Slashdot Mirror


Experiments Create Particles Out of a Vacuum Using Neutrinos

BarbaraHudson writes: In a new series of experiments, scientists report (abstract) that neutrinos, notable for how infrequently they interact with matter, can strike a glancing blow on an atom's nucleus, and the side effect is the generation of a new particle out of a vacuum. Professor Kevin McFarland says the creation of the new particle is what shields the nucleus from being blown apart by the collision. "Producing an entirely new particle – in this case a charged pion – requires much more energy than it would take to blast the nucleus apart – which is why the physicists are always surprised that the reaction happens as often as it does. McFarland adds that even painstakingly detailed theoretical calculations for this reaction 'have been all over the map.'"

45 of 86 comments (clear)

  1. New ways to generate... gravity? by sinij · · Score: 1

    Is this a way to generate... gravity? I am not a theoretical physicist, but aren't pions once-removed from gravitons? I remember reading and failing to understand something about pion-graviton scattering.

    1. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      A quick look at wiki shows that gravitons are still unproven.

      Pions are appareantly mesons (they have a quark and an antiquark) and decay to muons or gamma rays.

      I'm not sure if there's any proposed relationship between pions and gravitons, though for that matter I'm not quite sure what a pion or a graviton is.

      I will say that conversion of enery to matter and vice-veresa, in and of itself, seems to be old news.

    2. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Gravitons are a force-mediating particle - if they exist. Completely different from pions. They are also near-impossible to observe directly - they make neutrinos look solid. There's no experimental confirmation they even exist, but certain theories far beyond my understanding predict them.

    3. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "Is this a way to generate... gravity?"

      It doesn't matter. It literally makes stuff out of 'thin air', that's the cool part.

    4. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by lkcl · · Score: 5, Informative

      pions are basically made up of quarks just like the neutron and the proton: there's nothing magical about it, and has absolutely nothing to do with gravitons (if such even exist except as a mathematical concept). the difference is that pions only contain two quarks (rather than three) and so they're not stable. imagine throwing two magnets into the air very very carefully and having them spin around each other for a very brief period of time. if they fly apart, splat no more particle: if they touch, splat no more particle. but for that incredibly short duration where the two quarks successfully spin around each other in close orbit, there you have a "pion".

    5. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The thing that's interesting isn't the energy-to-matter conversion, but the fact that the impact should blow the atom to smitherines. When we come across stuff like that (that makes you go "Hmm, that's strange") it's worth investigating to learn more.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    6. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      This isn't really related to gravity. Neutrinos are (as far as we know) fundamental particles. They are creating pairs of quarks (as far as we know fundamental) bound together to for a pion.

      Gravitons are a different fundamental particle and interact much more weekly than do neutrinos. In principal there is probably some cross section for neutrinos interacting to produce gravitons, but the probability is exceptionally tiny.

      Gravitons are part of the quantum description of gravity, but they have not been directly detected as particles - the interaction is so weak that it is difficult to imagine an experiment that could do that .

    7. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      No, it makes stuff out of energy - nothing new to see there. Happens in particle accelerators all the time - throw enough energy around and the distinction between mass and energy gets blurry.

      The cool part is that it's making something out of the impact energy instead of the atom being blown apart. That's something that wasn't expected, and it sounds like they have yet to figure out how/why it happens according to the theory - suggesting that we're on the verge of discovering some new physics, or at least some new insights into existing physics. The entire field of quantum mechanics was itself born of investigating such a relatively minor anomaly unexplained by the existing theories.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by Immerman · · Score: 2

      It's also worth mentioning that discovering the existence of gravitons would blow a hole in General Relativity - it's one of the areas where quantum mechanics and relativity stand in stark opposition. So unlike the Higgs Boson, gravitons aren't something where the theory all agrees that it should exist, but we just haven't (hadn't) actually spotted it yet.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re: New ways to generate... gravity? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      IANATP either but, if gravity is nothing but bent spacetime, then gravitons are not needed. I, jumping up and down on earth, am following a straight path through space.

      IAAP, although not a specialist in gravitons. However, I can tell you that they are hypothetical bosons that are introduced in theories that attempt to link gravity with quantum mechanics (or quantum chromo-dynamics if you prefer.) They mitigate the gravitational force in a quantum setting in much the same way as photons do for electromagnetism, gluons do for the strong force, and W+, W- and Z bosons do for the weak force.

