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Professor: Young People Are "Lost Generation" Who Can No Longer Fix Gadgets

antdude points out this story about one of the problems with our ever increasingly disposable world. "Young people in Britain have become a lost generation who can no longer mend gadgets and appliances because they have grown up in a disposable world, the professor giving this year's Royal Institution Christmas lectures has warned. Danielle George, Professor of Radio Frequency Engineering, at the University of Manchester, claims that the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' and have no idea what to do when things go wrong. Unlike previous generations who would ‘make do and mend’ now young people will just chuck out their faulty appliances and buy new ones. But Prof George claims that many broken or outdated gadgets could be fixed or repurposed with only a brief knowledge of engineering and electronics. "

39 of 840 comments (clear)

  1. Dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

    1. Re:Dupe by Rhywden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That was a time when you could actually easily fix something. Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy.
      Hell, even exchanging a broken lightbulb can pose major problems.

    2. Re:Dupe by Feral+Nerd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

      That's because it has gotten worse. My grandparents used to fix everything and keep using it until it was thoroughly broken. I still have a bunch of my grandfather's tools some of which came from my great grandfather and predate WWI. My parents's generation started to get used to the idea of disposability that came with the Americans after WWII and I have experienced how disposability became the norm. It does not even seem to occur to most people these days that things can be fixed. I have seen people dispose of perfectly usable smartphones because of an easily fixable software issue and bin laptops that they could have gotten several more years of use out of by installing an SSD and some extra RAM for a fraction of what a new laptop wold have cost (and keep in mind that the most demanding work most of these laptops ever do is run MS Word). The list goes on, and on, and on,.... And don't even get me started on plastic packaging, it's absolutely revolting. I will never understand why every single one of the cookies in a bag of American cookies has to come in a plastic bag of it's own and I don't remember Bounty bars tasting any worse when they came wrapped in paper.

    3. Re:Dupe by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. I don't know anyone over 50 who knows how to build or repair a steam engine. The shit to fix changes, but "fix shit" still exists. When I was 5-50, my parents were continually asking for help setting their clocks. It wasn't until 70+ when they got devices that were smart where they could finally "fix" the clock. The cable box sets clock from the network. But my father (probable 30 years older than you) never learned how to set time on a clock. Yes, he'd "return" it to the dealer and ask them to do it.

      That you see no value in what kids can fix doesn't mean that it's worthless. I'd guess that when my father was a teen and continually "fixing" his car, his parents complained that he didn't know how to "fix" the horse. As he was raised on a farm to parents born before farm machinery was common (as in I doubt there was much machinery in farming in IN in the 1880s, but haven't researched it), so fixing farm equipment is a lower priority than maintaining the animals which powered the farm implements.

      Same complaint, new generation.

      Plus, my observation is that when it costs $100 to fix an item, but $90 to buy the same thing new, why would you fix it? Yes, that bites you when it costs $90 to fix it and $100 to buy it and you can't fix it, but that's rare. Things are disposable because the grandparents running the corporations that make the shit design it to be unfixable. Then complain when their grandchildren can't fix it.

    4. Re:Dupe by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And the reason is ... because the stuff used to be BUILT by people. If a guy on the assembly line had to be able to get his hands onto a bolt to install it then someone replacing it would also be able to reach it.

      Once we switched to robots for manufacturing it became a lot more difficult. A robot can reach where a person cannot.

      Which means you save a lot of "wasted" space and materials ... but you have to take apart X, Y and Z to be able to read the headlight.

    5. Re:Dupe by pushing-robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It all comes down to economic efficiency. Manufacturing costs have plummeted while labor costs have skyrocketed, so it's not a productive use of one's time to repair. Time is expensive, stuff is cheap.

      Repair isn't the only skill that's suffered; we've forgotten how to farm, forgotten how to weave our own clothing, forgotten how to do many things that were required of a household a century or two ago. It's also why we get connected halfway around the world for customer service and don't get our fuel pumped and windshield washed by a whistling attendant.

