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Ultralight Convertibles Approaching Desktop Performance

Posted by timothy on from the lots-of-moving-parts-to-break dept.

MojoKid writes Laptops with fully articulating hinges are starting to show up from more vendors than just Lenovo, though the company certainly got some mileage out of their Yoga brand of machines. Now it appears HP is getting in on the action as well, with the new HP Spectre X360 that's powered by Intel's new Core i5-5200U Broadwell-based processor with integrated Intel HD 5500 series graphics, along with 8GB of DDR3-1600 memory, a 256GB Solid State Drive (a Samsung M.2 PCIe SSD), 802.11ac WiFi, and a 13.3" Full HD (1920x1080) multi-touch screen. The Spectre X360 has a geared and spring-assisted hinges. The hinges swing open easily, and then offer more resistance as the screen is moved into an upright position, or swung around into tent, stand, or tablet modes. What's also interesting about this new breed of convertibles, beyond just its ability to contort into tablet mode and various other angles, is that performance for these ultralight platforms is scaling up nicely, with faster, low-power processors and M.2 PCIe Solid State Drives offering up a very responsive experience and under 10 second boot times. It has gotten to the point that 3 pound and under notebooks feel every bit as nimble as desktop machines, at least for mainstream productivity and media consumption usage models.

161 comments

  1. Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they will sell them without MS Windows (and the "secure" bios and so forth and so on) then I'll be interested.

    It used to be that I could zip down to Staples and purchase a laptop, bring it home, format it, install my favourite Linux version, and life would go on.

    The last time I tried that I spent TWO SOLID DAYS at Staples trying to find a laptop that would boot with my Linux "live cd" flash drive.

    I guess that the next time I need a laptop I'll have to mail order it from one of the Linux Laptop vendors that advertise online if I want something that will work properly.

    --
    If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    1. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The last time I tried that I spent TWO SOLID DAYS at Staples trying to find a laptop that would boot with my Linux "live cd" flash drive.

      You need to go into the BIOS and disable secure boot, then it should load on all of them. If it would boot your Linux distro it'd also boot whatever malware was trying to trojan Windows and that's exactly what they're trying to avoid. At least so far I haven't heard of any x86 machine where you can't do that, I'm sure that'd be major news both here and elsewhere if they started to block that.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Duckman5 · · Score: 5, Informative

      You need to go into the BIOS and disable secure boot.

      You don't even need to do that if you pick your linux version properly. I just finished installing Sabayon/Linux on my Lenovo U430p laptop after I decided I was going to reformat it anyway because of the recent Superfish fiasco. We've had a working secure boot shim for over 2 years now. No need to disable secure boot. Red Hat and Ubuntu both support it as well if you're looking for something a little more mainstream. At worst you may need to register a key with the BIOS (I did for Sabayon), but I'm not sure you even need to do that with Red Hat since their shim is actually signed by MS.

    3. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by srwood · · Score: 1

      My YogaPro 3 works just fine with Ubuntu 14.04.

    4. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by digitalchinky · · Score: 2

      From the website you linked - in reference to the shim.... Seriously?! Which part of that doesn't take a month to understand for someone that just wants to zip down to staples and grab a laptop with the expectation the install media will "just work" like it always has done for the last decade?

      To use it, rename shim.efi to bootx64.efi and put it in /EFI/BOOT on your UEFI install media. Drop MokManager.efi in there as well. Finally, make sure your bootloader binary is called grubx64.efi and put it in the same directory.

      Now generate a certificate and put the public half as a binary DER file somewhere on your install media. On boot, the end-user will be prompted with a 10-second countdown and a menu. Choose "Enroll key from disk" and then browse the filesystem to select the key and follow the enrolment prompts. Any bootloader signed with that key will then be trusted by shim, so you probably want to make sure that your grubx64.efi image is signed with it.

    5. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by puto · · Score: 1

      Really? I could spend five minutes between the Staples site and the internet looking up model numbers and Linux compatibility. And with such a low UID you would know better... Did you get it off of Ebay?

