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Ask Slashdot: Is Pascal Underrated?

An anonymous reader writes In the recent Slashdot discussion on the D programming language, I was surprised to see criticisms of Pascal that were based on old information and outdated implementations. While I'm sure that, for example, Brian Kernighan's criticisms of Pascal were valid in 1981, things have moved on since then. Current Object Pascal largely addresses Kernighan's critique and also includes language features such as anonymous methods, reflection and attributes, class helpers, generics and more (see also Marco Cantu's recent Object Pascal presentation). Cross-platform development is fairly straightforward with Pascal. Delphi targets Windows, OS X, iOS and Android. Free Pascal targets many operating systems and architectures and Lazarus provides a Delphi-like IDE for Free Pascal. So what do you think? Is Pascal underrated?

14 of 492 comments (clear)

  1. Modula-3 FTW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    begin
    Pascal should die!
    end

    1. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with Pascal is not that it is bad, but that it provides nothing of value to offset the cost of maintaining a separate toolchain, training programmers, building libraries, etc. What can you do in Pascal that you can't do in C++, or Python, or Java? Why do we need yet another language, that has no particularly useful features?

      I used Pascal in some college courses, and felt that my productivity went down by about 50% compared to C, just because of all the extra typing, and the reduced readability: begin using words for punctuation does not work as well as using punctuation for punctuation end

    2. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      What can you do in Pascal that you can't do in C++, or Python, or Java?

      I would say that Delphi's advantages over Python and Java are native compilation and its advantage over C++ is the speed of compilation. For fast development of GUI applications (and cross platform these days) Delphi remains one of the best options available.

    3. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      With enough experience C is more readable. It's a bit like writing "sodium chloride" vs "NaCl". The general population will find the first one more readable because they don't have to know chemical symbols, but if you know chemical symbols, then you find "NaCl" more readable.

    4. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with Pascal is not that it is bad, but that it provides nothing of value to offset the cost of maintaining a separate toolchain, training programmers, building libraries, etc. What can you do in Pascal that you can't do in C++, or Python, or Java? Why do we need yet another language, that has no particularly useful features?

      This could be said about any programming language. Back in my university days (we still had keypunch machines, then), I had a professor state that you could write just about anything in any language. For instance, you could write a banking app in FORTRAN or a program to calculate the trajectory to the moon in COBOL, but in the end, you should use the best tool suited for the job.

      So, yes, Pascal can't do anything that C++, Python or Java can't do; that's not the point. Is Pascal better suited to some tasks than those languages? That is what the OP is really asking.

    5. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      For a beginner, curly braces may seem more readable. For an experienced programmer, Python wins. Curly braces lead to ambiguous interpretation, whereas indentation guarantees a single interpretation and stands out well.

    6. Re:Modula-3 FTW! by SAN1701 · · Score: 5, Informative

      In my experience (about 20 years professionally working with Delphi, since the first version), the biggest advantage of Object Pascal over C++ is its strong typing discipline. It makes a program more maintainable on the long run, and errors are easier both to avoid and find. Pointer and String handling are also better in Pascal IMHO, and finally compilation time is also much shorter, which is not something to be disregarded when debugging a big project. Against Java or Python, desktop applications are usually more responsive with Object Pascal as it outputs machine code without JIT or GC involved (and usually Delphi will output a single .exe, without the need for any DLLs). Sure enough, you have to remember to destroy your objects, although newest versions of Delphi can use ARC on mobile platforms. My 2c. Sure I've already used all 3 (Python, C++ and Java) when I needed, but I've never felt as productive in any of these as I am in Object Pascal. So maybe the language has it's values.

  2. Discussion is outdated by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In 2015 we choose languages on rich sets of apis. Java for example is almost universally hated for it's syntax yet is insanely popular. Why? 150,000 methods to choose from and frameworks galore.

    No one cares about features as its not 1982 anymore where you write your own libraries. Today you have a task and a tight deadline and there is no time to program. Only time to grab a framework can tinker with it.

    1. Re:Discussion is outdated by William+Baric · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're right and that's pretty much why computer programs are now so ridiculously buggy and require bug fix releases every two weeks. But then again, as long as customers still buy without complaining, why bother with quality? Worse, a lot of people now think a bug fix release every two weeks is a sign of quality!

    2. Re:Discussion is outdated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      That. I couldn't care less if you replaced x = 1 for x := 1 or other simple syntax changes like that. The main thing is, nobody uses Pascal anymore, there's pretty much no useful libraries/frameworks/tooling and whatever else for it, little online resources for it, no jobs that need it and so on. This discussion is outdated by at least a decade. Pascal lost and it won't be back, end of story.

  3. One important use left for Pascal by jolyonr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    However...

    When the only jobs for Pascal programmers are teaching other people how to program in Pascal, you know there's a problem.

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
  4. Hints from an over-the-hill programmer by jgotts · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It doesn't matter what programming language you use. Go ahead and use Pascal if it's the best choice for the job.

