.
In my understanding, politicians should live only with what they provide to the population. They should not be responsible for public health-care if they are not obligated to use that very same service as well! They should also be obligated to use public transport, education, etc.
Oh, they don`t like the idea... ok, the door is at the left. Next!
Surely there is some analog to 'extradition' for search warrants, isn't there?
The idea that any nation you happen to have a presence in can demand something you have in any other nation seems like an obviously dangerous shortcut to most-abusive-common-denominator law; but being able to black-hole anything just by shifting the VM across the border presents its own problems.
Is there actually no such instrument, and this sort of thing somehow hasn't come up enough to be settled, or did the Fed prosecutors just demand first and try tact later because they aren't exactly lacking for arrogance(or, in fairness, lacking for reasons to be arrogant, given how often they get away with it)?
Part of me hopes Microsoft loses and this costs the huge US tech conglomerates oodles of overseas business.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Honestly, I'm having a little bit of a hard time deciding what I think about this. On the one hand, I'm very much in favor of privacy, and it seems to me that the rules for searching a server in Ireland should be approximately the same as the rules for searching a storage locker in Ireland.
On the other hand, I feel that it's important to consider that, with the whole "cloud computing" thing, it doesn't necessarily matter where your data is stored. For example, I might throw a document in my Dropbox folder and it get synced to "the cloud", and I have no idea where that file is physically located. It could be in Ireland, for all I know. So even though I may not live in Ireland or access it from Ireland, I may not have intended to store it in Ireland, and I may not even know it's in Ireland, it happens to be stored in Ireland at this moment. It could be shuffled off to another physical location tomorrow.
So I guess that makes me wonder, in such a hypothetical circumstance, if declaring it absolutely within the jurisdiction of Ireland might be opening a bit of a can of worms. If I throw a file up in my Dropbox and it ends up cached in Russia, without my knowledge or permission, is it now subject to Russian copyright laws? Is it now subject to Russian decency laws? If the information is considered illegal in Russia, am I now guilty of smuggling?
I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, so maybe I'm wrong to think that there might be some weird repercussions.
A person defies a valid court order? They're arrested and in jail for contempt of court.
Unless, of course, the person is a white cattle rancher.
No, the issue is if it truly is a valid court order.
See, if an American court decides that American laws are extra-territorial ... that is the point at which the rest of the world sends a big "fuck you" to America. (Which is long overdue anyway.)
And any sane country would say "OK, Microsoft, if you do this in violation of local laws, we're going to fine you a percentage of global revenues ... because our laws are now extra-territorial."
Microsoft in Ireland may be a wholly owned subsidiary, but it is a separate legal entity operating under the laws of Ireland, and incorporated under Irish law. You can't bypass the Irish courts because Microsoft US owns Microsoft Ireland.
It doesn't work that way.
The PATRIOT ends at the point where an Irish corporation, subject to Irish laws, is told to adhere to a court order by an American court, without consultation with an Irish court.
That's about as self entitled and delusional as you can get as a nation.
If corporations are legally people, then Microsoft Ireland is a citizen of Ireland, and not subject to US courts. Either way, Microsoft Ireland is 100% subject to applicable Irish law.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
And you think that somehow the ruling of a US court absolves Microsoft from Irish law?
Because that's a complete crock of shit, and the only way Microsoft in Ireland exists as a corporation is under Irish law.
So, I'm sorry, but a US court cannot compel a foreign citizen or corporation in that country to break local laws just because there is a relationship with a US company.
The problem is that a US court believes it has the authority to make Microsoft Ireland violate the laws of Ireland, when Microsoft Ireland isn't under the legal jurisdiction of that US court. And that's simply not true.
Microsoft is saying "If you want this, go to an Irish court, but don't demand that we break the law for you".
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The US cannot force a sovereign foreign company? The US can force (or "persuade") entire countries and groups of countries to dance when they play the pipe, you think this would change anything?
TTIP, anyone? So far I cannot see anything in there that is NOT exclusively beneficial to the US and puts everyone else at a severe disadvantage, but do you see any kind of protest against it from inside governments?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The problem is that the US courts ruled that US law does apply in Ireland because Microsoft has a presence in both countries.
But there are decades of precedence for this: see the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 and the 1988 ruling applying to foreign firms.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Slightly more complicated:
The issue is whether something stored in Ireland but accessible from the USA is subject to a warrant. Yeah, the data is on an Irish server. But the person issued the warrant is in the USA and has direct access (and probably a certain amount of control) of the server.
