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Canadian Copyright Notice-and-Notice System: Citing False Legal information

An anonymous reader writes Canada's new copyright notice-and-notice system has been in place for less than a week, but rights holders are already exploiting a loophole to send demands for payment citing false legal information. Earlier this week, a Canadian ISP forwarded to Michael Geist a sample notice it received from Rightscorp on behalf of BMG. The notice falsely warns that the recipient could be liable for up to $150,000 per infringement when the reality is that Canadian law caps liability for non-commercial infringement at $5,000 for all infringements. The notice also warns that the user's Internet service could be suspended, yet there is no such provision under Canadian law. In a nutshell, Rightscorp and BMG are using the notice-and-notice system to require ISPs to send threats and misstatements of Canadian law in an effort to extract payments based on unproven infringement allegations.

172 comments

  1. notice-and-notice by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

    why do people keep saying "notice and notice"? it sounds like it's just "notice".

    1. Re:notice-and-notice by Calydor · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's short for "If you see it (notice) send a letter (notice)".

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    2. Re:notice-and-notice by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      oh. in the US we say see something, say something.

    3. Re:notice-and-notice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you notice this Notice you'll notice this Notice is not worth noticing.

    4. Re:notice-and-notice by wiredlogic · · Score: 2

      why do people keep saying "notice and notice"?

      They used Xzibit as a consultant.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    5. Re:notice-and-notice by Jumunquo · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought it was see something, shoot something.

    6. Re:notice-and-notice by ShaunC · · Score: 1

      I'm putting you on notice!

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    7. Re:notice-and-notice by damien_kane · · Score: 2

      The ISP receiving the message has to pass it on to the customer [notice #1] and at the same time confirm to the original sender that they passed it on [notice #2]

  2. Re:It is not illegal to lie by SQL+Error · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It may be illegal to lie for gain, particularly for a corporation, depending on the precise details of the case. They're opening themselves up to criminal charges, not to mention civil lawsuits.

  3. Re:It is not illegal to lie by niew · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How about lying about false and massive penalties in order to extract payment for an alledged offence that hasn't been proven to have taken place? Sounds like fraud, which is certainly illegal...

  4. Re:It is not illegal to lie by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

    Then you're a bad person. Copyright infringement is far less serious than extortion.

  5. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    Not to mention, if I were an ISP, I'd be sending my users another note alongside that notice, pointing out that its statements are untrue, and outlining the actual legal penalties.

  6. Re:It is not illegal to lie by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    In a nutshell, Rightscorp and BMG are using the notice-and-notice system to require ISPs to send threats and misstatements of Canadian law in an effort to extract payments based on unproven infringement allegations.

    It is not illegal to lie - except under oath.

    Try that with the cops next time they question you and let us know how it works out. Oh, and don't forget your "soap on a rope."

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  7. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It is not illegal to lie â" except under oath.

    Sure it is. If you terrorize people with lies, that is illegal. People sending threats like that should be sent to gitmo.

  8. And, we can take away your Birthday by rmdingler · · Score: 1

    The notice falsely warns that the recipient could be liable for up to $150,000 per infringement... The notice also that the user's internet service could be suspended.

    Really? If those enticements fail to grab my attention, is Christmas on thin ice as well?

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  9. Re:It is not illegal to lie by niew · · Score: 4, Informative
    Just to make it clearer...

    Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain (adjectival form fraudulent; to defraud is the verb). Fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

  10. Re:It is not illegal to lie by hawguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In a nutshell, Rightscorp and BMG are using the notice-and-notice system to require ISPs to send threats and misstatements of Canadian law in an effort to extract payments based on unproven infringement allegations.

    It is not illegal to lie — except under oath.

    It is, however, illegal to infringe on copyrights. If the legal lying helps reduce the illegal infringement, I'm fine with it.

    But it won't, of course, because the illegal infringers will see the lies and use that to justify their infringement.

    What would make a difference is to make legal content available more widely and without restriction. Why should I "buy" a DRM movie download that I can only watch on a designated "approved" device and only as long as the company I "bought" it from is still in business when it's even easier to download it from a torrent, and then I have full use of it on any device forever.

    Generally when I want to buy a movie, I'll just buy a used DVD and rip it myself though sometimes if it's something I want to watch right away I'll torrent it and buy it at the same time so I can watch the movie immediately. I believe I'm violating the law in both cases despite the fact that I have physical DVD's for all of my movies.

    If I could buy a non-DRM'ed "official" movie in digital form for a reasonable price, I'd rather do that since I'd be guaranteed a high quality copy in my language (that sure beats waiting 3 hours for a torrent to download only to find out that the audio is in Mandarin with no subtitles), but there's no way to do so.

  11. It may not be a lie. by BitterOak · · Score: 3, Informative

    While Canadian law does indeed cap infringement awards at $5000, there's no reason the rights holders can't sue in U.S. courts where there is no such limit. Once the ISP reveals the identity, which they are required to do under Canadian law, nothing limits what the rights holder can do with that information. Canadian courts may not comply with judgements of U.S. courts, but if the defendant has any assets in the U.S. or travels there, they could be at risk.

    --
    If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    1. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No Canadian ISP would be required to give anything to a U.S. court. They would laugh at such a request, as they do already, site jurisdiction and privacy rights, and then be done with the request for good.

    2. Re:It may not be a lie. by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      No, the Canadian ISP is required to give the subscriber information to the rights holder, who may be American. With that information, the rights holder could then sue in a U.S. court.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    3. Re:It may not be a lie. by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Do US courts have any jurisdiction handling infringements which did not happen in the US ?

    4. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Do US courts have any jurisdiction handling infringements which did not happen in the US ?

      Depends if you ask someone in the US or someone in the rest of the world.

    5. Re:It may not be a lie. by davecb · · Score: 4, Informative

      The US company would have to sue in Canada first to get the court order to disclose the accused's name. The US court would refuse to proceed if the same suit is already underway in Canada. "Jurisdiction shopping" gets you a pissed-off judge, and possible sanctions.

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    6. Re:It may not be a lie. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's not jurisdiction shopping to get a local ruling against them (as you live in that jurisdiction) and trying to get a ruling against them in their jurisdiction as well, where they can be compelled to comply. Usually, you don't have both concurrently, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Jurisdiction shopping got Paul Little in prison. A person in CA who made porn in CA and sold it in CA was sentenced in FL. Because the people that hated him shopped for a DA willing to take it on. And yes, that's different because it was criminal.

      But you can't file in CA and FL at the same time for someone that has a nexus in both. The jurisdictions overlap, as you can apply a CA judgment in FL and vice versa. But the same doesn't apply to a suit in the US and Canada. There's no overlap at all. Different independent laws, different independent jurisdictions.

    7. Re:It may not be a lie. by Nos. · · Score: 1

      Considering the rights holder in Canada can't even get the subscriber information from the ISP without a court order, I'd like to know what makes you think a foreign company is going to do better.

    8. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it is and overlap. You don't get to sue them in multiple countries. you pick one, any court will throw out your case when told you are already have proceedings or a verdict in another country or province as you are effectively asking for double punishment for a single crime.