    To be a great programmer, you need to write code that reads like English. We have a framework inside of brains called English speech, reading, and writing. If you're a French speaker, or speak another European language, your framework isn't much different. A great French programmer or a great German programmer will program similarly to a great English programmer. Everybody's seen expressive code. You can look at the code and understand what it does almost instantly. Comments, variable names, abstraction, everything that makes a great programmer, all of these things come into play. Conversely, everybody's seen shitty code that takes several days to understand. I don't care what language it is. You're a horrible programmer if you write code like this. Nobody cares how clever you are, or how you've mastered the specific grammar of a certain language. You will eventually move on and someone else will have to modify your code. The best place for clever code is in the trash bin.

    To be a great programmer, you need to be able to plan out what you're going to do in advance. Everybody's worked with hacked together shit, and has had to maintain it. Hacked together shit wastes programmers' time. Spend a few days doing absolutely no "programming" whatsoever. Instead draw some flowcharts, try out a rough prototype, brush up on some theory, write up an estimate, and have someone else review everything.

    Learn to be realistic about how long your work will take. I know, genius programmer, you can get everything done in about a day. Be true to yourself and don't try to impress anybody with your speed coding abilities. Take your time, and get it done right. Spend an entire day or several days testing. There's nothing better than a launch that is bug free.

    Be prepared to explain your code on a whiteboard to your own mother. If you can't explain what you're doing to your own mother, you don't understand the problem well enough, and chances are you're overlooking something. Your boss will have somewhat more expertise than your mother, but if you can justify what you're doing to her then you're probably on the right track.

    Don't be that guy who jumps on every programming fad. If something been around for 20 years, it's probably worth considering. If something's been around for 3 years, perhaps the fad will die out and your company will get stuck maintaining an obsolete framework. Been there, done that.

    I don't care if you went to MIT or only high school, we're all equal. You can't go away and work in your little PhD way, emerging a month later with a piece of code that everyone despises. Programming is a team effort. If you think that nobody else can write a piece of code except a PhD, then guess what? Your software is likely to fail, because nobody will be able to maintain it, especially when that PhD leaves to go be a professor at Stanford.

    I've seen these mistakes repeated over and over for all 25+ years I've been a programmer.

  5. This. SO MUCH This. by brunes69 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I often feel like everyone on Slashdot is a mix of two people

    - Old 50+ year olds used to the good 'ol days when you would write your own stack from scratch whenever writing an application

    - 20 year olds fresh out of (or still in) college who yell "squirrel!" at everything new and shiny

    The truth is, that 75% - 90% of the business applications that make the world go 'round, and make nearly every startup today go 'round, are based on Java or some complimentary technology like Node.js with Java bindings. The reason for this is simple: The Apache foundation. There are SO MANY amazing enterprise-class Java libraries available via the Apache project that there is little to no reason to ever write your own. The mantra where I work, and it should be where EVERYONE works, is before you write any plumbing code at all, check Apache first. People who roll their own plumbing code INVARIABLY end up with subtle errors they did not think of or subtle problems that will manifest themselves in 2 or 3 year when they try to scale.. and all these problems were likely already figure out long ago.

    When building a woodsheed, do you cut down the trees, mill the lumber, and forge the nails? Of course not, you take advantage of modern economies of scale so you can focus on the REAL building project, not the building blocks. The same is true for any halfway competent software developer.. The days of people writing their own libraries for DB MVC, for configuration management, for network access, for parsing libraries, for thread pools.. these days are gone, and thank god. The less you have to worry about the low-level plumbing, the more you can focus on the real business problem. And furthermore, the more people that make use of a low level plumbing libary, the better and more secure and stable it becomes, for everyone.

    1. Re:This. SO MUCH This. by Motard · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm an old 50+ developer who has had to reinvent myself several times throughout my career. And while a lot of really good new developments for, um, developers have come our way, a lot of valuable things from the past have been lost. For instance, I continually cringe when needing to write SQL code within some other language. There was a time when database access was actually a fundamental part of the language. 4th generation languages, for instance, are largely forgotten - but they really were useful. Same goes for ISAM data access. It is insanely efficient compared to what we typically do today.

      Yes, SQL is great for some tasks, but most of that functionality is merely overhead for the sorts of common tasks and application has to perform on a daily basis. If I have the primary key to a table, it's wasteful to generate a query when I can just say 'get me this'.

      This is where NoSQL proponents might pipe in with new solutions. But those aren't usually good solutions for general purposes. I've seen too many over-normalized databases over the years, and talked to their proponents. They propagate an ideology of theory over practical considerations.

      The thing is though, Pascal excels (or can excel) at all of these things. I'm really referring to Delphi here. The component library available is huge and varied, By your choice it is 100% open source, or completely proprietary, or a mix. In fact, the only major problem I've ever had with Delphi is rebuilding your development environment on a new machine, because you've installed so many tools over the years.

      With Delphi, I could drop a terminal emulator on a form and have it working in five minutes. Or I could resort to in-line assembly language if needed. I could, off the top of my head, develop web apps in at least three totally different ways.

      I saw a comment further up the pages that asked why we need Pascal when we have C++, Java and Python. Well, seeing as how Pascal predated all of these, and will do everything those do, why do we need the newer languages?

      I really encourage younger developers to give it chance. You can install and use Lazarus for free. I feel that Delphi is better polished and reliable, But if you're really an open source advocate, then contribute to Lazarus and/or Free Pascal.

      Having had some experience with most of these other technologies, I think you might be surprised at how much you're missing.