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Science Cannot Prove the Existence of God
StartsWithABang writes: This past weekend, Eric Metaxas lit up the world with his bold article in the Wall Street Journal, Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God. As a scientific counterpoint, this article fully addresses three major points of that "case," including what the condition are that we need for life to arise, how rare (or common) are those conditions, and if we don't find life where we expect it, can we learn anything about God at all?
... violates how language works, when one defines a concept in language it's drawn from the environment, there is no "god" to point to in our environment. If I say house I can point to it, if I say car, I can point to it. The same cannot be said for god. The word god defines nothing, because it's definitions have no coherence in terms of the natural world. All truths are natural and drawn from the environment. This is how people 'argue' that the other persons god is wrong, they use nature. You can use nature to disprove all ancient gods and their claims about reality.
If a god like being exists, this does not justify religion in any way. The idea that 'evidence for god exists' somehow proves the doctrines of the bible or koran or any other superstitious nonsense is laughable.
"If there is a God then lie is a miracle. If there is no God then life is an even bigger miracle".
I disagree: God+life is a bigger miracle than life alone.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Just love the argument from incredulity. "It's more amazing than my puny brain can handle, therefor God!"
No, stupid. Try proving the claims that your religion makes are true. Prove miracles. Prove life after death. Prove Jesus rose from the grave. Hell, Prove Jesus ever actually existed. Prove that humanity came from a single breeding pair. Find the genetic bottleneck in our genes from when the world was reduced to Noah and his family.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Actually, science "states" (or rather, simply recognizes) that it can't investigate anything that doesn't leave any observable evidence. It's religion that works hard to ensure that their cherished phenomena all stay in that category.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
that there was _tons_ of proof that God exists (e.g. Miracles) right up until the invention of the camera, the jet airplane and the t.v. journalist...
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I figure that if God were interested in dropping a closed-form mathematical proof, there are any number of simpler ways to go about it than a few dozen Jews and the odd Greek composing The Bible.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Arguing from personal incredulity.
This dude falls for the old trap that he doesn't understand something, therefore "God did it". Personal incredulity
We haven't found life on other planets, therefore we must be the only one. Therefore we are the only one. Therefore God.
Most people have no idea how cell phones work. Does that mean God made cell phones?
Most people don't understand the quantum. Does that mean that those devices that work on hte quantum don't exist, or that God actually intervenes every time we use them? Once upon a time, illnesses were punishments from God. Some people still think so. Are they? We now know about germs and viruses. We know about biology, and are continuing to learn. As we learn we effect cures, by attacking those things that make us sick, validating the biology. Or is it still God making us sick, and all the biology just a trick of the devil, not unlike those who believe that fossils were put in the earth by the devil or by God to tempt us, or prove our faith,
The God of the Gaps is silly, as we find the gaps getting smaller and smaller.
People who were schizophrenic or psychotic were "posessed by demons" Now we treat them with drugs. Do the drugs drive the demons out? Or do they help to control issues of chemical unbalance or other problems. Can an exorcist cure the insane as well as psychopharmacology? That somehow, this foolish man's thinking that his lack of knowledge proves that God exists, if true, means that His god needs people to be as ignorant as possible. Then everythinig they do not know about makes God more and more legitimate and powerful. A person who knows almost nothing can then know that almost everything is proof of God.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Scientific discoveries tend to make the universe seem even more amazing, and reveal even more limitations to human understanding.
To theists, the more amazing the universe is, the more obvious it is that God must exist. Similarly, the more limited humans are shown to be, the more obvious it is that God did it all.
That is why theists keep insisting that science makes their case for them. Emotionally they are right. Logically they are not.
Many theists also get this strange idea that something intrinsic to science makes the enterprise itself "out to disprove God's existence." Science doesn't disprove God so much as start by assuming God doesn't exist, and operate within the boundaries of what we can actually demonstrate (which will never be God). Some specific scientists want to disprove God's existence (good luck proving a negative!), but science itself just doesn't include God in the equation at all. Theists receive this very reasonable assumption of mechanism over intelligent agency as an attempt to disprove, and go on the counter-offensive, claiming that these attempts are self-defeating.
So, that is what is going on.
I contend that anyone who achieves true objectivity on this issue will opt for agnosticism and just leave the debate behind.
Douglas Adams said it best:
The WSJ's entire premise is based upon the idea that space is small enough that we could search it for other inhabited planets in the time we've been looking.
Space isn't that small.
Space is so big that BILLIONS of years will pass before we even see the light shining from a sun in a different galaxy.
The universe could have 10,000 intelligent species that we will never know about because they are just too far from us.
Religions sometimes codify social and physical survival strategies, don't mess with the neighbor's wife, don't eat that type of sea creature, etc.
And sometimes they tell you to kill gay people, or a disrepectful teenagers, or your wife if she doesn't mess up the blankets so you can display them on the morning after you are married, or witches or blasphemers or someone you see working on the sabbath, or that you are supposed to kill everyone from the neighboring town except for the young virgin girls or offer your daughters to be raped by people at the door or that it's okay to have children with those same daughters.
I'll take my chances with the bacon and the seafood instead of trying to pick and choose who I have to kill.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says man, "[that article in the Wall Street Urinal says that science] proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
– excerpted from Douglas Adams (for the cretins in the audience)
And that's about the most intelligent thing a person can say on the matter.