      Whether this is ultimately good or bad depends on your point of view, but unless we run short of raw materials, drive up costs via pollution taxes, or see an economic meltdown in the west it's not likely to change course. Rising wages in China and other industrial companies will only do so much before factories switch to robot labor.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    6. Re:Dupe by anagama · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think there is an aspect to this that is being missed to some degree. Yes, it is true that repairing a device with surface mount components the size of dust by hand is a lost cause. It is true that manufacturers build their products in ways that makes opening them impossible or nearly so, and it is true that it is often cheaper to replace something than repair. None of that is going to change.

      But off to the side, tons of people are making their own stuff with Arduino/Pi/etc.etc. People are learning about interfacing with the real world through sensors and adjusting it, or adjusting to it, with any number of methods. The barriers to these types of projects have dropped immensely recently and there are lots of people who take that broken toaster oven, and totally repurpose it as a soldering oven.

      So, perhaps people _are_ less likely to try to fix things than they were decades ago -- instead, a great number are learning how to _design_ their own rather sophisticated stuff. Grandpa may have been able to repair his tractor, but his grandkid can automate it to minimize overlap when out tilling the fields saving diesel, time, topsoil, and mechanical wear/tear. The former skill is valuable, but the current skill is valuable in its own way.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    7. Re:Dupe by Nemyst · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yep. That Professor needs to check back, it's not the "young people", it's their parents' generation. The ones who've decided that repairable appliances reduces income for companies, that cheap materials are the way to go, that throwaway electronics pave the future. I'll be the first to agree that many changes have been for the better: you wouldn't be able to get cars as efficient as they are now without a lot of complex machinery and ICs everywhere. Many of our most beloved gadgets can only exist because of miniaturization and automation of production, at the cost of being able to repair them. It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.

    8. Re:Dupe by ranton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do tell where steam engines (aside from turbines in ships and power plants) are used in our society. I did not say we were taught useless skills.

      Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.

      What your generation forgot about growing your own food is in the same league as what our generation has forgot about how to fix our own appliances.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    9. Re:Dupe by ranton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.

      And for every millennial who can't change an oil filter or fasten lumber there is a 50 year old who can't program their digital clock or reconfigure their new cellphone without waiting for their kids to come home for the holidays. Different generations have different skills, and they usually align with the skills that were useful to them in their early life.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    10. Re: Dupe by neorush · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have to disassemble most of the headlight housing and surrounding components on my Subaru. The dealership does it for the cost of the light bulb if I'm getting an oil change anyway...how much is $12 worth to you? I used to do my own oil changes, but after buying everything I might save $10 ...and there lies the problem...a full day of fiddling (and it still might not work)...or $30 for a new coffee maker?

      --
      neorush
    11. Re:Dupe by PRMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Replacing bad RAM on your motherboard absolutely IS fixing your computer. Just like when I replaced the window motor on my car, I bought a $25 sub-assembly and plugged in two wiring harnesses and put in 2 screws. Just because I never used a soldering iron doesn't make it invalid.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    12. Re:Dupe by lgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nah, it's nothing new. Friend of mine when we were teens had a 70s compact car - a VW Scirocco, or maybe that replaced this one - where you had to pull the engine to change the oil filter. No joke. The guy on the assembly line could install the filter easily because the engine wasn't in the car yet. Ahh, 70s cars.

      Cars keep getting better - whens the last time you fiddled with points (or, heck, even had a mechanical distributer). What's changed is now there's no room in the engine compartment - everything's in there as tight as can be, to put maximum space in the cabin. There's a procedure and a tool for everything, and often service is easy if you've had the specialty training, but it's no longer designed for the average driver to just eyeball it and figure it out, beyond the most routine stuff.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:Dupe by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh really? Broken-window fallacy much? Think of what our economy could do if these people spent that laptop cash on something better...

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    14. Re: Dupe by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My 2001 Volvo involves opening the hood, unscrewing the seal on the back of the headlamp, and replacing the $5 bulb. There are options if you care about ease of service and repair, you just have to actually consider that aspect when purchasing something, or get lucky. Otherwise you may well get stuck with something designed to be a revenue generator for dealer repair shops. (or appliances designed to be disposable as the case may be)

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    15. Re:Dupe by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but you should be required to waste electricity to install an upgrade. The point is that the "repair" is harder today than it was 30 years ago. That's the trend. Especially when manufacturers will deliberately make things hard to repair.

