Japan Now Has More Car Charging Points Than Gas Stations

An anonymous reader writes: One of the biggest impediments to getting more electric cars on the road is the lack of charging infrastructure. When there's a gas station every other mile and you have to struggle to find a charging station, it's difficult to make a case for convenience and reliability. But this is changing, particularly in smaller, more technologically advanced countries like Japan. Nissan found that there are now about 40,000 charging points in Japan, compared to about 34,000 gas stations. Granted, not all of those charging spots are available to the public — some are in people's homes. But it shows the infrastructure is making real gains. Also, the article suggests an Airbnb-like system may crop up for people to utilize each other's charging stations. It adds, "As charging stations become more common, electric-car support services are also emerging. Open Charge Map, for example, operates an online listing of public charging points worldwide. A mobile app combines the data with GPS technology to guide drivers to the nearest site."

Comments

Not quite comparable

[rossdee]

At a gas station it doesn't take you long to fill your tamk. Charging an electric vehicle takes a lot longer so theres less turnover.
(Perhaps even all day, or at least all 8 hrs of a shift)

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, wouldn't it be better to compare it to the total number of pumps?

Re:Not quite comparable

[Sangui5]

Not only that, but basically all gasoline cars have better range than the electric ones, which means a longer time between gas-tank fills vs charge-ups.

So, each chargepoint needs to be used more often, and for far far longer. Calling it "not quite comparable" is quite the understatement.

Re:Not quite comparable

[runningduck]

Yes, however you very rarely need to go to a public charge station. Most charging is done at home while you sleep or for some people while they work. I understand that this is not practical for apartment dwellers, but keep in mind that any standard outlet can recharge the typical driving range over night; no charge station needed.

A more important metric might be how many public charge stations are necessary compared to gas stations.

Re: Not quite comparable

[teslar]

And a petrol station tends to service several cars simultaneously - from a couple to several dozen - charge points, not so much.

Re:Not quite comparable

[ShanghaiBill]

At a gas station it doesn't take you long to fill your tank.

But you have to make a special stop at a gas station. An electric charging station can be installed almost anywhere. My local Wal-Mart and Costco have them in the parking lot. So you can recharge while you shop. They are also available in many employee parking lots, close to the entrance. So you can recharge while you work. And, of course, you can put one in your garage and recharge while you sleep.

Re:Not quite comparable

[buchner.johannes]

At a gas station it doesn't take you long to fill your tamk. Charging an electric vehicle takes a lot longer so theres less turnover.
(Perhaps even all day, or at least all 8 hrs of a shift)

It takes 1 minute, 30 seconds.
A electric charging "gas station" could just replace the batteries in cars and charge its pool of batteries independent of the cars.

Re:Not quite comparable

[knightghost]

Exactly.

As for "topping off" during the day, why not just use a regular outlet? A special outlet isn't economical.

The target for electric cars is as a 2nd or 3rd car for a family. They'd still have a primary gas car for long trips.

Re:Not quite comparable

[IronicToo]

How many are in the 120 kW range (that is what a tesla supercharger provides)? And how many cars can accept that kind of power (answer, only Teslas)? They are the only car company that is realistically addressing this problem, regular 10 Amp, or 20 Amp, or even 40 Amp circuits are almost useless unless it is at a hotel and you are spending the night. Until more people start helping Tesla build out the infrastructure, and making cars to accept high charge rates, electric cars will be a niche product.

Re:Not quite comparable

[FatLittleMonkey]

Companies can also install them just by hiring an ordinary commercial electrician (or an industrial electrician for the fast-charge options). They don't need specific govt approval or licences, nor conduct EIS studies, nor do major construction. They can add points to light-poles in your open-air carpark, or run them along walls in a parking structure. Much less infrastructure than bowsers.

You can install an outside (unmetered) 240VAC/20A power-point for maybe $50 parts plus labour. A standard three-phase (400V/30A) box w/- EFTPOS is about $600, plus labour. A DC 30m-fast-charge station w/- EFTPOS is about $3000, plus some back-end costs for the DC. The low cost means a company can add a row of free 240V charging points just for PR, even if they don't get used much; then ramp up to faster charging and paid charging (charged charging?) once they gauge demand or the number of BEVs increases.

There's vastly less commitment required to get started. And the financial return-per-point can be vastly less for it to be worthwhile.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

At a gas station it doesn't take you long to fill your tamk. Charging an electric vehicle takes a lot longer so theres less turnover.
(Perhaps even all day, or at least all 8 hrs of a shift)

If you are measuring like that, then every single house has multiple charging points pre-installed. Something that can't be said for gasoline.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Mr D from 63]

A more important metric might be how many public charge stations are necessary compared to gas stations.

One factor is length of charge. Number of gas pumps in a station is selected to service customers and prevent waiting. Customers don't like to wait for more than one person in front of them, and you usually don't have to wait.

Since charge times are longer, customers will want to connect immediately and not wait for 15 minutes just to start charging. So, in that regard, you would want more stations relative to the number of customers in a given timeframe, so there would zero waiting. How many that is, I have no idea, but obviously its an evolving market, and most e-car owners would plan to charge at home, at work, or while doing some other activity.

Re:Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

and yet, the electric cars charge at nighttime at home, while the gas cars MUST go for fill-ups.

Re: Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

with far more ICE cars on the road, you are far more likely to find a station that will have a 5-10 minute waiting line, while you will rarely not find an empty charger (since at nearly all places, they have at least 2 charge points).

Re:Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

If we change our subsidy structure to encourage 150 MPC, it will lead to electric cars bring the primary cars, while gas becomes the secondary .

Re:Not quite comparable

[jklovanc]

Problems.
1. Very few cars have swapable batteries because they are difficult to impiment.
2. The card that do have swapable batteries are not standardized. Tesla
3. It is more difficult to design a car with a swapable battery as the swapping mechanism is more complex and the battery can not be buried in the frame.
4. That is not what the article is talking about.
5. The only company that has tried to go public with this technology had gone bankrupt

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

My Suburban travels over 600 miles per tank and gas stations are ubiquitous. Can your electric vehicle carry my two Mastiffs and four humans in comfort while enhancing agricultural productivity?

Re:Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

First off, Tesla's SCs are about to jump to 160 KW range.
Secondly, there are 2 other types of fast DC chargers. That leads to the US having more than 770 stations with these. Go to the search options and change to DC fast only.
Third, if you change the connectors to Tesla and J1772, you can see what the Tesla has as options. As such, this shows that Tesla is NOT a joke, or a niche product.

However, the others ARE niche products because if you turn off Tesla on the connectors and turn on J1772, along with chademo, you realize that massive car companies have NO intention of building out a real network.
What is needed is to get Apple and Google to build new electric car companies predicated on Tesla electric. That will force all others to join on due to fear of losing ground to companies that are superior to theirs.

Re:Not quite comparable

[eth1]

Actually if you're comparing it to public filling stations, number of cars filled per hour or per day would probably be a better comparison.

A single gas pump can probably do about 12 cars per hour (5 minutes for the full transaction). If it takes 6 hours to charge a car, that single pump could fill as many cars as 72 charging stations. Or 7.2 or so 30-minute Supercharger stations (6 + 20%, since it doesn't fill to full, and you'd have to stop and tie up another charging station sooner).

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

> They'd still have a primary gas car for long trips.

In Japan and most elsewhere outside USA, that primary long trip item is called a train, sometimes aeroplane.

(Italy has most cars per capita in Europe, even more than Germany, but many people there shun long journeys at the steering wheel, riding the Freccia-Rossa instead when going from Milan to Naples or similar. It helps that people from different regions of Italy have poor opinion of each other: a turinese thinks he would surely get killed in a crash in the road chaos of Naples, while neapolitans think they would die of boredom at the wheel in traffic-lights obeying Milan. In Europe, solely the germans have a US-like fascination with long-distance car riding. I rode a swiss-made Stadler Flirt light rail back and forth today: totally amazing and meeting people is included in the price!)

Re:Not quite comparable

[ShanghaiBill]

that single pump could fill as many cars as 72 charging stations

Sure, but the gas pump costs far more, a gas station takes up valuable retail space, and requires an attendant. Electric charging stations are installed in garages and parking lots, where cars are sitting anyway, so they take up a negligible amount of net space.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Or number of pumps + number of gas cans?

Re:Not quite comparable

[Doppler00]

It takes me about 15 seconds to plug in my car at home. If I'm using a public station it takes maybe 30 seconds (some time to activate). As long as I'm doing something else useful while it's charging I'm spending less time than I would be staring at the price total on a pump at a gas station.

Re:Not quite comparable

[nukenerd]

every single house has multiple charging points pre-installed. Something that can't be said for gasoline.

I keep a couple of jerry cans in my garage at home and my wife's car is always filled from them. Doesn't that count?

[To pre-empt the question "Why?" It is because the way the discounts work at my local gas station. The more you buy in one go the better. So I fill my car and the two jerry cans at the same time.]

Re: Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

First off, nobody uses suburbans for ag. productivity.
And yes, the coming Model X can not only carry 5 adults humans, 2 mastiffs, and plenty of cargo, all while towing MORE than your suburban.

However, it does not go 600 miles on a charge. That is true. However, you pay over 100 TODAY for that 600 miles, AND will pay over $200 for that, when gas prices return. OTOH, Tesla will be free to move around the nation.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

They do enhance agricultural productivity by increasing CO2. ;)

My Suburban is rated to tow 8000 pounds. Are you seriously suggesting the little crossover X can do that? Let's say that it can. How far? And, I can assure you that there is no room in the X rear area for two dogs, 225 and 240 pounds. Please be serious.

On the flip side: I think electric vehicles are excellent for many, maybe even most, everyday uses. After all, most people average less than 40 miles per day. So, an all electric would clearly work fine. They are simply not the universal panacea that electric fanatics purport. If we are serious about electrics, we should also upgrade the grid to support the plan. Too bad all the stimulus money was not put to that use, which would actually have accomplished something useful.

Re:Not quite comparable

[AmiMoJo]

I'm an EV driver (Leaf) and I can tell you that public charging is not going to be that important in the near future, and battery swapping well probably never take off.

Current EVs do need charging for long trips, but even so most charging is at home or at work and public chargers are just a nice free bonus. In 2016 Nissan is releasing a Leaf with 250 mile range, so charging will be even less important.

Current rapid charging takes 45 minutes, but usually you don't do a full charge because it's quicker to do multiple 20 minute charges. The charge rate slows above 80%. By the time you need a charge you want to stop for a drink or walk about anyway.

Basically, charging is a solved problem in Japan. As cars improve in the next few years it will be a nice incentive to visit places, but that's it.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

I've yet to see electric fanatics claiming universal suitability for all use cases, but I have seen plenty of people bring up singular cases where they contend they needed an ICE vehicle and thus all electric vehicles are useless.

