Slashdot Mirror


Can Students Have Too Much Tech?

theodp writes: In a NY Times Op Ed, developmental psychologist Susan Pinker goes against the conventional White House wisdom about the importance of Internet connectivity for schoolchildren and instead argues that students can have too much tech. "More technology in the classroom has long been a policy-making panacea," Pinker writes. "But mounting evidence shows that showering students, especially those from struggling families, with networked devices will not shrink the class divide in education. If anything, it will widen it." Tech can help the progress of children, Pinker acknowledges, but proper use is the rub. As a cautionary tale, Pinker cites a study by Duke economists that tracked the academic progress of nearly one million disadvantaged middle-school students against the dates they were given networked computers. The news was not good. "Students who gain access to a home computer between the 5th and 8th grades tend to witness a persistent decline in reading and math scores," the economists wrote, adding that license to surf the Internet was also linked to lower grades in younger children.

25 of 198 comments (clear)

  1. This is not new. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 5, Informative

    Every serious (read "non-vendor-sponsored") study for the last 20 years has shown that computers in school hinder education.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:This is not new. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Except for very bright students, Then it is discovered that the teachers and dumbed down education hinders students more.

      If you are on either side of the bell curve you need special education. Low IQ need more hand holding, High IQ need the teachers to get the hell out of the way.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:This is not new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can read a Superman comic or a physics book. You can watch the A-Team or the Science Guy. You can play Call of Duty or write a recursive descent parser. Technology isn't the problem, but it's also not the great equalizer. It's what you do with it that advances you or holds you back. Technology is an accelerator, an amplifier, in every direction.

    3. Re:This is not new. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      TFA is conflating very different issues:
      1. "Tech in the classroom" is NOT the same thing as "teaching tech". Just dumping a bunch of laptops and iPads into a classroom accomplishes nothing. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach programming to kids. They are completely different issues.
      2. "The digital divide" is NOT a problem. It is a symptom. The problem is dumb/poor kids doing poorly. The fact that other kids are doing well is a good thing, not a bad thing. We should focus on ALL kids doing better, not closing the gap by pulling the smart kids down.

    4. Re:This is not new. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      We should NOT be teaching programming in school, any more than we teach antenna design, television show production, lens grinding, or other trades. Especially when those who are interested are already learning it on their own.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    5. Re:This is not new. by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      Having bad teachers means paying taxes.

      What WAS your point with that?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    6. Re:This is not new. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The kids who are interested will already know more than an intro class can teach them. It's the same as thinking of giving an course on how to win at FPS games - those who are interested already know how, and for the rest it's just a waste of time.

      I tried to get my two daughters interested in programming, and now I'm happy they didn't bite. Competition is going up, salaries and benefits are going down, and the "up or out" attitude would leave them with no job when they hit 40.

      Better that they learn to use computers just as a tool, to write, to do spreadsheets, and to play games and surf the web. Programming is fast becoming a dead-end job, same as web design already is.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:This is not new. by pepty · · Score: 2

      Better that they learn to use computers just as a tool, to write, to do spreadsheets, and to play games and surf the web.

      I never wanted to be (and am certainly not now) a programmer, but getting my feet wet allowed me to write scripts that made my work so much faster over the years, whether it was VBA macros for researching patents or *nix shell scripts for assisting in running molecular dynamics simulations.

      Even if they never have to deal with spreadsheets, they will be dealing with the web every day, and knowing a tiny bit of HTML can make that a lot nicer. Even if you are just posting an ad in Craigslist (or a comment on Slashdot).

      I can see an intro to Python and HTML paying off in lots of ways, first and foremost by encouraging them to think "there has got to be a better way" whenever they are looking at a simple but repetitive task.

    8. Re:This is not new. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 3, Informative

      Instead of that, better off teaching them how to apply flow charting to making real-life decisions. At least it teaches them a logical approach to breaking down many everyday problems.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  2. Tools make it easier to accomplish tasks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A general purpose computer is a powerful tool for many tasks. However like all tools some personal discovery and possibly training to aid that discovery are required to make the best use of the tool.

    Just throwing money, or tools of any kind, at a given problem isn't going to inherently address the problem. Tools need actual critical thinking and artistry of use taught to be effective.

    1. Re:Tools make it easier to accomplish tasks. by TWX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A general purpose computer is only useful if the student is willing to use it for a certain specific purpose. Given that there's a whole lot of temptation to use it for things that the student wants to do, rather than the things that the student is supposed to do, it can be incredibly easy to not be productive with the very machine that was intended to increase productivity.

      I don' think that general-purpose computers should be used in schools without software to limit the use of the computers. That can be for a duration, like during class time or during the school day, or it can be full-time, so that a computer is still limited to its intended function in its entirety, but leaving computers open to do anything just means that much more opportunity to not do work.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:Tools make it easier to accomplish tasks. by Livius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just throwing money, or tools of any kind, at a given problem isn't going to inherently address the problem.

