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Research Highlights How AI Sees and How It Knows What It's Looking At

anguyen8 writes Deep neural networks (DNNs) trained with Deep Learning have recently produced mind-blowing results in a variety of pattern-recognition tasks, most notably speech recognition, language translation, and recognizing objects in images, where they now perform at near-human levels. But do they see the same way we do? Nope. Researchers recently found that it is easy to produce images that are completely unrecognizable to humans, but that DNNs classify with near-certainty as everyday objects. For example, DNNs look at TV static and declare with 99.99% confidence it is a school bus. An evolutionary algorithm produced the synthetic images by generating pictures and selecting for those that a DNN believed to be an object (i.e. "survival of the school-bus-iest"). The resulting computer-generated images look like modern, abstract art. The pictures also help reveal what DNNs learn to care about when recognizing objects (e.g. a school bus is alternating yellow and black lines, but does not need to have a windshield or wheels), shedding light into the inner workings of these DNN black boxes.

130 comments

  1. Automatic cars are just around the corner... by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

    Unfortunately they are wrapped around a tree; just around the corner. Mistook a bee 3 inches from the camera for a school bus.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    1. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by peon_a-z,A-Z,0-9$_+! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Everytime I see this topic appear on Slashdot (Last time) I think:

      You're putting a neural network (NN) through a classification process where it is fed this image as a "fixed input", where the input's constituent elements are constant, and you ask it to classify correctly the same way as a human would. The problem with this comparison is the human eye does not see a "constant" input stream; the eye captures a stream of images, each slightly skewed as your head moves and the images changes slightly. Based on this stream of slightly different images, the human identifies an object.

      However, in this research, time and again a "team" shows a "fault" in a NN by taking a single, nonvarying image input to a NN and calling it a "deep flaw in the image processing network", and I just get a feeling that they're doing it wrong.

      To your topic though: You better hope your car is not just taking one single still image and performing actions based on that. You better hope your car is taking a stream of images and making decisions, which would be a completely different class of problem than this.

    2. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by reve_etrange · · Score: 3, Informative

      You better hope your car is not just taking one single still image and performing actions based on that.

      In fact, most of them don't use computer vision much at all. Google's self-driving car for example uses a rotating IR laser to directly measure its surrounds.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    3. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by peon_a-z,A-Z,0-9$_+! · · Score: 1

      Great point.

      It's reassuring that the decision-makers in that process consider alternative ideas; basing the goal on 'human-like' sight would leave a lot of room for error (given limitations of even human perception and classification capabilities!)

    4. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neural networks are not used with autonomous cars. So you should rest easy.

    5. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      It's reassuring that the decision-makers in that process consider alternative ideas; basing the goal on 'human-like' sight would leave a lot of room for error

      It's true, but using 3D laser mapping feels a little bit like cheating - after all, human drivers don't need nearly that much information. A successful computer vision approach would be a lot more impressive, even if it was too dangerous for the highway.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    6. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, in this research, time and again a "team" shows a "fault" in a NN by taking a single, nonvarying image input to a NN and calling it a "deep flaw in the image processing network", and I just get a feeling that they're doing it wrong.

      First of all, these neural networks are not at all anything like an animal's brain.

      Second, they are expecting them to do something that requires a massive amount of intelligence; to really tell what is a school bus you have to know what a school bus is.

      Finally, these networks are fooled with static images because that's what their inputs are. If their inputs were dynamic images one could just create animated gifs that also confuse them.

    7. Re: Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They still use human vision as well for signs, and such.

    8. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      That is because computer vision is not yet good enough.
      However, Google's rotating laser costs $70,000. Just the laser, you still have to pay for the car under it.

      While large scale production would be able to lower that significantly it might be better to start with a $100 camera and a $1000 neural net computer.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    9. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      I guess the price goes a long way towards showing how much more impressive the computer vision approach would be, if it worked. A (stereoscopic) camera produces much less information than LIDAR, and visual tasks are always deceptively complex.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    10. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think simple things like saccades improve the ability of the network to avoid these pitfalls? This would be something interesting to try...

    11. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if it is flying upward, line orientation matters and anyway who cares so long as it does a good job of locating bagels for me?

    12. Re:Automatic cars are just around the corner... by mcswell · · Score: 1

      But we can recognize an object in a photograph or drawing, too, and there the differences in the stream of slightly different images must surely be noise, right?

  2. This synopsis by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

    makes it seem like the computers are morons. Anything that is black and yellow is a school bus...mmmmm nope.

    1. Re:This synopsis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      makes it seem like the computers are morons. Anything that is black and yellow is a school bus...mmmmm nope.

      Why isn't anything that is black and yellow a school bus?

    2. Re:This synopsis by sexconker · · Score: 0

      makes it seem like the computers are morons. Anything that is black and yellow is a school bus...mmmmm nope.

      black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow black and yellow

      Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition.
      Okay Slashdot here are some words to pad out the thingy because your zip zop zoopity bop get ur jello on mah puddin pop kodak fiiiiilm

    3. Re:This synopsis by Pubstar · · Score: 1

      Aiight, you know what it is (black and yellow black and yellow)

    4. Re:This synopsis by babymac · · Score: 2

      But don't worry. I'm sure the armchair experts of Slashdot will be along any minute to tell us how this all just a bunch of hype and that the computers are stupid (I'm not disagreeing - for the moment) and AI is at least ten millions years away and will likely NEVER come to pass. Seriously though, I think a large portion of this site's users have their heads in the sand. I don't work in the field, but I am very interested in it and I read a lot of material from a lot of reputable sources. It seems to me that there are some very deep pockets out there treating this as a serious project and are determined to succeed. Personally, I think they will succeed and far sooner than almost everyone will expect. To have a huge impact, AI doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to reason at a human level to be of use or have a noticeable effect on the economy. And once simpler forms of AI arrive, it will advance very rapidly. I think the folks here on Slashdot will be denying the possibility of such a thing right up until the day before they find themselves on the unemployment line. I think we (and our political leaders) should be preparing for a new economy today while there's still time. Otherwise, it'll be a catastrophe for the majority of working people and society at large.

      --
      "War makes me sad." - Me
    5. Re:This synopsis by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      makes it seem like the computers are morons.

      Makes it seem like the people choosing the training sets are morons.

    6. Re:This synopsis by bunratty · · Score: 1

      There's a tremendous gap between the "AI" that researchers are working on and and artificial general intelligence. The algorithms used in AI systems are almost always very simple. These algorithms are simply not going to make this leap and become what we would consider intelligent. It's like expecting Google search to suddenly gain sentience. My favorite quote about this is "Believing that writing these types of programs will bring us closer to real artificial intelligence is like believing that someone climbing a tree is making progress toward reaching the moon."

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    7. Re:This synopsis by Anguirel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There's also a tremendous gap between what we consider complex and what we consider simple. For example, the brain is complex. However, individual elements of our brains are incredibly simple. Basic chemical reactions. Neurons firing or not. It's the sheer number of simultaneous simple pieces working together that makes it complex.