But let's assume they have. Then OK, but sides can be a little less intemperate with their remarks.

As for the grid, yeah, it did need updating, but then the stimulus needed to be more money and less tax cuts. Still, my utility got money for it. If you want too tell the Republican Congress to do it again, more power to you. Just don't let a company like Enron get involved.

Re:Not quite comparable

[CanadianMacFan]

You don't necessarily need more stations. Because you aren't dealing with a dangerous product you can easily redesign the layout of your station to accommodate more vehicles at one time. Instead of the normal four or six pumps (at least it's normal for around my area) you could have parking spaces for fifteen or twenty cars with chargers. Then you spruce up your convenience store to make the time spent while waiting for the car to charge go by a bit easier. Maybe have a spot to socialize or a sit down area for drinks with free wi-fi. You aren't limited to the old model.

Re:Not quite comparable

[runningduck]

I cannot tell if you are stuck thinking in a traditional gas station paradigm or are making my point for me. You are correct that there needs to be many more places to charge electric cars. But you seem to be mixing home charging with public charging. You should never have to wait in line at home unless you have two electric cars and only one outlet. By the way, it can cost as little as $150 to add an outlet. Of the approximately 600 times I have charged my car I have only plugged into public stations three times, and none of those times was absolutely necessary.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't let a company like Enron get involved.

Or, Evergreen Solar, SpectrWatt, Solyndra, Beacon Power, Ener1, Abound Solar, A123 Systems, Willard & Kelsey Solar Group, Raser Technologies, Energy Conversion Devices, Mountain Plaza, Range Fuels, Thompson River Power, Stirling Energy Systems, Azure Dynamics, Nordic Windpower, Satcon and Konarka Technologies.

The >$1.5B that went to these boondoggles could have done some good but went to Democrat cronies, instead.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, a list of names, but you know what? There's a difference between trying to build a product and failing, and the outright criminal activity of Enron in manufacturing a power crisis for their own profit.

The failure rate in the Department of Energy's Loan Guarantee program is still with estimated limits. In fact, it is profitable right now, even aside from the public benefits. And for all the handwringing about Solyndra, the fact is, they built a factory, they had a product, and it worked. What happened? Solar panel prices plummeted, perhaps due to other developments, perhaps due to Chinbese dumping. Not any actual malfeasance on their part. So like Tucker, convicting them of fraud would not be possible. If you can find any examples of actual fraud among your litany of names, go ahead. Tell us how much money is involved.

Meanwhile, the Enron Fraud was larger than the whole federal loan program, with billions more in related harm.

Re:Not quite comparable

[SuricouRaven]

Captive market!

Re:Not quite comparable

[Bing Tsher E]

And electricity is free, which is why there is no need for an attendant? I think if I lived in Japan, I would buy an old jalopy car that run on gasoline, load it up with batteries to charge at the 'free' charging station and park the old jalopy next to my house. Free electricity for my house!

Re:Not quite comparable

[Bing Tsher E]

They charge at night, if you happen to own your dwelling and have a garage to base the charger out of. Or, I suppose, your landlord will smile and say "of course" when asked to put charging stations at each spot in the parking lot. For free! Or better yet, the taxpayers can pay for it!

Re:Not quite comparable

[Bing Tsher E]

Here in Indiana, I can buy a vintage Stanley Steamer if I want a coal fired vehicle. Or I can buy an electric car and plug it into the grid.

Re:Not quite comparable

[SuricouRaven]

The battery idea has some problems. Batteries are not interchangeable - age and quality matters. You might drive up to the station with a shiny new battery, get it replaced - and your new battery is two years old and only has half the effective capacity. Or worse, you might get given a battery which was previously damaged in an accident and is now prone to catch fire, or which a previous owner hacked to disable the under-voltage protection circuit and squeeze a bit more capacity from while ruining the cells, or which was manufactured by the cheapest factory in China with a counterfeir controller chip - all things that expose the station operator to liability. The only way it would work would be to inspect every battery as it came in and before sending it out again, which means every station needs a skilled attendant and frequently needs to buy new batteries. Expensive.

Re:Not quite comparable

[knightghost]

I'd prefer just eliminating the subsidies so that my taxes go down.

Re:Not quite comparable

[ShanghaiBill]

And electricity is free, which is why there is no need for an attendant?

Some of them are indeed free. For most, you insert a credit card to pay. Either way, there is no need for an attendant. I have never seen an attendant at an electric charging station. Attendants at gas stations are not there to prevent people from stealing gas, they are there for safety.

Re:Not quite comparable

[quantaman]

The battery idea has some problems. Batteries are not interchangeable - age and quality matters. You might drive up to the station with a shiny new battery, get it replaced - and your new battery is two years old and only has half the effective capacity. Or worse, you might get given a battery which was previously damaged in an accident and is now prone to catch fire, or which a previous owner hacked to disable the under-voltage protection circuit and squeeze a bit more capacity from while ruining the cells, or which was manufactured by the cheapest factory in China with a counterfeir controller chip - all things that expose the station operator to liability. The only way it would work would be to inspect every battery as it came in and before sending it out again, which means every station needs a skilled attendant and frequently needs to buy new batteries. Expensive.

You own the car but the auto-maker owns the battery and automatically replaces bad batteries free of charge.

You go up to the charging station swap out the spent for the new, the spent goes to a charging station that runs a diagnostic during charging, if the battery fails the diagnostic the attendant sets it aside, then once a week they call the automaker who sends someone around to pick up the duds and drop off replacements.

Since owners don't need to buy replacement batteries there's less of a market for counterfeits, and if you can make the verification works the only extra labour is the weekly exchange.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Firethorn]

1. Own a home with no garage? Install the charger outside. It'll cost a bit more for a weather rated one, but not that much more.
2. Landlords - as electric cars become more common, being able to rent to somebody with an electric car becomes a selling point, thus an incentive to install one. Lets you charge more rent and/or attract more/better tenants.
3. Taxpayers will pay for a little of it, it's tax deductible.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Firethorn]

You aren't limited to the old model.

I tend to see it as more disruptive. Sure, the gas stations can spruce up their store, what if the local mall installs a couple hundred* chargers? What if you're trying to decide between TGIF and Ruby Tuesday, driving an EV, and know one has chargers and one doesn't?

What if department stores start putting them in?

While you're at it, to keep the drain down, install solar car shades.

*Or something along the lines of they install 10 chargers. When they notice that usage is over 75% for more than a couple hours a day(IE an EV owner going to the mall can no longer count on getting one with near certainty), they double the number.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

You, as do many of your ilk, missed the point. The money wasted on schemes that markets had already rejected but were funded anyway by DOE could have been used for something worthwhile. Many people, of all political persuasions, agree that our power infrastructure is outdated. Stimulus funds could have made a sizable dent in that problem but were wasted, producing no tangible benefit.

As to Enron: you are correct. It was a massive fraud on private investors and many people in managerial roles went to jail. Kenneth Lay "cheated the hangman" and that is a shame. He should have been executed as he and his conspirators ruined lives as effectively as a murderer. So, egregious as it was, the whole episode has little bearing on the present discussion.

The recipients of DOE largesse cited in the list are not as lily white as you portray. Many of them manipulated assets and funds supplied under the program to their own benefit and remain unaccounted. You ignore the simple truth that large amounts of easy money encourage the worst behavior. DOE's approach is almost exactly wrong. It is heavily weighted toward huge programs. They should instead pursue the proven DARPA model of small demonstration projects requiring modest outlay. Another division of a company for whom I worked received hundreds of millions in DOE funding. It was an ongoing joke within the company to compare poorly conceived and administered projects to the DOE. The contention was that DOE had never completed a project on schedule, budget or meeting stated goals and none over $1B.

You may think it is a great idea to profligately waste taxpayer money, I don't. There are roles where government can have a beneficial influence, as in the previous DARPA example. Acting as venture capitalists is not one of them.

Re:Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

Actually, if we drop all of the energy subsidies, your money spent will go WAY up. The good news though, is that AE would suddenly take off since it is no longer competing against heavily subsidized fossil fuel.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Mr D from 63]

I think you are trying to read something into my words. The focus of the OP was public charging stations and how many there would need to be compared to the old gas pump. I was not stuck in any way of thinking, I was pointing out that for those that need a charge to keep going from a public station, they will not want to wait. There must be a station available. Layout is just a function of the number of chargers and space available.

I mentioned that most people will be charging at home and at other places when they are not in their car, hence "activities". That means fewer customers pulling up to a public station for a quick recharge.

Right now, the market is limited mostly to people who charge at home and at work, and have another car for longer travel. That market will evolve, and the need for a quick recharge will likely increase as it does.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Mr D from 63]

You don't necessarily need more stations.

You need as many as you need. You need enough to keep people from waiting for someone else to finish. There needs to be a charger available for a person when they pull up. That number is only determined by the number of people that need a recharge on the go, which should be a smaller percentage of overall EV drivers since most plan around the need for road charging.

Layout is irrelevant, it is simply a function of number of chargers needed and space available.

Re:Not quite comparable

[tompaulco]

Actually, if we drop all of the energy subsidies, your money spent will go WAY up.

Of course, that is not possible because the energy subsidies are coming from somewhere, ie taxes. If the energy subsidies were dropped, the total money spent would be the same. In fact lower because of the "handling charge" that the government gets for taxing you and giving it to the energy companies.

Re: Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

No, the Model X is rated to hold 8 adults: 2 in front, 3 in the middle and 3 in the back. Yes, it can easily hold 2 mastiffs which I seriously doubt that you own
And the X will have 691 hp and 687 lb. ft. And that torque is at 0 MPH. IOW, it is right where you need it. In addition, the motors will not only be liquid cooled, but will actually have an active heat exchanger since it is expected to pull a great deal more than something like a suburban (which is pretty much a junk vehicle designed to carry a bunch of brats for suburban moms ).

And as to the grid, get real. Multiple studies have been done. Other than in the northwest, the grid is rock solid to handle moving 100% of America's vehicles over to it, as long as not more than 15% are charged in the daytime (which is why I hate hybrids).