    9. Re:It may not be a lie. by davecb · · Score: 4, Informative

      You think US courts won't take "judicial notice" of a Canadian suit on the very same crime, and one in which the company had to commence a Canadian action to get the information? You think we don't have treaties with the US? You think countries haven't honoured each other's decisions and court orders since the middle ages?

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    10. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you comment is completely wrong. Any court would first ask, why the fuck are you suing here when the action took place in another country, when you answer that you did sue there they would throw your case out, potentially with costs awarded to who you were suing. If this sort of thing was allowed companies and especially patent troll type companies would be launching suits all over the world to try to cash in as much as they could.

    11. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, only if ordered by the court. The law does not require the ISP to reveal any subscriber information to the rights holder, but rather to relay a notice on behalf of the rights holder to the subscriber.

    12. Re:It may not be a lie. by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      Well, if the files are shared on Bittorrent, then they are being made available to Americans, so most definitely yes! Certainly if the rights holder is American which most are.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    13. Re:It may not be a lie. by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      you comment is completely wrong. Any court would first ask, why the fuck are you suing here when the action took place in another country, when you answer that you did sue there they would throw your case out, potentially with costs awarded to who you were suing. If this sort of thing was allowed companies and especially patent troll type companies would be launching suits all over the world to try to cash in as much as they could.

      But if the files are being shared on Bittorrent, they're being made available to every country in the world, and these could all be regarded as separate instances of infringement.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    14. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, the Canadian ISP is required to give the subscriber information to the rights holder, who may be American. With that information, the rights holder could then sue in a U.S. court.

      In fact the ISP is forbidden from sharing the information absent a court order or a warrant. Canadian Privacy laws actually protect privacy and forbid third parties from being "helpful" and volunteering your private info to anyone else.

    15. Re:It may not be a lie. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      they're using canadian law in order to send those notices.
      so they're agreeing to act under that law - or face other potential consequences for not acting in good faith etc.

      of course, you can never trust the bastards. then there's double jeopardy and what have you - not that it would stop the bastards from trying.

      if you murder someone in, say, Finland, sure I victims family can sue you in USA civil court but that does go against internationally established practices(damages and such to affected would be handled by the Finnish court as standing practice).

      furthermore, they still wouldn't be able to cut the isp access from the accused..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    16. Re:It may not be a lie. by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      America holds foreign nationals guilty and/or accountable to American courts for crimes committed outside the United States all the time.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    17. Re:It may not be a lie. by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      to get a parallel proceeding in another jurisdiction you would have to lie to the court. If the case is already the subject of a criminal proceeding, any civil proceedings *must*, no matter where they are, be suspended pending the outcome of the criminal proceeding. In the case of two civil or two criminal trials for the same thing in two different jurisdictions, there are a few options: a Lis Alibi Pendens is issued by the court of first instance, which means no other proceedings may take place, period; or, one jurisdiction may cede to another in which case the proceeding may or may not move venues, or the two jurisdictions agree to move the proceedings to a higher jurisdiction (eg District to County) where both may prosecute the same case on the same evidence at the same time in the same chamber.

      Normally, though, you can only file a claim in the jurisdiction in which the alleged offence took place, at which point the jurisdiction is settled and the venue is determined right then and there.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    18. Re:It may not be a lie. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      or the two jurisdictions agree to move the proceedings to a higher jurisdiction (eg District to County) where both may prosecute the same case on the same evidence at the same time in the same chamber.

      And what joint higher court would there be for an action in Canada and one in the USA? It doesn't seem like you could appeal to a district court that included both.

    19. Re:It may not be a lie. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      "You think countries haven't honoured each other's decisions and court orders since the middle ages?"

      In this particular case, no. :)

      That said, I see the slimy way this will happen is that they will use the law and Canadian courts to get personal information, then use that information in US court, likely in a State with stupid IP laws such as east Texas, to try to extort money from Canadians. These things typically don't go to court, but are just used as blunted objects to scare people into paying money. Even should it go to court, I question how enforceable it will be in Canada, however should you ever want to travel to the US, it may cause some issues.

      The big thing in past with this BS, was in the US, in certain States you can sue a "John Doe" (i.e. an IP address you don't know who is the identity) to get at the personal information, drop the case, then start a new case using said personal information in the usual extortion scheme. This was already tried in Canada, and the ISP's, courts, government, told them to take a hike. Now however this will allow the collection of the personal information.

      I suspect this will eventually cause a political situation with the Privacy Commissioners Office getting involved. There is a Federal Election going to happen soon in Canada, so Media companies would be stupid to try this crap right now (which they seem to be doing regardless), because all it is going to take is a bunch of examples of this BS happening to make it a political situation where politicians will be using it as a voting issue, and the should they win, will kill the law or amend it so that it is no longer being exploited.

    20. Re:It may not be a lie. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do US courts have any jurisdiction handling infringements which did not happen in the US ?

      Depends if you ask someone in the US or someone in the rest of the world.

      I am in the US and would say no the courts do not have any jurisdiction.
      Now if you ask the DOJ or courts, they would likely say they do have jurisdiction.

      It's kind of like the Sony when getting hacked they are a US company, when they are paying taxes they are not a US company.

    21. Re:It may not be a lie. by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      in which case one of the other options is used. That's why there are several.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    22. Re:It may not be a lie. by davecb · · Score: 1

      Good point, and thanks. I used your characterization about the "aim of the slimy" in a comment in the article we're discussing.

      That's different from the courts screwing up, and more like a trick to get away with forum shopping, something that wouldn't happen nearly as well (badly) between states.

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
  12. Re:It is not illegal to lie by mi · · Score: 1

    They're opening themselves up to criminal charges, not to mention civil lawsuits.

    Well, then we don't need to be breaking our spears over it here on /., do we?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  13. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Criminal Code of Canada 346(1)

    Every one commits extortion who, without reasonable justification or excuse and with intent to obtain anything, by threats, accusations, menaces or violence induces or attempts to induce any person, whether or not he is the person threatened, accused or menaced or to whom violence is shown, to do anything or cause anything to be done.

  14. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fraudulent misrepresentation test:

    1. A false representation or statement made by the defendant;
    2. Which was knowingly false;
    3. Which was made with the intention to deceive the plaintiff;
    4. And which materially induced the plaintiff to act; and
    5. Which caused the plaintiff damage.
  15. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Sure it is. If you terrorize people with lies, that is illegal. People sending threats like that should be sent to gitmo.

    If you terrorise people with the truth (eg. "I've got a knife and Im', going to kill you!" when you really do have a knife and you intend to kill) that is illegal.

    It's not the truthiness of the statement which is the illegal bit - it's the terrorismy bit. LPT: That's why it's called terrorism.

  16. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are not violating the law as far as ripping goes as long as you actually bought the disk. If you borrowed or rented the dvd/blu-ray, you would be illegally distributing. Make sure you actually own the physical disk.

    And as far as torrenting, then that's illegal because you would be doing two things that are bad. 1. You are receiving illegally obtained goods; 2. You are distributing without authorization.

  17. Re:It is not illegal to lie by hawguy · · Score: 1

    You are not violating the law as far as ripping goes as long as you actually bought the disk. If you borrowed or rented the dvd/blu-ray, you would be illegally distributing.

    Unless the DMCA has changed recently, I believe I'm still in violation:

    http://lifehacker.com/5978326/...