      Lots of simple AI algorithms all working together make the complexity. This isn't climbing a tree. It's one person poking at chemicals until they get high-energy combustible fuels, and another playing with paper to make paper airplanes better, and a third refining ceramics and metals to make them lighter and stronger and to handle different characteristics, and then they all get put together and you have a person on the moon.

      The illusion is that you think we need to make a leap to get from here to there. There's never a leap. It's lots of small simple steps that get you there.

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
    8. Re:This synopsis by bouldin · · Score: 1

      No, they just aren't anywhere "near-human."

    9. Re:This synopsis by bunratty · · Score: 1

      Well, if you have the idea of a rocket, yes you can put the parts together and make a rocket. But no one has an idea of how to make a working general artificial intelligence. That's the leap. What are the parts we need? How do we put them together? No one has a clue! If you know how to do it, write it up in a thesis, collect your PhD, and make billions.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    10. Re:This synopsis by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      It's like expecting Google search to suddenly gain sentience

      Meet Watson, it beat the best humans in the open ended problem domain of "game show trivia" using natural language processing. When it won the Jeopardy championship it had 20 tons of air-conditioning and a room full of servers. Today it runs on a "pizza box" server and you can try it out yourself. After Jeopardy it went back to working with various medical institutes where it was trained and fed on a steady diet of medical journals, it's now well past the point where it became knowledgeable enough to pass the test for a US GP's license.

      True Watson is blind, but I suspect the problems with visual input is more about the human teacher's failure to provide the right context and experience than it is about the artificial students ability to learn.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:This synopsis by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      There are exceptions - Calculus is a good example, That's why everyone knows the name Newton more than three centuries after his death, calculus and his laws of motion enabled the leap called the industrial revolution and inspired the social leap known as the enlightenment.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:This synopsis by Entrope · · Score: 1

      The people choosing the training sets are not morons at all. This "research" is almost exactly analogous to finding that this year's SAT can be passed by feeding it a fixed pattern of A, C, D, A, B, and so forth -- and then declaring that this means standardized testing is easy to fake out. They are exploiting the particular structure of a particular instance of a DNN. It is not surprising that they can find odd images that make a DNN answer "yes" when the only question it knows how to answer is "is this a rotary phone dial?"

    13. Re:This synopsis by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      You must read a different version of slashdot than me.

      I thought the consensus here was that AI is "just an engineering problem" (like terraforming Mars) and will probably be here by next Tuesday.

      What is odd is that people here seem to think that computer programming will be exempt from the effects of real AI. I'd think it would be one of the first things to go.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    14. Re:This synopsis by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The illusion is that you think we need to make a leap to get from here to there. There's never a leap. It's lots of small simple steps that get you there.

      That is true if the ultimate goal is not impossible.

      No number of small simple steps is going to lead to time travel.

      The only way to prove that true AI (General AI or whatever you want to call it) is possible is to make something with true AI.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    15. Re:This synopsis by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Calculus is a good example, That's why everyone knows the name Newton more than three centuries after his death . . .

      Then how come so few know the name Liebniz?

    16. Re:This synopsis by Anguirel · · Score: 1

      "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
    17. Re:This synopsis by Anguirel · · Score: 1

      If the goal is impossible, then no leap will get there either.

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
    18. Re:This synopsis by Anguirel · · Score: 1

      Plenty of people have ideas for how to make a working general artificial intelligence. Some of them might even be correct. No one has the funding necessary for what some would call the "easy" versions, because they require a lot of research into things that aren't computers. If we study neurons to the point where we can simulate them reasonably accurately, we can probably simulate a brain, and have it work more-or-less correctly. However, we're not even that good at figuring out what a single neuron is going to do, much less clusters of them. Even if we did have that knowledge, we also don't have the raw computing power needed for simulating such a mind-bogglingly huge number of neurons to the degree of accuracy that would likely be required.

      What we have here is similar to a sewing machine. Making a machine that simulates how we sew is incredibly difficult. Modern sewing machines don't sew anything like a single person with a needle and thread. They found a different method that works really well as a machine, but would be very hard for a human to manage (especially when you get into sergers and the like with 4+ threads running through them).

      Wait, sorry, forgot where I was. It's like a car. Making a mechanical horse is really, really tough. They're still not that good at it yet, though some groups are getting much closer. Instead when they made the horseless carriage, they changed the methodology to accomplish the same task. They're trying to mimic aspects of intelligence to achieve some end result, not the whole thing, in a way that suits the hardware they have available right now.

      Will this yield general AI alone? Of course not. But it might be a step to getting reasonably accurate visual recognition working. Another group is clearly working on natural language parsing and on-the-fly translation. We're already pretty solid with spatial processing, and getting a lot better at balance for ambulatory mechanical devices. If we can set up a device that balances and moves on two legs, uses visual recognition to form a spatial map, and can handle natural language processing and can respond in natural language, all using the same underlying database, that's starting to sound like a good general purpose android, and that would be another nice step towards something that could be considered general AI by some definitions.

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
  3. Reverse OCR by yarbo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Reminds me of the reverse OCR tumblr. It generates patterns of squiggles a human could never read but the OCR recognizes as a word.

    http://reverseocr.tumblr.com/

    1. Re:Reverse OCR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A way to test if someone is a computer or a human?

  4. Philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Freinds, I ask you, "what is a school bus?" can anyone truly say what a school bus is?

    1. Re:Philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a bus that drives kids to school or a bus owned or operated by a school.

      Next question, please.

    2. Re:Philosophy by kruach+aum · · Score: 1

      I've seen a school bus in porn that neither drives kids to school nor is it owned or operated by one. Next definition.

    3. Re:Philosophy by skids · · Score: 1

      Yeah, who's to say the AI wasn't just seeing something we can't. Obviously aliens beamed a subliminal picture of a schoolbus into the TV static and the AI said Oh, a schoolbus!

      When, Lord?! When the hell do I get to see the goddamn schoolbus?

    4. Re:Philosophy by TWX · · Score: 1

      Then it's not a school bus. It might look like a school bus, it might even once have been a school bus, but generally to be a school bus it needs to be used for the purposes of hauling students to and from school, or to be frequently used in that capacity.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    5. Re:Philosophy by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 0

      Is this a school bus?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    6. Re:Philosophy by kruach+aum · · Score: 1

      Now all we've learned is that you define school bus in an idiosyncratic way, which already differs from the one I replied to (that definition stipulated that school buses also need to be owned or operated by a school). And if we ask 10 more people, we're going to find 10 more definitions, and I'm sure I can think of counter examples to all of them (for example, your definition would include parent-driven SUVs or any other kind of car frequently used to move children to and from school, which definitely doesn't count). Nevertheless, school buses exist, and there are vehicles that are definitely school buses. Maybe the problem is not with school buses, but with definitions.

    7. Re:Philosophy by Livius · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the no true schoolbus fallacy.

    8. Re:Philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is humans are juts as crap at distinguishing between schoolhouses and random nonsense as AI?