It still opens a can of beans the US Federal government REALLY doesn't want opened, but it's not like the US Government has had much restraint placed on its activities since the days of FDR....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
The order isn't against any person or entity in Ireland. It is against a US company, and US employees, who can access the data from their desks in the US. Under US law, it is certainly a valid order. Under Irish law, it is not. There is a conflict that the US prosecutor (and judge) do not want to (or can't, under current law) address. No matter what Microsoft does, they will break the law somewhere.
This is a surprisingly (for the source) thoughtful account of things so far, and explains the reasoning behind the order.
I doubt you will bother to ready it, and likely won't understand it if you do, and certainly won't care, but there it is.
America is all about race. Only cowards would deny the obvious.
The race to the bottom, maybe. Making "race" the center of everyday life? Only for minorities (and I'm not talking racial minorities). It's not race that's at issue in the US anymore; it's societal norms. There's an "African American" culture, a "Latino" culture, a "White Power" culture, and a plethora of others. For the most part, these have nothing to do with genetic background or inherited traits, and everything to do with the cultural norms as accepted by one group and not by another. These days someone with a grandmother from China, a grandfather from Mexico, another grandmother from Italy and the last grandfather 6th generation African American isn't really all that abnormal. And yet this person could validly claim to be part of any of the most vocal race-based groups in the US. But what really matters is how they speak, where they live, and how they dress. THAT's what America is all about. Status.
Microsoft in Ireland may be a wholly owned subsidiary, but it is a separate legal entity operating under the laws of Ireland, and incorporated under Irish law. You can't bypass the Irish courts because Microsoft US owns Microsoft Ireland.
If I own a car located in Sweden, and I'm a US citizen in the US, arrested in the US... can the court compel me to make arrangements to produce for the court something in that car's glove box? I don't actually know...could one? Its not entirely unreasonable to speculate that they could make that demand and then hold me in contempt if I refused to make that arrangement.
Microsoft in Ireland may be a wholly owned subsidiary, but it is a separate legal entity operating under the laws of Ireland, and incorporated under Irish law.
According to you, it is also the legal property of Microsoft US. They don't need to compel the Irish to do anything. They can (arguably) simply compel the US entity in their jurisdiction to summon its own property.
If corporations are legally people [...]
They are clearly not the same as human people. For starters, you can own them as property.
Microsoft Ireland is 100% subject to applicable Irish law.
It is also subject to the orders of its owner, what with it being property and all. So as long a Microsoft US doesn't demand that it do something illegal by Irish law, it has to do whatever Microsoft US tells it to do.
I'm not arguing that you are "wrong" merely that your argument omits the crucial element of property ownership in play.
If so, this boils down to can a court compel a property owner to direct his property to do something (such as forward a document in that properties possession), even if the property happens to be in another country? (one could also substitute "property" for "slave" in that sentence... and
When looked at like that, its not really ridiculous at all.
This is not a case of a court making demands directly of an Irish citizen; which is the possible strawman you erected. This is the case of a court making demands of a US corporation. The nature of that demand is that the US corporation in turn compel its own property in Ireland to do its bidding.
It might seem equivalent in the end, but they are NOT the same thing. For example there is no way the courts in the USA can compel ME to do anything because I am not in the USA, nor am I the legal property of any entity in the USA.
Property ownership of a legal corporate entity doesn't mean that the parent entity can compel the owned entity to break the law. Corporations exist entirely under national laws of incorporation.
And Microsoft, the parent, cannot absolve Microsoft, the child, from the applicable laws.
So if it would be illegal for an Irish citizen to comply with this order without an order from an Irish court ... then Microsoft Ireland if it breaks the laws in Ireland would be pretty much screwed. Microsoft USA can't do an end-run around Irish law just because they can get someone outside of Ireland to do it.
I would sincerely hope Microsoft Ireland would face giant fines, and someone would be sent to jail.
Wholly owned subsidiary is the not the same as property. That wholly owned subsidiary is a legal entity in Ireland which is 100% subject to Irish laws.
Some American court doesn't have the jurisdiction to make that legal entity violate local laws. It's delusional to think otherwise.
Mere whim of the US courts doesn't mean Irish law can be ignored.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
This case is about personal privacy and national sovereignty somewhat, but it's primarily about the setting precedent for the privilege of multinational corporations.
I know this is going to be an unpopular viewpoint, but the industry is behind Microsoft here because it lessens their accountability to any governments anywhere. The Snow Crash future, where big corporations make their own rules and don't answer to anyone, depends on them not having any accountability to anyone else. Just like shuffling their money around the globe gets them out of having to pay taxes anywhere, shuffling their data around will prevent them from even being investigated for any crimes they may commit. Expect future incriminating emails and documents to be stored safely in subpoena-proof countries.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
I wish times were simpler and my country wasn't such a fucking arrogant, pushy, bastard.
