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New Zealand Spied On Nearly Two Dozen Pacific Countries

Posted by samzenpus on from the keep-your-eyes-on-your-own-paper dept.

An anonymous reader writes New documents from Edward Snowden indicate New Zealand undertook "full take" interception of communications from Pacific nations and forwarded the data to the NSA. The data, collected by New Zealand's Government Communications Security Bureau, was then fed into the NSA's XKeyscore search engine to allow analysts to trawl for intelligence. The New Zealand link helped flesh out the NSA's ambitions to intercept communications globally.

88 of 129 comments (clear)

  1. What I find unbelievable... by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the general attitude of the public simply not giving a shit. This is currently front page news in the New Zealand Herald but it'll quickly be gone and forgotten, and nothing will change.

    What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

    Are we really at the point where it's too late to do anything about this and just admit defeat?

    --
    You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    1. Re:What I find unbelievable... by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 4, Informative

      Btw, the NZ Herald Articles:

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/n...

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/n...

      The key point also:

      But the Snowden papers show that counter-terrorism is at most a minor part of the GCSB's operations. Most projects are assisting the US and allies to gather political and economic intelligence country-by-country around the world.

      --
      You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
    2. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most of us would have been surprised if the GCSB *wasn't* spying on the various Pacific Islands. Valid or not, it's rather assumed to be their job to do so. Let's face it - the only reason Fiji and Samoa aren't spying on NZ is because they don't have the funds to pay for it.

    3. Re:What I find unbelievable... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      What exactly do you expect spy organizations to do? Why do you think we sink so much money into them.? As long as each organization spies on other countries and they don't exchange data, they are doing their job. The problem is domestic spying, or trying to circumvent rules against domestic spying by exchanging data.

    4. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Rujiel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the NSA probably isn't proactively spying on you. What they ARE doing is building up a retroactive database of our information, so that its friends can comprehensively destroy us or our reputation at a moment's notice. Hooray for you that you want your own privacy to be destroyed--feel free to hop right off that cliff, I'm sure everyone else will follow.

      Pretty sure I've explained all this to you before, alen, but I suppose that doesn't matter since you're reading from someone else's script.

    5. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Master+Moose · · Score: 2

      I live on a quiet street and have nothing to hide - Not many people come past my property on a day basis and almost none of them would care about me.

      I am a boring man with nothing of interest happening - This doesn't mean I am about to replace my walls with glass panels, so that anyone who happens to come by my property can have a snoop as to what I am up to.

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
    6. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Rujiel · · Score: 2

      NSA and DEA team up to share data
      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/...

      NSA and FBI team up to monitor American Muslim leaders (who've committed no crime)
      https://firstlook.org/theinter...

      As for the retroactivity, do you seriously think that dragjnet data-gathering like the NSA practices on every single one of us is meant to be used *proactively*? Are you going to tell me it'll just be used to target terr'roists?

    7. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Really? I call BS on you right there.

      Well, while I am not surprised, I do think it is a pathetic and embarrassing situation.
      Who exactly do we feel these countries are a threat to? Let along why do we feel the need to assist the damn USA to spy on them.
      Why do we feel we should spend money to spy on countries that at the same time we actively support with financial aid and other
      forms of support? And the only reason I can think of is the government is quite happy to treat their own people like this, so I guess
      it should be no surprise that their treat their neighbors like this.

      Once upon a time NZ actually had some independence and balls.. We stood up to the US on moral grounds and told them that because we
      were nuclear free we would not accept their warships in our ports. We were told their would be all sorts of dire consequences, which of course
      there were not.

      These days we seem to be bending over backwards to lick their boots where ever possible. Aout every 12 months we seem to lead the world
      in passing some new US developed legislation to maximise the real of the US into our own country, at no advantage to ourselves (except
      possibly the same advantage you get by not looking the bully in the eye...)

      I do wonder just how much dirt the US global information vacuum cleaner has managed to suck up on the politicians.. As it is hard to see why
      they would be selling out their own people quite so deeply unless it was to protect their own arses.

      It is yet another sad step down the walk from a proud independent country to a boot licking embarrassment.

    8. Re:What I find unbelievable... by ckatko · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/201...

      >In personal testimonies about their work made available to McClatchy, veterans of the unit described pervasive and unfettered intrusion into the private lives of ordinary Palestinians, including use of information about sexual preferences and medical conditions to coerce people into becoming informers.