    16. Re:Dupe by thrich81 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let me tell you, as someone with a lot of experience fixing cars (most recently, pulled the engine and transmission from my '96 Volvo to fix a transmission input shaft leak), the fact that they aren't as easy to fix is not a problem. That's because they don't need to be fixed nearly as often. The old (make that "classic") musclecars from the 60's and 70's I grew up fixing, swapping engines, etc. needed something all the time -- points replaced, carburetors rebuilt, overhauls at 75,000 miles, brakes rebuilt every 15,000 miles, etc. You haven't lived until you have rebuilt a Quadrajet four barrel carb from 1975 and gotten all the little springs, metering rods, and gaskets back in correctly. Nowadays, except for oil changes, you can pretty much weld the hoods shut for the first 100,000 miles. And they run far better in every respect than the old,"fixable" ones. I do it as a hobby, but nope, I'll take the new cars any day. That Volvo engine pull will be my last. Same goes for electronics -- the old TV's, the "fixable" ones -- every few years it was down to the electronics stores for new tubes, if you could figure out which tube was bad, and didn't electrocute yourself on the high voltage supplies and capacitors in the process -- no thanks. Things are just better now -- if loss of fixability is the price, it's well worth it.

    17. Re: Dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why does everyone forget to include the cost of their time? Figure it out; you'll be surprised. You'll find that, eg, driving 5 extra miles to the store with the $10 savings isn't worth it, because that's 20 extra minutes (city driving). Unless you _honestly_ enjoy changing your oil, or you have a specific reason (eg, I once had an unusual car that the dealer didn't care to work on properly) then it's probably not worth your time.

    18. Re:Dupe by schnell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.

      I don't see it that way - I think that Dr. George is missing out on the real difference in generations. It's not that there's a new generation that is mechanically unable or prevented by evil industrial designers from repairing old products. It's that there has been a fundamental shift in the equation of time and money for many younger (educated, employed) people in the first world.

      One of the things I never considered when I was in high school/college but appreciated dearly as I got older was that absolutely every decision in one's leisure time (at any age) was a function of money vs. time. At all ages of life, you have by definition more than one of the other. When I was in high school and working at Burger King, I was more than happy to spend a whole Saturday afternoon disassembling and reassembling my third-hand SLR camera to get the advance lever working again rather than taking it to a camera shop. In my post-collegiate bachelor days I unquestioningly built new PCs from scratch rather than spending the $100 (or whatever it was) markup to buy an equivalent one from a white-box computer shop.

      Today? I'm 40-ish with a well-paying but time consuming job, a wife (who also works at a well-paid full time job) and two young children to take care of. I own a lawnmower but would rather pay a neighbor kid to do it so I can use that equivalent precious time with my kids, or even (a rare treat) taking a nap. I could save a reasonable amount by changing my own oil and filters (screw you BMW and your requirement for ludicrously expensive synthetic oils) but I take it to an auto shop because I don't enjoy the process and I'd rather have that time back to do something else. Time is important to me these days, not so much money, and that informs all my decisions.

      Long story short - leaving money aside, many people from older generations don't "get" the modern emphasis on - MBA joke coming here - "the money value of time." Someone who says "why on Earth do you need to read your e-mail after hours?" is probably going to have no understanding of why you wouldn't want to buy something new instead of taking the time to repair it. If you don't have the money to pay someone else, or even better actually like repairing things then regardless of generation you will take the time to do so, I'm sure. But if - for generational, money or whatever reason - you are accustomed to time being more important to you than money, why not pay a professional to repair something or buy a new one?

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    19. Re: Dupe by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because most people's leisure time has essentially zero cash value, particularly In small increments. Personal value can vary wildly on both sides of zero depending on how much you like/hate doing things to be self reliant and how much the bragging rights are worth to you.