      You can find more information on them here.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    10. Re:New ways to generate... gravity? by bitSmiter · · Score: 1

      "Graviton" is just a working name for the virtual 'particles' (really mathematical points) that you move through equations and computer models. They have nothing to do with the actual mechanical reality of gravity, which we still have no clue about.

  2. get Particles out of a vacuum by rossdee · · Score: 3, Funny

    Its probably best to read the instructions

    Its better with to ones that have a bag. Those ones with just a cylindrical plastic container that you just tip into the garbage can - even if you don't spill it, some of the smaller particles are going to get back into the air that you breathe.

    1. Re: get Particles out of a vacuum by Dynedain · · Score: 1

      You don't breathe when you go outside? I guess that explains the basement dwelling tendencies.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
  3. Re:Getting something from nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Universe is just a simulation. The pion was an attempt to throw more "CPU" cycles at the problem. Now where did that energy come from? And, when will the double-A batteries that run it set to expire?

        ( \ / )
        ( x ')
        ( [ ] )
      ( )_( )

  4. Re:Getting something from nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That "nothing" is really something. Vacuum quantum fluctuations are physically real, cfr the Casimir effect.
    So yeah, if the energy is right you can create particles out of the vacuum.

  5. Peons by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    It's just like work: a bunch of pions popping in and out of a corporate vacuum.

    1. Re:Peons by gtall · · Score: 1

      Isn't this how upper level managers are created? A corporate officer has vacuum for a brain and sees something whizzy on his computer screen. The whizzy thing is a neutrino, normally it is innocuous and rarely interacts with anything. However, in special circumstance the corporate officer accepts the neutrino and a new upper level manager is born.

    2. Re:Peons by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Dilbertian Physics, the next frontier.

  6. Re:Getting something from nothing? by Tough+Love · · Score: 3, Informative

    Where did you get the idea that vaccum is nothing? Actually, vacuum is a very busy place

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  7. Re:Getting something from nothing? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    ...and that reply was meant for the GP

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  8. Re:Getting something from nothing? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Rendering artifacts due to floating point precision!

  9. Non-paywalled version by amaurea · · Score: 4, Informative

    As usual for physics articles, a non-paywalled version is available on arXiv, and has been so for more than a month before it appeared behind the paywall. Why do people who submit physics stories to slashdot aloways link to the useless paywalled version?

    1. Re:Non-paywalled version by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Linking to the published Journal does have it's benefits. Rather than just being some random PDF we at least know that this appeared in some kind of useful publication and wasn't just made up and posted.

      Now before someone says something about Journals accepting fake articles etc. Yes there are exceptions, but that's all, just exceptions. For the most part journals are good arbiters of solid science.

    2. Re:Non-paywalled version by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Informative

      The GP is wrong. The article I linked to is NOT pay-walled, and contains the link to the arXiv.org paper. Either they didn't read the article (so they didn't know that there was already a link to arXiv) or they're just trying to make something out of nothing - kind of like this experiment did :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:Non-paywalled version by rmdingler · · Score: 3, Funny
      Right.

      If you keep that shit up, people will start skipping the articles entirely.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    4. Re:Non-paywalled version by amaurea · · Score: 1

      You linked to two articles. The first one is "Reanalysis of bubble chamber measurements of muon-neutrino induced single pion production", which was paywalled. The second one is "Researchers show neutrinos can deliver not only full-on hits but also ‘glancing blows’", which isn't paywalled, and which further links to the arXiv article "Measurement of Coherent Production of $^\pm$ in Neutrino and Anti-Neutrino Beams on Carbon from $E_$ of $1.5$ to $20$ GeV". I was in a bit of a hurry and didn't read all the articles when I posted, but unless I'm very confused here there was one, prominent paywalled-only link in the summary.

    5. Re:Non-paywalled version by amaurea · · Score: 1

      So, basically, you clicked on the links to check if they were paywalled, in readiness to post an article about your personal bug-bear: paywalled articles.

      Mostly, but with two differences. My personal bug-bear is not just paywalled articles. It is linking to paywalled articles when the same article is available in a non-paywalled form also. If you look closely, the article I linked to was not about paywalled articles. It was a link to the non-paywalled version of the first article mentioned in the summary. So I had two motivations: 1: To complain about unnecessary paywalling, and 2: To help people actually get at the paywalled article.

  10. Re:Getting something from nothing? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    That would explain the uncertainty principle. A little aliasing noise to mask the quantization artifacts.