      Do enjoy being put in your place? Or are you going to backpedal and say, "Oh, that's just Israel. They only work with the NSA. The NSA wouldn't stoop to that level."

    9. Re:What I find unbelievable... by alen · · Score: 1

      ISIS somehow got a hold of a lot of Iphone 6 phones and reports were that during the post launch shortage last year there were a lot of muslims buying a lot of iphone's at apple stores all over the USA. ISIS even used an LA company to edit all of their execution videos

    10. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

      But, hey, keep going on believing they would never do anything bad to you.

    11. Re:What I find unbelievable... by geekmux · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Is the general attitude of the public simply not giving a shit. This is currently front page news in the New Zealand Herald but it'll quickly be gone and forgotten, and nothing will change.

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      Are we really at the point where it's too late to do anything about this and just admit defeat?

      There are two groups of people involved in this issue.

      There are those who still hold on to the belief that citizens can effectively create change, and are still enabled vehicles to do so.

      And then there are those who are smart enough to know better.

      A standing president tried to warn the American people about the Military Industrial Complex. What did that do? Not a damn thing. Should you be surprised? Not really. George Orwell warned you about all of this other shit over sixty years ago. No one listened. No one believed it could ever happen. And now it has happened. And there are no vehicles left for you to use to change or stop it.

    12. Re:What I find unbelievable... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      So you're saying all intelligence agencies in the world should shut up shop?

    13. Re:What I find unbelievable... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      So they're going to destroy your reputation at a moments notice, by disclosing that they illegally spied on you and open themselves up to law suits.

      Good luck with that. If you're in their crosshairs, you'll get bagged, tagged and shipped off to Gitmo, which is what would have happened to Snowden if was caught before he fled.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    14. Re:What I find unbelievable... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Who exactly do we feel these countries are a threat to?

      I don't know.... one of the many military coups that have happened in Fiji in recent times. It would be good to get a heads up if an extremest group staged a coup and took over a country in our backyard.

    15. Re:What I find unbelievable... by msauve · · Score: 2

      "because no one is tracking you. it's impossible to do it with the amount of people we have."

      If it's impossible to track 300 million+ people, they therefore have no reason to collect the data.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    16. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the Snowden papers show that counter-terrorism is at most a minor part of the GCSB's operations. Most projects are assisting the US and allies to gather political and economic intelligence country-by-country around the world.

      That's what is going to give this story legs. If it's proven that the information was used to affect domestic policy or international relations, or if there's strong evidence that it was used to exert economic leverage over Pacific island nations, then New Zealand's credibility in the neighbourhood drops drastically.

      In years past, a lot of the voice and data traffic in the South Pacific was handled by a company named Pacific Teleports. They resold bandwidth on an Intelsat bird. The ham-fisted monitoring there was almost a joke. You could actually see an additional 80-100 ms lag introduced at the exact point where the traffic left their earth station in Australia and entered the terrestrial networks there. SSL sessions would break continually.

      But people more or less expected this kind of behaviour from Australia. They've never really thought of the Pacific islands region as anything more than an undeclared territory, and ever since George W. Bush appointed Australia the 'sheriff' (his word) in the region, they've been even more ham-fisted in their approach.

      New Zealand, on the other hand, has always portrayed itself as a Pacific island country, perhaps the first among equals, but a peer to its neighbours. Its aid programme was more engaged, and it welcomed Polynesians and Melanesians much more warmly than Australia. The difference is similar to the difference between the USA and Canada. Now, imagine Canada being revealed as the primary source of intelligence gathering in the Caribbean.

      Australia has always been somewhat brazen in its attempts to influence events in the Pacific islands. New Zealand, in contrast, has (until now) appeared to be the more reasonable of the two. If that changes, then it has the potential to drive these strategically important nations closer to China. I'm not suggesting it would be 1941 all over again, but if it ever came to that, you'd think Australia and NZ would want friends on the islands here, rather than strangers.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    17. Re:What I find unbelievable... by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Is the general attitude of the public simply not giving a shit. This is currently front page news in the New Zealand Herald but it'll quickly be gone and forgotten, and nothing will change.

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      Are we really at the point where it's too late to do anything about this and just admit defeat?

      When was the point where it wasn't already too late? I think any of us still breathing must honestly answer that time was prior to our birth. If we ask our ancestors the same, they'd answer the same. If we asked them to ask theirs...