    9. Re:Philosophy by TWX · · Score: 1

      Except that a person has free will to self-identify, at least to an extent. There can be obvious delusion like Ugundan President Idi Amin, but it's fairly easy to say that a man born and/or raised in Scotland and who self-identifies with the culture of Scotland is probably a Scotsman, and even those men that don't self-identify but whose cultural perspectives derive from an upbringing in Scotland are still Scotsmen whether they want to be or not. Craig Ferguson holds American citizenship, but he's a Scotsman. John Barrowman is known as an American actor to American audiences, and even to most audiences in the UK, but he was born and raised in Scotland and speaks with a Scottish accent equally comfortably with his later-learned American accent.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    10. Re:Philosophy by mcswell · · Score: 1

      Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

  5. seems a lot like human vision to me by shadowrat · · Score: 2

    idk, these results seem more similar to how humans see than they do different. When people don't know exactly what they are looking at, the brain just puts in it's best guess. people certainly see faces and other familiar objects in tv static. They see bigfoot in a collection of shadows or a strange angle on a bear. i even feel like i did sort of see a peacock in the one random image labeled peacock. it's sort of like the computer vision version of a rorschach test.

    1. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much this is what I was thinking.

      Just dial down the algorithm that detects things precisely and we are gold.

      Let's just hope nobody dresses a bus up as a bee.

    2. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we see animals in clouds or faces in static, our confidence level is low. We are not 99% certain that we are seeing an actual animal or person. We're more like 0% sure because we instantly recognize it as a "cloud" or "tv static".

    3. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Beck_Neard · · Score: 2

      It might be similar but it's not the same mechanism. When you see an object in static, your brain knows that it's just making a guess so the guess is assigned low confidence. But here they showed that you can actually design a picture that looks random but is assigned very high confidence of being an object.

      This type of phenomenon is very well known. It's not news, people have known about this sort of stuff in artificial neural nets since the 80's. I guess they just sort of assumed that deep belief nets would get around this problem, but as far as I know there's no reason to believe that. There's a related phenomenon which is assigning very low confidence to a picture that is very clearly a certain class of object - and then if you add a small bit of noise the confidence goes way up. For the interested, this is a good page which explains why some of these issues happen: http://colah.github.io/posts/2...

      Just one thing I want to get off my chest: I wish this deep learning fad would die. I first started using deep belief nets around 2006 or so when Hinton published his now-infamous Science paper. I thought it was cool and used it a lot, but I knew it had limitations. Then around 2012 or so this whole thing just started becoming a hugely-hyped meme that everyone wants to get on board, without any knowledge or wisdom - they just want results. This is going to be a recipe for yet another AI "failure", when people realize that they couldn't live up to their own hype.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    4. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I think it was fairly clear what was going on, the neural networks latch on to conditions that are necessary but not sufficient because they found common characteristics of real images but never got any negative feedback. Like in the peacock photo the colors and pattern are similar, but clearly not in the shape of a bird but if it's never seen any non-bird peacock colored items how's the algorithm supposed to know? At any rate, it seems like the neural network is excessively focusing on one thing, maybe it would perform better if you divided up the work so one factor didn't become dominant. For example you send outlines to one network, textures to a second network and colors to a third network then using a fourth network to try learning which of the other three to listen to. After all, the brain has very clear centers too, it's not just one big chunk of goo.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But here they showed that you can actually design a picture that looks random but is assigned very high confidence of being an object.

      So... the AI is like those Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwich people?

    6. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by nine-times · · Score: 2

      When people don't know exactly what they are looking at, the brain just puts in it's best guess. people certainly see faces and other familiar objects in tv static. They see bigfoot in a collection of shadows or a strange angle on a bear.

      Yes, I think it's very interesting when you look at Figure 4 here. They almost look like they could be an artist's interpretation of the things they're supposed to be, or a similarity that a person might pick up on subconsciously. The ones that look like static may just be the AI "being stupid", but I think the comparison to human optical illusions is an interesting one. We see faces because we have a bias to see them. Faces are very important to participating in social activities, since they give many cues to another person's emotions and intentions. It's a whole form of communication. A lot of other sensory biases and reactions are related to things like finding food, avoiding predators, and understanding potentially dangerous obstacles (e.g. if I step here, am I going to fall down?).

      So if these are optical illusions for computers, what are the computer's biases based on? The computer isn't trying to find food or avoid predators, so what is it "trying to do" when it "sees"?

    7. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not universally. Most UFO, ghost, etc. sightings are someone reporting with high certainty that the saw something the probably didn't.

    8. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      I think it was fairly clear what was going on, the neural networks latch on to conditions that are necessary but not sufficient because they found common characteristics of real images but never got any negative feedback.

      You seem to be suggesting that it is 'simply' a case of overfitting, but overfitting is a problem that has been recognized for some time. I don't doubt that the developers of these networks have thought long and hard about the issue, so this study suggests that it is a hard and as-yet unsolved problem in this domain.

      One thing that humans use, but which these systems do not seem to have developed, is a fairly consistent theory of reality. Combine this with analytical reasoning, and we can take a difficult image and either work out what is being depicted, or realize that we are not succeeding in doing so.

    9. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      i even feel like i did sort of see a peacock in the one random image labeled peacock.

      I know what you mean, but did you see a peacock before you read the label?

    10. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Procrasti · · Score: 1

      These are Deep Neural Networks, not Deep Belief Networks... I think DBNs might be able to calculate a novelty metric that DNNs aren't capable of calculating... This might enable them to say that an image is unlike anything it has been trained on, and therefore lower the confidence of the rating, and so, may not be vulnerable to this problem.

      Of course, no one has managed to train a DBN to be as successful at the ImageNet problems as DNNs, so there's still some way to go before this hypothesis can be tested.

    11. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      The distinction between deep belief networks (based on graphical models) and deep neural networks (based on perceptions and backprop) is an imprecise one. You could argue that DNNs are just a subtype of DBNs, and yes, the only 'successful' DBNs so far have been DNNs. When people speak of DBNs they almost always mean DNNs.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    12. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by Procrasti · · Score: 1

      DNNs are generally consist of (ignoring convolution and max-pooling) rectified linear units trained with back propagation...

      DBNs are basically stacked RBM autoencoders using binary stochastic units.

      So, while people may basically mean the same thing, I don't think they are... DNNs create hyperplanes that carve up the input space, and while DBNs actually do the same thing, you can calculate an 'entropy' or 'energy level' between layers... with familiar images being low energy and novel images having high energy... therefore, you have a novelty metric, and can use that to scale the final classification confidence... they 'should' (conjecture) therefore be more robust.

      Unfortunately DBNs haven't yet scaled to the level to do well in these image classification tasks... but it would be interesting to see if such adversarial image creation generates more familiar looking digits on a DBN trained on MNIST as opposed to a DNN... or more correctly if a DBN can be made to do this... where there's basically no hope with a DNN.

    13. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The computer isn't trying to find food or avoid predators, so what is it "trying to do" when it "sees"

      Fortunately we know this because we (in the general sense) designed the algorithms.

      It's trying very specifically to get a good score on the MINST or ImageNet datasets. Anything far away from the data results in funny results. I'm not being glib. This results in the following:

      One generally assumes that the data lies on some low dimensional manifold of the 256x256 dimensional space (for 256x256 greyscale images). This is reasonable: a 256^2 sized space is very, very large.