      --
      The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
    6. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just bought the Lenovo Edge Flex 15 and on Linux the Wifi card doesn't work, period. The only "fix" is to wait until 3.20 kernel adds support. Piece of shit OS or piece of shit Lenovo for not ensuring Linux compatibility? (Anyway, the keyboard sucks, so don't buy it)

    7. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Duckman5 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Seriously?! Which part of that doesn't take a month to understand for someone that just wants to zip down to staples and grab a laptop with the expectation the install media will "just work" like it always has done for the last decade?

      To use it, rename shim.efi to bootx64.efi and put it in /EFI/BOOT on your UEFI install media. Drop MokManager.efi in there as well. Finally, make sure your bootloader binary is called grubx64.efi and put it in the same directory.

      Now generate a certificate and put the public half as a binary DER file somewhere on your install media. On boot, the end-user will be prompted with a 10-second countdown and a menu. Choose "Enroll key from disk" and then browse the filesystem to select the key and follow the enrolment prompts. Any bootloader signed with that key will then be trusted by shim, so you probably want to make sure that your grubx64.efi image is signed with it.

      This part:

      Secure Boot bootloader for distributions available now
      Nov. 30th, 2012 07:51 pm

      That link, as the text following the hyperlink says, is an announcement from 2 years ago. I referenced it to show how long this software has been available for use in other distributions.
      Also, how many people who fit into your "just works" category are going to be making their own boot media? or managing their /boot partition manually? Zero. The hard part of those instructions are for the distribution maintainers. The second part is a one-time procedure of selecting "enroll-me.cer" from a list and then never doing it again. If you can select which partition you want to install your linux distro on, you can select which certificate to enroll.

    8. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      My YogaPro 3 works just fine with Ubuntu 14.04.

      Well, does the screen brightness control work properly? At least my experience is that with most laptops the brightness goes multiple steps with one keypress in Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros.

    9. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it took you 2 solid days to find a machine to boot your "live cd" maybe you should just stick to windows.

    10. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And with such a low UID you would know better...Did you get it off of Ebay?

      It's wrong to assume those with lower UID numbers have amassed more technical knowledge than others. It's also wrong to assume Linux users are more competent than their iOS and Windows counterparts. In both cases, they often aren't. Perhaps you should know better, regardless of what number follows the name you feel you needed to use this website.

    11. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I could spend five minutes between the Staples site and the internet looking up model numbers and Linux compatibility. And with such a low UID you would know better... Did you get it off of Ebay?

      Instead of spending two days at Staples he could also spend 1 minute and Google "how to turn off secure boot".

    12. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I tried that once, but they just kept shouting "You need to leave, we're closing!".

      It's all politics

    13. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Dagger2 · · Score: 0, Troll

      If it would boot your Linux distro it'd also boot whatever malware was trying to trojan Windows and that's exactly what they're trying to avoid

      No it's not. Malware is the excuse, much like child porn or terrorists are the excuse for internet filtering (and more or less anything else you want to force through as a law these days).

      The real goal is to make it as hard as possible to switch away from Windows.

    14. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by MechaStreisand · · Score: 1

      Sabayon? Really? What's the point of using Gentoo if you're just going to poison it with systemd?

      --
      Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
    15. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by alantus · · Score: 2

      I just bought the Lenovo Edge Flex 15 and on Linux the Wifi card doesn't work, period. The only "fix" is to wait until 3.20 kernel adds support. Piece of shit OS or piece of shit Lenovo for not ensuring Linux compatibility? (Anyway, the keyboard sucks, so don't buy it)

      You could upgrade the wifi card to something that works in Linux and get 802.11ac at the same time.

      See page 39 of the hardware maintenance manual:
      http://download.lenovo.com/con...

      Just make sure you get a wifi card that is in the BIOS whitelist.
      The BIOS whitelist is a list of PCI devices that have been approved by Lenovo for each laptop. If not in the list, the BIOS will refuse to boot.
      This is just an imposed restriction by Lenovo, decent laptop makers don't do such a thing.