Re:Not quite comparable

[tompaulco]

You can't just go around taking on 240 Volt 20 Amp outlets everywhere. The wiring from the panel has to be large enough to accommodate the current. Where I live, that would be 6 gauge wire. This is not the typical wire running to a typical lightpole. Light poles are usually 110 Volt, so you would probably be missing a wire and the wire would not be large enough because even overhead streetlamps are typically 400 watts on the high side and that is less than 4 Amps at 110 Volts.
Then you have to consider whether your panel is even able to provide the service needed to power a couple of people plugged into 240 Volt 20 Amp circuits. A large home may have as much as 200 Amp service (rated according to 110 Volts). A parking garage may have 200 Amp service if they are running elevators, soda machines and the like. Otherwise, lights don't take much power, so they may only have 50 or 100 Amp service. If they have 200 Amp service (at 110V) that is only 100 Amps at 220V, or enough to power only 5 outlets simultaneously assuming that no other lights or electrical devices are in use. Upgrading the service on the box may require upgrading the incoming electrical service., which could potentially involve having to upgrade electrical substations.
So no, unfortunately, it is not a simple matter of buying a 220V 20 Amp dock and slapping it up on a lightpole.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Except it isn't profligate waste. You claimed a number of 1.5 billion. Out of a program of 40 billion? Show some ability to discern there. I'm not even going to bother to dispute your number, because at the worst, you have a sub five percent failure rate. It isn't like private banks never have failures in loans, for whatever reasons that occur. And right now, it is a net positive program. So yay.

Now personally, I didn't support that particular program as a whole and still don't, but I'm not going to be hyperbolic about it and treat it as if it were somehow a great abomination when there are far more egregious examples of demonstratedly criminal conduct to beware. It's merely not the way I would have undertaken it.

The people at Enron? I wouldn't use them to make compost. The companies you named? While I wouldn't blindly trust them as I would my own mother, that doesn't mean I couldn't be convinced to employ them. They might well be capable of being valuable contributors to improving the national grid. They could have appropriate technologies and engineering knowledge. I don't actually know though, they haven't submitted any bids to this hypothetical discussion.

But I won't rule them out just because they're in your list.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it takes 90 seconds to do a battery yank and replace on a Tesla.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

How often will you need a range longer than 270 miles provided by the Tesla Model S? Especially when you can recharge it every night at your house and also get FREE charging at any of the Tesla charge stations?

Re: Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

The electric motor in a Tesla has far more torque than your outdated gas burning engine.

Chevrolet Suburban - 383 lb-ft
Tesla Model S P85D - 687 lb-ft

In addition, the peak torque in a Tesla is instantly available, whereas in your redneck, small penis compensating truck you have to wait for your revs to kick up.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would my landlord give a shit? It's not like she pays my electric bill. And what charging station? It plugs directly into a standard wall socket.

Re:Not quite comparable

[WindBourne]

Nope.
Once we stop subsidizing oil/gas/coal, then our total bill will go up for sometime while the economy re-adjust to real expensive oil/nat gas. The good news is that in less than 10 years, we would be importing no extra energy, and our taxes would be way down.

Sadly, we could make it so that we imported no energy in less than 5 years with some smart policies. And at the same time, cut our co2 emissions sot hat few can claim that America is the big polluter (we are not, China is; but the refrain will not go away ).

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

last time I checked they were charging thousands and thousands (in some case 5-10k) for a battery, I can't see auto makers covering that cost unless you want to pay an extra 10k on top of your car at purchase.

Re:Not quite comparable

[bloodhawk]

Nissan Leaf = $5,500 for new battery Tesla's over 10k. others are in a similar price range. no auto maker is going to do that free of charge.

Re:Not quite comparable

[AmiMoJo]

Actually Nissan offer a whole-house UPS that uses the Leaf's battery. It's designed for emergencies when the power goes out and you want to run your essentials for a few days until it comes back on. In theory you could use it to just run your house for free though.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Anonymous Coward]

"and your new battery is two years old and only has half the effective capacity"

That's not how battery technology has progressed - especially for vehicles like the Model S. Given charge/discharge cycles (max fill %, max discharge percentage etc) you get dramatically less "loss".

I'd also guess that there is some testing going on on the swapped batteries so you wouldn't get a dud model. An agreement with Tesla should (in my mind) cover you getting a comparable battery in the swap. Defective pack that wasn't caught by that? would be like getting bad gasoline; it happens every now and again - but testing should cover most scenarios.

Re:Not quite comparable

[JeffOwl]

Attendants at gas stations are not there to prevent people from stealing gas, they are there for safety.

And here I thought it was a jobs program. Or are the people in NJ and OR really more prone to setting themselves on fire than they are everywhere else?

Re:Not quite comparable

[Ol Olsoc]

I'd to see it as more disruptive. Sure, the gas stations can spruce up their store, what if the local mall installs a couple hundred* chargers? What if you're trying to decide between TGIF and Ruby Tuesday, driving an EV, and know one has chargers and one doesn't?

Now yer talkin! These parking lots have lights installed already. So now you just look at the idea of charging during your meal, shopping, or while you work.

What is more, there is a working model - Alaska, where parking meters often have an outlet to plug your block/battery heaters to keep your vehicle ready to start.

In addition, to pay for your electricity use, there is also a working model All the new parking lots in my little city have smartphone apps to pay for your parking. So we can just add charging if needed.

I get a real charge out of gasoholics complaining about the energy delivery infrastructure for electric as compared to gasoline. As if long trains full of explosive fuel, that have already destroyed places, high pressure pipelines, and highly flammable tanker trucks are somehow better than wires.

The energy delivery system look and feel will shakedown over the next several years. But the elements are all there, nothing needs technological development.

Re:Not quite comparable

[thegarbz]

The cost of upgrading a circuit is not much, and it's even less in commercial settings where existing cabling is often run in conduit or is readily accessible. Anyone who's installed a 3-phase AC in their house would know that. It still is many MANY orders of magnitude cheaper than providing a supply of unleaded wherever the hell you please. It was $650 to upgrade my 8mm^2 single phase incomer to 16mm^2 three phase including $100 paid to the utility.

The only real problem is when you hit the utility scale. If every house suddenly drew an extra 30A your local utility may not have the supporting infrastructure to cope.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Ol Olsoc]

At a gas station it doesn't take you long to fill your tank.

But you have to make a special stop at a gas station. An electric charging station can be installed almost anywhere. My local Wal-Mart and Costco have them in the parking lot. So you can recharge while you shop. They are also available in many employee parking lots, close to the entrance. So you can recharge while you work. And, of course, you can put one in your garage and recharge while you sleep.

Gasaholics are completely stuck in their fill it up, run it to a quarter tank, then seek out a gas station to fill it paradigm. Your examples of WalMart (now that's a surprise) and other stores having chargers really works, and my vision of street parking meter charging stations - not unlike Alaskan block heater plugins help to flesh out the system.

For travellers, eateries with charging stations in their lots, and hotels will likewise add to the mix. Charging your car will be as easy as plugging in and using your smartphone app to pay. The infrastructure is relatively inexpensive and all there save for the last few feet. The environmental impact is contained, and much less. Coupled with increasing range for EV's, this thing is simply going to happen.

I'm pretty certain that in the not too distant future, getting old school gasoline at a station will come to resemble trying to get gasoline without ethanol, as in very difficult to impossible.

Re:Not quite comparable

[quantaman]

Assuming they can find a way to avoid people scamming them off widescale all they have to do is bake the price of the new battery into the car.

Car rental companies have built a business around lending people a very significant asset, I don't see why electric car manufacturers couldn't do the same with batteries.

Re:Not quite comparable

[runningduck]

Fair enough. As I say I was not sure what your point was. That could be on me, but even after rereading your post I am still not sure. Your follow-up provides some clarity.

I agree that the market will have to evolve. Currently most electric cars can only travel 70ish miles per charge. This limits ownership to people who can charge at home. Incidentally approximately 60% of adults in the U.S. live in a home where they could charge a car. I don't think that home charging is limiting the market. Range is likely the limiting factor.

I expect that as we see affordable pure electric cars with ranges of 150 ~ 200 miles that market will explode from the current 1% to 5%~10% all still comfortably within the home charging footprint of the market. Outside of the reduction of range anxioty the economics of electric cars becomes increasingly compelling with increased miles driven.

But to your point regarding the need to increase public charging on the scale of gas stations, I just do not see that happening or even important. I think that there are more incentives for appartment property owners to outfit premium electric car spot and charge a small fee than to have gas station like charging.

Re:Not quite comparable

[cduffy]

Pardon? States other than NJ or OR still require there to be a person on site who can hit the kill switch for the pumps. (I don't know if helping folks with disabilities pump their gas is legally mandatory, and if in so in which states, but this is likewise common even in "self-serve" stations).

"Attendant" is not synonymous with "full-service".

Re:Not quite comparable

[bloodhawk]

sure they can bake it into the price, however it isn't a "free" replacement battery then is it. EV cars would have to increase in cost between 10-20k each as well.

Re:Not quite comparable

[toddestan]

You're already paying the service station for the battery swap. They'll probably just tack a few on top of that.

Re: Not quite comparable

[Meski]

Not ubiquitous, but I can see a charge lasting me a week. The nuisance is I'm in an apartment with basement parking: if many people do this there's going to need to be some new wiring system there so we get charged (dollars, not electrons) appropriately. Otherwise I'd buy (lease) one tomorrow.

Re:Not quite comparable

[Meski]

Your landlord (or body corporate) will indeed give a shit for paying for 100 outlets, and making sure they get charged to appropriate apartments.

Re:Not quite comparable

[JeffOwl]

The difference is that in NJ and OR the customer is not allowed to directly use the pump, they have to wait for someone to come over and start pumping the gas for them. That is what I thought we were discussing here. In most other states they just have to be in sight of the pumps. BTW: I have used member only refueling stations that were completely unattended.

Re:Not quite comparable

[RandomAdam]

True; it isn't even close to 40000. I mean if you count regular power points that allow for a slow charge; well I have 4 in my garage and 30 or so in my house. I could only charge 3-4 cars at once since I only have an 80A capacity at home but that is nearly 20kW of capacity.

So if we count each house then the numbers are much much larger.

Sharing Economy?

[drinkypoo]

Hearing that many of these points are in homes makes me wonder if anyone is running a social media site/group just for people with EV chargers. You could make your charger open to people with chargers who would make them available to you... Presumably (heh heh) you could add something like this to your home for relatively little money by adding something that would provide an external charging lead with a keypad or iButton contact or NFC or whatever, with a socket inside into which you plugged your charging connector when you wanted to make it available. Plugging into the back of the unit would power it up, at which point it would connect to the network and announce availability. It would require relatively little penetration of an external wall, or routing through conduits to an appropriate mounting location.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Yes, on some other planet where electricity is free.
What you propose is no different than having a gasoline tank in your yard, and letting random people come by and fill up for free. When the tank is empty, you get to pay to fill it up again.

Re: Sharing Economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you missed the point about the keypad/NFC/etc.

By identifying people, you can charge them for usage.

It wasn't explicitly stated, but it is a trivial step.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says it would be for free?

Re:Sharing Economy?

[mspohr]

http://www.plugshare.com/ (Google is your friend)
http://www.chargepoint.com/
https://www.blinknetwork.com/

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Smidge204]

Well, the difference is that the cost-per mile electric driving is a fraction of the cost of gasoline.