      A neural net essentially warps the crap out of the space, projects up into higher dimensions, warps the crap out of it again (and so on) and eventually places down a linear classifier. Things one side of a hyperplane belong to one class, things the other side belong to another class.

      Or, if you prefer, it places some curved decision boundary down in the original space.

      Things that are close to the decision boundary generally get low confidence, because it is hard to decide which side of the boundary they really lie.

      Points far, far away from the boundary are classified with a high confidence because there is no ambiguity. Because it's far away you can move the datapoint around quite a bit and it will STILL be the same side of the boundary.

      The thing is, the algorithm only optimizes the boundary near by to the datapoints it's trained with because that's what it's trying to do: optimize the performance on the training data.

      If you generate a random datapoint, it will be far, far away from the manifold that the training data lies on, and therefore likely far, far away from the decision boundary. As a result, it winds up in a completely arbitrary class but with really high confidence.

      People have made efforts to try to figure out when a point is too far away from anything and classify it as "unknown". However, this is tricky. Firstly NNs and other learning algorithms, like SVMs and boosting (i.e anything involving a linear classifier in a warped space) try tp push the training datapoints as far from the boundary as possible, because points too near are uncertainly classified.

      Secondly, high dimensional spaces are unimaginably sparse so there's the rather irritating tendency for nothing to be near anything else.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    14. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I think I understand... vaguely. To simplify, you're saying it's been trained on a specific dataset, and it chooses whichever image in the dataset the input is most like. It doesn't really have the ability to choose "unknown" and must choose an image from the dataset that it's most like. Its "confidence" in the choice is not really based on similarity to the image it has chosen, but instead based on dissimilarity to any of the other images. Therefore, when you give it garbage, it chooses the image that it's most similar to, and it gives a high confidence rating because it doesn't resemble anything else.

      Is that about the gist? I'm probably not going to understand things about higher dimensions without a lot of additional information.

      But if I'm on the right track on that, do you foresee a possible solution being reached by feeding it a very large dataset? Or is there basically no possibility of it handling a dataset big enough? Like if you gave it enough computing power and fed it all of Google images, would that help to solve the issue?

      I ask because, though I understand computers, I'm not remotely an expert in current AI approaches and theory, but I do know a fair bit about philosophy and psychology, and I suspect that the idea of optical illusions and biases are going to be really import AI image recognition, and not just as "an obstacle to be overcome". I think people misunderstand and think that the optical illusions are examples of our vision and perception "being dumb" because we're seeing things incorrectly, but on the contrary, it's often caused by our perception being very smart/efficient at seeing particular things. Our image processing is (loosely speaking) built to see the things that were important to our survival and to disregard things that don't matter. That's how it works. So I would suspect that in "training" an image recognition system, it would be important to think about what the AI is looking for.

      Because, you know, when we see a school bus, we don't simply associate the image with the words "school bus". We also recognize it as a method of transportation, as a possible source of danger (if you're standing in front of it when it's moving), and we might associate it with various memories and feelings that we had regarding school during our formative years. When we see a painting of a school bus, we understand it not only as an image of a school bus, but a painting, a work of expression which might have meaning beyond its literal content.

      Maybe it seems like I'm going off on a complete tangent here, but I think it's worth understanding that seeing and understanding images, and linking them to meaning, might be more complicated than being able to accurately compare it to other images and find correlation of shape and color.

    15. Re:seems a lot like human vision to me by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I think I understand... vaguely. To simplify, you're saying it's been trained on a specific dataset, and it chooses whichever image in the dataset the input is most like.

      A bit.

      It's easier to imagine in 2D. Imagine you have a bunch of height/weigt measurements and a lable telling you whether a person is overweight. Plot them on a graph, and you will see that in one corner people are generally overweight and in another corner, they are not.

      If you have a new pair of measurements come along with no label, you could just find the closest height/weight pair and use that. That is in fact a nearest neighbour classifier. It works, except that you need to keep all the original data around.

      If you imagine taking 1000 points along the two axes (1,000,000 in total) you could classify each of them according to who is nearest. If you do that you can see that there is more or less a line separating the two groups.

      Machine learning is generally the process of finding that line, or an approximation to it somehow.

      The DNNs don't find the nearest neighbour explicitly: they just tell you which side of the line a given input is on. They also have a bunch of domain specific knowledge buit in because we know something about the shape of the line, which helps find it. For example, image objects may be scaled up or down in size or distorted in a variety of ways.

      Is that about the gist? I'm probably not going to understand things about higher dimensions without a lot of additional information.

      The answer is in fact tied into dimensionality. In the 2D example, you can cover the whole space with 1,000,000 points. In 3D to do the same, you need 1,000,000,000. Beyond that the numbers rapidly become completely infeasible.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  6. So, useless then? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    For example, DNNs look at TV static and declare with 99.99% confidence it is a school bus.

    Unless it's static of an image of a school bus, these things sound utterly useless.

    According to TFS, Charlie Brown is a schoolbus.

    It's OK, if AI is this stupid, we need not worry about it taking over any time soon.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:So, useless then? by vux984 · · Score: 1

      It's OK, if AI is this stupid, we need not worry about it taking over any time soon.

      Or that when it takes over it will make catastrophically bad decisions for us.

    2. Re:So, useless then? by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      > It's OK, if AI is this stupid, we need not worry about it taking over any time soon.

      If only that worked for congress.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    3. Re:So, useless then? by itzly · · Score: 1

      Depends on what you mean by "soon". In the early '80s people were laughing about computers trying to play chess. In the late '90s, a (large) computer beat the world champion in a match. Today, a smartphone could do the same. Humans make silly mistakes with optical illusions too, by the way.

    4. Re:So, useless then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like for example catastrophically bad voting decisions? Don't worry, it can't go any worse than regular people.

    5. Re:So, useless then? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      We've kept the feds gridlocked 3 out of 4 years for the last few decades. Best we can do.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:So, useless then? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You're off by about a decade. I was playing chess on machines like Boris, and Chess Challenger back in those days. And while they were easy for a serious chess player to beat, they'd typically beat a novice. This is from http://www.computerhistory.org...

      Until the mid-1970s, playing computer chess was the privilege of a few people with access to expensive computers at work or school. The availability of home computers, however, allowed anyone to play chess against a machine.

      The first microprocessor-based chess programs were produced by hobbyists who shared information openly through computer clubs and magazines. As computer chess became commercialized, the increased investment in programming and marketing produced better programs and a larger audience. Even beginning chess players could learn and improve their game without the need for a human opponent.

      The sophistication of microprocessor-based chess software had improved so much by the mid-1980s that these systems began winning tournaments against supercomputer-based programs and even top-ranked human players.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    7. Re:So, useless then? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      In the early '80s people were laughing about computers trying to play chess.

      Were they? I'm not sure they were laughing about it. By the early 90s you could buy rather slick chess computers which had a board with sensors under each square (pressure in the cheap ones, magnetic in the fancy ones), and LEDs up each side to indicate row/column.