    18. Re:What I find unbelievable... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The real question is, do the Australian and New Zealand governments have a choice. The US is positioning US marines in Australia, fully armed and munitioned (so called firing range practice), as a measure against China, around 7500 km away. Now seriously so far away from China and like only a couple of thousand against the whole Chinese army. Hmm, to me it sounds like more the number you would need to take over and occupy the Australian government parliament should they disobey. For how long did the US government punish New Zealand when the New Zealand government banned US military ships from entering if they would not declare whether or not they had nuclear weapons on board, for how many decades did this go on.

      You seriously think Australia politicians want to sign the Trans Pacific Partnership and abandon their constitution to US corporate dictates and as a consequence lose any chance of ever being elected again but if they are corrupt enough they will and the consequences for US Australia relations will be awful.

      Point the finger at Australia and New Zealand is like blaming the hostage for being kidnapped. The problem here is lazy, ignorant, stupid Americans who let their government run riot across the rest of the globe. You seriously, I mean seriously, think that those are the real choices of the Australian and New Zealand governments or just the same choices any other hostage would make.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    19. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Rugby and cricket.

      It reminds me of what Noam Chomsky once said:

      When I'm driving, I sometimes turn on the radio and I find very often that what I'm listening to is a discussion of sports. These are telephone conversations. People call in and have long and intricate discussions, and it's plain that quite a high degree of thought and analysis is going into that. People know a tremendous amount. They know all sorts of complicated details and enter into far-reaching discussion about whether the coach made the right decision yesterday and so on. These are ordinary people, not professionals, who are applying their intelligence and analytic skills in these areas and accumulating quite a lot of knowledge and, for all I know, understanding. On the other hand, when I hear people talk about, say, international affairs or domestic problems, it's at a level of superficiality that's beyond belief.

      In part, this reaction may be due to my own areas of interest, but I think it's quite accurate, basically. And I think that this concentration on such topics as sports makes a certain degree of sense. The way the system is set up, there is virtually nothing people can do anyway, without a degree of organization that's far beyond anything that exists now, to influence the real world. They might as well live in a fantasy world, and that's in fact what they do. I'm sure they are using their common sense and intellectual skills, but in an area which has no meaning and probably thrives because it has no meaning, as a displacement from the serious problems which one cannot influence and affect because the power happens to lie elsewhere....

      There are also experts about football, but these people don't defer to them. The people who call in talk with complete confidence. They don't care if they disagree with the coach or whoever the local expert is. They have their own opinion and they conduct intelligent discussions. I think it's an interesting phenomenon. Now I don't think that international or domestic affairs are much more complicated. And what passes for serious intellectual discourse on these matters does not reflect any deeper level of understanding or knowledge.

    20. Re:What I find unbelievable... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      I have one theory. We now know that the NSA/QCQH/GCSB/etc seemingly know everything about everyone. Yet the underwear bomber was allowed to board a plane despite being dobbed in to the powers that be by his own family, and terrorism really hasn't changed much.

      I am beginning to get a feeling of apathy because I am starting to believe they have so much information that they aren't able to draw any meaningful conclusions from any of it. It's very hard to target a person when you're busy tracking 7billion.

    21. Re:What I find unbelievable... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      What is the deal with the general public's apathy when it comes to NSA/GCQH/GCSB/etc ?

      Many geeks have been crying "the world is ending" nonstop forever (warranted or not). Theres such a thing as outrage fatigue.

    22. Re:What I find unbelievable... by chihowa · · Score: 3, Informative

      So they're going to destroy your reputation at a moments notice, by disclosing that they illegally spied on you and open themselves up to law suits.

      Sounds great. I could do with a few million to retire on.

      Please NSA, disclose who I send text messages to.

      You will never get evidence to use against them.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    23. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 2

      You seriously think Australia politicians want to sign the Trans Pacific Partnership and abandon their constitution to US corporate dictates and as a consequence lose any chance of ever being elected again but if they are corrupt enough they will and the consequences for US Australia relations will be awful.

