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New Zealand Spied On Nearly Two Dozen Pacific Countries

Posted by samzenpus on from the keep-your-eyes-on-your-own-paper dept.

An anonymous reader writes New documents from Edward Snowden indicate New Zealand undertook "full take" interception of communications from Pacific nations and forwarded the data to the NSA. The data, collected by New Zealand's Government Communications Security Bureau, was then fed into the NSA's XKeyscore search engine to allow analysts to trawl for intelligence. The New Zealand link helped flesh out the NSA's ambitions to intercept communications globally.

26 of 129 comments (clear)

  1. What I find unbelievable... by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the general attitude of the public simply not giving a shit. This is currently front page news in the New Zealand Herald but it'll quickly be gone and forgotten, and nothing will change.

    What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

    Are we really at the point where it's too late to do anything about this and just admit defeat?

    --
    You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    1. Re:What I find unbelievable... by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 4, Informative

      Btw, the NZ Herald Articles:

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/n...

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/n...

      The key point also:

      But the Snowden papers show that counter-terrorism is at most a minor part of the GCSB's operations. Most projects are assisting the US and allies to gather political and economic intelligence country-by-country around the world.

      --
      You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    2. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most of us would have been surprised if the GCSB *wasn't* spying on the various Pacific Islands. Valid or not, it's rather assumed to be their job to do so. Let's face it - the only reason Fiji and Samoa aren't spying on NZ is because they don't have the funds to pay for it.

    3. Re:What I find unbelievable... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      What exactly do you expect spy organizations to do? Why do you think we sink so much money into them.? As long as each organization spies on other countries and they don't exchange data, they are doing their job. The problem is domestic spying, or trying to circumvent rules against domestic spying by exchanging data.

    4. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Rujiel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the NSA probably isn't proactively spying on you. What they ARE doing is building up a retroactive database of our information, so that its friends can comprehensively destroy us or our reputation at a moment's notice. Hooray for you that you want your own privacy to be destroyed--feel free to hop right off that cliff, I'm sure everyone else will follow.

      Pretty sure I've explained all this to you before, alen, but I suppose that doesn't matter since you're reading from someone else's script.

    5. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Master+Moose · · Score: 2

      I live on a quiet street and have nothing to hide - Not many people come past my property on a day basis and almost none of them would care about me.

      I am a boring man with nothing of interest happening - This doesn't mean I am about to replace my walls with glass panels, so that anyone who happens to come by my property can have a snoop as to what I am up to.

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
    6. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Rujiel · · Score: 2

      NSA and DEA team up to share data
      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/...

      NSA and FBI team up to monitor American Muslim leaders (who've committed no crime)
      https://firstlook.org/theinter...

      As for the retroactivity, do you seriously think that dragjnet data-gathering like the NSA practices on every single one of us is meant to be used *proactively*? Are you going to tell me it'll just be used to target terr'roists?

    7. Re:What I find unbelievable... by ckatko · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/201...

      >In personal testimonies about their work made available to McClatchy, veterans of the unit described pervasive and unfettered intrusion into the private lives of ordinary Palestinians, including use of information about sexual preferences and medical conditions to coerce people into becoming informers.

      Do enjoy being put in your place? Or are you going to backpedal and say, "Oh, that's just Israel. They only work with the NSA. The NSA wouldn't stoop to that level."

    8. Re:What I find unbelievable... by msauve · · Score: 2

      "because no one is tracking you. it's impossible to do it with the amount of people we have."

      If it's impossible to track 300 million+ people, they therefore have no reason to collect the data.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    9. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the Snowden papers show that counter-terrorism is at most a minor part of the GCSB's operations. Most projects are assisting the US and allies to gather political and economic intelligence country-by-country around the world.

      That's what is going to give this story legs. If it's proven that the information was used to affect domestic policy or international relations, or if there's strong evidence that it was used to exert economic leverage over Pacific island nations, then New Zealand's credibility in the neighbourhood drops drastically.

      In years past, a lot of the voice and data traffic in the South Pacific was handled by a company named Pacific Teleports. They resold bandwidth on an Intelsat bird. The ham-fisted monitoring there was almost a joke. You could actually see an additional 80-100 ms lag introduced at the exact point where the traffic left their earth station in Australia and entered the terrestrial networks there. SSL sessions would break continually.

      But people more or less expected this kind of behaviour from Australia. They've never really thought of the Pacific islands region as anything more than an undeclared territory, and ever since George W. Bush appointed Australia the 'sheriff' (his word) in the region, they've been even more ham-fisted in their approach.

      New Zealand, on the other hand, has always portrayed itself as a Pacific island country, perhaps the first among equals, but a peer to its neighbours. Its aid programme was more engaged, and it welcomed Polynesians and Melanesians much more warmly than Australia. The difference is similar to the difference between the USA and Canada. Now, imagine Canada being revealed as the primary source of intelligence gathering in the Caribbean.