      You could play them at chess and they'd tell you their moves by flashing the row/column lights. Those weren't just programs by that stage they were full blown integrated consumer products. Of course they would get thrashed by a sufficiently good player then.

      A concrete idea of a chess playing computer (people had always imagined such things, the mechanical Turk being a hoax based on such an idea) came up in 1946, when Zuse actually wrote a program for it (untested).

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  7. Speech recognition still sucks by Russ1642 · · Score: 1

    My composter helped me wreck a nice beach.

  8. This is old news by kruach+aum · · Score: 1

    Here is an article from Vice of all places about this research, from June http://motherboard.vice.com/re...

    Research paper here: http://cs.nyu.edu/~zaremba/doc...

    Also, a funny video demonstrating the rudimental nature of nintendo ds brain training pattern recognition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  9. Computers are not as smart as humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What we need is also a statistical analysis tool separate from the machine vision neural net that says to the AI:
    "Dumbass this is static"

    1. Re:Computers are not as smart as humans by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      And then we also need a Red Forman translation tool to translate the message sent to the A.I.:
      "This is static, dumbass!"

  10. "Success"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting way of communicating an actual failure as a success. While these algorithms reportedly detect a few things correctly (speech, objects in images...) they also "see things" that do not exist, much like certain psychiatric patients do. In this sense they are a giant leap forward, an important objective remains to achieve--distinguish between reality and illusion.

  11. What's a school bus? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    e.g. a school bus is alternating yellow and black lines, but does not need to have a windshield or wheels

    Then this is also a school bus.

  12. B-b-b-but Slashdot said...! by babymac · · Score: 1

    I have been assured many, many times by the experts of Slashdot that computers are nowhere near achieving artificial intelligence.

    --
    "War makes me sad." - Me
    1. Re:B-b-b-but Slashdot said...! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I have been assured many, many times by the experts of Slashdot that computers are nowhere near achieving artificial intelligence.

      er... and?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  13. Fixing title for you by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Research Highlights How a Deep Neural Network Trained With Deep Learning Sees and How It Knows What It's Looking At

    There, fixed that for you.

    Why is using the term "AI" wrong in this headline?
    #001: Because industry experts don't agree on what AI is
    #010: Because most of the definitions of AI are much broader than what the article is talking about
    #011: Because at least one definition of AI says something like "if it exists today, it's not AI" - including "beyond the capability of current computers" or something similar as a defining condition of the term "AI"

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  14. Also... by raftpeople · · Score: 2

    If the network was trained to always return a "best match" then it's working correctly. To return "no image", it would need to be trained to be able to return that, just like humans are given feedback when there is no image.

    1. Re:Also... by jfengel · · Score: 1

      It's not just returning a matched image, though. It's also returning a confidence level, and in the cases they've discovered, it's returning 100% confidence. That's clearly wrong.

    2. Re:Also... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      It's also returning a confidence level, and in the cases they've discovered, it's returning 100% confidence. That's clearly wrong.

      What, you've never been SURE you were right, and then later found out you were wrong?

      Nothing wrong with being wrong with confidence. Sounds like the majority of humanity the majority of the time.

      Now, does this mean that the AI is useful? Well, it's useful for finding out why it's 100% certain, but wrong. In the field, not so much.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very true, our reasoning is 98% unconcious it's foolish to believe we are logical and rational thinkers.

    4. Re:Also... by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      Nothing wrong with being wrong with confidence. Sounds like the majority of humanity the majority of the time.

      Right, and it has created a great deal of misery throughout human history. Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is not a problem.

      More specifically, the overconfidence displayed by the networks here should lead to a corresponding skepticism, in a rational observer, to the notion that they have cracked the image recognition problem.

    5. Re:Also... by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      If the network was trained to always return a "best match" then it's working correctly. To return "no image", it would need to be trained to be able to return that, just like humans are given feedback when there is no image.

      It seems highly unlikely that such an elementary mistake was made: "Clune used one of the best DNNs, called AlexNet, created by researchers at the University of Toronto, Canada, in 2012 – its performance is so impressive that Google hired them last year."

      The fact that the net returns a confidence level implies that it does have a way to return a result of 'not recognized'.

    6. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love a good rationalist who thinks we should be tossing out evolved traits because he/she doesn't like them for modern humans without fully understanding why they were selected.

    7. Re:Also... by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Nothing wrong with being wrong with confidence. Sounds like the majority of humanity the majority of the time.

      Oh, it definitely sounds like the majority of humanity the majority of the time. I just don't think it's one of our more admirable traits.

      In our case, it's necessary, because we evolved with mediocre brains. I'd like to see our successors do better. They aren't yet, which is what this article is pointing out. This promising system isn't ready yet. It's just not wrong for the reasons that the GGP post thought.

  15. Decent backpack actually by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    I know how they created the images, so I know its not really an image of a backpack really so much as static that has been messed with by someone in photoshop....however, if you showed me that, backpack would be high on my list of guesses.

    That one really does look to me like someone washed out an image of a backpack with static.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  16. Clickbait by preaction · · Score: 2

    a DNN is only interested in the parts of an object that most distinguish it from others.

    So it needs to learn that these exact images are tricks being played on it, so it can safely ignore it. This is exactly what machine learning is. What's the story?

    1. Re:Clickbait by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      They tried that, but it didn't make a huge difference (the resulting network was still easily 'fooled' with similar images).

      The big thing to realize here is that the algorithm that generates the fooling images specifically creates highly regular images ("images [that] look like modern, abstract art". The repeated patterns are very distracting to the human eye, whereas the DNN pretty much ignores them. See figure 10 in the paper (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.1897v1.pdf ). It is necessary to take into account that the training set almost exclusively contains images of entire objects, not of patterns on that object. Presented with the 'evolved' school bus image, a human would probably say 'bee' or 'wasp' before school bus if forced to make a guess. The DNN, however, has never seen a close-up of the backside of a bee. I'm 99% confident that if you'd add closeups of patterns found on the classes in the ImageNet database, the DNN would be far less easily fooled.

      Also, when removing a number of the top and bottom repetitions in the school bus example, a human could very well guess 'school bus', given the following question:
      "Out of these 1000 object classes, which one does this image show?"
      1000 different classes is ridiculously far away from the number of different visual concepts a human can distinguish.

    2. Re:Clickbait by Entrope · · Score: 1

      The researchers also basically cheated by "training" their distractor images on a fixed neural network. People have known for decades that a fixed/known neural network is easy to fool; what varies is exactly how you can fool it. The only novel finding here is their method for finding images that fool DNNs in practice -- but the chances are overwhelmingly high that a different DNN, trained on the same training set, would not make the same mistake (and perhaps not make any mistake, by assigning a low probability for all classes). It is a useful reminder for some security analyses, but not a useful indictment of AI or DNNs as a whole.

    3. Re:Clickbait by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      So it needs to learn that these exact images are tricks being played on it, so it can safely ignore it.

      No. Learning that the "exact images" presented here are tricks would not be a solution to the problem revealed by this study. The goal in any form of machine learning is software that can effectively extrapolate beyond the training set.

      What's the story?

      Once you understand the problem, you will see what the story is.