      Having seen what I've seen of Australian politics, and based on the observations of some who have been in the room, so to speak, yes, I do believe that they lose all reason when it comes to pleasing the US.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    24. Re:What I find unbelievable... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Have you failed to see how often a preferred ally of the US, suddenly becomes a distant ally, than a country of concern and finally a supporter of terrorism, as they refuse to obey US government dictates. Along with that goes regime change and bringing of US favoured 'er' democracy or autocracy or total chaos in order to remove actual democratic governments. Your seriously think Australia is save from that, why, a whole bunch of other countries certainly weren't.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    25. Re:What I find unbelievable... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      And the Japanese (submarine project for subs that are useless to us due to short range), and the Koreans, but most especially pleasing the Chinese.
      Things are currently weird. At the G20 Putin was given a Koala and smiles while Obama was called a lair in at least two press releases for mentioning something about the barrier reef. The PM, Tony Abbott, may have a forked tongue but he needs it to lick all those arses at once.

    26. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Have you failed to see how often a preferred ally of the US, suddenly becomes a distant ally, than a country of concern and finally a supporter of terrorism, as they refuse to obey US government dictates.

      No, I agree that this would be a concern to some nations. But as I said, based on what I've seen—and that includes anecdotes from some people directly involved in policy making—this particular fear just doesn't come into it. There is such care taken to please the US that Australia often offers more than is necessary to secure a deal.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    27. Re:What I find unbelievable... by grcumb · · Score: 2

      Sorry, replying to myself. I think in fairness we have to note that the USA has meddled in Australian politics in the past.

      Again, I don't think this is a motivating factor for the modern Liberal and Labor parties, but still, it needs to be mentioned.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    28. Re:What I find unbelievable... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      It seems not many honest journalists are likely to agree with you http://johnpilger.com/articles.... So yeah, Australian politicians make their own choices, yeah, nah, not that much, they aren't dumb, they know the consequences. They might fail a bit more in carrying stuff out then would seem normal, and they might leak all over the place and they might dissemble for a very long time and they might ensure indirectly that the Australian public get riled up as proof of an unpopular idea but they do not out right refuse and not because they do not want to.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    29. Re:What I find unbelievable... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      and terrorism really hasn't changed much

      Conrad's "The Secret Agent" from 1907, and set in 1886, fits depressingly well into current circumstances.

      From wikipedia:

      In modern times, The Secret Agent is considered to be one of Conrad's finest novels. The Independent calls it "[o]ne of Conrad's great city novels"[22] whilst The New York Times insists that it is "the most brilliant novelistic study of terrorism".[23] It is considered to be a "prescient" view of the 20th century, foretelling the rise of terrorism, anarchism, and the augmentation of secret societies, such as MI5. The novel is on reading lists for both secondary school pupils and university undergraduates.

      I don't agree with the "foretelling" bit on wikipedia, since Tzarist Russia had all of the above in spades in 1907 and Conrad IMHO wasn't trying to foretell anything. It's just the current situation is closer to Tzarist Russia than we would like.
      Every time I've read some Tom Clancy I've wished he's read that earlier spy novel and taken it as a cue to either lift his game or give up.

    30. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      .... I do believe that they lose all reason when it comes to pleasing the US.

      Rather like many do when discussing ..... hating the US?

      Well, there is plenty of madness to go around, isn't there? I seem to recall a certain faction of the NZ political establishment thought cozying up to the People's Republic of China was a better "fit" for NZ than allying with the US. I wonder what the people in Hong Kong would think, or the Philippines? Of course, what could possibly go wrong? What madness.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    31. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Have you failed to see how often a preferred ally of the US, suddenly becomes a distant ally, than a country of concern and finally a supporter of terrorism, as they refuse to obey US government dictates. Along with that goes regime change and bringing of US favoured 'er' democracy or autocracy or total chaos in order to remove actual democratic governments.

      Most people fail to see that since it doesn't actually happen.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    32. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The US is positioning US marines in Australia, fully armed and munitioned (so called firing range practice), as a measure against China .... Hmm, to me it sounds like more the number you would need to take over and occupy the Australian government parliament should they disobey.

      You poor soul.

      Australia counters Chinese threat
      Ascendant China spurs increased military spending in Australia

      There is a very large gap between your thinking and reality. Think of the Marines as a "trip wire" protecting Australia.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    33. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 2

      Playing devils advocate here, but it's hard to give a shit when there is no visible impact to anyone anywhere. Pre-spying I did stuff, post-spying I'm doing the same stuff. If there's no impact why should anyone go out of their way to care?
      Just to repeat, this is not my personal opinion, but can see why this there is no traction among the general public.

    34. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      In a post above you made this claim:

      What they ARE doing is building up a retroactive database of our information, so that its friends can comprehensively destroy us or our reputation at a moment's notice.

