Paul Allen Helps Find Sunken Japanese WWII Battleship Musashi Off Philippines

mpicpp writes with news about the discovery of a sunken Japanese battleship by Paul Allen and a team of researchers. Microsoft co-founder and philanthropist Paul Allen and his research team have found a massive Japanese World War II battleship off the Philippines near where it sank more than 70 years ago, his representatives said Wednesday. The apparent discovery of the wreckage of the Musashi, one of the largest battleships in history, comes as the world marks the 70th anniversary of the war's end. Allen and the team aboard his superyacht M/Y Octopus found the ship on Sunday, more than eight years after their search began, Allen's publicity agency Edelman said in a statement. Detailed images captured by a high-definition camera mounted on the underwater probe confirmed the wreckage as that of the Musashi, it said. Japanese experts said they were eager to study the images to try to confirm the ship's identity. Allen's team found the battleship in the Sibuyan Sea, using an autonomous underwater vehicle in its third dive after narrowing down the search area using detailed undersea topographical data and other locator devices, the statement said. "The Musashi is truly an engineering marvel and as an engineer at heart, I have a deep appreciation for the technology and effort that went into its construction," Allen said.

Comments

Musashi

[Fire_Wraith]

According to at least one expert interviewed by Japanese public broadcaster NHK:

  "Judging from the location, it must be the Musashi," the head of a private museum specializing in the battleship Yamato, Musashi's sister vessel, said the details in the images matched those of the Musashi, which was the only battleship that sank in the area.

If anything, I'm surprised it took this long to find it. I don't think the water is unusually deep there, or at least, not in comparison to other famous sunken ships.

Re:Musashi

[RogueyWon]

It's likely not an issue of finding the bits of metal. As you say, the water isn't particularly deep. It's more a question of identification.

A lot of ships were sunk at Leyte Gulf, as well as general merchantman losses in the area during WW2. Remember that when these ships sink, they don't tend to go down in one neat piece. In particular, with warships like Musashi, it's quite common for one or more of the magazines to blow before the ship sinks. That creates a huge explosion and tends to break the wreck into a lot of small pieces.

Conclusively identifying which piece belongs to which ship has probably required the bulk of the effort here.

Re:Musashi

[Shakrai]

If depends on how you define "massive"; Salamis had more ships than Leyte Gulf and was significantly more important to Western history. In fact, it was arguably the most important battle in Western history, but that's a different discussion. :)

Leyte Gulf usually wins the biggest title on the basis of personnel involved and sheer geographical scope, neither of which have a historical analogue.

Fascinating ship

[RogueyWon]

Ah... the Yamato-class. Largest battleships ever built, but largely obsolete before they ever went out to sea.

For those unfamiliar with the history of the class, the Yamato-class vessels were Japan's final generation of large battleships, which entered service from 1941 onwards. Their 18-inch guns were the largest to be mounted on any battleship during WW2. Four ships were commissioned, but only two - Yamato and Musashi - were completed as battleships. A third, the Shinano, was converted into a carrier, while the fourth was cancelled.

The two ships that were completed as battleships (Yamato in particular) were of immense symbolic value in Japan during WW2. In addition to this, they consumed vast quantities of fuel and required specialised ammunition that was rarely available in sufficient quantities. For the above reasons, both Yamato and Musashi were held back from the major Pacific Theatre battles until late 1944 (by which time it was probably too late for them to have any impact anyway).

They were, in essence, the best WW1 warships ever made... except that they were deployed during WW2. The age of the dreadnought-style battleship was on its way out by this point and the era of aircraft carrier dominance had begun. Even if Musashi and Yamato had been deployed for key battles such as Midway and Guadalcanal, it's unlilkely they would have made much difference.

But they are, nevertheless, spectacular ships. In visual terms, they epitomize the classic battleship profile - long, low and dangerous, with very large guns. Their symbolic value has lasted long beyond the war; the Yamato remains something of a national symbol (albeit a controversial one, with links to the far-right) in Japan and has lived on in popular culture through the sci-fi franchise Space Battleship Yamato (adapted as Starblazers in the US).

And as for the specifics of this story; there's not much detail given, but I suspect that the challenge was not so much finding the wreck as conclusively identifying it. There are no shortage of Japanese WW2 wrecks in that part of the Pacific; the problem is sorting out which is which in the face of scant records.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Fire_Wraith]

Yamato was present at the Battle of Midway - it was Admiral Yamamoto's flagship. It didn't take part in any of the fighting though. As for Guadalcanal and the various actions thereof, neither Yamato nor Musashi took part, but there were several notable surface actions that did not involve carriers, and were among some of the few direct battleship on battleship fights of the Pacific War.

World War 2 was definitely the era of the Aircraft Carrier ascendant, and it's rather telling that the Shinano was completed as a carrier rather than as a third battleship. However, at the time the Yamato and Musashi were built, that realization had yet to sink in anywhere, and the US was still building heavy battleships during the same timeframe, including the Iowa class, and had plans for more. It was only by 1942 that the shift had become apparent, and the two keels laid down for the Montana class were first altered to be two more Iowas (Illinois and Kentucky), and then later cancelled a few years later. The last US Battleship wasn't launched until December 1943 (USS Wisconsin).