    The moment you crack DRM (Digital Rights Managemnt) to rip the DVD, you've violated Title I of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. 17 U.S.C. 1201 prohibits circumvention of DRM . . . Some courts have tried to leaven this rather harsh rule, but most have not. While it's typically hard to detect small-scale circumvention, the question is whether bypassing DRM is legal. The statute sets up some minor exceptions, but our ripper doesn't fall into any of them. So, the moment a studio protects the DVD with DRM, it gains both a technical and a legal advantage—ripping is almost certainly unlawful

    While ripping the movie from a non-encrypted DVD may be legal, I don't believe that i'm legally allowed to bypass the CSS encryption.

    And as far as torrenting, then that's illegal because you would be doing two things that are bad. 1. You are receiving illegally obtained goods; 2. You are distributing without authorization.

    If I leech the torrents, am I really guilty of illegal distribution? Though it's likely that I'm guilty of receiving stolen goods, though I wonder if there's any wiggle room on that if I already own the movie?

    Make sure you actually own the physical disk.

    That part is easy, I have a big DVD binder full of every movie I own, plus amazon purchase receipts for probably 90% of it.

    The ironic thing is that even though I purchase a lot of movies (around 350 at last count), the movie industry received very little of that money since I buy almost exclusively used movies. If I had a legal way to purchase non-DRM'ed content, they'd get a lot more money from me.

  18. Re:It is not illegal to lie by mi · · Score: 1

    Try that with the cops next time they question you and let us know how it works out.

    Can't do that with the FBI — that's illegal, but with local cops — sure.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  19. Re:It is not illegal to lie by mi · · Score: 0

    http://ottawalitigation.com/tort-spotlight-fraudulent-misrepresentation/

    That's about tort — not about legality or illegality.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  20. Maybe not in the US... by jopsen · · Score: 1

    It is not illegal to lie

    In most places it constitutes fraud... Prosecuting it is hard (and often impossible), but it is still illegal to commit fraud. Or sell a product under false advertisement which is what they do here, the product being a license to the work that is allegedly infringed.

    Fraud, false advertising, etc... call it what you want, lying is rarely legal.

    1. Re:Maybe not in the US... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      "Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair [...] gain."

      Yup, it's fraud.

    2. Re:Maybe not in the US... by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      better check the relevant jurisdiction.

      Misrepresenting the Law then hiding behind it with malicious intent is most certainly FRAUD.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    3. Re:Maybe not in the US... by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      Once again, though, you're assuming (against all evidence) that the purpose of these notices is in fact to suppress illegal activity, rather than to line the pockets of the mobster, er, "copyright holder". The business model is based on the "voluntary" fines, not on the original content.

    4. Re:Maybe not in the US... by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      fraud is extremely easy to prove if you have the instruments of fraud as sent by them, in your hand to show to the court as exhibit A.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    5. Re:Maybe not in the US... by mi · · Score: 1

      Misrepresenting the Law then hiding behind it with malicious intent is most certainly FRAUD.

      What's "malicious" about upholding one's copyright?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    6. Re:Maybe not in the US... by mi · · Score: 1

      assuming [...] that the purpose of these notices is in fact to suppress illegal activity, rather than to line the pockets of the [...] "copyright holder".

      Distinction without difference. When shooting a robber for example, are you taking another human being's precious life to stop the crime in progress, or to protect your own flabby body and/or meager possessions?

      The business model is based on the "voluntary" fines, not on the original content.

      Their business model is based on producing content, which other people — quite obviously — desire. If it really was as bad as the infringers often imply (paradoxically), nobody would try to copy it in the first place...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Maybe not in the US... by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      They're not shooting the "robber", they're pulling a gun on him and demanding his wallet. I'm fairly sure that doesn't count as self-defense.

      Also, you're confusing the porn company's business model with Rightscorp's business model.

    8. Re:Maybe not in the US... by mi · · Score: 1

      They're not shooting the "robber", they're pulling a gun on him and demanding his wallet.

      My question was not about shooting a robber. I asked, whether the lie of threatening to shoot a robber — without having a loaded weapon — constitutes fraud.

      And this is a "yes or no" question... Awaiting your response.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    9. Re:Maybe not in the US... by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      No, you didn't. Read your own comment more carefully. You said nothing about "threatening to shoot".

      However: threatening to shoot a robber unless he leaves or surrenders would not be wrong. Threatening to shoot a robber unless he gives you his wallet would be, though I'm not sure that "fraud" is the correct word. Lousy analogy really, since it would be equally wrong whether or not you in fact had the gun.

    10. Re:Maybe not in the US... by mi · · Score: 1

      Read your own comment more carefully. You said nothing about "threatening to shoot".

      You are right. I did say "threaten to shoot", but in a different sub-thread.

      Threatening to shoot a robber unless he gives you his wallet would be

      Why? Why is it Ok to shoot him, but not Ok to demand his wallet? And what is the actual difference — as far as the analogy is concerned? You are threatening the robber with severe punishment to stop him from robbing you. How can a robbery-victim be possibly blamed for doing anything in his power (from lying to to killing the robber) to stop the robbery?

      though I'm not sure that "fraud" is the correct word.

      Yes, you are sure, "fraud" is not the correct word. Because it is not.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    11. Re:Maybe not in the US... by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      "Why is it OK to shoot him but not OK to demand his wallet?" - are you kidding me?

      Sorry, but if your grasp of ethics is really that poor, there really isn't any point in further discussion.

    12. Re:Maybe not in the US... by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      ... FWIW, though, the word in this case is "mugging" - theft by violence or the threat of violence. In the actual scenario at hand, there is no threat of violence, only the use of deception, so "fraud" is correct.

    13. Re:Maybe not in the US... by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      extorting money by deception is malicious intent.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  21. Re:It is not illegal to lie (usually) by davecb · · Score: 1

    The fraud clause prohibits lies about anything except quality. Extortion is probably more about threats of physical harm.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  22. In Canada it is legal to download and rip movies by HannethCom · · Score: 4, Informative

    In Canada, once you have paid for a license of a movie, it is legal to rip it from a physical copy, or download a digital copy.
    In Canada when you play money, you have to get something in return in the form of a physical item, a license, a limited license, or a service.
    Home videos were going to be under the physical item category originally. The problem the MPAC had with this is that legally, in Canada, you cannot put any restrictions on what people do with an item that is labeled as physical.
    The MPAC wanted home videos only to be used for private showings, thus they lobbied to have home videos be classified as a license. The problem they have now is that you own a license to watch that performance of the movie. If you have a VHS copy of The Jungle Book, it is legal for you to download the 1080p version and watch it.
    The movie studios, or record companies, can get around this a bit by coming out with modified versions of the movies, or music. There is a threshold for how much change there needs to be for this to happen.
    Also Herr Harper passed a law making it illegal to teach other people how to crack encryption. Though cracking the encryption for personal use is not illegal.

    Basically, if you buy a movie, you own a license to view that performance, doesn't matter how you get it. Higher quality transfers, or remastering are generally still considered the same performance.

    --
    Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
  23. Re:It is not illegal to lie (about some things) by davecb · · Score: 1

    If you lie to get someone to give you money, its fraud except for very narrow exceptions. Saying "Ford is better quality than Chevy" is one of the exceptions.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  24. BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just an elaborate scam and an obvious waste of money to force Canadians to actually pay for and watch CBC. That's all. ...Great - Anne Murray specials for the next 50 years.