      What you posted there doesn't seem to support that claim. Would you care to provide an actual example of that happening to an ordinary American (or Briton, or Canadian, or Australian, or New Zealander) with no involvement in terrorism or organized crime? Do you have in mind someone running or office, or what? There doesn't seem to be much to your claim.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    35. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      To be fair, NZ is a group of islands in the Pacific Ocean, Australia isn't. This has more to do with geographic circumstance than any premeditated intention.

    36. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      If you're in their crosshairs, you'll get bagged, tagged and shipped off to Gitmo, which is what would have happened to Snowden if was caught before he fled.

      There is essentially no chance of that happening. The only prisoners sent to Guantanamo were people known or believed to be members of al Qaida, or its affiliates. That doesn't describe Snowden. Or are you calling Snowden an al Qaida terrorist?

      Snowden would end up in ordinary Federal court.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    37. Re:What I find unbelievable... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      A standing president tried to warn the American people about the Military Industrial Complex. What did that do? Not a damn thing. Should you be surprised? Not really. George Orwell warned you about all of this other shit over sixty years ago. No one listened. No one believed it could ever happen. And now it has happened. And there are no vehicles left for you to use to change or stop it.

      Not many years before that warning the US devoted about 40% of GDP to defense spending. The long term trend of the percentage of GDP devoted to defense spending has been a long decline until today where only aroud 5% of GDP is spent on defense. That wouldn't happen if the "MIC" were all powerful as some people mistakenly claim.

      There appears to be a gap between the facts of history and your theories.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    38. Re: What I find unbelievable... by jovius · · Score: 1

      Social conditioning since the birth. A belief that there exists a nation state; a reality shaped by a language and a culture and most importantly emotion, which can be manipulated.

      The thing is that the people behind the agencies in any country are not patriots or nationalists, but pragmatic players of a game of their own.

      In essence one could say they are the enemy. The trick is that cognitive dissonance keeps us not accepting that.

    39. Re:What I find unbelievable... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      What they are doing can't really be described as "spying" in the traditional sense of targeting specific individuals and lines of communication. They are doing a "full take", that is capturing everything that anyone in those countries does. Not just metadata, the content as well. Everything, indiscriminately.

      Imagine if Russia was tapping every single phone call made in the US. Would you consider that type of "spying" surprising? That's basically what is happening here, only much much worse.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    40. Re:What I find unbelievable... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Actually scratch that. Imagine if Russia was tapping and recording every single phone call and sharing that data with China, North Korea, Iran and a few other "partner" states. Imagine you found out that while there was some security related use of the data, mostly it was just used for economic and political reasons, like making sure US companies didn't get big contracts that Chinese ones were bidding for. Would you be surprised?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    41. Re:What I find unbelievable... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      The only danger any of the military coups in Fiji have posed to anyone is the fijian people (whatever their ethnicity).

      The days of jumping in a war canoe and going off to war with neighbouring island groups (or Tonga ruling Samoa) are long-gone.

    42. Re:What I find unbelievable... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Yet the underwear bomber was allowed to board a plane despite being dobbed in to the powers that be by his own family"

      The alternative theory is that "they" let him board and get caught in order to have an excuse to grab more power.

    43. Re:What I find unbelievable... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      A danger to Fijian people...or any New Zealander who is in Fiji.
      Or anyone at the New Zealand High Commission in Fiji

    44. Re:What I find unbelievable... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Never attribute to malice what could be attributed to incompetence.

      I love a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, but honestly I don't think the people have the brains for it.

    45. Re:What I find unbelievable... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      I totally agree, but given a bunch of stuff I'd attributed to incompetence has been proven otherwise via Snowden revelations, the other explanation can't be discounted out of hand. :-(

    46. Re:What I find unbelievable... by Rujiel · · Score: 1

      "The only prisoners sent to Guantanamo were people known or believed to be members of al Qaida, or its affiliates."

      Wow, I knew you were a shill but I wouldn't expect you'd stoop so low as to defend who all was captured and sent to gitmo. "Believed to be" al Qaeda? You mean, like this man and his three children, who were sent there because his surname *sounded similar* to that of an al Qaeda member?

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...

      He didn't deserve gitmo, but you do, as you have a career of whitewashing and justifying the suffering of innocents.

  2. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    Probably on the hunt for some Rugby talent.

    Again.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. The sky's blue to human vision. by BLToday · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every government tries to spy on every other government. Don't be surprised by it. Don't be surprised when they get caught doing it. How many Israeli spies have the US caught in the last 30 years? And the US is suppose to be Israel's BFF.