      Australia has always been somewhat brazen in its attempts to influence events in the Pacific islands. New Zealand, in contrast, has (until now) appeared to be the more reasonable of the two. If that changes, then it has the potential to drive these strategically important nations closer to China. I'm not suggesting it would be 1941 all over again, but if it ever came to that, you'd think Australia and NZ would want friends on the islands here, rather than strangers.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    10. Re:What I find unbelievable... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The real question is, do the Australian and New Zealand governments have a choice. The US is positioning US marines in Australia, fully armed and munitioned (so called firing range practice), as a measure against China, around 7500 km away. Now seriously so far away from China and like only a couple of thousand against the whole Chinese army. Hmm, to me it sounds like more the number you would need to take over and occupy the Australian government parliament should they disobey. For how long did the US government punish New Zealand when the New Zealand government banned US military ships from entering if they would not declare whether or not they had nuclear weapons on board, for how many decades did this go on.

      You seriously think Australia politicians want to sign the Trans Pacific Partnership and abandon their constitution to US corporate dictates and as a consequence lose any chance of ever being elected again but if they are corrupt enough they will and the consequences for US Australia relations will be awful.

      Point the finger at Australia and New Zealand is like blaming the hostage for being kidnapped. The problem here is lazy, ignorant, stupid Americans who let their government run riot across the rest of the globe. You seriously, I mean seriously, think that those are the real choices of the Australian and New Zealand governments or just the same choices any other hostage would make.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:What I find unbelievable... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      I have one theory. We now know that the NSA/QCQH/GCSB/etc seemingly know everything about everyone. Yet the underwear bomber was allowed to board a plane despite being dobbed in to the powers that be by his own family, and terrorism really hasn't changed much.

      I am beginning to get a feeling of apathy because I am starting to believe they have so much information that they aren't able to draw any meaningful conclusions from any of it. It's very hard to target a person when you're busy tracking 7billion.

    12. Re:What I find unbelievable... by chihowa · · Score: 3, Informative

      So they're going to destroy your reputation at a moments notice, by disclosing that they illegally spied on you and open themselves up to law suits.

      Sounds great. I could do with a few million to retire on.

      Please NSA, disclose who I send text messages to.

      You will never get evidence to use against them.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    13. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 2

      You seriously think Australia politicians want to sign the Trans Pacific Partnership and abandon their constitution to US corporate dictates and as a consequence lose any chance of ever being elected again but if they are corrupt enough they will and the consequences for US Australia relations will be awful.

      Having seen what I've seen of Australian politics, and based on the observations of some who have been in the room, so to speak, yes, I do believe that they lose all reason when it comes to pleasing the US.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    14. Re:What I find unbelievable... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Have you failed to see how often a preferred ally of the US, suddenly becomes a distant ally, than a country of concern and finally a supporter of terrorism, as they refuse to obey US government dictates. Along with that goes regime change and bringing of US favoured 'er' democracy or autocracy or total chaos in order to remove actual democratic governments. Your seriously think Australia is save from that, why, a whole bunch of other countries certainly weren't.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    15. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 2

      Sorry, replying to myself. I think in fairness we have to note that the USA has meddled in Australian politics in the past.

      Again, I don't think this is a motivating factor for the modern Liberal and Labor parties, but still, it needs to be mentioned.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    16. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 2

      Playing devils advocate here, but it's hard to give a shit when there is no visible impact to anyone anywhere. Pre-spying I did stuff, post-spying I'm doing the same stuff. If there's no impact why should anyone go out of their way to care?
      Just to repeat, this is not my personal opinion, but can see why this there is no traction among the general public.

  2. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    Probably on the hunt for some Rugby talent.

    Again.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. The sky's blue to human vision. by BLToday · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every government tries to spy on every other government. Don't be surprised by it. Don't be surprised when they get caught doing it. How many Israeli spies have the US caught in the last 30 years? And the US is suppose to be Israel's BFF.

  4. a spy agency is spying, WOW by alen · · Score: 2

    it's what they do. find stuff out about other countries that they don't want anyone else to know

    1. Re:a spy agency is spying, WOW by wiggles · · Score: 2

      THIS.

      How many Chinese spies are embedded with major multinationals?

      Stuff like this happens all over the world, from every country. Everybody spies on each other.

  5. Ten comments in and the shills are here by Rujiel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Already two guys playing the "welp that's what they're supposed to do!" card. Very useful fallback when you can't use the tired old "We knew about this before Snowden!" line, huh?

  6. Snowden threads: first few comments, same disinfo. by Rujiel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Every single time, like clockwork.
    "This isn't new information!"
    "Well they're a spy agency, what do you expect?"
    "I don't care who reads all my text messages!"

    Even though this isn't representative of what most users will post later on in time.
    It's almost as if a bunch of people are employed to squat on Snowden threads and post the same old reheated bullshit!.. Oh wait, that's totally what's happening.

  7. Re:Every Nation. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Funny

    "In God We Trust... ...All Others We Monitor."

  8. Re:New Zealand spies... by mikaere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most likely an understanding of China's intentions / deals with various Pacific states, such as their support for post-coup Fiji.

    Given the undemocratic nature of UN representation (Tuvalu's population of 10,000 has the same level of representation is India's 1.24 billion), the Pacific's developing nations are prime targets for vote-buying by China, US and other regional players.

    I am a kiwi, and I have campaigned against this government and find this kind of spying to be very much against my country's values.

    --
    It's good luck to be superstitious
  9. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course this is what spy agencies do, nobody disputes this. The point is that they are overdoing it, and that is dangerous.

    And there is always a platoon of commenters that use the same worn-out arguments to muddy the discussion. Personally I'm not convinced these people are professionals rather than amateurs, but the distracting effect is there all the same.