A gallon of gasoline will get you ~40 miles in a good car. A gallon of gasoline is also ~36KWHr of energy. 36 KWHr of electric charge will get you over 108 miles in a mediocre electric vehicle.

A gallon of gasoline right now, in my area, is roughly $2.40. A kilowatt-hour of electricity, including all taxes and surcharges, is roughly $0.20. So fully charging an electric car will cost about $5 while fully refueling a normal car will cost about $25.

And as others pointed out; it needn't be for free. But at a maximum of $5 per visitor it needn't be cash either. Hell, bring a box of good cookies and I'll let you charge at my place for a few hours...

And if it's an emergency type situation, maybe a couple bucks to help someone get home isn't that bad a gesture in and of itself.
=Smidge=

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Free electricity is not viable now, but may be a way to change society. Greece announced that they are going to try to give it away free. As for counting charging station in people's garages, that's just plain silly and a way to make a fake headline.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[cascadingstylesheet]

Hearing that many of these points are in homes makes me wonder if anyone is running a social media site/group just for people with EV chargers. You could make your charger open to people with chargers who would make them available to you... Presumably (heh heh) you could add something like this to your home for relatively little money by adding something that would provide an external charging lead with a keypad or iButton contact or NFC or whatever, with a socket inside into which you plugged your charging connector when you wanted to make it available. Plugging into the back of the unit would power it up, at which point it would connect to the network and announce availability. It would require relatively little penetration of an external wall, or routing through conduits to an appropriate mounting location.

In seconds, regulators would show up to make things nice and safe for you ...

Re:Sharing Economy?

[mspohr]

Most EVs have batteries with a total storage capacity of about 20 to 40 kWh and a recharge rate of about 5 kW. Electricity costs 10 to 20 cents per kWh so a one hour charge costs $0.50 to $1.00. This is enough to get most people back on the road to their destination and it won't break the bank.
Teslas are different with a battery capacity of 85 kWh and a charge rate at a Supercharger of about 100 kW. Superchargers are "free" (you do have to buy the car) so you could theoretically drive anywhere without paying anything for "fuel".

Re:Sharing Economy?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Agreed. I get that. But what the OP seemed to be suggesting was turning your house into a refueling station. No mention of 'payment' for fuel, be it liquid or electrons. With a whole lot of handwaving about 'sharing economy', and 'open to people'.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[tsqr]

Greece is going to try to give away electricity for free to extremely poor people. People who aren't extremely poor will get to pay for it.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[JazzHarper]

For comparison, a typical gasoline-powered vehicle has a storage capacity of about 500 kWh and a recharge rate of 15,000 kW. The average driver consumes the gasoline equivalent of 57 kWh per day. Taking into account the fact that gasoline engines are about 25% as efficient as electric motors, each electric car needs about 14 kWh of charge per day, on average. While a gasoline dispenser can refuel as many as 100 cars/day, a charger can only supply 3 cars/day. So, you need at least 30 times as many charging stations as gasoline pumps to support the same number of cars.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Doppler00]

There are several companies (like charge point) that sell charging stations that have billing mechanisms built into them. They work with NFC for payment.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Smidge204]

Well "Shared economy" implies sharing, not selling or bartering. I know that some people are perfectly happy to form community ties around electric vehicles and share - at no cost - each other's power outlets. It's not the least bit farfetched an idea.
=Smidge=

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Bing Tsher E]

The lawyers are already waiting in their cars out on the street.

They called the Insurance Company.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[drinkypoo]

Yes, on some other planet where electricity is free.

Is that the planet where you come from? They don't read on that planet, do they?

What you propose is no different than having a gasoline tank in your yard, and letting random people come by and fill up for free.

It's different in that read my fucking comment, you ignoranus. Anyway, a sibling to your comment provides links to some services like what I'm talking about, and what you assert that nobody would ever do. You're so useless.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[MrChips]

Using your numbers, going 40 miles on $2.40 worth of gas is 16.67 miles per $, while going 108 miles on $7.20 worth of electricity is 15 miles per $. So the electric car is more expensive on a cost-per-mile basis.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Smidge204]

Yes, amazingly if you use numbers that are strongly in favor of gasoline vehicles, gasoline vehicles come out looking pretty good. Go figure.

To use harder real-world-average numbers, adjust the math for 29MPG, 3.5 miles/KWHr and $0.12/KWHr.
=Smidge=

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Firethorn]

So, you need at least 30 times as many charging stations as gasoline pumps to support the same number of cars.

Consider that a home charging station can be on the order of a dryer(30A) or oven(50A) outlet, which will probably cost a couple hundred to install. Meanwhile a commercial gasoline is probably going to set you back $10k per fueling point and require regular maintenance.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Firethorn]

Then they go home disappointed when they find out that you pulled a permit, had an electrician install it, and it was checked by a city inspector. The equipment itself is rated for the use involved.

Or for my house, only the last, and I know how to run electrical cable.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[AmiMoJo]

There is such a network in the UK already, called PlugShare. I don't think it is very popular though.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[AmiMoJo]

It's an emergency measure, but the long term goal is to re-nationalize electricity production. That would be a win for everyone as prices go down and the generators start acting in the public interest, e.g. by supporting privately owned renewables instead of trying to price them off the grid.

In any case, I'd rather pay for some very poor people to live in the 20th century than have them freezing, dark and desperate, practically forced into a life of crime. In fact I do pay for that in my country and I'm happy with it, because the benefit to me (better society, reduced crime/increased safety) is more than worth the tiny amount it costs.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. To add, you aren't getting 40mpg in a car that is either as expensive as the tesla model S or as large. 40mpg is reserved for civic/corolla size vehicles; even most hybrids that get that mileage or better are teenytiny.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Karmashock]

Very few people have a problem with paying to help people out. The problem is the secondary and tertiary consequences.

Lets say my drug addict cousin needs money because he's homeless and hungry... I should give him money right? I mean, he's homeless and hungry.

Problem with that is that he'll spend the money on drugs instead of food or housing. Which means rather then pay for him to live like a human being I am subsidizing his addiction.

An enormous portion of the homeless population in the US is addicted to something or literally insane.

Does that mean I'm advocating giving them nothing? No... I'm advocating for the random homeless person the same thing I would offer my own blood in the same situation... Reform and I'll help you. Refuse to reform and you get nothing. That is a reasonable response to addicts.

To the insane, if you are so crazy that you can't even work a minimum wage job to afford the cheapest of appartments... if you are so crazy that you can't live in a half way house where portions of your expenses are subsidized under controlled conditions... if you are so crazy that all you can do is wander around the streets begging for what you need and likely being addicted to something... then I would offer them asylum. Literally you can live in a controlled community isolated from the rest of society where people will be paid to take care of you and see to your needs. In return, you forfeit your freedoms beyond the asylum and must live within those confines. Do not throw "one flew over the cuckoo's nest" at me. Obviously that is unacceptable. I am suggesting asylum not sadistic abuse.

I could lay what I feel is an appropriate response beyond that. But the point is that these systems should be structured in such a way that they strengthen society and do not beggar it. We have an absurd number of Americans on "disability" these days. The vast majority of these people can work just fine. They simply find it easier to cash the checks then work. I don't blame them. It is a rational choice. You can either get paid a lot of money to do nothing or work really hard to possibly get less. Why would I do anything but collect the checks. And that would be fine only the money comes from some place and there is only so much of it.

Add to that, immigration policies which encourage the world's poor to flock to wealthy socialist societies all over the world, get fast tracked into citizenship, and then immediately collect welfare. It is common in the EU, Canada, and the US. Less common in Australia and New Zealand currently because they've been pretty rational on the subject. But who knows how long that will last.

Now... tell me I'm evil. That judgement wounds me so.

Re:Sharing Economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

www.plugshare.com

What's the real public number?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think its a bit strange to count private charging stations? I mean, who else can use a station built into a private garage? My other issue with EV's is the time it takes to charge a unit to full. Eventually if your going to see more stations, you will end up having to accept the traditional investment from the private sector. With that comes with it a desire to profit from installing those charging stations and even profiting from the service. Which leads me to ask, will this eventually cause the value of EV's to diminish when you start adding in the public charging costs? While I agree, we will eventually have alternatives to fossil fuels. I doubt highly EV's will be the alternative that will win over fossils. Unless we can create a battery that lasts a lot longer and give a person a days travel in range. I think its a hard sell to many. Tesla is a brilliantly designed EV but it still lacks popular appeal and with that means it will always be a niche vehicle design. As much as Elon Musk wants it to be more. The future looks only marginally successful.

Re:What's the real public number?

[sribe]

I mean, who else can use a station built into a private garage?

Yeah, but who can re-fill their gas tank in their garage at night without going out?

So the comparison is tricky...

Re:What's the real public number?

[PrimaryConsult]

CNG cars can be refueled in private garages without going out... though I'm pretty sure the apparatus for that is far more expensive than a standard wall socket.

Re:What's the real public number?

[sribe]

CNG cars can be refueled in private garages without going out... though I'm pretty sure the apparatus for that is far more expensive than a standard wall socket.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what the cost would be of installing a charger with enough wattage to "refill" at a comparable rate? Interesting thought experiment...

Re:What's the real public number?

[Firethorn]

enough wattage to "refill" at a comparable rate?

Are you talking about having the equivalent of a Tesla Supercharger in the garage? Being able to fill up from 'empty' to 'full' in ~5-10 minutes?

1. You can't actually reach 5-10 minutes, the Lithium-Ion chemistry won't let you. You can get to 80% very quickly though.
2. The expensive part wouldn't be installing the supercharger, it'd be upgrading your home's service.

Current standard for a 'home' is 100-200 Amps@240V. That means they max out at 48kW. A supercharger is 120kW/160kw. You'd need an 800 Amp service to feed one of these and have enough left over to run the rest of your house.

Now, no prices are available, but from what I've seen, a cut down supercharger station should be available for a few grand.

If you're living in a mansion, you might have this, but even then you'll probably need your service upgraded.

Re:What's the real public number?

[sribe]

You'd need an 800 Amp service to feed one of these and have enough left over to run the rest of your house.

You're right about the watts, but no so much about the amps. 800 amps would require ridiculously thick/stiff/heavy/expensive cable--completely impractical. What you'd actually need would be 2.5KV (or 25KV) service direct to the charger. And again, just curious, but I wonder what the cost would be...

Re:What's the real public number?

[Firethorn]

You're right about the watts, but no so much about the amps. 800 amps would require ridiculously thick/stiff/heavy/expensive cable--completely impractical. What you'd actually need would be 2.5KV (or 25KV) service direct to the charger. And again, just curious, but I wonder what the cost would be...