      Throwing money at a problem generally leads to a well-funded problem, not a solution.

  3. Babysitter? by Darth+Hubris · · Score: 2

    Are they measuring adult/supervisory interaction in these studies? Technology can't be a baby sitter for children/students. "What's this website 'Imgur'?"

    --
    The party's over ... the drink ... and the luck ... ran out
  4. Who did they compare against? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Who were these "one million disadvantaged middle-school students" compared to in order to determine that there was a "persistent decline in reading and math scores"?

    Were they compared against their own scores from earlier testing?

    What's to say that the decline wouldn't have happened anyway over the same time period, even if they hadn't been exposed to computers and the Internet?

    Ages 11 to 15 are when many "disadvantaged" (that is, black) youth start to get involved with gangs, drugs, violence, and not going to school. We can see this in any major American city, and even most smaller ones. With over 95% of black youth being affiliated with one or more gangs in some areas, which usually results in a failure to attend school, I can't see how there wouldn't be a decline.

    What's the real problem here? Is it computers and the Internet, or is it really just the toxic modern black culture that glorifies harmful behavior and shuns self-improvement? Are the researchers unable or unwilling to admit what the real problem is?

  5. This pays credence to my rant about tech by bogaboga · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, I have never liked tech in class. Never!

    "Students who gain access to a home computer between the 5th and 8th grades tend to witness a persistent decline in reading and math scores," the economists wrote, adding that license to surf the Internet was also linked to lower grades in younger children.

    About me: I am a former full-time teacher:

    Now my $0.02.

    That's why kids from the so called "third world," that come here consistently beat our own kids in all subjects that really matter. Why? Their brains were conditioned to think. They only used PCs if they had any, at home. And only when homework was complete. Homework done the "old fashined" way.

    Look folks, there's so much distraction in class that kids can't really learn. It's hard for such young minds to focus. The trouble is that our learned colleagues submit studies that are clearly biased, and what can you say? The contract to supply the latest gadget is inked! It's a sad state of affairs now. The so called "third world kids" when here, quickly catch up with tech and do even better. Is anyone listening?

    1. Re:This pays credence to my rant about tech by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 4, Informative

      At the college level though I see a different kind of problem. Many of the people from 3rd world countries I have encountered do VERY well at rote memorization tasks and can often solve engineering problems that are almost exactly what they have done before but when you step outside of that they quickly run into problems. I find that american and canadian engineers are more likely to rely on a computer to solve the hard math part but they are much better at figuring out how to define the problem and what should be done to solve it.

      I am not sure why but most european countries still seem to do rote memorization for many disciplines and base all grades on a single 2 hour exam. It is all pretty silly. Maybe some day education won't be confused with memorization.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    2. Re:This pays credence to my rant about tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's why kids from the so called "third world," that come here consistently beat our own kids in all subjects that really matter.

      This is a very shortsighted way to look at the situation. There are a number of problems with it.

      It doesn't take into account that the third world students you talk about aren't the average students in their home nation. They're typically the children of the local elite, and enrolled in private schools. But the American students they're compared against are usually average students from within the public education system.

      Of course the 0.001% of the best and brightest Pakistani or Nigerian youth put through expensive private school programs will be able to do better than the average students of a public school in the Bronx. Something would be terribly wrong if the opposite were true!

      Another thing to consider is that the rote memorization that is useful for doing well on tests that check one's ability to regurgitate information rarely helps in the real world, where innovative thought and problem solving is far more valuable.

      I have to hire software developers periodically. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that while candidates trained in India can regurgitate information, they rarely have acquired the skills necessary to solve novel and unique problems. If it isn't described in the Javadocs, then they have no idea how to do it, and they even have no idea about how to go about finding out how to do it.

      I'll gladly hire somebody who maybe can't spew out Java class or method names on demand, but who can instead think for themselves and work through problems. I do not want to hire somebody who can vomit up easily researchable information, but who can't figure out what to do when a real world oddity or quirk ends up making a problem somewhat harder to solve.

      I'll take American- or European-trained students over third world-trained students any day.

  6. Its not that there's too much tech... by Zombie+Ryushu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Its what tech, and how the tech is used. Both in the Apple and Microsoft Camp, our schools have been and are being fleeced for billions possibly Trillions to buy grade school and high school kids toys, from MacBooks, to iPads, to Surface Tablets. Linux and Android technologies that could be used to teach effective use of problem solving in Math, science, Literacy, and assistive technologies for the Disabled are being shut out to prop up wholesale robbery of the tax payer to buy media consumption platforms to create an addict user base that is helpless without effective tools.

    1. Re:Its not that there's too much tech... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Informative

      Buying stuff is easy.

      Teaching is hard.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  7. The web can be a great tool... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...or a great distraction. Not too surprising that handing a kid a tablet and turning him loose doesn't work out too well, but what do I know, I've only work in educational IT for 20 years. A properly supported computer (don't try to make teachers into sys admins) supervised by a properly trained teacher can be very useful in a classroom setting. But training and support are expensive and unsexy, so who the hell wants that?