    4. Re:Clickbait by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The researchers also basically cheated by "training" their distractor images on a fixed neural network.

      That's hardly fair: they were trying to find images that fooled the network. What better way to do that than feeding images in until you find a good one (with derivatives).

      The only novel finding here is their method for finding images that fool DNNs in practice -- but the chances are overwhelmingly high that a different DNN, trained on the same training set, would not make the same mistake (and perhaps not make any mistake, by assigning a low probability for all classes).

      Probably not, but it would stil lclassify the images as something random, probably with high confidence.

      and perhaps not make any mistake, by assigning a low probability for all classes

      Not likely: there's no good ways yet for these systems to return such information when it it very, far away from s decision boundary. A way of doing that reliably would be a significant breakthrough.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Clickbait by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Why was my characterization of their approach "hardly fair"? Someone -- either the researchers or their press people -- decided to hype it as finding a general failing in DNNs (or "AI" as a whole). The failure mode is known, and their particular failure modes are tailored to one particular network (rather than even just one training set). I think the "hardly fair" part is the original hyperbole, and my response is perfectly appropriate to that. The research is not at all what it is sold as.

      Don't multi-class identification networks typically have independent output ANNs, so that several can have high scores? I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the 99+% measures they cited were cases where only one output class had a high score, and the rest were low. If they were effectively using single-class identifiers, either in fact or by considering only the maximum score in a multi-class identifier, that makes their findings even less notable.

    6. Re:Clickbait by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Why was my characterization of their approach "hardly fair"?

      You called it cheating.

      Someone -- either the researchers or their press people -- decided to hype it as finding a general failing in DNNs (or "AI" as a whole).

      It pretty much is. If you input some data far away from the training set you'll wind up at a completely arbitrary point in the decision boundary.

      The research is not at all what it is sold as.

      The research shows very nicely that the much-hyped deep learning systems are no different in many ways from everything that's come before. They have a few lovely illustrations of things that fool it, some of which are what you'd get if you follow the decision boundary a good way from the data, rather than jumping in at a random point.

      I'd say there's not a huge amount novel in the research, but it's certainly not cheating.

      Don't multi-class identification networks typically have independent output ANNs, so that several can have high scores?

      My understaning is that they usually have one output node per class, but the previous layers are all common to the different classes.

      I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the 99+% measures they cited were cases where only one output class had a high score, and the rest were low.

      I'd expect that too.

      If they were effectively using single-class identifiers, either in fact or by considering only the maximum score in a multi-class identifier,

      Isn't that uisually how it's done? You have a bunch of outputs the strength of which indicates class/not class for a bunch of classes, then you take max over them to find out which class is dominant. Most ML algorithms are generalised to multiclass by using a one-versus-all or one-versus-one system like that (usually the former since the latter hasa quadratic cost).

      Only a relatively few (e.g. trees and therefore forests) naturally support multiple classes.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    7. Re:Clickbait by Entrope · · Score: 1

      I called it cheating because they violated both one of the prime rules of AI: train on a data set that is more or less representative of the data set you will test with, and one of the prime rules of statistics: do not apply a priori statistical analysis when you iterate with feedback based on the thing you estimated. Their test images are intentionally much different from the training images, which is one of the first things an undergraduate course on AI will talk about. They also use what are essentially a priori estimates after they repeatedly tweak the inputs to push those estimates to extremes, which is identified as taboo in decent undergraduate courses on statistics. Both of those are intentional violations of good practices that make the results look worse for the neural networks.

      I can't tell from their paper what they mean by "99% confidence". Unless the DNN has max-pooling layers very near the output, none or many of the output units might have high activation levels for a given input. (It sounds like they had classes with low typical activation levels, and did not try to evolve fooling images for those classes.) If that happens -- say, "wheel" gets a score of 0.99, "lizard" gets 0.90, "dog" gets 0.80, and everything else is near zero -- then it is inappropriate to say that the network decided it was a wheel with 99% certainty. You would usually say that the network recognized the image as a wheel, but note it as an ambiguous result.

    8. Re:Clickbait by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I called it cheating because they violated both one of the prime rules of AI: train on a data set that is more or less representative of the data set you will test with, and one of the prime rules of statistics

      But they're not trying to do that. They're trying to debunk the claims of "near human" performance, which they do very nicely by showing that the algorithms make vast numbers of mistakes when the data in is not very, very close to the original data.

      They also present a good way of finding amusing failure cases. I'd never thought of optimizing misclassifications to find how and where an algorithm fails.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  17. Not smart or stupid by TheMiddleRoad · · Score: 1

    These are computer programs, not artificial intelligences as some have come to think of them. They are simply some charges flipping around in some chips. There is no seeing or recognizing in human terms. We apply all that consciousness crap.

    In this case, the neural networks are randomly formed nets that match up a few pixels here and there then spit out a result. There is no seeing. Increase the complexity a thousand times over and there will still be no seeing, but there might, might, might be less shitting processing with fewer bizarre results.

    As John Searle said, brains make minds.

    Everything else is just speculating.

    1. Re:Not smart or stupid by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      These are computer programs, not artificial intelligences as some have come to think of them. They are simply some charges flipping around in some chips.

      And minds are just charges flipping around in some brain (at one level of abstraction, it is chemical, but chemistry is explained by the movement of charges.)

      As John Searle said, brains make minds.

      Everything else is just speculating.

      If you look at John Searle's arguments in detail, they ultimately end up as nothing more than "I can't believe that this is just physics." Searle's view is actually rather more speculative than the one he rejects, as it implies an unknown extension to atomic physics.

      Nevertheless, none of what I write here should be construed as a claim that artificial intelligence has been achieved.

    2. Re:Not smart or stupid by TheMiddleRoad · · Score: 1

      Brains are charges and chemistry, but minds are something else, though clearly connected. Brains make minds, we know that. There is no reason to think that anything else can make a mind. There are some philosophers who say that a thermostat has a mind, but that's pretty clearly bullshit. These neural nets are simply primitive and chaotic data filters. Yes, at some point an AI will be able to convince us that it is concious, but there will be no reason to think it is anything but a parlor trick. Until we discover what minds are and how brains make minds, it's all speculation and guesswork.

      And Searle doesn't every say, "I can't believe it's just physics." That's just an insult. He says that we don't know the physics of brains, but we know the effects.

  18. Actually a Great Step Forward by DumbSwede · · Score: 1

    Computer learns to pick out salient features to identify images. Then we are shocked that when trained with no supervision the salient features aren’t what we would have chosen.

    I see this as a great ah-ha moment. Humans also have visual systems that can be tricked by optical illusions. The patterns presented while seemingly incomprehensible to us make sense to computers for the same reason our optical illusions do to us -- taking short cuts in visual processing that would fire on patterns not often or ever seen in the real world. Which BTW means even as is, this type of visual identification is still useful, since the random images generating false hits aren’t just any random images, but ones that have visual features similar to the targets identified, even if we humans can’t see the similarities or even if they look like white noise.

    Now that we know what computers are picking out as salient features, we can modify the algorithms to add additional constraints on what additional salient features must or must not be in an object identified, such that it would correspond more closely to how humans would classify objects. Baseball’s must have curvature for instance not just zig-zag red lines on white.