You're 'mostly' right'. You can have an 800 amp 240V service, I even found a box for it here. It's 'only' 4 modern home's worth.

You'd end up running 3 sets of cable, from doing some internet searching. IE rather than the usual 2 wires, you'd be running SIX.

The trouble with running 2.5kV is that it'd 'probably' be even more expensive as the power company would have to run you a line from the 'nearest' 2.5kV transformer, plus, do they really want to be running that voltage through a residential zone? It'd have to be insulated.

As such, the cost would be so wildly variable that I can't even start to come up with a guess. You're probably looking at a hundred to two hundred a foot for the service run. Is that 100 feet or a mile?

Re:What's the real public number?

[sribe]

The trouble with running 2.5kV is that it'd 'probably' be even more expensive as the power company would have to run you a line from the 'nearest' 2.5kV transformer, plus, do they really want to be running that voltage through a residential zone? It'd have to be insulated.

And run through sturdy conduit once it reached the house, preferably for the shortest most direct run possible. And you'd need some engineering work on the connectors, to avoid any potential for arcing across an air gap to anything the owner waved it near, metal stuff, fingers, etc. And even then, you'd probably want some super-sized GFCI-style cutoff for last-resort protection, and I don't have a clue how much that would cost.

You're probably looking at a hundred to two hundred a foot for the service run. Is that 100 feet or a mile?

I'd think it would have to be pretty close. They don't want to run 120/240 very far because of the resistive losses. But still, it would be expensive.

You're 'mostly' right'. You can have an 800 amp 240V service, I even found a box for it here [platt.com]. It's 'only' 4 modern home's worth.

Thing is, even the wire to carry 200A costs $4-$5 per foot, times 3 cables--just for wire. (And it's only that cheap because they use aluminum for it. Good god copper would probably cost $100 per foot just for the wire...)

But I wasn't thinking so much of the wire to the house. I was thinking of the wire between charger and car. 800A worth of wire would be enormously thick stiff and heavy, far too much so for the owner to pick it up and connect it to the car. But I suppose the charging station could have a transformer to kick the voltage way back up in order to get the power delivered through a cable that one person could actually pick up and connect. Of course now you're going through two (potentially [haha]) unnecessary transformers on the way to the car...

Re:What's the real public number?

[Firethorn]

But I suppose the charging station could have a transformer to kick the voltage way back up in order to get the power delivered through a cable that one person could actually pick up and connect.

Technology varies, but yeah, generally it's high voltage AC or DC that goes to the car.

That being said, because kV range voltage is 'interesting' whether AC or DC, there's some serious communication going on between the charger and the car before any real voltage starts transiting the charging cable.

Indeed, all this amounts to is a number of estimates on how much it'd cost to get ~ 160kW into a house, which would ultimately be decided by serious engineering work if/when it occurred. That's where they'd decide on the basis of all variables on what voltage at what amps to bring in, cabling, conduit vs buried cable, etc...

Personally, I think 800A@240 V is more likely, but other options include 3 phase, 600V, etc...

But if the transformer is close enough, sure, run a line from there.

Electric cars work great in an urban landscape.

[fustakrakich]

Europe is crowded enough also to make it work. In the US, you might want to have your generator under the hood.

Re:Electric cars work great in an urban landscape.

[radish]

I frequently hear this comment about how desolate the US is compared to Europe (whether it's discussing broadband, cell service, electric vehicles, etc). I've lived in both significantly - and the difference really isn't that great. Yes there are great areas with few people in the middle of the US - but get anywhere near a coast or major city and it's plenty populated. And guess what? That's where most people live and therefore where most people drive. No one is proposing electric vehicles as the only choice (yet), but for a majority of the population they are or soon will be a viable choice - vehicle cost aside.

Robots need charging stations

[voss]

How do you think all the battle robot bunnies , and ecchi robot girls keep powered up

Interestingly...

[hcs_$reboot]

...there are much less active nuclear power plants.

Japan.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets see... no oil or gas production, unpopular and shrinking nuclear production, high population density with excellent public transport infrastructure and the best cellular network on the planet, hardly a role-model for future car culture, is it?

Re:Japan.

[SvnLyrBrto]

There's no magic to it. We could have density and good public transit here too if we were to decide that a McMansion out in the sprawl is no longer a status symbol.

Re:Japan.

[Bing Tsher E]

Most rural housing is, if anything, less ostentatious than urban housing.

People don't want to live crowded together in high rise housing.

Well, if they do, let them. Don't force them.

Re:Japan.

[SuricouRaven]

That, and a significent part of the US considers public transit to be one step away from communism.

It's all about balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Japan is doing this to off-set the amount of nuclear waste they're dumping into the Pacific Ocean.

Really?

[DeathSquid]

And yet I live in Tokyo and I have never seen a charging point there. Can anyone tell me where there is a public point?

Re:Really?

[alantus]

And yet I live in Tokyo and I have never seen a charging point there. Can anyone tell me where there is a public point?

Every Nissan dealer has at least one charging station.
You leave the car there while you go inside and enjoy free drinks, snacks, games for your kids, etc.
Of course, that is as long as you are a Nissan owner.

Re:Really?

[mspohr]

http://www.plugshare.com/
Type Tokyo into the search bar. There are about a bazillion chargers.

Re:Really?

[WindBourne]

http://openchargemap.org/site/
Simply type it in. You have over 453 in your city.

Re:Really?

[ColdWetDog]

This is by design. They don't want to put them there in case Godzilla returns.

Re:Really?

[DeathSquid]

Exactly one charging point in Shinjuku, my city. The most populated city in Japan. You must be joking. Where did you get the number 453 from? What a waste of time.

Re:Really?

[WindBourne]

you said tokyo. That has 453. Now, you limit it to 1 little bitty ward, and think scream that it only has 1 in it.
What a waste indeed.

Re:Really?

[Firethorn]

And yet I live in Tokyo and I have never seen a charging point there.

First you say Tokyo, then you say Shinjuku. Make up your mind!

When I plug it into the application I get 452, I had to zoom in to be able to see Shinjuku, there were so many charging stations! Of course, it also implies that Shinjuku isn't really a city, more a section of Tokyo. But even restricting a circle to about 12 km, I get about a dozen stations, 4 of them Teslas.

Re:Really?

[DeathSquid]

You know nothing about Japan. Each ku is a distinct city with it's own city government.
You know nothing about Tokyo. Shinjuku-ku is not little bitty, it is the most populated city in Japan.
You know nothing. You must be Jon Snow.

Re:Really?

[DeathSquid]

The government of Shinjuku-ku will be surprised to discover they are not a city. Please feel free to let them know. I will look forward to my tax refund.

As for the number of charging stations, did you notice that the majority of them were not in Tokyo at all but different prefectures (states)? That's like saying that charging stations in Arizona and Nevada are in San Francisco. Of course you had to scroll down to see Tokyo. That's like saying you have to scroll down from a map of the western US to see Los Angeles.

It's hard to tell, but by eyeball estimation from the map there might be 30 stations in Tokyo 23 wards. Most of which seem to be in dealers or car parks. The latter are generally useful, but average less than 1 in a city. Hardly the immense market penetration implied by the headline. In fact there are clearly more gas stations than charging points.

Re:Really?

[Firethorn]

The government of Shinjuku-ku will be surprised to discover they are not a city. Please feel free to let them know. I will look forward to my tax refund.

I didn't say that they aren't. As an American, I'm well aware of how cities can grow and envelope others, while retaining at least their technical authority. But peering in from the outside, just like I do with Denver, Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis, and various other cities, your city gets stuck into 'Tokyo' from an outsider's perspective.

To continue, it may be something of a translation issue. You're assigning '-ku' as 'city', where I might translate it as 'county, ward, precinct, or district'.

The fact remains that with about 11 km of driving you can reach many charging points. Whether those are technically within the bounds of Shinjuku is ultimately fairly useless. That leads to a question. For such a densely populated city occupying what's apparently a postage stamp's worth of land, how many gas stations are there?

Matter of fact, clicking on links around, I see at least 12 stations that identify themselves as Shinjuku.

Re:Really?

[Firethorn]

Indeed, you want to see an area relatively devoid of charging stations?

Plug where I live in there - Fairbanks, AK. We have a total of ONE station. At the Nissan dealership.

As an oddity, we effectively have cripple charge capabilities all over the place, but that's because we live far enough north that gasoline vehicles need to be plugged in. Might only be 1500 watts, but it's still something.

Re:Really?

[DeathSquid]

We genuinely must be looking at different maps. I can see only one station in all of Shinjuku, the one on Yamanote-dori. That's it.

You might need to recalibrate distances in Tokyo. It might take 30 to 45 minutes to drive 11km in central Tokyo.

You might need to recalibrate your cultural expectations. The ku boundaries in Tokyo are very meaningful to residents, and the distinct cities are much more than technical boundaries. Cities in Japan don't work the same way as cities in the U.S.

Off the top of my head, there are around 6 gas stations within a 10-15 minute walk (or 5 minute drive) of where I live. This is typical. That's why I called bullshit on the headline. There are simply not more charging points than gas stations in any practical sense.

Norway

[rarruda]

Norway has 1602 gas stations ( http://www.np.no/om_bensinstas... ) and 1617 charging stations with 6221 charting points ( http://www.ladestasjoner.no/ ) of which 5384 charting points are public and most are free as in beer.

While driving to most places in the country is possible with a Tesla due to its large battery pack, with most other electric cars it would still be a significant hassle to drive significant distances (over 3 hours non-stop drive) due to their limited range/battery packs.

So I guess the question even with infrastructure in place, and with enough incentives in place, is when will most manufacturers realize that range is critical into turning electric cars from a commuters vehicle into a family, general, all purpose car? (Other then Tesla, I don't really see other manufacturers really "getting it").

Re:Norway

[Duhfus]

> Other then Tesla, I don't really see other manufacturers really "getting it" I might be wrong, but I don't think it is the manufacturers' not "getting it", but that the cost to bring a longer range vehicle makes such a vehicle much less desirable currently. Having said that I hope the cost comes down soon enough that guys like me can actually afford a car like Tesla S.

Re:Norway

[swillden]

when will most manufacturers realize that range is critical into turning electric cars from a commuters vehicle into a family, general, all purpose car?

All of the manufacturers understand perfectly well exactly how important range is to making an EV a general-purpose vehicle. What no one knows, yet, is how to make an EV with 300-mile range that doesn't cost upwards of $80K. Tesla doesn't have any special knowledge in this regard, but the market for vehicles in that price range is obviously small.

I should point out, though, that my Nissan LEAF is our primary family car. It's not a general-purpose car -- we have a large SUV that does all of the things the LEAF can't do, like haul 7 people, tow heavy loads, go offroad and cover long distances -- but the LEAF is our family car. We drive it far more than the other, in both number of trips and number of miles, and when I say "Okay kids, get in the car!" they pile into the LEAF.