  25. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It might actually be more expedient to sue them for unsolicited, fraudulent legal advice, against the Bar of whatever province the consumer was sued in.

  26. Re:It is not illegal to lie by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    Try that with the cops next time they question you and let us know how it works out.

    Can't do that with the FBI — that's illegal, but with local cops — sure.

    It varies by state, but you're still committing at least a misdemeanor. Washington State is one example.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  27. Re:It is not illegal to lie by davecb · · Score: 2

    Fraud is a criminal offence, requiring the person be making a false statement to obtain money, and the false statement not to opinions like "my product is better than his".

    In the US, the tradition is to sue folks. In Canada we tend to call the cops. I'm mildly surprised no-one has said they done so already.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  28. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fnj · · Score: 1

    What are you on about?
    Tort: a wrongful act or an infringement of a right (other than under contract) leading to civil legal liability. That's why they call it "tort law".

  29. Who's going to act? by davecb · · Score: 1

    Well, then we don't need to be breaking our spears over it here on /., do we?

    Someone has to tell a whole mass of possibly-terrified individuals and a collection of government and police forces that a crime is being committed. Othewise the criminal walk away with their ill-gotten gains.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  30. Re:It is not illegal to lie by davecb · · Score: 2

    IANAL, but suppressing copyright infringement is neither unfair nor unlawful. Whatever else may be wrong about it, fraud it is not.

    That claim requires the end justifies the means. Never has, never will.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  31. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fnj · · Score: 1

    Be an apologist for MAFIAA organized crime if you get a kick out of it.

  32. Re:It is not illegal to lie by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

    It is not illegal to lie — except under oath.

    Definitely not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Lying is not illegal in and of itself, but in business and legal contexts it is often either a crime or a tort.

  33. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fnj · · Score: 2

    That's because extortion has nothing to do with lying. Extortion is the criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. You know, like your MAFIAA buddies.

  34. There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 1

    and for good reason; because it puts them under PERSONAL LIABILITY: FRAUD.

    Call it like it is, folks, deliberately misrepresenting the Law for gain is FRAUD.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    1. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 4, Informative

      oh, before you say it isn't fraud in this case, try reading up on Canadian law:

      Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada provides the general definition for fraud in Canada:

      380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,

      (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding fourteen years, where the subject-matter of the offence is a testamentary instrument or the value of the subject-matter of the offence exceeds five thousand dollars; or
      (b) is guilty
      (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or
      (ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction,
      where the value of the subject-matter of the offence does not exceed five thousand dollars.

      In addition to the penalties outlined above, the court can also issue a prohibition order under s. 380.2 (preventing a person from "seeking, obtaining or continuing any employment, or becoming or being a volunteer in any capacity, that involves having authority over the real property, money or valuable security of another person"). It can also make a restitution order under s. 380.3.

      The Canadian courts have held that the offence consists of two distinct elements:

      A prohibited act of deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means. In the absence of deceit or falsehood, the courts will look objectively for a "dishonest act"; and
      The deprivation must be caused by the prohibited act, and deprivation must relate to property, money, valuable security, or any service
      .
      The Supreme Court of Canada has held that deprivation is satisfied on proof of detriment, prejudice or risk of prejudice; it is not essential that there be actual loss. Deprivation of confidential information, in the nature of a trade secret or copyrighted material that has commercial value, has also been held to fall within the scope of the offence.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    2. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The case law on this stuff is a mile long in terms of fraud here. If they're looking to be criminally charged, they're going about it the right way.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by bloodhawk · · Score: 0

      they aren't defrauding them of anything though, yes it is a lie, but a lie in itself is not fraud and the sections you highlighted are not relevant as they are in regards to gaining a financial benefit by deceit which in this instance they are not.

    4. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      Did you read the notice? They're demanding money. The lies are there in the hopes of making the victim scared enough to pay up.

    5. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem you have here is that the rights holders are indeed entitled to the settlement figure and hence while they lied about consequences they are not making a financial benefit from deceit, the claim itself is legitimate even if the consequences of not accepting the settlement are not. that doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to do this, but it definitely doesn't qualify as fraud as their is no financial gain by deception.

    6. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      yes I did. The problem is while they are lieing bastards there is no gain by deception here, the settlement is legitimate and the copyright owners are indeed entitled to settle. Yes the consequences are BS but that is a separate issue, they should be stopped from sending this stuff but it isn't fraud even though it most definitely is misleading.

    7. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      in old English law, prior to 2006 and as specified in the Fraud Act (1978?), obtaining or attempting to obtain pecuniary advantage, as here, by deception, as here, is fraud. In the Fraud Act it is defined as a summary offence - no question of intent. Did the fraud occur or did it not occur? If it did, then it did, end of story. Bend over, new fish.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    8. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      there does not have to be a proven loss, according to both the quoted Statute and the Case Law. There only has to be a proven intent to obtain pecuniary advantage by deception, as is precisely what is happening here.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    9. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      The problem you have is that breaking the Law to enforce the Law is a right afforded only Law Enforcement Officers, and then under extremely narrow circumstances. For example, shooting a suspect in the back (fleeing a scene waving a gun around?) can be justified, where if he were on the floor with his hands behind his head and his thumbs interlocked and his legs crossed over his ass, not so much.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    10. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      As I said they are NOT obtaining monetary advantage by deception and I think it would be damn hard to argue they are in any court. The settlement is legitimate, the offense is legitimate, they are entitled to make such a settlement. Yes they are providing incorrect advise, but that isn't fraud.

    11. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lying isn't actually against the law. it only becomes a crime under certain contexts such as when it causes damage, injury or loss to a 3rd party or is used as a means for illicit gains. the issue with this particular case is that their is no illicit gain, you could argue you were tricked into settling and you would have much rather the $5000 fine, but it would be a damn hard case to show you were defrauded here, especially as you were the one actually committing the copyright violation.

    12. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      incorrect. You have to be able to argue that you were defrauded because of the lie. in this case the settlement is legitimate, the offense did occur and the rights holders most definitely do have the right to settle. The advise they received with the offer is most definitely false, but you will need to show you only settled because the penalties of not settling were vastly exaggerated. It isn't fraud unless you can prove that.

    13. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      The Act goes on to say. "This deception must be the cause of the obtaining". i.e you actually need to show that the lie is what lead to them getting the payment, it isn't enough just to have lied.

    14. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      their own documents damn them. The statements on the notices are collectively and individually, statements of intent. That they are deceptive places those statements in the realm of fraudulent. That they deceive in terms of the legal position of the Person who issued them, doubly so in that they are instruments of Fraud, and that they make threats of litigation using false information makes them Statutory instruments of Fraud.

      Thank you, come again.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    15. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      sure they have the right to settle. They DO NOT have the right to have a THIRD PARTY make deceptive threats on their behalf, though, which ab initio invalidates their entire claim.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    16. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      actually, it is. Simply because, in Canadian law (an in others), actual loss need not have occurred. Only the act of deception needs to be proved; a simple reference to the relevant Statute will do that in very short order.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    17. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      Ergo, misprepresenting the Lawful position in order to obtain a settlement equal to the actual cap under threat of a claim for some thirty times the cap which would be dismissed anyway, but not before it bankrupted the respondent, would be found as fraud.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    18. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no it doesn't invalid their claim at all. One breach of the law doesn't suddenly excuse the previous breach of the law.