  11. The link in summary goes to the wrong paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The link in the summary goes to the wrong paper.
    This is the link to the right pre-print paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1409.3835

  12. Re: Getting something from nothing? by jovius · · Score: 1

    There's no "nothing" anywhere in the universe. The only nothingness could be said to have preceded the universe.

  13. Horrible Summary by forand · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The summary is horribly incorrect. There are no new experiments, only new analysis of old experiments. The authors didn't actually do the experiments but "digitize and reanalyze data from both experiments." The summary didn't include the non-paywalled version of the article on arXiv. The summary sensationalizes the results with phrases like "[p]roducing an entirely new particle." (ok it is a quote) which leads non-physicist readers to think this is a new particle as yet unseen when in fact all particles involved are well known. Furthermore, pulling a particle out of the vacuum, especially near such massive and charged objects a nuclei is not at all uncommon. Sure it is a non-electromagnetic process but it isn't odd.

    1. Re:Horrible Summary by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      (sigh) You're doing it wrong - that link you gave is the wrong one . The article the summary links to has a link to the correct (and non-paywalled) article at arXiv.org. Have a nice day :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Horrible Summary by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      (sigh) You're doing it wrong - that link you gave is the wrong one . The article the summary links to has a link to the correct (and non-paywalled) article at arXiv.org. Have a nice day :-)

      The link the GP gave is to the paper linked directly to by the summary (the direct link to the abstract), so some confusion is understandable. In the future, maybe make submissions discuss one and only one paper (or make it obvious they're two papers)?

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    3. Re:Horrible Summary by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      There are no new experiments, only new analysis of old experiments.

      Whew, I heard gunfire last night and at first thought some thug physicist was firing neutrinos down the street. "What if one strikes a nucleus and releases a positron?" I wondered. That's weak!

  14. You omitted the relevant arXiv article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    TFS's topic of "Experiments Create Particles Out of a Vacuum Using Neutrinos" is not discussed in the paper

    of 18 Nov which you linked, but in McFarland's 25 Nov paper

    From the latter,

    In conclusion, the coherent production of pions on carbon nuclei for both neutrino and anti-neutrino beams is precisely measured by isolating a sample with no visible nuclear breakup and low |t| transferred to the nucleus.

  15. Re:Uh-oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Actually, to be on the safe side, while you don't understand what you're doing, could you please do it in Alpha Centauri?

    If you find a way to block high energy neutrinos from space reaching Earth, then moving equipment to Alpha Centauri should be easy by comparison...

  16. Re:Uh-oh... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

    Scientists were surprised with penicillin.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  17. Tea, by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

    Earl Grey, hot.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Tea, by Grog6 · · Score: 1

      Are you sure this isn't Darjeeling? :)

      --
      Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
  18. Also... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Pretty sure the title of TFS should have been:

    Experiments Create New Particles From Atom and Neutrino Interaction

    ...the implication that the particle arose from vacuum is what I read; but it arose consequent to an energy to matter conversion, it seems to me. Ol' Albert had something to say about this, IIRC.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  19. Vetting the results by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Toto's on his way to be tutored. They caught him playing with unleashed atoms, now they have to figure out who's going to take all the little pions.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  20. Re: Getting something from nothing? by Immerman · · Score: 1

    And that only if the universe is finite. If the universe is infinite (and the evidence suggests that it might well be) then it was probably *always* infinite, and the "big bang" was something that happened within it.

    In fact one theory of the nature of the "big bang" is that the original universe was a completely empty false vacuum (i.e. the vacuum energy was stable but at a non-minimum energy) and eventually one point in the vacuum decayed to a lower energy state, spawning normal mass-energy in the process and triggering a chain reaction that expanded through the universe at nearly the speed of light, creating a new "bubble universe" filled with mass-energy. In essence the "big bang" wasn't an explosion of "stuff", it was an explosion of the creation of stuff.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  21. Re:Creation Ex Nihilo! by Immerman · · Score: 2

    Well, enough glancing blows and you can at least generate hamburger where there used to be elected officials, and that might be an improvement. But the particle accelerator would need to be quite small so that you could swing it effectively.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  22. Re:Getting something from nothing? by billstewart · · Score: 1

    So the neutrino (i.e. something other than vacuum) hit another particle (also something other than vacuum), which grabbed some nearby nothingness to create a third particle? Sorry, but to me, the first two parts of it mean you're not creating stuff out of vacuum.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  23. Solar neutrino panels by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Now they can create solar neutrino panels so I can get power at night.