Re:Norway

[WindBourne]

That is why we need to change the subsidy on 'EV's.
First off, hybrids are NOT EVs. They do not deserve a subsidy since they are going to cost America more money in our electricity.
Secondly, we should offer up a subsidy of say $5K for cars with less than 100 MPC (epa rated), $10K for cars less than 150 MPC, and 15K for all cars greater than/equal 150 MPC.
With such a structure, it will get car makers to do the right things.

Re:Norway

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why we need to change the subsidy on 'EV's.

First off, hybrids are NOT EVs. They do not deserve a subsidy since they are going to cost America more money in our electricity.

Secondly, we should offer up a subsidy of say $5K for cars with less than 100 MPC (epa rated), $10K for cars less than 150 MPC, and 15K for all cars greater than/equal 150 MPC.

With such a structure, it will get car makers to do the right things.

Isn't America where the market decides? Why would there be a subsidy at all? If an EV better meets people's needs, then people will choose it. If it doesn't, they won't. A subsidy is really just a transfer from the taxpayer to the manufacturer. A free market doesn't require subsidies.

Re:Norway

[AmiMoJo]

Nissan are releasing a 250 mile range Leaf late next year. I'll probably be one of the first customers as my finance on my current Leaf comes to an end then.

Re:Norway

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla knows how to make an EV with 300-mile range that doesn't cost upwards of $80K: a giga (battery) factory.

Re:Norway

[Bing Tsher E]

Maybe YOU should offer up a subsidy like that. How big is your bank account?

Re:Norway

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't America where the market decides?

No.

Why would there be a subsidy at all? If an EV better meets people's needs, then people will choose it. If it doesn't, they won't. A subsidy is really just a transfer from the taxpayer to the manufacturer. A free market doesn't require subsidies.

Ok, now let's see you charge the true price of using Internal Combustion Engines. That includes the harm from pollution, the cost of funding military operations, and propping up third-world dictatorships.

Then we'll compare the prices.

Re:Norway

[swillden]

Tesla knows how to make an EV with 300-mile range that doesn't cost upwards of $80K: a giga (battery) factory.

Well, they think they do. The haven't proven it yet :-)

Re:Norway

[Kjella]

It really doesn't make sense to compare Norway to anything else because our car taxes heavily penalize muscle cars while EV cars are tax free, creating a unique environment where the Tesla is cheap-ish. For example in the US the cheapest Ford Mustang has a MSRP of $23,800 and the Tesla P85D is $98170 after the $7500 tax credit. In Norway the same Ford Mustang costs 739000 NOK = $97336 and the Tesla P85D 768200 NOK = $101182 at current exchange rates and due to additional incentives it's actually cheaper. And the biggest engine Mustang, a $41800 car in the US costs 1279000 NOK = $168461 before extras.

Everywhere but here the Telsa is a rich man's toy. Here a lot of the middle class who'd like a muscle car but has been put off by our insane car taxes settling for a normal family car in the $50-60k range have figured this is their one chance to own a sporty car on a normal budget and gone for a Tesla. I've even considered it myself because I know this is a political loophole - basically a very broad agreement long term agreement to push EV vehicles at a time when there was nearly none, running to 2017 that nobody wants to take the political fallout of backing out of even though it's been vastly more successful than anybody had anticipated.

Re:Norway

[WindBourne]

how funny.
By offering up a subsidy on EVs that will charge at nighttime, it would help drop America demand for oil which would lower YOUR price for your ICE car.
In addition, by that EV charging at nighttime, it would either lower the price of electricity or keep it from increasing. The reason is that the utility would get to sell more of their electricity, but at a time that they normally do not have customers.
So, the subsidies to get GOOD EVs being built will come back in aces for all of us.
And yet, ppl like you would rather continue to subsidize oil/nat gas/etc. to the billions / year that we currently do.

Re:Norway

[burbilog]

First off, hybrids are NOT EVs. They do not deserve a subsidy since they are going to cost America more money in our electricity.

Electricity is 4-5 times cheaper than gasoline. That's not a problem. The problem with pure EVs is range anxiety and nothing is going to change for a long time (unless somebody invents insanely better batteries).

But there is no need for such batteries -- you can use today PHEV (*PLUG-IN* hybrid) to charge at night and commute on battery, launching gasoline engine only if you need more range than usual (most people need that a few times per year). It looks like manufacturers will figure it out soon and offer PHEVs with cheap and small "range extender" gasoline engines, good only for 30k miles or so. And due to cheap "extender" engine they'll finally match the price of regular cars...

Points vs. stations

[fridaynightsmoke]

I'm assuming a 'charging point' charges one car. A gas station has between 4 and 20 pumps. If it takes 3 minutes to fill a car's tank, that means a gas station can serve between 80 and 400 cars per hour. A charging point can serve between 0.1 and 2 (for a Tesla Supercharger) cars per hour.

Apples and oranges.

Re:Points vs. stations

[Chas]

Also, Japan is roughly the size of Montana. And fairly densely populated. Are 70-80 mile commutes to work really that common?

Re:Points vs. stations

[mspohr]

You are right. It's difficult to compare gas stations and EV charge points since they are used differently.
In your ICE (Internal combustion engine) car, when you run low on gas you drive to the gas station and fill up. You might do this once or twice a week and you need to count the time it takes to get to the gas station and back to your route as well as the short time to fill up.
In an EV, you usually just plug the car in at home at night and it's "full" in the morning. Takes about 10 seconds to plug in. Alternatively, you may have a charge point at work and plug in during the day. It's rare for an EV driver to need to fill up while driving around during the day. The total time that most people spend recharging is just the few seconds it takes to plug in the car.
The one exception is long distance travel. Most EVs have a range of less than 100 miles which meet the needs of most "daily drivers" but they are not designed for cross country travel. The Tesla with a range of 200-300 miles can work for long distance cross country travel because of the Supercharger network. These are spaced every 100-200 miles along major travel routes and take about 20-30 minutes to recharge so you can easily travel cross country. But again, cross country travel is unusual, most people just drive around near home or commute to work and plug in at night so they never have to worry about stopping to charge during the day.

Re:Points vs. stations

[Anonymous Coward]

Are 70-80 mile commutes to work really that common?

Do you want a 70-80 mile commute?

Re:Points vs. stations

[Anonymous Coward]

> Japan ... Are 70-80 mile commutes to work really that common?

Suprisingly, 120, even 150 mile communtes are not rare in Japan! Those people use something called the shinkansen, usually translated as "bullet train" in english. Costs an arm and a leg to ride, but employers tend to pay for it, because of corporate tax-deducibility.

Re:Points vs. stations

[OldSport]

*Very* few people commute on the shinkansen in Japan, and the distances you're talking about would run around $200 USD per day. I can't think of a single person I knew during my 10 years living in the country who commuted on the shinkansen. If such a commute became necessary a company would just foot the bill for a small apartment and relocate the employee.

Commuting by car is what is actually rare in Japan. In such an urbanized country, with such a robust public transport system, nearly everyone takes the train, or the subway, or the bus. Only in the boondocks do you find the majority of people commuting by car.

Two hour commutes on NORMAL trains, however, are not rare.

Re:Points vs. stations

[AmiMoJo]

Actually many chargers can do two cars at once. They often have two outlets, a 3.3kW domestic socket and a 7kW EV charging socket. Not all cars can make use of the 7kW side.

OT, but I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

The first thing I thought of when I read the title of this article was not about electric cars, but rather how I haven't heard anything about self-driving cars out of Japan.

I would have thought with the Japanese love of robots and gadgets that they would be in the forefront of research into self-driven car technology.

Maybe they are and I just haven't heard about it.

Queue Whining

[Anonymous Coward]

"Gasoline was good enough for my grandpa and it's good enough for me. These new-fangled electric cars will never have the raw power of a real car. And they'll never be able to drive more than 100. Hey, you kids get off my lawn! Real inventions come from the army, not some kid's garage. Harrumph."

In the old days ...

[jamesl]

Open Charge Map, for example, operates an online listing of public charging points worldwide. A mobile app combines the data with GPS technology to guide drivers to the nearest site.

Decades ago, Mercedes included with every diesel powered car a book that listed every diesel fuel station in the US.

Re:In the old days ...

[WindBourne]

and in Tesla, they all show the closest Chargers.

Umm, SMALLER!

[holophrastic]

So, let's understand this. In smaller countries, where no one drives very far at all, and electricity is everywhere, gas is going electric. No shit. Gas requires transport, electricity does not.

Oh wait, electricity requires continuous unbroken well maintained infrastructure. So given a 2'000 mile broken road, electricity doesn't exist.

But there's something much more fundamental going on here. This isn't a question of gas or electric. This is a question of portable fuel or infrastructure energy.

I don't really care if it's gas or hydrogen or some other fuel, I'm always a big fan of the independence of carrying my own fuel. But I'm a little biased, since all mammals carry their own fuel. Maybe you'll get a different answer from your plant friends.

Re:Umm, SMALLER!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't really care if it's gas or hydrogen or some other fuel, I'm always a big fan of the independence of carrying my own fuel. But I'm a little biased, since all mammals carry their own fuel. Maybe you'll get a different answer from your plant friends.

All mammals carry all of their food? You've got an interesting definition of "mammal".

And if you're talking of internal fat storage, well, plants do that too (using sugars instead of fat, but functionally the same thing.)

dense

[cascadingstylesheet]

particularly in smaller, more population dense technologically advanced countries like Japan

Fixed that for you.

Re: Electric cars work great in an urban landscape

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really true. Even in the US, relatively few people are outside the urban bands, taking average population density on its own is misleading. A really accurate analysis would probably show that the vast majority of automobile usage is never further away from the electrical grid than a short walk.

Especially since many interstates are used as electrical right of ways.

Even if you couldn't get 100% of the ICE usage eliminated, or even a majority, taking a major chunk out of it would be easily feasible. And it would be in the areas where the pollution has the highest exposure levels.

40000 isn't nearly enough

[l3v1]

It's not the sheer number of hypothetically available charging points that matters. It's the accessibility (how many are pubically accessible on the street), the real number (number of publically available points per let's say every 100 miles), and the real availability (on average, how many of those points are available at any given time, taking into consideration that on car can block a charging point for 4-6-8 hours easily thus significantly reducing availability statistics).

Anyway, unless we're talking about a small electric car, used solely inside a city, and charged every night at home, I'm still not interested. Until the day we can drive 1000 miles with max 2 stops, max 15 minutes each, I won't ever be interested.

Re:40000 isn't nearly enough

[Doppler00]

Who would want to drive 1,000 miles (13 hours???) and only stop for 30 minutes total? You could actually do that with a plug in hybrid if you want and only have to stop once for gas, but that's still kind of crazy.