    19. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by sjames · · Score: 1

      The Supreme Court of Canada has held that deprivation is satisfied on proof of detriment, prejudice or risk of prejudice; it is not essential that there be actual loss. Deprivation of confidential information, in the nature of a trade secret or copyrighted material that has commercial value, has also been held to fall within the scope of the offence.

      They gain a quick settlement where if the alleged infringer knew the penalties are limited he might have decided to go to court. For example, if he didn't do it but wasn't willing to risk huge penalties on the court coming to the correct conclusion.

      So it is fraud.

      Consider, if the rights holder didn't expect to gain something from lying in the notice, why do it? Funsies?

    20. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by sjames · · Score: 1

      Unless or until the accusation goes to trial, it is not legitimate in the eyes of the court. It is just an accusation.

    21. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that their claim for compensation is legitimate is irrelevant.

    22. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      ... and if the victim *didn't* commit the copyright violation, as is often the case?

    23. Re:There is another word they studiously avoid by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      But the lie *is* what leads to them getting the payment! (As demonstrated by the observation that an innocent victim is just as likely to pay up as a guilty one.)

  35. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by Suddenly_Dead · · Score: 4, Informative

    Recent copyright law renders it illegal to break any digital "lock" mechanism, regardless of whether it's for the sake of format shifting or not. There are exceptions, but you'll note that platform shifting is not one of them:

    Digital locks can be hacked for the following purposes:

    • law enforcement and national security activities;
    • reverse engineering for software compatibility;
    • security testing of systems;
    • encryption research;
    • personal information protection;
    • temporary recordings made by broadcast undertakings;
    • access for persons with perceptual disabilities; and
    • unlocking a wireless device.

    source

    Platform shifting is still legal, but not of, for instance, Blu-rays or DVDs

  36. Re:It is not illegal to lie by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

    But they're not trying to suppress copyright infringement. They're trying to get people to send them money. (Whether those people actually committed copyright infringement is a moot point; this sort of extortion works just as well either way.)

  37. Do your homework first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    US courts don't have jurisdiction in Canada. Same reason Russian courts don't have jurisdiction in the USA. It's called national sovereignty.

    1. Re:Do your homework first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called national sovereignty.

      At least until the US government notices that your country has oil and sends you some "democracy bombers".

  38. Kim Dot Com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ask Kim Dotcom about his thoughts on this subject.

  39. Re:It is not illegal to lie by harryjohnston · · Score: 2

    It might be legal, though I'm unconvinced. It is definitely unethical, and it *should* be illegal.

    Keep in mind that the only possible justification for copyright's existence is that, on the whole, it benefits society. Every time it is abused, it tips the balance a little more. I'm no longer certain that it *is* a net benefit to society; we may be better off without it.

  40. Re:It is not illegal to lie by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 0

    Jeez, give it a rest already. We get it! You like the taste of shoe polish and want your overlords' boots to be well licked.

  41. Pull a Weev by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Step 1. Register a domain that sounds great like 'Rights Enforcement of Independent Artists"

    Step 2. Send spaced notices/requests for IP addresses within Canadian ISP ranges until you get juicy names.
    (Yes, so eventually you'll have sent out many x 256 such noties)

    Step 3. Enjoy all these celebrity names, addresses, and IPs

    Step 4. Profit

    1. Re:Pull a Weev by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

      I haven't researched this, but it is my understanding that the ISPs just have to forward the notice to the customer; at that point, at least, they don't have to give the complainant the customer's details. (Similar to the system here in NZ.)

    2. Re:Pull a Weev by Nos. · · Score: 3, Informative

      You don't get names from the ISP... or addresses, or anything else.
      You send your notice to the ISP and they forward it to the person using the IP at the time you allege the infringement happened.

  42. Re:It is not illegal to lie by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    A lie you benefit from is more commonly called "fraud". Are you asserting that fraud is legal and ethical?

  43. Re:It is not illegal to lie by camperdave · · Score: 1

    It is not illegal to lie — except under oath.

    Sure, fraud, false advertising, slander, and libel are all perfectly legal.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  44. Security for costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One issue that was never addressed in the procedure put forward in the ontario voltage and teksavvy case about revealing subscriber info is the fact that usually under federal and provincial laws of civil procedure a foreign plaintiff could be required to post security for costs i.e. pay into court a sum of money which is the sum a court will award the defendant if they win (in canada the winning party recovers its legal fees at 66% unless the losing party acted improperly in which case it is at 90%). In other words a foreign plaintiff suing hundreds of defendants will be impossible practically. Unless they set up a local corp and assign the copyright. So if anyone is a potential defendant, ask for your costs.

    1. Re:Security for costs by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      I posted a story a while ago about a slew of John Doe copyright cases that were dismissed out of hand for the simple reason that the COPYRIGHT HOLDER, NOT A THIRD PARTY, is the sole entity with the right to file such claims, AND that there is no way to prove an IP as a form of personal identity.

      That post was dropped in favour of a slush piece about Kim Kardashian's ever increasing glutes.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  45. Easy solution by Livius · · Score: 1

    Just send the notice back and wait until they correct the mistakes on it.

  46. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

    Basically, you believe that the ends justifies the means. In this case, the ends are to extract money from the masses. And, the means involves lying.

    This has damned near nothing to do with enforcing copyright law. Perhaps you didn't notice the name of the corporation involved - Rightscorp, acting on behalf of BMG. Or, you've forgotten how they've made news in the past. They dwell among the scum of the earth. They have been shot down time and again for exploiting loopholes in the law. And, oh yeah - perhaps you've also failed to notice that in this case, they are indeed exploiting a loophole in the law.

    Rightscorp has no intellectual property to protect. It is nothing more than a remora, living off the larger shark, BMG.

    Scum.

    If you have any real intellectual property to worry about, are you willing to allow a remora like company to attach itself to you, so that it can milk money out of your property?

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  47. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, legally fraud, no. But if it goes to court, well, you've basically boned yourself in front of jury because now you have to defend why you lied. It also could be considered a form of intimidation. In fact, if one wanted to argue the intimidation angle, then actually the *IAA could actually be prosecuted under the RICO act. Misrepresenting punishments is legally speaking, about the stupidest thing you can do. Throw in that if a lawyer knowing misrepresents the law, that's grounds for disbarment. Basically, exaggeration in the world of legal anything is about the stupidest thing you can do.

  48. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    funny, I thought that was called "fraud", which is in fact illegal in many places.

  49. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    You let the law guide your conscious? Eh, go with the flow, I guess.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  50. Re:It is not illegal to lie by ihtoit · · Score: 1

    it's either that or learn how to make lanyards for soaps...

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  51. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    I do see a small difference between obeying the law (out of necessity) and agreeing with it. I don't smoke weed in front of the police station.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  52. Re:It is not illegal to lie by FirephoxRising · · Score: 1

    Just like with music, if consumers can buy it easily and for a reasonable price, then they will buy it. Piracy is just market failure being corrected.