    16. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Duckman5 · · Score: 1

      Umm..at this point I have no clue. I didn't even know it used SystemD until yesterday when I saw the configuration panel in KDE's System Settings. The documentation is kind of crap. I used Gentoo for years until I get fed up with a few broken ebuilds and used Ubuntu for a while.
      We'll see how it works out in the end. I really liked upstart when I was using it and don't care for how all-encompassing SystemD has become, but if it works, it works.

    17. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by NoahsMyBro · · Score: 1

      This could easily be due to incompetence on Lenovo's part and the fact the system has Linux instead of Windows might be irrelevant.

      My son's Yoga 2 Pro was purchased in the Fall. The wireless on his laptop was flaky as hell in our house (FIOS standard-issue wireless router), but worked elsewhere. Updated the drivers, no improvement. Spent hours on Lenovo forums and elsewhere online, trying all sorts of suggestions. No improvement. Disabled the FIOS router wireless and bought a moderately expensive new Netgear wireless router. Still no joy.

      Replaced the Lenovo wireless driver with an older, non-model-specific Windows wireless driver, and Happy Days Are Here Again.

      So even with Windows the Lenovo driver was garbage, but the MS driver was just fine.

    18. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep on lenovo I think they called it windows 8 optimized as one option and "other OS" as the other option. "other OS" is the one that you'd want. There might be another option that you have to change in the BIOS as well, but I don't recall offhand. HP has similar settings in BIOS.

      I have some doubts about those benchmarks as I recently had a lenovo g50-70 i7-4510U/HD4400 and wasn't very impressed with it's performance. In my own testing v. two i7-4800MQ notebooks(Sager NP8250-S/7330) it was at max c. 2/3 the perf of either of those and usually less. Additionally it just felt slower running windows on it even browsing and octane etc. again came out lower than the MQs and my desktops, take your pick: i7-3930k/fx9590/a10-7850k and the latter two already do feel a bit sluggish although oddly enough the a10-7850k "feels" a little smoother overall than the fx9590. The desktops only real variation of consequence are the motherboards used as each requires a different socket/chipset support beyond that there is memory "speed". The a10 has 2400, the fx9590 2133 and the 3930k 1600.

      Back to Octane, I just happen to recall those scores(single threaded IIRC):
      i3-4005U ~15k (chromebook) 4GB HD4400
      i7-4510U ~19k (windows 8.1) 8GB HD4400 (briefly used for project about to be sold off)
      i7-4800MQ ~32k 16/32GB win7/8.1/FC21 765m/780m
      i7-4710MQ ~31k 16GB(1600) OSX 10.10.1 HD4600 (HP Probook 450G has 8750m IIRC but non-function under OSX so disabled)
      i7-4770k ~32k OSX 10.9.4 32GB GTX 670FTW
      i7-3930k ~32k win7 x64 pro/Ubuntu 14.04 64GB(1600 8x8) 780 Ti (@ ~4.2GHz)
      fx9590 ~30k win8.1/16GB(2133)/R9 280X (because I wanted to build a completely AMD machine and it was cheap)
      a10-7850k ~20k win8.1/arch 32GB(2400)/R9 270(or onboard) (really for monkeying around with HSA)

      all desktops use the same model WD 10k hdds and corsair CXM 750 PSUs excepting the 3930k nzxt 850W, notebooks excepting the lenovo had ssd(boot), lenovo had some 5k hdd.

      I just found the U parts to be and feel fairly anemic, especially the one rated "i7" class. The only reason that I remember the octane scores is that was pretty much what they were using for chromebooks and we were having a discussion about that, so I decided to directly compare results from machines that I had available or access to. I never did research and verify, but it looks alot like octane is primarily if not entirely single threaded as I would have expected a significantly higher score from the 3930k over the 4770k.

      I was surprised by the relatively high MQ part scores. I knew that they were fairly powerful but I hardly expected them to match desktop i7s only expecting them to be close in some benchmarks, especially with the 4770k.