    1. Re:Actually a Great Step Forward by Entrope · · Score: 1

      The neural networks in question were absolutely trained with supervision. Unsupervised learning is a quite different thing.

    2. Re:Actually a Great Step Forward by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      Computer learns to pick out salient features to identify images. Then we are shocked that when trained with no supervision the salient features aren’t what we would have chosen.

      There is a huge difference: humans pick relevant features guided by a deep understanding of the world, while machine learning, unguided by any understanding, only does so by chance.

      Now that we know what computers are picking out as salient features, we can modify the algorithms to add additional constraints on what additional salient features must or must not be in an object identified, such that it would correspond more closely to how humans would classify objects. Baseballs must have curvature for instance not just zig-zag red lines on white.

      Hand-coded fixes are not AI - that would be as if we have we had a higher-level intelligent agent in our heads to correct our mistakes (see the homunculus fallacy).

  19. Can't you just call it broken? by rnturn · · Score: 1

    I mean an AI that looks at static and says it's a school bus 99.99% of the time seems to be about as broken as could be. The researchers have to be the most optimistic folks in the world if they still think there's a pony in there. I'd be seriously thinking about scrapping the software (or, at least, looking for a bad coding error) and/or looking for an entirely new algorithm after achieving results that bad.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    1. Re:Can't you just call it broken? by snkline · · Score: 1

      It doesn't see a school bus in static 99.99% of the time, the percentage is a measure in the confidence measure of the ANN. Given certain images of static the program will say "I am 99.99% confident that is a school bus".

    2. Re:Can't you just call it broken? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Just like we see faces in other images of static.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  20. There is no such thing as AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are SIMULATIONS of intelligence, but there is, and never will be, such a thing as "artificial intelligence".

    An electronic switch knows nothing. A massive piles of electronic switches cannot know something. Replacing those switches with vacuum tubes or transistors does not change the equation, it only makes the mess more efficient.

    There is a HUGE difference between STORING bits (and sorting and manipulating them) and UNDERSTANDING what those bits ARE and what they REPRESENT. You can teach a system to associtate images of balls with the dictionaly entry "ball", but the computer will KNOW nothing about balls, not understand balls, not KNOW what balls can be used for etc and at best will just have links to other dictionary entris for things like "toy" "rubber" "roll" "bearings" etc all of which the computer will also not understand. Genetic systems and AI systems are perfectly useful for many tasks, but they have NOTHING in common with actual intelligence.

    This is, in fact, what makes the field of "Artificial Intelligence" so very dangerous in the long-term: people build these systems and can assign them tasks and easily forget that these systems are not actually intelligent at all, lacking entirely ANY sence of understanding and therefore also lacking anything like "common sense" and morals. You might THINK your AI system is flying your plane because it understands flight and weather etc but it might be judging what to do with the ailerons based on a pile of statistical alignments of sky color tones, accellerometer readings influenced by the movement of passengers and flight attendants, and some collection of data about the cargo manifest all of which might be just right on the first 1000 flights before being just a little wrong on flight 1001...

    1. Re:There is no such thing as AI by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      and never will be

      How could you possibly know that?

      An electronic switch knows nothing. A massive piles of electronic switches cannot know something.

      A neuron knows nothing, and yet a "massive pile" of neurons can know, understand, imagine, lie, cheat, steal, love, hate, and dream.

      AI may not be here yet, but it's practically inevitable.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:There is no such thing as AI by Russ1642 · · Score: 1

      A few neurons don't 'know' anything either. Neither do a dozen neurons. Tens of billions of neurons however... Anyway, you'll be the one looking like a complete tard in fifty years when AI is working well and is considered one of mankinds greatest achievements. (fusion power however will still be twenty years away)

    3. Re:There is no such thing as AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few neurons don't 'know' anything either.

      Actually I don't think we know that at all. An individual cell like a neuron is an incredibly complicated machine in itself, nothing like the simplistic gate models used in neural net software. A single cell has a complicated internal structure of microtubules and organelles which move around and impart motion to the cell - consider the plasticity of neurons or, to name just one example of complex behavior, the fact that a macrophage (white blood cell) "stalks" and shoots out an "arm" (pseudopodia) of membrane to envelop "prey" of bacteria and foreign bodies before digesting them. Then there's a huge number of biochemical pathways and reactions and all the complexity of the nucleus and DNA/RNA memory and transcription. And every neuron has a large number of interconnections with other neurons. Synapses in themselves are enormously complicated.

      A single cell is more like a hugely complicated analogue computer in itself. And we don't have a clue what consciousness or self-awareness actually is. Can a small number of cells be "conscious" in some sense? We don't know. We know very little.

    4. Re:There is no such thing as AI by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      One of you two will look like a tard. My money would be on you.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  21. "Knows" what its looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess its time for me to thrown out my dictionary, all words seem to have changed their meaning.

    1. Re:"Knows" what its looking at? by mcswell · · Score: 1

      I guess if your dictionary said "(to) thrown" is a verb, then yes, you ought to throw it out.

  22. Distilled images by DonCam · · Score: 1

    I think this distillation by a neural network could also prove useful for making new icons and symbols though. Could prove useful in a reverse application by using them to break down stuff, have a human review it, and modify it back again into something recognizable by us on a more fundamental level.

  23. I see the gorilla. by geantvert · · Score: 1

    In the pictures from the last link, I clearly see the gorilla and the backpack.

    Those images remind me of what you get with some edge-detection filters commonly used to enhance image features.

  24. Art. by troll · · Score: 1

    Think of the global implications to surrealism!

    --
    Official Pi Ambassador -- inquire for details!
  25. Image processing; LIDAR; ADAS perspective by volvox_voxel · · Score: 2

    I've done some image processing work.. It seems to me that you can take the output of this Neural network and correlate it with some other image processing routines, like feature detection, feature meteorology, etc; A conditional probability based decision chain,etc.

    I work on a LIDAR sensor meant for Anti-. I work at a start-up that makes 3D laser-radar vision sensors for robotics and autonomous vehicles /anti-collision avoidance. The other day, I learned that such sensors allow robots to augment their camera vision systems to have a better understanding of their environment. It turns out that it's still an unsolved problem for a computer vision systems to unambiguously recognize that it's looking at a bird or a cat, and can only give you probabilities.. A LIDAR sensor instantly gives you a depth measurement out to several hundred meters that you can correlate your images to . The computer can combine the color information, along with depth information to have a much better idea of what it's looking at. For an anti-collision avoidance system, it has to be certain what it's looking at, and that cameras alone aren't good enough. I find it pretty exciting to be working on something that is useful for AI (artificial intelligence) research. One guy I work with got his Ph.D using Microsoft's Kinect sensor, which is something that gives robots depth perception for close-up environments..

    “In the 60s, Marvin Minsky (a well known AI researcher from MIT, whom Isaac Asimov considered one of the smartest people he ever met) assigned a couple of undergrads to spend the summer programming a computer to use a camera to identify objects in a scene. He figured they'd have the problem solved by the end of the summer. Half a century later, we're still working on it.”