  53. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    "reverse engineering for software compatibility;"

    An example of this is DeCSS, which allows you to play DVD content on Linux. As an added benefit, platform shifting is done as part of making it compatible.

  54. Is this not a red herring? by ikhider · · Score: 2

    The real issue is that the ISP's are monitoring your network traffic at all. Does anyone not take issue with the fact that the providers know what websites you visit, what you download and what files you share with friends, family, and neighbors. That is the bigger issue. Without a warrant, these companies are pretty much watching and reporting everything you do, even on personal time. That in itself is significant. Sharing movies or music is incidental. These companies also know your personal details, religious/philosophical/political affiliations, your family, sexual preferences and so on. This is dangerous for a company to use and unquestioningly hand over to anyone without a warrant. Since when is it more important if I lend a friend a DVD more important than my privacy? There is a case to be made for running tor relays, advocating for user privacy, corporate accountability (and to keep their seemingly limitless powers in check) as well as government powers in check. This movie/mp3 stuff is beside the point. For those of you with computers in your bedrooms or homes, you now have confirmation that you are not alone and someone is watching and reporting everything you do.

    --
    "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    1. Re:Is this not a red herring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but we knew that back when Vic Toews tried introducing the internet surveillance bill to legitimize what was already going on. And even if we're not monitoring it then whatever country we are connecting through or to is monitoring it and sharing the data back and forth with everyone else. That's a major path for the US to get information about its citizens when the court steps in and says a particular person cannot have their internet use monitored.

    2. Re:Is this not a red herring? by ikhider · · Score: 1

      If Canadians were to contact their elected representative to pull the teeth out of a company's ability to prosecute people who shared their DVD's or CD's in private, it would reduce the case for surveillance. However, this infrastructure was there BEFORE the legislation came into place. I do not think Canadians voted for this, nor do I think they pressured their ISP's into doing this. This means the government, in tandem with companies, already had plans for mass spying. Even if the new legislation is declawed, this does not mean the infrastructure is no longer there and warantless acquisition and relaying of private data will not occur. Thus the whole issue of whether people share movies and music in private is moot in the face of the larger threat.

      --
      "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    3. Re:Is this not a red herring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real issue is that the ISP's are monitoring your network traffic at all.

      Your phone company knows who you call, too.

    4. Re:Is this not a red herring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ISPs are not recording what you download specifically. They are simply passing on a letter to the user of an IP address. Your IP was address was scraped by the blackmailing company (the right's holder enforcement team) who participated in the BitTorrent swarm in the process of downloading the protected media. BitTorrent is P2P and by is designed to share your IP with everyone else in the swarm.

      Performing this scrape is very easy - have a look at what your own BitTorrent client is telling you about your connected peers - their IPs are on the screen.

      To make this process difficult for these companies one must break the connection between the IP address the ISP provides and the IP address used for exchanging files. This is why VPN services exist. The IP address moves to a VPN service endpoint who, if chosen carefully, will refuse to divulge or may not keep record of what VPN IP matches to what ISP IP address.

      Encrypting BitTorrent will not help you here. Encrypting BitTorrent is used to stop the ISP from identifying that YOU are a BitTorrent user. They want to know this so that they can police your traffic rate to a low value to reduce the amount of P2P in their network.

    5. Re:Is this not a red herring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ... ISPs... run... the .... network.

      No, really. What the Hell else do you expect?

    6. Re:Is this not a red herring? by qzzpjs · · Score: 3, Informative

      The ISP's are not monitoring us here in the case of this law. The copyright holders are obtaining IP addresses from Torrent sites, etc like they do in the U.S.. They then create the letters and tell the ISP to forward them to the customers at those IP addresses. The ISP cannot provide any customer detail to the copyright owner due to Canadian privacy laws unless instructed to by a court order. Even the police and RCMP are still fighting to get access to simple customer information without warrants.

      That said, I'm sure the ISP's here do have some sort of traffic monitoring for their own purposes. Rogers was found to be doing that in order to slow down p2p networks and gaming.

    7. Re:Is this not a red herring? by ikhider · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that this monitoring is above and beyond whether a person engages in bittorrent client usage and extends to what sites you visit, what streams you view on-line, Archive.org and even what programs you run on your computer be it free or proprietary. People share information in multiple ways. Perhaps concern over copyright infringement grants the ISP's the authority to view all your activities even more closely. Also, the infrastructure in place at ISP's is above and beyond what you describe and more sophisticated. The Canadian internet providers now have the burden of higher costs (which they pass on the the consumer) to pay for this new monitoring infrastructure. Perhaps what you describe was what was done in the past, but a significant change has occurred. I do not care about downloading movies/music, I already have a significant DVD/CD/vinyl collection, I care about a police state that watches everything everyone does be it anywhere in the world including Canada, USA, and so on. Hollywood is not so powerful as to tell another country to put a massive monitoring infrastructure 'just for them'. The governments at play here are looking for something more.

      --
      "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    8. Re:Is this not a red herring? by ikhider · · Score: 0

      You are right, the ISP's are already monitoring everything the user does. The new law in place is simply legitimizing parts of this monitoring. It is only a matter of time before more of it is legitimized. These laws took a while to draft and same goes for this monitoring. So if someone votes for political party A, but party B is in power, records can be accessed to determine whether a representative can invest time and effort in the constituent based on political inclination.

      --
      "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
  55. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    while this is true, you'd first have to prove the origin of the file...did it really come from a dvd(and such)? Can you guarantee that the media was locked in the first place. If I download a file that was taken from a source that was never locked to begin with while locked versions of the same media exist, does the protection extend to all versions of a "file"?

  56. Watch out Ned! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's coming right for us!

  57. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You're mixing up two different legal systems. The original article was about copyright protection in Canada and you're trying to introduce the DMCA from the United States into the argument. Apples and oranges, old man.

  58. Amateur hour by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 2

    This unauthorized copying and/or distribution constitutes copyright infringement under the U.S. Copyright Act. Pursuant to 17 U.S.C. 512(c), this letter serves as actual notice of infringement.

    WTF would Canadians care about 17 U.S.C. 512(c)?

    If they can't afford Canadian legal staff to even write their letters they will likely not have much success in Canadian courts anytime soon either.

  59. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have to agree with this. We've purchased a lot of DVD and Blue Ray disks after their initial popularity wanes and they land in the $5.00 bin.

  60. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    Then there is the question, what is considered "hacking of a digital lock"?

    After installing DeCSS on my Linux PC well over a decade ago when I still had a working DVD player, I didn't notice the lock. Was it really still there? Is it really a lock? To view a .jpg image I also need some special software to decode it for me and display it on my screen.

    Even after decoding CSS, you still have to decode the MPEG to be able to send it to a screen for display. Most players do both steps in one go, without a single bit of user interaction. It is as if there is no locking going on. Some players will even conveniently ignore "unskippable" locks on promos and so that are sometimes put at the start of a DVD.

    Now imagine you got some DVD or BluRay, and want to make a copy of it. You go online, and surely in moments you find a piece of software that can do just that for you, fully transparent. Are you still, legally speaking, in the process of "hacking a digital lock"? Many users may not even know it's encrypted - they pop it in their BluRay player, and it just plays. They put it in their computer, and their ripping tool just rips it as someone else already figured out how to read the content. To the user it is exactly the same as if this encryption never was there in the first place.