      Given the slight(again) perf increase with broadwell and my Haswell U experience, I'm having troubles with this approaching desktop perf for U parts. Maybe for the lowend i3 desktop parts, but I just can't see i5 or i7 desktop level perf.nor would I expect them to. I mean I purchased the chromebook because (a) relatively long portable batt runtime, (b) could replace ssd with something of more useful cap (c) could just install linux or use something like crouton to chroot a more complete linux runtime while retaining chromeos(the option that I took) and (d) it's small(11") and yes it is noticeably slower(not annoyingly so), it lasts 7-9 under moderate usage(as expected) under heavy usage that drops to 3-4h(think compiling large projects, etc.). The real shortcoming of the chromebook is it's limited memory and inability to expand that memory(soldered unfortunately) which is evidence by usage of a chromebox which HAS in addition to replaceable ssd also have slotted memory and IME going above 4GB DOES make a difference even in just chromeos usage(asus m004u 2955U and it's really a dual boot openelec/kodi box that hasn't seen chromeos well since it got upgraded(ssd/16GB) and tested).

      Realistically the U parts feel like a modest speedbump over the core 2 duo P8600 that two of my older notebooks have(an old M

    19. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No it wasn't. IBM for Z-Series and I-Series was involved in secure boot technology long before Intel and Microsoft were even part of it. Linux by the early 2000s had lots of secure boot advocates. As soon as Microsoft seriously planned to introduce secure boot they started working with Linux vendors like RedHat, Suse, HP... to make sure it would work with Linux.

      Why not save the paranoia and instead complain when people are actually doping something bad to you?

    20. Re: Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Agripa · · Score: 1

      This is just an imposed restriction by Lenovo, decent laptop makers don't do such a thing.

      Isn't this part of FCC type acceptance? That is the excuse I have heard from the laptop makers.

    21. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      I've been using Sabayon for a few years now - it's a nice combination of some fairly nice features (being able to mix entropy and portage, Gentoo-style config file management, fairly bleeding edge packages) and making other things just work (bumblebee, UEFI). I agree that the documentation is a bit weak (downside of a small community), but in practice the only difference from Gentoo is the package manager and default config. (The Arch wiki is also quite useful.)

      SystemD works pretty well once you get the hang of it, and these days pretty much everything supports it. Most of the criticisms of are concerning its architecture and management, rather than functional problems. (I think the most significant bug I've seen with it in the last year or two is that systemd-journald needs to be manually restarted if your rootfs gets full, which is fairly minor as bugs go.)

      I suggest making backups of your root file system (btrfs snapshots are perfect for this) before updates though - I've had a major regression about once a year, on average. (To be fair, one of them was due to me doing something very unsupported with glibc, and the other due to some somewhat uncommon hardware. Both were fixed within a week as well.)

      Feel free to reply to this post with any questions you might have about it. It definitely doesn't get as much attention as it merits, IMO, so I'm always happy to help out people who are interested in it.

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    22. Re:Now if they will sell them without MS Windows by Duckman5 · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I appreciate the offer. I'm making progress figuring things out. Finally got my stupid Canon printer working with it's lame proprietary drivers. Took some doing, but I'm better off for it. I know have a better understanding of how deb containers work. :) Anyway...next project is to figure out how to actually add a password at startup for the filesystem encryption. I'm pretty sure I clicked the box that said I would add a password later...but now I can't figure out how to add a password. LOL. Now I'm wondering if I did...that would be my luck.

  2. Not sure what they're looking at? by darkain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, I personally don't follow performance numbers too much these days, but I just went and did a comparison of this "new" system against my current desktop (most components are 4-5 years old inside)

    Theirs:
    http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cp...
    http://www.videocardbenchmark....

    Mine:
    http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cp...
    http://www.videocardbenchmark....

    So, the thing barely tops my "ancient" (by today's standards) desktop computer for CPU performance. It has half the RAM (even my old 10" netbook has 8GB DDR3)

    Really, I think I'll just label this article as another #Slashvertisement.