    20. Re: Dupe by crowtc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a 40-something, and I used to handle maintenance on my car as well, but it's simply not cost effective anymore.

      My car takes 6 quarts of SAE 5W20 - estimating a cost of $5.00/qt for semi-decent cheap oil, that is $30 right there. Add the $8 oil filter, and we're up to $38. Not counting my time, or costs of driving to purchase oil and dispose of it, we are now at almost $40.

      I drive my car to the same shop, about 6 miles away from my house. In addition to the oil change, they top off the other fluids and check my brakes, hoses, belts, lights and even rotate my tires as part of a standard 'service visit'. All that for a 'package price' of $29.99. It was only $19.99 fifteen years ago, but cost have risen a little. The guy that owns the shop, and his small staff always pay attention to what they are doing, so I have had exactly zero major incidents with their quality of service.

      I replaced the battery in my car recently and I ended up having to spend $20 on tools just to get to and remove the dead battery. The only reason I did that was because the shop was closed the week of Christmas and I didn't feel like bugging the owner.

      Now, when it comes to electronics, I'm all over it. I've repaired a few televisions, my refrigerator, washing machines and several other electronic items around the house. Many smaller devices, however, seem to be designed to become basically scrap when they break.

      --
      -=- I tried going insane, and it was fun for a while, but I got bored and decided to go sane. -=-
    21. Re: Dupe by Z00L00K · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What you forget is that some workshops take shortcuts and use the cheapest possible oil and filter - if they even do the change.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    22. Re:Dupe by jandrese · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think the engineers are oblivious to the problem, at least most of the time. You don't decide to be a car engineer because you know nothing about cars. Sometimes you're given a crap sandwich and have to make it edible. Marketing says they want the new V6 in the compact so they can market it as a sport version, but the engine bay was originally designed for a tiny economy engine. And you can't change the dimensions because the bodywork people aren't looking at this model this year, so you have to find some place to cram all of the parts and you end up with craziness like batteries stuffed into windshield wiper reservoir spaces or oil filters that you have to remove a wheel to replace or engines where almost every repair starts with "remove the engine". And then 3/4 of the way through the project the marketing guy comes by and says that they've been telling everyone it's turbocharged, so could you add a turbocharger and oil intercooler while you're at it?

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  2. Its a cost decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have detailed technical knowledge. However my time is not worth fixing every small gadget that breaks. If I break a blender, its simply not worth me sourcing parts, waiting, and then spending an hour repairing it.

    1. Re:Its a cost decision by west · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Absolutely. With manufacturing costs crazy low, fixing things is a huge waste of time and effort *unless* you really enjoy having brought something back to life, in which case, good for you! From a straight economic decision, why should people want to spend time learning to be good at fixing things instead of using that time to learn other productive skills?

      Someone needs to be introduced to the concept of "opportunity cost".

    2. Re: Its a cost decision by WarJolt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not about cost. It's about design. They used to build things to last. They'll build products with improper snubbing. They know that the back emf will eventually burn out the IC and they depend on it. It lowers cost and means you buy a new electric carving knife every couple of years.

    3. Re:Its a cost decision by frisket · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bollocks.

      The goblet connector on my blender sheared. I could have gone out and bought a replacement blender for €150. Instead I ordered a part online for €9.50 which arrived two days later and took ten minutes to fit. If the motor had failed, I would probably have bought a new blender (of a different make).

      The skill is in knowing when it is worth fixing and when it is better to replace. That's the skill which is being lost. Actually doing the fix is usually relatively straightforward.

    4. Re:Its a cost decision by Fwipp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You could have also bought a $5 blender from the local thrift store.

  3. Integrated this, integrated that by by+(1706743) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Part of the problem could be that so many things are integrated now.

    Entry-level audio gear, for instance, tends to use integrated amplifiers -- no longer can you fix easily fix a blown power transistor, as you could with older gear. Same thing with cars -- adjusting the timing on a car was sort of a rite of passage for many, but it's hardly feasible on a new car with computer-controlled everything.