  61. WAIT, there's a cap on all infringements? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, no matter how many infringements I commit the total penalty is capped at $5000.00. Hey, where do I pay my $5000.00 up front so I can then download, upload and basically plunder my weaselly black guts out in the digital media arena.

  62. Re: It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, if I say 'I don't have a knife and I'm not going to kill anybody" and then you go and stab them to death, is it legal?

  63. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by Pinhedd · · Score: 1

    The problem they have now is that you own a license to watch that performance of the movie. If you have a VHS copy of The Jungle Book, it is legal for you to download the 1080p version and watch it.

    No it isn't. Canadian copyright law allows for one to create or obtain a backup of any multimedia product that one owns as this falls under fair dealing (aka fair use). However, this doctrine is dated and does not make any stipulation on the legality or the source of the backup, although the recent bill C-11 has clarified it a little bit which would seem to make acquiring copies from others impermissible. This aspect of Canadian copyright law has not been well tested in court, which is why many people have gotten the false impression that it gives them the right to download whatever they want as long as they have paid for something similar in the past.
    It is extremely likely that a rightsholder would prevail in court by arguing that since a 1080p BluRay copy and a 480p DVD copy are marketed at different price points, they are different products and downloading the wrong one would not be covered under fair dealing even if that method of acquiring the product were itself permissible. In Canada, the burden to prove fair udealing lays with the defendant, so good luck arguing that.

  64. Re:It is not illegal to lie by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    Depends on the city.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  65. Ah, BMG... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sony: you wanna be hacked *again*?

    Sony: head of the no-buy list.

  66. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the legal lying helps reduce the illegal infringement, I'm fine with it.

    Thank you for demonstrating, yet again, one of the (many) reasons why copyright-maximalists are assholes in general.

    Lying is in general ethically and morally wrong, as you are well aware.

    If you're fine with them doing it, and they're fine with doing it (which they obviously are, since they're doing it) then I am perfectly fine with increasing non-commercial copyright infringement with whatever means possible.

    Good job, twit.

  67. give yourself a gift by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2015 is coming,give yourself a gift.
    www.nikeairmax90.cz

  68. Harper has to go by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2

    Even if you have to hold your nose, Vote NDP next time. At least the leader has half a brain more than no brain Trudeau. I'd normally vote Conservative (they use to be like Democrats in the US). But I can't do it now. Too many reasons to count why.

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    1. Re:Harper has to go by Piata · · Score: 2

      Harper has set Canada back 10 years. It seems like every month there's a new lawsuit against the Conservative party. I'll vote for NDP or Liberal if it means getting Harper out of power and Canada back to being Canadian.

  69. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get a seedbox for 10 bucks you cheap Canadian bastards.

  70. Re:It is not illegal to lie by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

    Legally, it's extortion.

  71. Re:It is not illegal to lie by sjames · · Score: 1

    But no infringement has been proven in court, only an allegation made. The threatened (false) penalties may induce an innocent potential defendant to pay just to make it go away. That would be a monetary gain through deceit.

  72. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by sjames · · Score: 1

    A case might also be made that it is protection of data.

    Or, just to be safe, download a torrent. That way, someone else broke the digital lock.

  73. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've already received a notice and my ISP did exactly that. Here's the full text of the message I received:

    Hello,

    TekSavvy has received what the Copyright Act calls a "notice of claimed infringement". It listed an IP address and time. Our systems indicate that the IP address listed in the notice was likely assigned to your account at the specified time. We are therefore legally required to forward the notice to you. The notice is reproduced, unaltered, below.

    First, though, there are some things you should know:

    (a) We haven't told the sender who you are. Your privacy is paramount to us. We don't track, or know, what you do. We do know what IP address we assigned to you within the last 30 days. But we don't provide personal information like that to anyone unless a court orders us to -- and we have not done so here. The notice was simply received by us, and we have forwarded it electronically on to you.

    (b) We are an intermediary that is required to forward this notice to you. We do not, and cannot, verify its contents or its sender. However, a private party's notice does not mean there has been any legal ruling. Only a court can do that.

    (c) It is good practice to make sure you secure your account. Your wireless router should be password-protected; the password should be changed regularly; and those who have the password should maintain good virus protection. Your MyAccount allows you to check your bandwidth usage: do so regularly, and make sure what is happening and what you think is happening line up.

    (d) We retain IP address information for 30 days. If your modem has not been powered off during that period, then we may have IP address information going back to the last time you did. In addition to requiring us to forward this notice, the Copyright Act also requires us to retain the records matching the IP address and time to your account for six months. If the people who sent the notice apply to a court, they can require us to hold it for longer.

    We have provided some links below. The notice, which we are required to forward unaltered, follows.

    Copyright Act (see, especially, sections 41.25-26):
    http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca...

    TekSavvy:
    http://teksavvy.com/en/why-tek...
    https://myaccount.teksavvy.com...

    Automated translation (you may need to copy and paste):
    https://translate.google.com/?...
    http://www.bing.com/translator...

    --- Forwarded Notice of Infringement follows:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Notice ID: XX-XXXXXXXXX
    Notice Date: 04 Jan 2015 03:52:22 GMT

    TekSavvy Solutions, Inc.

    Dear Sir or Madam:

    Irdeto USA, Inc. (hereinafter referred to as "Irdeto") swears under penalty of perjury that Paramount Pictures Corporation ("Paramount") has authorized Irdeto to act as its non-exclusive agent for copyright infringement notification. Irdeto's search of the protocol listed below has detected infringements of Paramount's copyright interests on your IP addresses as detailed in the below report.

    Irdeto has reasonable good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of in the below report is not authorized by Paramount, its agents, or the law. The information provided herein is accurate to the best of our knowledge. Therefore, this letter is an official notification to effect removal of the detected infringement listed in the below report. The below documentation specifies the exact location of the infringement.

    We hereby request that you immediately remove or block access to the infringing material, as specified in the copyright laws, and insure the user refrains from using or sharing with others unauthorized Paramount's materials in the future (see, 17 U.

  74. Re:It is not illegal to lie by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    Why is this not Mod (5+), Informative?

    Is the post false?

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  75. What else would you expect from a Mafiaa operation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They always strong arm their way, bullying anyone without equal or greater power.

  76. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by grnbrg · · Score: 1

    > In Canada, once you have paid for a license of a movie, it is legal to rip it from a physical copy, or download a digital copy.

    The problem being, is that it is still illegal to upload that digital copy. And bittorrent is peer-to-peer, which means unless you have specifically configured your client to *not* *share* with other members of the swarm, you are uploading.

    Where do you think the notice companies get your IP address? You sent them a piece of whatever content they're complaining about.

  77. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    (see, 17 U.S.C. 512).

    i like how they cite united states federal law in this entirely *canadian* matter. fucking morons.

  78. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by Suddenly_Dead · · Score: 1

    Then there is the question, what is considered "hacking of a digital lock"?