    1. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yep,
          I thought legally that they were supposed to disclose such things as advertisements......

    2. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by barlevg · · Score: 2

      Yep, I thought ethically that they were supposed to disclose such things as advertisements......

      FTFY

    3. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ethics in marketing can be found right beside unicorns and the Loch Ness monster.

    4. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I could, I'd throw all the points to upvote you. Exactly what you said.

    5. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by barlevg · · Score: 1

      The point is that legally DICE can do whatever the fuck they want with this site. There is no law saying that any medium needs to label an advertisement as such. The reason newspapers don't try to pass ads off as legit news* stories is about journalistic ethics, not legal concerns.

      *well, this used to be true...

    6. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by auzy · · Score: 3

      Exactly this. They are also barely upgradable, you need to pay 5x more for a laptop with decent specs, and many have weird linux compatibility issues in Linux, whereas most desktop's just work (on my Asus for instance, the I need to send a kernel parameter so it doesn't think my wifi is turned off).

      And, they will wear out faster, be less maintainable, etc. Lets revisit this story when laptops are modular.

    7. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      The whole thing is inherently silly. Laptops have ALWAYS "approached" desktop performance. Then desktops get better.

      Nothing to see here. Move along now.

    8. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 15-watt dual core ultrabook CPU beats out your 95-watt quad core desktop CPU.

      As for GPU, an ultrabook isn't intended to run cutting edge 3D stuff because of battery life considerations. Also, even though it's slower the Intel HD 5500 supports DirectX 12. Your Radeon takes 108 watts in addition to the 95 watts used by your CPU and it only supports up to DirectX 11.

      I shouldn't even have to mention the fact that the ultrabook convertible is far more portable and has an IPS panel touchscreen, which I doubt your system has.

    9. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Really, I think I'll just label this article as another #Slashvertisement.

      Watch out. Mojokid takes such accusations very personally.

      Hothardware is his site and he likes to pretend that the fact that he gets equipment for free and schmoozed by the PR flacks at the vendors does not in any way bias the reporting.

    10. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They aren't talking about regular laptops here, they are talking about ultralight convertibles.

      That aside, my own laptop smokes pretty much every desktop out there besides the very highest end, multi GPU gaming desktops.

    11. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by ezelkow1 · · Score: 1

      but it doesnt have to be like this, its because the manufacturers have been pushing the ultrabook class cpus into everything because they are cheap.

      for example, you used to be able to get this processor in a 600-700$ laptop
      http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cp...

      That is 3x the performance of these U series processors. It even matches my 2600k. However since the U's are much cheaper, and as stated in the summary, most users wont even know the difference since all they do is surf and watch movies

    12. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude looks like a wimpy doughboy bitch

    13. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There is no law saying that any medium needs to label an advertisement as such.

      Actually there is. Does slashdot qualify? Probably not. Does hothardware qualify? Borderline. Plus there are so many ways to compensate without actually using money, so loopholes abound.

      > *well, this used to be true...

      For that, there is AdDetector. It puts a big red banner at the top of many such 'articles.'

    14. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who really cares about performance these days? An i3 is overkill for the average user (think facebook, email, word processing, etc.) Generally the same with battery life (how often do you really use the laptop on the go in places without a plug? Very few really need 6+ hours battery)

      The biggest disappointment with these laptops is the price (second is HD space). For most people, the choice is between a $400-600 laptop or a $1000+ one that is slightly lighter and thinner. For the average user, there is really no reason to get an ultrabook unless they have more money than brains (and if so, they'd get a Mac, lmao)

    15. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by TheNarrator · · Score: 2

      Performance hasn't increased that much over the last couple of years. Mainly power consumption and die size decreased and GPUs have been integrated, most laptops come with SSDs, but other than that things just aren't that much faster. It's not like the late 90s where you went from a Pentium 66mhz to 3ghz in practically no time.

    16. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is a slashvertisement. It is mojokid posting more hotHardware crap articles.