  4. well duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The shock would be the ones not doing it.

    They would have to be incompetent.

    1. Re:well duh by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Or, they could have better things to spend taxpayer's money on, such as basically anything else.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  5. a spy agency is spying, WOW by alen · · Score: 2

    it's what they do. find stuff out about other countries that they don't want anyone else to know

    1. Re:a spy agency is spying, WOW by wiggles · · Score: 2

      THIS.

      How many Chinese spies are embedded with major multinationals?

      Stuff like this happens all over the world, from every country. Everybody spies on each other.

  6. Re:Who cares by OzPeter · · Score: 1

    Who actually cares, NZ has a population of about 4 million people. Scaaaaary.

    It's not the people you have to worry about, it's the sheep.

    On the other hand, having watched both Bad Taste and Meet the Feebles I wouldn't want to mess with a country that produced Peter Jackson.

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
  7. Ten comments in and the shills are here by Rujiel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Already two guys playing the "welp that's what they're supposed to do!" card. Very useful fallback when you can't use the tired old "We knew about this before Snowden!" line, huh?

    1. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by alen · · Score: 1

      we did
      the NSA had tapped ocean fiber cables in the 1990's, there was even a book about it. and back when long distance calls were transmitted by satellite and microwave, the NSA would suck those out of the air as well. only thing changed in the last 20 years is there is more data and it's almost all on fiber rather than wireless backbones

    2. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by Rujiel · · Score: 1

      Even assuming you're right, you seriously think "interception of communications" meant the same thing in the 90s that it does now?

    3. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by pbjones · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that no one should collect data? ES has gone past the exposure of local collection and into a world which he judges is wrong but is a realistic function of government bodies, what is next? Can't read foreign newspapers or listen to local radios. As for the shill label, if that's your only comeback, you haven't given this whole issue much thought.

      --
      There was an unknown error in the submission.
    4. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Already two guys playing the "welp that's what they're supposed to do!" card.

      This statement makes me curious - what DO you think spy agencies are supposed to do?

      Do you think they're a form of welfare (providing jobs to people to do nothing)?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I guess pointing out painfully obvious facts to easily offended ignoramuses who still subscribe to the "gentlemen don't read each others mail" bullshit, makes one a "shill". Because like it or not, THAT IS WHAT INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES DO! Yes there's an intelligence agency called the NSA that gathers signals intelligence. It's been around for over 6 decade doing this exact thing for that entire time. We knew that before Snowden. Every other advanced nation does the same thing.

    6. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a) New Zeleand has been a member of 5 EYES since they started 5 EYES.
      b) Yes, identifying diplomatic, informational military and economic threats is the job of spy agencies
      c) Not doing this would be suicidally negligent.

    7. Re:Ten comments in and the shills are here by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Shills?
      Get a grip Google Sigint, Comint, and reconnaissance aircraft. Yes everyone that is literate knows this.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  8. First "Full Take" Confirmation? by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

    Is this the first time we've gotten documentation of actual full take occurring? It's the first one I recall; if it's not, does anyone have a link to past reports?

    --
    Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
    1. Re:First "Full Take" Confirmation? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      New Zealand doesn't have the resources to filter the data first, hence off-shoring that to NSA.

    2. Re:First "Full Take" Confirmation? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The personal papers of a former NZ Prime Minister did have a top secret report about what NZ was doing in the 1980's.
      Lange's secrets (15 January 2006) http://www.converge.org.nz/pma...
      Of interest to NZ where Japanese and Philippines diplomatic cables, the government communications of Fiji, the Solomons, Tonga, "international organisations operating in the Pacific" and UN diplomatic cables.
      It was interesting to see terms like "most of the raw traffic used" "South Pacific telex messages on satellite communications", "The raw traffic for this reporting provided by NSA the US National Security Agency).""
      Japanese diplomatic cables, French Pacific satellite intercept, "French South Pacific civil, naval and military; French Antarctic civil; Vietnamese diplomatic; North Korean diplomatic; Egyptian diplomatic; Soviet merchant and scientific research shipping; Soviet Antarctic civil. Soviet fisheries; Argentine naval; Non-Soviet Antarctic civil; East German diplomatic; Japanese diplomatic; Philippine diplomatic; South African Armed Forces; Laotian diplomatic (and) UN diplomatic."
      So the world has had some look at what NZ was interested in and how it was done in bulk years ago.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  9. Snowden threads: first few comments, same disinfo. by Rujiel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Every single time, like clockwork.
    "This isn't new information!"
    "Well they're a spy agency, what do you expect?"
    "I don't care who reads all my text messages!"