I'm not so sure the challenge was in identifying it though, rather than finding it - as the Japanese expert I quoted above noted, there was only one battleship lost in the Sibuyan Sea, so it's hard to consider that it would be anything but the Musashi.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Shakrai]

They were, in essence, the best WW1 warships ever made... except that they were deployed during WW2. The age of the dreadnought-style battleship was on its way out by this point and the era of aircraft carrier dominance had begun. Even if Musashi and Yamato had been deployed for key battles such as Midway and Guadalcanal, it's unlilkely they would have made much difference.

Yamato was deployed at Midway. She was part of the body of surface combatants (with one light carrier as escort) kept out of range for the surface action that Spruance wisely declined to permit. The deployment at Midway was a Rube Goldberg contraption that personifies everything that was wrong with IJN thinking in WW2; multiple formations scattered too far apart for mutual support and a requirement that the enemy do what you expect for victory to occur.

Neither ship was used at Guadalcanal for the same reason that the old American battleships weren't used: Neither side had sufficient tanker assets in theater to keep the old battle-wagons fueled. The USN deployed new design battleships (USS South Dakota, North Carolina, and Washington) but kept the Pearl Harbor survivors on the West Coast. The IJN used two older battle cruisers (Kirishima and Fuso) that weren't as fuel hungry as their bigger/newer cousins.

They were, in essence, the best WW1 warships ever made... except that they were deployed during WW2.

The biggest flaw with the IJN was their inferior fire control technology. This is evidenced both in surface actions (Samar being the best case study) and in the anti-aircraft role. The USN had radar directed fire control in 1942, for both surface targets and aircraft. The Japanese paid an extremely heavy price when attacking our ships with aircraft, the two carrier battles in the Guadalcanal campaign (Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz) were Pyrrhic tactical victories at best, with most of the Japanese aircraft losses coming from AA fire.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Shakrai]

It was only by 1942 that the shift had become apparent

This is commonly repeated but it's a false assertion. The Two-Ocean Navy Act was passed in 1940 and explicitly recognized the ascendancy of the aircraft carrier.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Fire_Wraith]

Although the Iowa class's speed allowing it to keep up with the Carrier Task Forces was certainly useful, that wasn't the dividing line between relevance and obsolescence. If anything, I would argue that Battleships are not completely obsolete even today, it's just that they're economically inefficient at the tasks and role they perform. As for secondary and antiaircraft guns, those were a standard factor for pretty much every Battleship, US or otherwise, and certainly not unique in any way to the Iowas.

The US was building battleships pretty consistently until about 1942, ironically far more so than Japan. In the same 1936-1946 time frame, Japan built the two Yamato class, the USA built and completed ten battleships. Moreover, if you consider the time frame, the Yamato's US contemporary is the North Carolina, not the Iowa. Both were designed in the aftermath of the Second London Naval Treaty, as was Britain's King George V and France's Richelieu - the difference is that Japan didn't sign the treaty, and thus built a ship vastly in excess of what the treaty would restrict. They also did so in secret, meaning that the full extent of Yamato's design and strength wasn't known in the USA.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Fire_Wraith]

I believe American technology and signals intelligence saw to it that he couldn't be there to see it, if memory serves correctly.

Re:Fascinating ship

[Shakrai]

They were never "obsolete", at least as the term is commonly used. During WW2 they were useful for all manner of things, from escort duty to shore bombardment, and the only reason you didn't see the envisioned clash of battleships in the Pacific is because Halsey blundered at Leyte Gulf and took the battleline with him in pursuit of Ozawa. If he had left Task Force 34 behind, as he should have, it would have been American battleships and cruisers clashing with the Center Force, rather than escort carriers and destroyers.

As it happened, the Allied battleships performed their envisioned missions with distinction, and even a single German battleship (Tirpitz) was taken seriously enough to tie down most of the Royal Navy's battleships until she was put out of action. It was actually pretty damned hard to sink a battleship with aircraft, even under favorable conditions, as evidenced by Tirpitz, Yamato, and Musashi. To my knowledge there was only one Allied battleship lost at sea to aircraft, HMS Prince of Wales. American battleships were damaged by aircraft at sea, but never sunk or even put out of action.

Re:At last...

[rogoshen1]

Impossible, have you use Apple's mapping ?? He would have likely found the Bismarck had that been the case.

I found your Battleship

[Megahard]

Billionaires play Battleship with real battleships.

Re:At last...

[Tablizer]

You are just holding it wrong

Re:At last...

[antifoidulus]

It's not just their upgrade...they seem to really want to replicate Microsoft in its heyday, huge company, really shitty software. They managed to fuck up DNS on OS X....how the fuck do you fuck up something as critical and (relatively) simple and stable as DNS?

Re:At last...

[jfdavis668]

A man using Apple Maps walked into a bar, or a hotel, or possibly a church...

Re:At last...

[Calydor]

Yes, he discovered something the Japanese invented/built over 70 years ago!