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  8. The tests are the problem. by blue+trane · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Students can be motivated in other ways than by tests and grades. Using tests and grades really teaches kids that they should dislike school.

    Alfie Kohn makes The Case Against Grades.

    A favorite passage:

    although teachers may be required to submit a final grade, there's no requirement for them to decide unilaterally what that grade will be. Thus, students can be invited to participate in that process either as a negotiation (such that the teacher has the final say) or by simply permitting students to grade themselves. If people find that idea alarming, it's probably because they realize it creates a more democratic classroom, one in which teachers must create a pedagogy and a curriculum that will truly engage students rather than allow teachers to coerce them into doing whatever they're told. In fact, negative reactions to this proposal ("It's unrealistic!") point up how grades function as a mechanism for controlling students rather than as a necessary or constructive way to report information about their performance.

  9. The trouble lies in communicating by Hasaf · · Score: 2

    You are right, in many circles this is well known. The trouble is that it is often not communicated to the decision makers.

    I teach at a disadvantaged middle school and I see this on a constant basis. To make it worse, I teach computer applications and business. I see the students off task and falling behind even with active monitoring. Yes, it is the students that need the most help in advancing themselves that are the first to go off task.

    Some of the off task behavior is that the devices have already become toys; as such, that is what they see them as, even in the classroom. There is also the reality of cognitive development challenges in may poor households, they may simply lack the ability to stay on task without monitoring (this is a whole body of research and no, I am not going to write an easy on this topic here).

    To make it worse, my school district is one considering issuing chrome-books to students. Like everyone else, they are hoping they can just buy something that will bring about improvement. There is little that will replace low teacher/student ratios and up to date teaching material; however, the districts will keep trying.

    Considering that it is my job, there are places for technology into classroom. As many others have said, the problem is that the students sees, largely as a result of conditioning, the technology as toys and meed careful supervision, and instruction, to get the most out of the technology.

  10. Anecdote, completely non-scientific by symbolset · · Score: 2

    We started our youngest two on computers at 12 months. They moved on to tablets not long after. They were reading at a sixth grade level before preschool. Our very youngest has been accepted to and attending a school for the gifted, as she reads at a college level now and is also good at math. She publishes how-to articles online and is working on a serial drama in the fan-fiction genre that has fans among her peers - without prompting or assistance. She's eight. She lies on the forms to get around the TOS. She has gotten her older brother interested in authorship as well. Their littler nephew was showing me the other day how to modify the network settings on my Android tablet to join his Minecraft server. He is six.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  11. no kidding by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2

    Using tech is not the same thing as understanding tech. People have been making this mistake since PC's went mainstream.

    A PC using kid in 1980 was likely a smart geeky kid. A "tech" using kid in 2015? Not so much. Sure, a few of them ... just like it was a few kids back then.

  12. Order of magnitude vs. precise by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    IMHO, an important skill is order-of-magnitude calculations. If you subtract US$79.99 from your bank balance in a checking account, you should realize something is wrong if your balance drops by $1000 instead of near to $100. Same for political-type calculations relating to roughly how many people are in a country and how much some policy might cost if it costs $X per person and so on (by rounding, to get a ballpark figure). Without that basic skill, people are completely at the mercy of the machines or their own fat finger typing or unscrupulous other people.

    Order-of-magnitude calculation is the sort of skill people picked up quickly using slide rules. :-)
    "Simulated Pickett N909-ES Slide Rule"
    http://www.antiquark.com/slide...

    "Slip-stick" engineering pretty much got us to the Moon and back. :-) Even if no doubt more precise calculations were made along the way at some point.

    But precise calculations are indeed perhaps better turned over to calculators, so people can focus on other things. There are only so many things we can pay attention to or remember at one time.

    Yes, I did learn to do a square root on paper at some point, not that I recall it much now. But I don't feel especially weaker for not being able to do that at the moment. And even if I did recall the procedure, what would be the point in using it to determine the square root of 99 if I could punch use a calculator? Again though, being able to check the result roughly would be important though, to know the correct result must be somewhere around 10 and not 5 and not 20.

    Just out of curiosity:
    "How to calculate a square root without a calculator"
    http://www.homeschoolmath.net/...

    One example comment there (from an "Instructor of Mathematics"):
    "I vaguely recall learning the square root algorithm in K-12, but frankly, I see no value in this algorithm except as a curiosity. And I am not of the "reform" crowd. I fully believe students not be given a calculator to use until advanced algebra or pre-calculus, and then only a scientific calculator (not graphing). Do you really believe student at the K-7 level will understand how/why this algorithm works? I was happy to see that you recommended the "estimate and check" method. This is what I also recommended to my daughter, who is now studying square roots in her home school curriculum. The "estimate and check" method is a good exercise in estimating, multiplying, and also memorizing perfect squares. ..."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.