    The term "hacking" that the government's summary webpage used was clearly chosen as a bit of confusion/propaganda; the actual bill uses the term "circumvention" and defines it thusly:

    circumvent” means,

    (a) in respect of a technological protection measure within the meaning of paragraph (a) of the definition “technological protection measure”, to descramble a scrambled work or decrypt an encrypted work or to otherwise avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate or impair the technological protection measure, unless it is done with the authority of the copyright owner; and

    (b) in respect of a technological protection measure within the meaning of paragraph (b) of the definition “technological protection measure”, to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate or impair the technological protection measure.
    “technological protection measure”
      mesure technique de protection

    “technological protection measure” means any effective technology, device or component that, in the ordinary course of its operation,

    (a) controls access to a work, to a perform- er’s performance fixed in a sound recording or to a sound recording and whose use is authorized by the copyright owner; or

    (b) restricts the doing — with respect to a work, to a performer’s performance fixed in a sound recording or to a sound recording — of any act referred to in section 3, 15 or 18 and any act for which remuneration is payable under section 19.

    Whether you know that the tool you're using is stripping DRM is immaterial.

  79. It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is illegal to lie on legal notices.

    Odd, you are OK with some form of violations but not others?

  80. Not all ISP's are by phorm · · Score: 1

    If you look at the notice from Teksavvy (about), it appears they're not monitoring your traffic, but they do keep track of 30 days IP address allocation. The infringement notice comes with the IP, which the ISP then tracks back to you, and forwards on the notice.

    Not that believe some ISP's *DON'T* watch your traffic, but in this case it's not necessary for purposes of passing on infringement notices, all they need is to check their DHCP logs.

  81. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    insure the user

    We can take out insurance against these things now? Where do I sign up?

  82. Re:It is not illegal to lie by fxsoap · · Score: 1

    Maybe they don't have laws of their own and they pirate ours?

  83. Re:It is not illegal to lie by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Looks to me like a very flowery letter that is actually a phishing expedition for your personal information.

    As Teksavvy stated in the preamble, they protect your identity, only the courts can release it, which would require a warrant.

    Yet here they are asking you to voluntarily surrender your personal information in the form of an email or letter, which I am sure once they have it, an extortion letter or civil proceeding may follow...

  84. Winrar 5.20 Final free download full version by SaifUllah4418 · · Score: 1

    Winrar 5.20 Final free download full version What's New in Version five.20 Final: Version 5.20 1. If Windows User Account management prevents extracting or archiving commands to form files in system protected folders, WinRAR makes an attempt to start its another copy with administrator privileges to finish the operation. it's necessary to substantiate privileges elevation in response to User Account management prompt to permit such second WinRAR copy to run. 2. you'll be able to drag files in person with right push button, drop them to some folder and choose WinRAR archiving commands in context menu to create Associate in Nursing archive with these files within the destination folder. 3. it's doable to use WinRAR.ini file rather than written account to store WinRAR settings. you'll like such approach if you propose to put in WinRAR to removable media, like USB flash drive, then run it on completely different computers. See "WinRAR.ini file" topic in "Configuration settings" chapter of WinRAR facilitate for details. 4. additional extraction support for nothing and ZIPX archives mistreatment XZ compression rule. 5. If nothing or ZIPX archive contains any compression algorithms except usual "Store" or "Deflate", rule names ar displayed in "Version to extract" field of archive data dialog. Algorithms with names unknown to WinRAR are going to be assigned "m" name, wherever "num" may be a compression rule numeric symbol. 6. "Open with WinRAR" command is obtainable in Windows context menus for archive formats supported by WinRAR. It is turned off with "Open with WinRAR (for usual archives)" possibility in WinRAR "Settings/Integration/Context menu things..." dialog. 7. program line RAR will browse the default set of switches from rar.ini file hold on in RAR program folder. antecedently it absolutely was doable to define solely an equivalent set of switches for all RAR command with "switches=" string. Now rar.ini conjointly permits to specify separate switch sets for individual RAR commands mistreatment the following syntax: switches_= For example: switches_a=-m5 -s switches_x=-o+ 8. Command "ch" supports switches -tl, -cu, -cl conjointly for nothing archives. Previously "ch" allowed these switches just for RAR archive format. 9. For archive formats lacking file time data, such as .bz2, .xz and .Z, WinRAR sets instrumentation archive modification time to extracted files. It doesn't apply to tar.bz2, tar.xz and tar.Z, which use file time hold on in tar headers. 10. "Keep broken files" extraction possibility is supported for bzip2 archives. 11. WinRAR icon in Windows context menus is scaled up properly in high DPI screen modes like one hundred and fiftieth or two hundredth of traditional text size. 12. it's doable to disable WinRAR "Benchmark" command with "Benchmark" variable of HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\WinRAR\Policy Registry key. In multi-user setting "Benchmark" command may abuse shared procedure resources. See "Registry variables" topic in "Configuration settings" chapter of WinRAR facilitate for a lot of details. 13. in addition to "sfxcmd" variable containing the whole program line, SFX module sets "sfxpar" variable containing program line parameters only, while not leading SFX module name. These variables ar set before starting a program laid out in "Setup" command. 14. File write prompt in console RAR displays the scale and modification time for existing and new files. 15. once archiving from stdin with -si switch, RAR sets the present system time to modification time of archived file. Previous version failed to set now in the slightest degree. 16. it's doable to use -si and -v switches along. Previous versions failed to permit to form volumes once archiving from stdin. 17. Warning is issued once beginning unpacking four GB or larger file from RAR or nothing archive to FAT32 patition, thus user could cancel the operation. FAT32 doesn't support files of such size. Also this warning is issued once beginning to produce RAR archive with "Store" (-m0)

  85. Re:It is not illegal to lie by mi · · Score: 1

    What are you on about?

    I'm on about the fun fact about tort — you don't need to have done anything illegal to find yourself liable. For example, it is perfectly legal to server boiling coffee to your customers — but if they manage to burn themselves with it, they may have a tort claim against you.

    And the other way around — smoking or drinking in public may be illegal, but, them being victimless crimes, no civil liability exists to anyone, even if the government successfully prosecutes you criminally.

    What I said in my (highly-moderated) post is that "It is not illegal to lie". An AC replied, that such lying may constitute make you civilly liable. I contend, that the reply was irrelevant.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  86. Re:In Canada it is legal to download and rip movie by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    “technological protection measure” means any effective technology, (...)

    Now one could very well argue that DeCSS has rendered the technology ineffective. Would be interesting to know what the court thinks of such an argument.

  87. Re:It is not illegal to lie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The amount of money the movie industry loses from people buying and or renting used DVDs is far far higher than online losses. Buy a new DVD, they get a cut. On any of several resales, however, they don't anymore. Nor do they on the dozens of rentals made per movie. The amount of money that changes hands in the used and rental dvd market must surely be in the hundreds of millions, or even billions. And I myself don't like to torrent because I'm forced into uploading at the same time to keep my ratio up so not to be blocked. It's the uploading where they really can nail you though.. It's only either unavailable shows, or former TV series from the 50s and 60s where they've repackaged them for $1000.00 for the full series (ie $2 to $4 per episode) where I get irate.. it was free on TV and the rights would have expired under the old laws, and they've found a way to really milk it, while showing the very same thing free on, say, Hulu. I'd rather watch it on Hulu's You tube channel for free than torrent it, but Hulu's blocked here. The DVD sets are , I believe, just a collector's item sold by them , since they also show it for free.. go figure.. I don't know if they've actually gone after anyone for these yet, or anyother TV series via torrent..