Re: 40000 isn't nearly enough

[gl4ss]

Come to Finland ... Happens more often than you would think. The trick is that if you have many stops the trip takes 20 hours instead of 13

Battery Stations

[danocorno]

Develop "battery stations". Or, make it an added service at existing gasoline-stations. People drive their electric cars into the station, and an attendant replaces in a few minutes the depleted battery with a fully charged battery which someone else exchanged more than a few hours earlier. If labour cost is 60$ per hour, and it took the person 5 minutes to swap the battery, then you have a full "tank" of fuel for 5$.

Re:Battery Stations

[oic0]

Would work well for fleet vehicles. Over the road trucks especially would benefit two fold. A quick charge is like a falcon punch to the battery, getting longer service life from their batteries would be a huge plus, then of course there is the extended range.

Re: Electric cars work great in an urban landscape

[bmajik]

It was not so long ago that rural residents exceeded urban residents in the US. While the balance has flipped, it has not dramatically done so.

I live in a rural area and when I go into the office it is a 20 mile one-way trip (that takes only 20 minutes, door to door). If I run any errands while I am in town I need to plan for at least 50 miles of drive on a charge. Given that it gets bitterly cold here (-30F is not uncommon), I wouldn't feel comfortable running a battery pack that didn't have a significant buffer above that range. Also, given that the posted speed limit is 75, and the roads are often empty, my actual road speed can be much higher than the 55-60mph that range testing is conducting at. Also, wind speeds here are often 30mph or more, so the car may be moving through the air at a 100mph or more speed equivalent. Drag increases exponentially with air speed.

When driving in winter, rear defrost, seat heaters, and front defrost will all be running at maximum.

The bottom line is that I don't think I could reliably do my daily commute on something approximately rated for my actual expected round trip mileage. The Leaf is rated at 70 miles at 55mph with intermittent AC usage. That's not enough margin for me to feel comfortable.

I have driven a Tesla 85 and it is simply magnificent. I'd be willing to experiment with the Tesla 60kw and I think it would reliably meet my normal needs, but any lesser EV I have no interest in.

What a terrible comparison.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they want to do an apples to apples comparison, they better stard counting all the 5 gallon gas cans in people homes, too.

And not quite accurate

[WindBourne]

First off, most ppl will charge at home. And it will be done in the middle of the night when electricity is dirt cheap.
Secondly, with the level 3 chargers, most electric (not hybrids) cars can charge to 80% in 30 minutes.
Third, for cars like Tesla, they charge for free.

Re:And not quite accurate

[CrimsonAvenger]

most electric (not hybrids) cars can charge to 80% in 30 minutes.

At the cost of a 10% reduction in effective battery life.

Re:And not quite accurate

[WindBourne]

Nope. Not in Tesla. It handles the heat properly. In fact, it is the ONLY car that does that.

Re:And not quite accurate

[angel'o'sphere]

Electricity is only cheap at night if you have a smart meter or a second meter for 'power at night'.
Ordinary house hold meters don't distibguishe between night and day time. You always pay the day price.

Re:And not quite accurate

[WindBourne]

If you own an electric car and do not go with the smart meter, then you are really not that bright.
The fact is, that only a few utilities do not offer cheaper prices for running nighttime electricity.
Nearly all of them WANT you to drive electric cars that you charge at nighttime.

Re:And not quite accurate

[tompaulco]

If everybody charges their electric vehicle at night, then electricity will no longer be cheap at night.

Re:And not quite accurate

[Firethorn]

There exist systems where you can install a cut-off device that turns power off during peak demand periods (popular for pool pumps and water heaters) where you can get a discount, the amount of which varies by utility company. I know because my grandparents had one.

Some of these come with a sub-meter, some don't

Re:And not quite accurate

[WindBourne]

Yes, it would increase a bit. Not much. The reason is that nearly all utilities would remain on baseload powers, rather than on-demand systems (which are expensive). BUT, the price of electricity would either remain the same (i.e. no inflation) or even go down, because the costs of the grid and baseload is better utilized around the clock.

Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[WindBourne]

Rather than targeting walgreens, where ppl go in for 10-20 minutes (and they only have level 2), these should be located at malls, zoos, museums, garages, and most of all, restaurants. In these places, most ppl will stay for at least an hour. Level 2s make great sense for the majority of that. Restaurants along highways would ideally put in level 3s so as to charge for going cross country.
Sadly, American subsidies on AE are being done poorly.

Re:Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[ShanghaiBill]

these should be located at malls, zoos, museums, garages, and most of all, restaurants.

Where I live, the mall, zoo, museums, and commercial parking garages already have them. I have not seen them yet at a restaurant.

Disclaimer: I live in San Jose, California, in the heart of Silicon Valley, so I understand that my case is atypical. But things that happen here, often happen 5 years later in the real world.

Re:Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[WindBourne]

actually, all of the tesla ones are located right by restaurants. Not necessarily, in their lot, but .....

Personally, I think that Tesla should cut a deal with some of the large truck stop chains. Most of them have 24x7 restaurants and are ideal for putting in Chargers.

Re:Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[Bing Tsher E]

You think people who can afford to get the $10,000 subsidy for a Tesla are going to be willing to spend an hour eating at a truck stop?

Re:Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[WindBourne]

yes. I do.
And to be fair, the 7.5K subsidy for tesla is a small %, compared to those that get 7.5K for a 28K nissan leaf or 7.5 K for a 35K prius or 35K highlander hybrid.

Re:Oddly, we put these in the wrong places

[Mirvnillith]

I believe there are underlying deals where the establishment helps fund the Tesla chargers in return for the assumed increased customer flow. At least, that's what I've heard about the Swedish stations.

Apartment Hell

[JimSadler]

Rental apartments and condos will have fits over charging stations. Usually space is at a premium and installing charging points for every vehicle is super expensive. But on top of that you can bet that residents will try to get a sort of Uber type of renting out their charging space and it will start when a guest needs a charge and the arguments begin over why can't i use my charger space for my guests. Condos will also resist new things like crazy and that is particularly true when some owners will not see an immediate benefit for an expense. For example a senior will not want any part of solar cells on a roof top in a condo as the pay back takes longer than they will live or transfer to assisted living or a nursing home. Condos are still having internal wars over things like pickup trucks and motorcycles and scooters. Those fights have been going on for 60 years. Imagine things like solar cells, charging stations or windmills becoming real issues for those apartment communities. But as far as rental communities go a developer could get smart and design the community with built in chargers and an electric car included in the sale of the unit. The sales gimmick could be that since you'll save on gas you really can afford to rent this lovely apartment.

Re:Apartment Hell

[Anonymous Coward]

People that rent tend to move around more often. Makes sense you have no investment beyond the lease. A myriad of problems may cause them to want, or have to to leave, from a loud neighbor moving in next door, to a change in jobs, or perhaps a death in the immediate family)

These people will stick to the gas car because it gives them the option of moving to a new place that doesn't have a charging station. Most likely they will have a gas car to begin with and the thought of having to make sure they have a carport on the next place they go will keep them away from the more expensive option as well as those that rent tend to be poorer.

( that 5-10 grand extra for an Ev is a good sized chunk on a down payment for a house, which is a well know investment and part of the American dream)

I do see it possible for brand new complexes, designed with this in mind. as putting it in during construction is a fraction of the cost putting it in after the fact where you have to deal with pavement, set car spaces, existing utilities, the residents needing to use the parking...

Weird numbers...

[davesque]

Those numbers seem totally bogus. It seems like there would be 30,000 gas stations in Tokyo and surrounding areas alone.

Re:Weird numbers...

[iggymanz]

Japan has about 70,000 gas stations, the USA has 121,000

But Gas Pumps?

[Bing Tsher E]

Let's not be apples-oranges.

Are there more charging points than gas pumps? And how long does a vehicle have to stay docked at said charging point, compared to time at a gas pump?

It's silly for electric vehicle advocates to put out disinformation. Don't they claim that's what the other side does?

Big in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

> in smaller, more technologically advanced countries like Japan

Japan is about 3000 km long north-to-south and has ~135 million people. That more than 2x as large as Britain. (Wish my country was that small...)

Heaven forbid people be responisble!

[bussdriver]

You have no duty or responsibility for your fellow man, only you matter and the rest of the world can go to hell.

Even further, you are not your brother's keeper even if Jesus said so!

Second hand smoke bother you? well fuck off and die! I'm not giving up my cigarettes you communist!

Humans did ok for most their existence without cars... but now you have one we can't possibly ADAPT to new circumstances... because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

Makes me wonder if WW2 could be won today with so many selfish wimps unwilling to make any sacrifice for the greater good... or even thinking the greater good means anything other than what directly benefits themselves...

Re:Heaven forbid people be responisble!

[Bing Tsher E]

Makes me wonder if WW2 could be won today with so many selfish wimps unwilling to make any sacrifice for the greater good...

Probably not, if the average Soviet Foot Soldier knew what a shitty deal he was in for.

In the old days ...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Decades ago, Mercedes included with every diesel powered car a book that listed every diesel fuel station in the US.

This statement doesn't make much sense. Ever since the end of WW2, that showed the merits of T-34 vs. Tiger and Sherman, the battle tanks and 6x6 trucks run on diesel everywhere. (More torque and won't flash fry hit.) Where did the construction industry trucks and 18-wheelers fill up in the USA?

Maybe you meant to say: "Decades ago, Mercedes included with every diesel powered car a book that listed every de-suplhurized diesel fuel selling station in the US."

(That's because private car sized engines have poor tolerance to the sulphur-rich, almost bunker-fuel like diesel oil still used by ships, locomotives and trucks in the USA.That one emits the nastiest pollution, as sulphur kills trees like a battalion of mad trolls.)

It's not just the "technologically advanced" bit

[93 Escort Wagon]

When there's a gas station every other mile and you have to struggle to find a charging station, it's difficult to make a case for convenience and reliability. But this is changing, particularly in smaller, more technologically advanced countries like Japan.

Japan doesn't have significant oil reserves from which it can produce its own gasoline. Whether it learned that lesson from World War II, or whether it sees the continuing political instability in the Middle East as a motivator - Japan is probably doing this because it's politically expedient rather than because it's cool tech.

Re: Electric cars work great in an urban landscape

[Doppler00]

Have you looked into any of the plug in hybrids like the Volt? The new model will get 50 miles of EV range. For winter driving, the gas engine will act as a heater and a back up to the battery range. Another nice thing about a PHEV is you can pre-heat it electrically before heading out, saving on gas and EV range.

take the bigger picture

[Anonymous Coward]

im sure your detail issues in the comparison are valid BUT the point of the story worth noting is the trend!

nope. Hybrids are bad choices for America

[WindBourne]

Here in Colorado, I can go all over i-70 with our coming tesla. By the end of this year, it is expected that we will be able to drive anywhere in the state and not worry about having access to a tesla super charger. However, at this time, we DO have other chargers available at other locations. They are just slow.