    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ta...

    1. Re:Image processing; LIDAR; ADAS perspective by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I've done some image processing work.. It seems to me that you can take the output of this Neural network and correlate it with some other image processing routines, like feature detection, feature meteorology, etc;

      If you look at the convolutions learned in the bottom layers, you typically end up with a bunch that look awfully like Gabor filters. In other words, it's learning a feature detection stage and already doing that.

      Some sort of depth sensing certainly does help.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Image processing; LIDAR; ADAS perspective by mcswell · · Score: 1

      My first guess (I don't claim any expertise) is that a visual recognition system by itself, without some kind of world model, is doomed to fail.

      Putting it differently, I think I would not do well on recognizing arbitrary sorts of images if I didn't have some idea what those images corresponded to in the real world. Photomicrographs of structures I don't know about from experience, for example.

      On the other hand, numerals don't correspond to anything in the real world, and the linked-to website had examples where the vision system seemed to be hallucinating numerals in static. I don't think I can claim to have a model of what numerals are in the real world.

  26. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well this isn't going to work as a stegnographic method. Evryone out there can implement the same dnn. Hmmm and you mean you canget a paper/phdmsc withthis?

  27. Part of smart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a part of intelligence and it is artificial. It is not an "AI" as an entity, but it definitely is Artificial Intelligence. Every "AI" in the mythological sense you seem to think of will have to use such or similar mechanisms for seeing, just as we do.

    And I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to engineer more parts of an "AI" by these or similar technologies. At some point you'll find it to be harder and harder to say if there's something that REALLY sees and thinks or not. The trouble with AI is not only that we have only poor tools to engineer one, but also that we only have a very rough idea of what "intelligence" actually is or should mean. Trying to recreate it or parts of it is definitely a great way to learn more about it. Also, it's perfectly possible that we can take approaches that biology just can't take for some reason. Like the wheel that nature didn't come up with and still it allows us to move faster than any animal could.

    "Brains make minds", yes. They will, sooner or later. There are just too many tempting applications for that, we're constantly making tools to do things easier for us and thinking is really hard for many people! It also scales only badly, if at all. Very unreliable too.

    And /.: Your captchas are pathetic. I've read books that were harder to read.

  28. Teehee by Windwraith · · Score: 1

    Machines got a lot of imagination, don't they? Next thing you know you'll be looking at the clouds with your robot buddy and it'll say "99.99% chance of that cloud looking like a puppy. BEEP". Oooorrrrr maybe a school bus, but you get what I mean.

    Oh right I forgot this is Slashdot. MACHINES WILL DOMINATE US HELP. Peasants. Not like this display of reality will stop the rampart paranoia of people that works with computers and machines all day long... ...
    ironic.

    1. Re:Teehee by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1
      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  29. Training classifiers require "rejectable" samples by StephenBenoit · · Score: 2

    The DNN examples were apparently trained to discriminate between a members of a labeled set. This only works when you have already cleaned up the input stream (a priori) and guarantee that the image must be an example of one of the classes.

    These classifiers were not trained on samples from outside the target set. This causes a forced choice: given this random dot image, which of the classes have the highest confidence? Iterate until confidence is sufficiently high, and you have a forgery with the same features the classifier is looking for.

    For example, the digit training set (0,1,2...9) would need to be augmented with pictures of 'A', 'D', a smiley face, a doodle of a tree, a silhouette of Alfred Hitchcock and some spider webs. The resulting classifier would be more robust. The target classes (0,1,2,...9) would be counterbalanced with a null class (everything else). Looking inside the receptive fields of a robust image classifier is rather satisfying: you will find eigenimages that project back to image structures that are human recognizable, too.

    The lesson in training your classifier is to either verify your assumption (all incoming samples must be a member of the chosen classes) or train (expose) your classifier to out-of-class samples.

  30. Lying with statistics? Just lying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Figure 1 direct encoding images are recognizable to THIS human. Kudos to the DNN for picking out the small nonrandom areas and identifying them.
    If shown an image of a digit that a human would say is clearly identifiable as such, does the DNN assign a p-value of only 99.99% or does it claim FAR higher reliability? like 99.99999999999999999999%?
    Is the DNN restricted to considering just digits and not any old object? If the DNN isn't restricted to calling just digits from 0-9, are the p-values still 99.99%? Does it still call a digit over some other object (that's probably not a digit)?

  31. Further along by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

    Cool. Image recognition is far further along than I thought. It makes the same type of mistakes as humans although in a different way.
    We humans see faces in everything. Smoke, clouds and static for example. This just means that this is inherent in the attempt of recognition.

    --
    Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  32. DNNs and human behavior by mcrepairman · · Score: 1

    Since the core of tis story is fooling a DNN rather than image recognition, I wonder whether the same exercise could be repeated with DNNs tasked to recognize human behavior and build digital profiles of humans based on for example browsing habits, keywords in online communication, movement is space, etc. How does a white noise terrorist look like? What would be its indirectly encoded best representation? We tend to be scared of digital profiling because we believe that our digital representation actually looks like us. but does it really?

  33. Re:Training classifiers require "rejectable" sampl by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

    The DNN examples were apparently trained to discriminate between a members of a labeled set. This only works when you have already cleaned up the input stream (a priori) and guarantee that the image must be an example of one of the classes.

    These classifiers were not trained on samples from outside the target set.

    This is not some network hastily trained by people who are ignorant of a very basic and long-known problem: "Clune used one of the best DNNs, called AlexNet, created by researchers at the University of Toronto, Canada, in 2012 – its performance is so impressive that Google hired them last year." From a paper by the developers of AlexNet: "To reduce overfitting in the globally connected layers we employed a new regularization method that proved to be very effective."

    It does not seem plausible that this result can be explained away as an elementary mistake.

  34. Sorry, simplistic fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A neuron is a complex LIVING thing

    There is simply NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that a non-living thing can actually KNOW anything. In fact, there's not really any scientific proof that lots of neurons are all that is required for intelligence - Living intelligent creatures have and use lots of neurons, BUT that's not precisely the same thing as proof that the one creates the other.

    Saying "lots of neurons == intelligence, therefore lots of logic gates == intelligence" is about on par with saying "lots of steel == a ship therefore lots of pudding == a ship"

    Neurons are absolutely NOT a drop-in replacement for a logic gate or an OpAmp. Using a neuron harvested from a living creature as part of an electronic circuit is also not proof of anything more than the fact that it can be kludged to work; doing so does not use all of a neuron's capabilities nor does it use them properly - this is on-par with somebody using a laptop computer as a doorstop (it "works" but it's not proof that you know houw to use a laptop or that a laptop and a doorstop are the same thing.

  35. Rorschach tests for machines by PJ6 · · Score: 1

    Far from showing weakness, this study seems to demonstrate a creatively brilliant algorithm. These are very, very strong results. I am deeply impressed.

    Text recognition in white noise can be fixed with virtual saccades.

    Aside from adding "human" sensibilities (do we only want it to only recognize objects in real, photo-realistic settings, and not drawings / art?), I would say it's good to go.