Ones the subject of logic and evidence. The other is the subject of faith. Those that lack logic and evidence seem to be completely baffled by people of sciences inability to have any spiritual understanding what-so-ever. And those that lack faith seem to be completely baffled by those that are spirituals complete lack of logic. The 2 subjects have little to do with one another other and to try and prove or disprove Science or God with Science or God makes about as much sense as what Douglas Adams eloquently illustrates in his example.
It's like if I were to play you Beethoven 5th and say "Isn't that a fantastic peace?" and you were to turn to me and say "Music is nothing is superstition!" and then recite to me the Pythagorean theorem. And to make matters worse I then force you to listen to the Beatles and claim that "Octopuses Garden" clearly shows that Calculus is actually just a government conspiracy.
I personally hope there is a God and that science is the method to understanding of his design. If I'm wrong? Oh well. At least I got Christmas out of the deal.
...so annoying that not even He can be bothered to try to get to the article hidden behind it?
I disagree: God+life is a bigger miracle than life alone.
And therefore much more unlikely.
Is that the same church that tortured Galileo, censored Copernicus, Bible translations and a host of other scientists and scientific discoveries? Or the same church that promoted anti-semitism until the 1960's? Or the same church that tells it's members to refuse birth control including the pill and the condom?
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Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
"Science Cannot Prove the Existence of God." This is not news. It was not news a hundred years ago. This is pretty standard stuff from any general education philosophy class in any decent university. Don't people go to school any more?
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
It's not even logical to expect to prove God with science.
First off, If you created the universe, and the four dimensional space-time manifold that encompasses it; then you would necessarily exist/existed/existing outside of that four dimensional space time. How would you expect to detect something outside that manifold with rays and particles that are necessarily bound to it?
Second, love is real. From this armchair, I am a Scientist, and love is not in the Standard Model. It's not a particle or ray, nor is it quantifiable. But real means real; it's not a concept, or some construction of language. Much like, The Truth.
The truth is real. Many things are 'true'. The speed of light in a vacuum, the gravitational constant, the unladen speed of southbound swallows; are examples of the truth. There's two things that are real, yet not in the SM, and therefore are, what; supernatural?
Nah, I'm a scientist, remember? SM or no, truth and love are made out of something, and they come from somewhere. (I use 'where', even though outside our 4 dimensional space-time, there would be no such thing as 'there'. I admit, it is difficult to wrap one's head around.)
See, science has this thing where many scientists and science faithful feel the need to disprove God. That first requires acknowledging that the source of information on God, the Bible, has a chance of being completely factual. I mean, it's not like science feels the need to disprove, say, Gilgamesh or Beowulf's or Middle Earth's existence. Those are readily accepted as fiction, but the Bible is the story that scientists feel the need to prove wrong. Why?
Simply, because it's a pure existential crisis of faith in science. The science faithful need science to disprove God, otherwise their faith in science is always questioned. For the truly scientific, however, there is no need to disprove God. Let it happen, whatever. If we never see God, it doesn't really matter. If God does one day decide to show himself, it just provides a new avenue of investigation to determine where His power comes from and how science can come to understand that power itself and how it works within the frameworks of science. As such, there is no real reason to try to disprove God.
As can a flying omnipotent spaghetti monster.
It's not even logical to expect to prove God with science
It's not even logical for science to prove anything. Science either accepts or rejects ideas and theories based on evidence, and is always open to revise the previous acceptance or also rejects based on new evidence or new ways of looking at things.
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/tea...
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"sometimes they tell you to kill gay people"
You made that shit up. Not one of the big 3 guys said to kill gay people.
If only I had made it up.
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
That's from the King James version. There are several other mentions, but that is one that's pretty direct.
side note: I wonder why the Christian Fundamentalists who use this as their rationale for promoting things like th edefense of marriage act don't pay any attention to the abomination that is marrying a non virgin woman. You're suppose to display the bedsheets so you can see her hymenal blood.
That one is seriously creepy, I think,
But these fundies, always a hoot, believe that gay marriage demeans the sanctity of their fourth marriage.
Perhaps you or I are confusing who 'they' are. If by they, you mean zealots and people who make war, then yeah; fucking people. Gotta hate 'em.
True enough. I always note that people make God in their own image, as their God just so happens to hate the very same things they do. So the zealots do their evil in the name of their God who happens to, well you know the rest..
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Miracles still occur. It's just that too many skeptics are busy taking pictures, flying places and getting their news from secular TV's talking heads to notice.
All you have to do is do a search for miracles on one of the major Christian denominational websites. I just did one on the Assemblies of God website. You'll get many references to modern day miracles. Since you weren't present at any of them, you'll still have to take these modern day accounts on faith, just like the historical accounts in the Bible, but they haven't stopped occurring - and they have modern day witnesses of them who you could talk with if you were really interested.
Agnosticism alone is only about the contention that the existence of gods are unknowable and says nothing about the belief of the person.
The real category are IMNSHO :
* gnostic theist , I believe in god(s) existance and I know god(s) existence are knowable
* gnostic atheist , god(s) non existence is demonstrable (and logically do not believe in gods existence)
* agnostic theist , I believe in god(s) existance but god(s) existence cannot ever be demonstrated e.g. it is faith only, all the rest miracle and so forth is bunk
* agnostic atheist , god(s) are a construction of human mind, but this cannot ever be demonstrated to the point of knowing that god(s) do not exists.
In the very end if you shrug and say I do not know, but live your life without any token prayer , then you are de facto agnostic atheist. There are a few agnostic theist I met, they are quite rare, the vast majority of self declared "agnostic" I met, are actually agnostic atheist, but unwilling to admit the atheist part to themselves. I am an agnostic atheist by the way.
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