    Even though this isn't representative of what most users will post later on in time.
    It's almost as if a bunch of people are employed to squat on Snowden threads and post the same old reheated bullshit!.. Oh wait, that's totally what's happening.

  10. New Zealand spies... by TheBilgeRat · · Score: 1

    What were they looking for? A general weakness for wool products? The likelihood of spending lots of money on tickets to see Flight of the Conchords? Susceptible coastlines perfect for beaching wakas and unloading a bunch of All Blacks?

    1. Re:New Zealand spies... by mikaere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most likely an understanding of China's intentions / deals with various Pacific states, such as their support for post-coup Fiji.

      Given the undemocratic nature of UN representation (Tuvalu's population of 10,000 has the same level of representation is India's 1.24 billion), the Pacific's developing nations are prime targets for vote-buying by China, US and other regional players.

      I am a kiwi, and I have campaigned against this government and find this kind of spying to be very much against my country's values.

      --
      It's good luck to be superstitious
    2. Re:New Zealand spies... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Trade, aid and diplomatic cables. Anything that could degrade NZ standing in the region and have it replaced by a France, EU, Japan or China.
      NZ can also trade its geographic location to the US and UK to offer them full civil, naval and military satellite intercepts in the region.
      For that NZ gets huge hardware and software upgrades it could never afford and gets to share in the raw material of interest to NZ.
      US and UK staff also get to be "attached" to the NZ effort and can see the world and help with collection around the world. Generations of staff get an understanding of regional telco systems and bulk US/UK collection globally. NZ faced new cypher machines in Japan and had to work hard with the US and UK to get back in the 1980's.
      NZ is looking for everything in real time just like the US and UK. Different diplomatic cables might be of more interest but NZ is getting everything in the region and beyond. The prestige of raw traffic.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:New Zealand spies... by TheBilgeRat · · Score: 1

      Wow, thanks for sharing. I was just being a flippiant 'Merican and trying to be funny. I should have known that there was stuff going down of a serious nature.

  11. Re:Every Nation. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Funny

    "In God We Trust... ...All Others We Monitor."

  12. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Although I intensely dislike what New Zealand (where I live), if you live in New Zealand this is indeed not news. That NZ is part of 5 eyes is understood here by anyone that cares in the least. That there is equipment owned by the USA for spying on everyone else is also not news - The Waihopai Ploughsares incident - where activists damaged a spy dome was big news at the time (ie April 2008). Wikipedia even has a whole article on this spy base - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station and its public history.

  13. Re:Who cares by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    Don't forget Braindead

  14. Re:New Zealand? There be dragons there! by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    No dragons, just Hobbits.

  15. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course this is what spy agencies do, nobody disputes this. The point is that they are overdoing it, and that is dangerous.

    And there is always a platoon of commenters that use the same worn-out arguments to muddy the discussion. Personally I'm not convinced these people are professionals rather than amateurs, but the distracting effect is there all the same.

  16. Re:Who cares by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

    Rusty Crowe is bloody scary, have you seen him as Maximus in Gladiator?

    Though these days he tries to pass himself off as New South Welsh, having lost his kiwi accent.

  17. new documents? by franciscohs · · Score: 1

    Can someone in the know explain how does this work? are new documents being leaked constantly or what? how is it that we see new stories like these so frequently?

    If new documents are being leaked, by whom?

    1. Re:new documents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Can someone in the know explain how does this work? are new documents being leaked constantly or what? how is it that we see new stories like these so frequently?

      First, there is more than one leaker.

      Second, for the material Snowden leaked, he took it to a couple of journalists. There was more than he could have analyzed himself, and he didn't have the time or the expertise to do it. Snowden no longer has the documents; the journalists who are now in posession of the documents are going through them and making their own professional judgements about what to disclose, what to redact in what is disclosed, what is unimportant and not to disclose, and what is sufficiently sensitive that they choose not to disclose it.