    1. Re:Integrated this, integrated that by hugetoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I second that and would also emphase that many gadgets are made unfixable on purpose: glued in such a way that they would break if You try to open them, outside screws with non conventional head types. These are not cost reduction measures but rather anti-tamper protections.

  4. fixing modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh sure - if a tiny grain capacitor without marking is failing - I bet the author can't even de-solder it
    find the same part and solder it back on

    same with BGA chip - ever try desolder a 400 balls BGA chip in your gadget and try to find that chip in your radio shack?

  5. Yeah, sure by russotto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is why there are no forums full of information of how to replace the screen on your phone or tablet. This is why ifixit.com doesn't exist. This is why you can't order OBD scanners for your car.

    It's only a minority of people who are skilled and interested enough to fix things. But that's always been so. It's just that now it's typically cheaper to replace broken things (well, not cars) than call in someone who can fix them, because labor costs for repair are so high compared to initial manufacturing costs.

  6. maybe its not the kids by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Insightful

    maybe these infernal new-fangled gadgets are close to impossible to fix, requiring special tools and facilities that papa's john deere did not.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  7. Cultural Shift by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's also a cultural shift - When I was a kid, I remember my dad being down in the basement for hours fixing stuff, working on the car or what have you, while my mum took care of us kids. Now that I'm a dad, I'm out at the park with my kids, or taking them to swimming lessons or just doing general Dad stuff. So while I have the aptitude for fixing stuff (likely inherited from my dad), I don't have the time - I'm busy parenting. It's just not acceptable for a Dad to be down in the basement or the garage for hours on end while the mum upstairs is going insane.

  8. Re:Note to capitalists: business model by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, you ignore this idiot.

    When your CUSTOMERS start complaining about this sort of thing, you do something about it.

    When a professor somewhere complains that your customers are doing it wrong by buying things that they want then tossing them when they break, you don't waste time worrying about it.

    Note that any redesign of most devices to make them more repairable will almost certainly make them more expensive to buy in the first place. Whether you can make something that is repairable and lower cost over the life of the device (as opposed to buying cheaper and replacing instead of repairing) is debatable.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  9. Re:speak for yourself. by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're the second person to make this mistake in the thread.

    "Danielle". Not "Daniel."

    ie, a woman.

    Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?

  10. Except that now by jpellino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    when you open the latest gadget, it's black boxes, nothing that you can see working, or replace without just desoldering a chip.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  11. Consumerism... by matbury · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...was supposed to be the US' economic saviour after WWII. It worked for a while but then grew into what we have now. Some people even believe we can save our environment through consumerism. To sum up some of the comments so far:

    Consumer items are not built to last longer than their warranty so that consumers continue to buy more, more frequently.

    Consumer items have become more delicate and more complicated over time and so easier to break and harder to fix.

    Teaching and/or encouraging people to "make do and mend" is in direct contradiction to consumerism and is unlikely to be tolerated.

    If too many people stop buying things, the economy will suffer.

    The world, its chemistry, its physical nature, is changing dramatically because we measure and value our success according to how quickly we can dig stuff out of the ground and turn it into pollution.

  12. They are not supposed to by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If not outright forbidden to do so. We live in a time where not only things get complicated enough that you'd need to study everything you want to fix for a while before you could even start finding out what's broken, more often than not some legalese bullshit is thrown between your legs where you may not even start working on something you allegedly bought. You see, back in my days we did something funny with the stuff we bought: We "owned" it. It meant that we could do whatever we damn well please with the stuff we bought. No such luck anymore, the more technology your gadgets contain and the more gimmicky it is, the higher the chance that you must not do anything but use it in whatever fashion the creator wants you to. No tinkering, no "fixing", no improving, and sure as HELL no talking about doing any of that!

    Most technical appliances are actually defect at delivery. They refuse to do what you want, like, say, you buy a new game console and it doesn't play whatever you want it to play, despite the technical capability. You must now not go and fix the defect so it would do what you want it to do. In some countries it's even already an offense that could cost you a nasty fine or even land you in jail to fix your broken device. Let alone do it for others.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.