This is great!

[fat_mike]

All that electricity that powers those stations and charges those cars comes from nuclear, coal, or gas fired plants.

Re:This is great!

[Bing Tsher E]

The Peaceful Atom wins again.

I remember the jingle about "Electricity it's Penny Cheap!"

Reddy Kilowatt sung it on TV.

Re:This is great!

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Actually, the electricity can come from renewables.

Some places have hydroelectricity, nuff said.

Also, wind power and solar is available nearly everywhere, and electric cars do great on that; they don't normally need to charge up everyday, and when there's a glut of wind or solar they can suck it down; and (if you have the right equipment) even sell it back again.

Re: Electric cars work great in an urban landscap

[Anonymous Coward]

It was not so long ago that rural residents exceeded urban residents in the US. While the balance has flipped, it has not dramatically done so.

You may want to learn a bit. The ratio is about 80% urbanization in the US.

And it is still growing faster than the rest of the nation.

You can worry about the history of the rural versus the urban if you want, but it still remains true that the vast majority of the US population is in a very limited area.

That's why the popular density argument is misleading. Look at real distribution.

And your personal anecdotes are just that, you personally. Now what about the other hundred million or so car owners? Does your story have any relevance to them? Some, sure, but how many others? Enough that we can't replace 10, 20, 40, percent of current vehicles?

Can you say the same about GWatts in power plants?

[Anonymous Coward]

And do they have enough GigaWatts in their power plants to replace gas?
Do they have at least 1/10 of the needed power?
This is bullshit.

hilarious comparison

[iggymanz]

Comparing number of gas stations to "charging points" (including in people's homes) is kind of like counting everyone with a fuel can for their motorcycle,weed whacker, or chainsaw as having a gas station.

Re:hilarious comparison

[Firethorn]

Most people would have to haul that gasoline can in 4-5 times to avoid ONE fillup at the gas station. I have enough cans to fill my truck up(1 gal oil mix for chainsaw, 2 gallon for the mower, and 2 5 gallon cans, if you repurpose the kerosene one for gasoline), sort of.

Given that I know there's a number in town, I'd only count it as a 'gas station' if it has a large enough tank to realistically have fuel delivered by truck, with a dedicated pump & hose. IE starting at about 250 gallons, with most in the 500-1k range.

Because with a home charging station, you NEVER need to 'haul' electricity home.

Tesla doesn't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

(Other then Tesla, I don't really see other manufacturers really "getting it")

Tesla doesn't get it either. To make a difference, the vehicle has to be available to the masses, not just the few. Pricing a Tesla in the range of a luxury vehicle is not getting. It needs to be priced like the old air cooled VWs at a point that it would truly be a people's wagon.

The first person that develops an inexpensive EV that most people can afford will be the first one who gets it.

Not a chance.

[westlake]

You could make your charger open to people with chargers who would make them available to you...

When Hell Freezes Over.

It is not a gated community, but I live in a suburban cul-de-sac that is generally regarded as safe and secure. In no small part, of course, because there is no through traffic.

It is a really, really bad idea to try an end-run around the residential zoning laws here. Your neighbors turn on a dime and come at you with knives and pitchforks at the ready.

Re:Not a chance.

[Bing Tsher E]

I live along a rural county highway, about a mile from a prestigious small private college.

Cars whiz by all the time. I bet it's safer living here than where you are.

There is no crime here on my street.

What a non-story

[kuzb]

ok, so you've got 40,000 charging stations. Big deal. you've got 123 million people. If even half of them drive, you don't have nearly enough charging stations. It takes 5 minutes to fill up a car. It takes anywhere from 1 to 8 hours to fill up an EV. Color me unimpressed.
You'd need between 1537.5 and 12,300 hours to charge them all with 40,000 stations. Compare that to the 128.125 hours you'd need to fill every car.

What is a charging station?

[SBatman]

Wouldn't any plug count as a charging location? If so I have 20 + at my house.

Re:What is a charging station?

[mspohr]

Right.
Most EV owners charge at home using the plug already installed in their garage. So... millions of charge points already installed.

Left out

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice how they left out public charging stations, it is almost as if they don't want to tell people how few there is. Gas will always be much for convenient. Time is valuable, and any time you have to stop and wait to charge is very inconvenient.

What infrastructure? Homes already had power outlets, at most it was putting a charging station in the garage. It would be like calling how many people keep a full canister of fuel in a garage a gas station.

Nope, still a story. :)

[fyngyrz]

Nope, you're doing the math wrong because your assumptions are wrong.

EV's will almost universally charge at home while the owner is sleeping, watching his home theater, wishing the spouse was still interested in sex, etc. They will *very* rarely require a charging station outside the home (and some of them never will.) And those homes? They've all *already* got the "charging station"; it's called an AC outlet.

For about $50 in parts you can put in a 220v, 50 amp outlet without challenging most home electrical services, and in that case, you can charge pretty fast. But as long as you charge fast enough to replace a typical day's use, you will have no need for a third-party charging point. For most people, an already existing 15- or 20-amp, 120v outlet will get it done for you overnight.

That's the key: the subset of those 123 million people that have garage or curbside access to their own power systems are already all set unless they want to go state to state to see grandma, that sort of thing. Likely the places we will see lots of chargers, then, is on the interstates and so forth. Be a heck of a selling point for any restaurant accessible from those highways, too.

I also predict service trucks that carry big battery capacities so they can come out and "refill" you where you pulled over, out of electrons. :)

Re:Nope, still a story. :)

[kuzb]

You're missing my point. The infrastructure to handle large-scale EV use doesn't exist. Throwing around numbers comparing the number of EV stations to the number of gas stations is meaningless because you require 12 times more EV stations per gas stations to even make the comparison properly - and that's being generous and assuming that the number of pumps equals the number of charge outlets at each station.

So a few people have charge stations at home. Whooptifuckingdoo. That just makes the problem even worse by virtue of the fact that the charge station is only available to one person.

All of this is a classic case of trying to make numbers mean whatever you want them to mean instead of examining what the numbers really mean. In this case, the numbers mean EV adoption is fucking abysmal, and probably limited to the people who are well-off.

Re:Nope, still a story. :)

[WolfWithoutAClause]

A charge station at home is just a wall socket- you can literally just plug your car into the wall and charge it already.

So EVERY house that is on the grid is already EV infrastructure.

The numbers show that the existing grid can (with some exceptions) handle EV charging (which would and should be mostly at night where the grid is underutilised anyway.)

Re:Nope, still a story. :)

[kuzb]

It's just a wall socket if you want a car to take a day or longer to fully charge. To most people, taking that long to replenish your car's power supply is a deal breaker. So is the abysmal range present in most of the current EV batteries.

Re:Nope, still a story. :)

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Nope, even the worst case is not a deal breaker for most people.

The thing is, most people don't empty the battery most days. A lot of people do like 20 miles a day, so in practice, even with a conventional socket, the car is full again each morning; even on 110 volts.

If you have a 240 volt socket, which are very, very widely available, it's even less of an issue.

And the extra cost to install a higher current charging point is very low. Where I live most premises have a 30 amp, 240 volt circuit already for their electric cookers. That's about 6kW, and the Nissan Leaf has a 24kWh battery; it can do an 80% charge in about 4 hours.

But what does it mean, really?

[Slugster]

Japan has long used forced auto obsolescence as a means to drive its economy, being prevented from significant military spending (as the USA does). Laws concerning cars in Japan make it prohibitively expensive for average people to keep any car more than a few years before replacing it, despite how good of condition it is still in.

Is it really that surprising that car owners there are being forced into using the latest/most-expensive option currently available?

environmental hazard of underground tanks

[Anonymous Coward]

10,000's of underground gasoline storage tanks at gas stations are leaking, potentially putting benzene and other hazadrdous chemicals into the water table. I'm willing to change some of my driving habits if it helps with that, and with greenhouse gas emissions.

Japan ... about to need _more_ electricity ?!

[fygment]

Go go Japan, everything electric ... but where will the electiricity come from? Will they:

a) cover thousands of acres of arable land with solar panels;
b) build and run more nuclear power plants; or
c) build and run more "fossil' fuel power plants?

It's lovely to get on the 'all electric' bandwagon, but really, the problem becomes creating that electricity and then efficiently converting it to useful work.

The same holds true for other countries like US, but at least the latter can claim to have:

a) land for solar (not necessarily easy to distribute it due to NIMBY attitude);
b) stable enough geography for nuclear power proliferation (not necessarily a good political/social climate for them though);
c) abundant natural resources for 'fossil' fuels (not necessarily cost effective ... yet :-)

EVs in the mainstream

[billdale]

Wow! More than 200 posts on this thread in just a few hours... that is an indication just how much EVs are taking hold, and, I'm thankful for it. I cannot see any way there, will ever be a backslide to ICE (internal combustion engine) cars... I have a Prius, as well as two fully electric vehicles... but the combination of EVs and self - driving technology is bound to create some very profound changes on our streets. Driving will become much less expensive, so more people will want to drive rather than telecommute, or sit home playing video games or doing whatever else they enjoy doing. Anyone who can afford an EV equipped with self - driving technology but suddenly finds themselves homeless may have an option that has never before existed: ride around in your self - driving car, as you sleep... the homeless, rather than clogging downtown areas and parks may clog our streets instead. Pols will, of necessity, create road taxes based on mileage that can be exacted real-time as we drive, similar to how cars with transponders are charged (fees, not electricity!) on California toll roads today... that will eventually be necessary anyway as a means to compensate for a loss of gas tax, but also as a means of relieving roadway congestion. At some point EVs will hit a critical mass and will quickly become ubiquitous as the general public realizes the profound advantages of abandoning gasoline use, but the unforeseen challenges... retiring of gasoline stations, increased charging infrastructure, roadway congestion abatement and road tax reforms will generate a sea of unintended consequences.

This only works in North America

[ByzantineAlex]

where people tend to own houses. In Europe, that is very-very rare. Most people live in appartment complexes, and in the evening they always jockey for a parking spot on the street (there are vert few underground garages, and there are never enough parking spots in the reserved parking lots). So the vast majority of people park wherever they can find a little bit of space on the street, and in most cases the cars are parked in complete disorder on the curb. For instance, at work, people park under a viaduct (theoretically that's a no-parking zone, but there are absolutely not enough spots, so the police never enforces the existing laws and rules). No, this will never work with the existing technology. I'm waiting for double-triple the range and super-fast charging time - say, 5...10 minutes max. Until then, I'm not even thinking about electric cars.