      (Yes, NSA, it's true that the journalists don't have all the information they need to make fully-informed professional judgements. The information required is classified, most likely for good reason, and they don't have a need to know. So, you're just going to have to deal with it. Be grateful that Snowden and the other leakers chose to leak to journalists, rather than irresponsibly do a document dump to the entire planet. And maybe you should worry more about actual spies in your midst, who will disclose only to your adversaries. Gee, it's almost like having backdoors for trusted people is bad security policy, because if you can't trust your own subcontractors or direct employees, why the hell should we random citizens trust you? :)

  18. Re:Who cares by Pav · · Score: 1

    Or Black Sheep... The Weta Workshop was involved, though I'm not sure if Peter Jackson directly played a part. It's certainly in line with what we know he's capable of though (from his early work). ;)

  19. Slow drip from a data dump by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Too much to publish at once.

  20. Well they did have that big eye... by khelms · · Score: 1

    sitting on top of barad-dur

  21. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

    "Muddy the discussion"? You mean like having two opposing viewpoints represented? Having an actual discussion instead of choir practice? Well, that's the problem isn't it? Far too many people are here for choir practice instead of discussion, and a lot of that "music" is pretty crappy given the varous claims about geeks and "superior" intellects. Too few people post correct information about this and related topics.

    And your crack about "same worn-out arguments" cuts both ways. Or at least you would realize it if you have any genuine insight. The right answer doesn't change just because you're tired of reading it.

    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  22. LOL; And snowden says that he will not get a .... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    fair trial.

    He absolutely will if he comes back home. Then he will get a improper execution using the new drug cocktail that does not work well.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  23. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by mean+pun · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but I don't have the intellect to see why replying to the allegation 'this spy agency is spying way too much' with 'yawn, we knew this', or 'spy agencies spy, what did you expect?' is a valuable contribution to the discussion. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it is just a gaseous burp from an underbelly rather than intentional muddying of the discussion, but a helpful reply? Sorry, no, I don't see it.

    Regarding facts, if you think the news item under discussion is in some way factually incorrect, feel free to contribute a correction. And no, the worn-out arguments are not equally divided between both sides of the discussion. There is a constant flow of new revelations about the spy agencies overstepping reasonable bounds, and that is exactly what is so disturbing.

  24. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by RuffMasterD · · Score: 1

    It really should be a big deal. We still have major cred overseas as that tiny country with the balls to tell the yanks to fuck off with their nukes. They still haven't forgiven us for that. Yet here we are helping them damage our own reputation as a fair, fearless, and independent nation. I guess we don't need our reputation when negotiating trade deals with other countries anymore. Maybe if we grovel really hard the US will throw us some scraps instead. Look at Australia (six prime ministers no less) begging Indonesia to save the lives of two of it's citizens on death row, a year after Australia was revealed to have spied on Indonesias’ president on behalf of the US. We don't need that. Reputation matters.

    I am really happy the jury acquitted the activists who sabotaged the Waihopai spy station. It shows we haven't gone completely limp yet.

    --
    Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
  25. Two points on that by nnappe · · Score: 1

    1. Let's suppose they're not actually spying on you. But they collect everyone's data so they:
              - Could actually be spying on every major journalist.
              - Could actually be spying on politic opponents.
                - Could actually be spying on opposing (not necesarilly bad or good, just opposing) governments.
                Once you're in power, they can use parallel construction. Just release some anonymous pointers about corruption about opponents and hide for a latter time the bits about corruption of friends. (2 years ago we were wondering why NSA was spying on Petrobras. Maybe it's only a coincidence, yet the Petrobras scandal gained a lot of force in the last week before Brazil's elections)

    2. They totally can do a lot of harm without reading your posts. There is just a thing as automated NLP, sentiment analysis and that shit. I once even saw one commercial offering that listed "Belief propragation analysis in social graphs". Think about identifying who's spreading those dangerous ideas in time. And they even had the dubious taste of using Chelsea Manning as the bad boy to identify. And these are commercial offerings ... the US military compound was traditionally many years ahead in technology than the commercial world, I'm not sure that still holds, but I haven's seen any indication to the contrary either.

  26. Re:Snowden threads: first few comments, same disin by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

    "We still have major cred overseas as that tiny country with the balls to tell the yanks to fuck off with their nukes. They still haven't forgiven us for that"

    NZ has been bending over backwards to please the USA for the last 15-20 years. Whatever credibility it might have as a result of "Truck off Fuckston" should have evaporated a long time ago.

  27. NSA specifically monitoring porn habits by Rujiel · · Score: 1

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry...

    Care to tell me why the NSA cares about the por anyone looks at, if not to discredit them?