The order isn't against any person or entity in Ireland. It is against a US company, and US employees, who can access the data from their desks in the US. Under US law, it is certainly a valid order.
Actually, it likely is not.
A warrant is only applicable to people/places within the jurisdiction of the court that issued the warrant. Microsoft Ireland (which stores the data but does not technically own or control it) and various Irish citizens (who own/control the data) are not under jurisdiction of any US court.
As a subpoena, it's not possible for any Microsoft US employee to comply, because a subpoena only forces you to turn over data/items/evidence that you own/possess...it cannot ask you to turn over items that you do not (otherwise, the government could hand anybody on the street a subpoena to walk into someone's house to gather evidence). No Microsoft US employee owns/possesses the data in question, and whether they have access is not important. What Microsoft needs to do is find somebody in the US who does have legal access to the data and issue them a subpoena.
Property ownership of a legal corporate entity doesn't mean that the parent entity can compel the owned entity to break the law. Corporations exist entirely under national laws of incorporation.
Of course. I never suggested otherwise.
So if it would be illegal for an Irish citizen to comply with this order without an order from an Irish court ...
Are you saying it would be outright illegal for an Irish citizen to forward a document or a copy of it to a court in the United States?
It's already been said: Irish law has stronger privacy protections, and forwarding a private e-mail of a customer would be a breach of said law. It was asked to Irish courts, and Irish courts denied US courts access to said mail without providing probable cause in Irish terms.
So yes, not only it would be outright illegal, but a court has already decided that there's not enough evidence and has forbidden said forwarding.
Anyone in Ireland that complies to said order from the US would be subject to Irish law.
Anyone in the US that gets into Irish servers to extract the information would be subject to Irish law through extradition for comitting a crime (cyber or not) in Ireland.
It's a fucked up situation.
If I own a car located in Sweden, and I'm a US citizen in the US, arrested in the US... can the court compel me to make arrangements to produce for the court something in that car's glove box? I don't actually know...could one? Its not entirely unreasonable to speculate that they could make that demand and then hold me in contempt if I refused to make that arrangement.
Depends on what is the car's glove box.
- If it's something that Sweden doesn't give a damn about (some trivial object), well you could produce it for the court, and the court might be unhappy if you refuse to produce it and actively make obstruction (if the court offer to send a swedish cop to retrieve the object and you refuse to give the key your are kindly asked to provide them, you're the problem)
BUT
- If it's something that is illegal to export out of the country according to Swedish or EU law (weapon, endangered specie, nuclear fuel, etc.), then you CANNOT LEGALLY produce it to the court. What the court is asking you is illegal in Sweden. If you do it anyway, you're going to have big problems with a Swedish court.
According to you, it is also the legal property of Microsoft US. They don't need to compel the Irish to do anything. They can (arguably) simply compel the US entity in their jurisdiction to summon its own property.
Sorry, no. They can't. It's not legal in EU countries (and a few other europeans countries) to move private data around without consent.
Microsoft US cannot summon data in Ireland, without the explicit consent of the data owner. If they move the data anyway, they can be sued in Ireland for it.
While in a foreign country, you cannot commit a crime (under that country's law), even if it's your home country asking for you.
(Otherwise, spying would be entirely legal: because it was done on the order of the spy's home country).
It is also subject to the orders of its owner, what with it being property and all. So as long a Microsoft US doesn't demand that it do something illegal by Irish law, it has to do whatever Microsoft US tells it to do.
But moving private data around without the owner's consent *IS* illegal in most EU and other european countries.
What the US court asks *IS* illegal in Ireland.
and the US court HAS NO power in Ireland. They are giving orders out of their jurisdiction.
If so, this boils down to can a court compel a property owner to direct his property to do something (such as forward a document in that properties possession), even if the property happens to be in another country? (one could also substitute "property" for "slave" in that sentence... and
When looked at like that, its not really ridiculous at all.
Except forwarding that document is absolutely illegal in Ireland.
It works better if you substitute "slave" in that sentence: What if there is no slavery in that country ?! What if all humans are considered free?
This is not a case of a court making demands directly of an Irish citizen; which is the possible strawman you erected.
No, but the data happens to be in Ireland, not in the US. Irish and EU law apply there. Nobody gives a damn shit about US there. Exporting the data IS illegal.
Again let's change the details. Let's take some Extremist / totalitarian government. The goverment asks one of its citizen to assassinate a target (that etremist / totalitarian regime has law that make this request legally binding and mandatory). The citizen then travels to US, and shoots the target: an innocent US citizen - who happen to have angered the government with some publication.
Is the assissnation legal, even if it was ordered according to the law of the extremist government? No, because that government has no jurisdiction in the US. In the US, US-law apply, and you are not allowed to shoot random inocent people, just because some other random dude accros
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