    17. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by danknight48 · · Score: 1

      Exactly what i was thinking and i'am grateful you did the tests to prove it.
      If only i had some mod points to use.

    18. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Australia we require any advertisements to be labelled, just look for the tiny font near the bottom that states "this is a paid advertisement" in magazines and news papers.

    19. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by bigfinger76 · · Score: 1

      I'm already calling 'em ULCs.

    20. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What the fuck are you talking about? The Pentium 66MHz came out in 1993. The first 3GHz CPU was a Pentium 4 Prescott that came out 11 years later in 2004.

      You also must have missed the fact that not only has power efficiency improved vastly in modern CPUs compared to just a few years ago, but they have at least doubled or quadrupled in performance with lower clockspeed CPUs with half the cores running as fast as CPUs with double the cores and double the clockspeed from only five years ago.

    21. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      I remember the 90s. It felt like you couldn't get a PC home from the shop before it was considered obsolete.

    22. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Smart phones are tapering out faster but they went through a similar effect. the processor and gpu of the original iPhone vs any smart phone now for example.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    23. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me tinks you da one be smokin mon.

    24. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I shouldn't even have to mention the fact that the ultrabook convertible is far more portable and has an IPS panel touchscreen, which I doubt your system has.

      My system has a 30" IPS panel, and it is even better than a touchscreen, it comes with a mouse, which is much more controllable and efficient.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    25. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like the U chips for battery life.

      If i want a quad haswell I've got my Desktop running at 4ghz that will smoke anything I throw at it.

      My mobile use can honestly get by on AMD cat cores, but I like IPS screens so...intel it is.

    26. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And are reaching the same point. The upgrade cycle is lengthening. Manufacturers are having to turn to fashion as their model to drive sales now.

    27. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      yep a mobile i5 is not going to beat an i7 or a xenon

    28. Re: Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then put your money where your mouth is. List the specs of your average desktop PC and can bet with 99% certainty that my laptop is better. Hell, list off some gaming desktop specs and I'll bet my laptop creams at least half of them.

    29. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your display came with a mouse? What kind of weird bundle deal did you get? Is it S-IPS or just a crappy E-IPS panel? A proper 30" IPS monitor will cost almost as much as this convertible.

      Also the convertible comes with a touchscreen, a touchpad and can have any mouse attached to it via the USB ports. Three beats out your single pointing device.

    30. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by ezelkow1 · · Score: 1

      I get that, I mean that is what the U's are designed for. My issue with them, more the manufacturers, is that they are putting U's in non-ultrabook form factors. The only way to get non-U anymore is to buy a 'gaming' laptop which usually costs 2-3x as much as a laptop used to cost with the same processor

    31. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      No my SYSTEM came with a mouse. I'm sure my IPS monitor cost a multiple of what the convertibles cost. But then my system provides me many times more functionality than a convertible would.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    32. Re:Not sure what they're looking at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why did you say that your display came with a mouse? Also, why are you even responding to something that wasn't addressed to you? Original AC said that he doubted darkain had an IPS touch panel on his old computer. So because you have one, that makes darkain have one? Logic is clearly something you have trouble with.

      Your computer can never be used as a tablet. The convertible can. That makes it more flexible than your boat anchor for the vast majority of users.

  3. 12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I love it, I really do. The specs on portables have come a long way from my first inspiron back in 2001. but plain and simple I dont ever see laptops competing with desktops. They both have their purposes. and they both excel at different things. A desktop should be powerful, have large/multiple screens. Sure the laptop is powerful enough now adays but you wont ever get the cooling you can with a desktop which limits what you can put in them.

    So while approaching DT performance might be a proper analysis, i dont think laptops can replace desktops

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    1. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >A desktop should be powerful, have large/multiple screens.

      Go into your average business full of clerks and office workers. How many of them need powerful desktops and large/multiple screens?

      Q.E.D.

    2. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ITRambo · · Score: 1

      Most of our customers only use email and surf the web. Any new laptop works perfectly fine for them. They may not represent society overall. But, they sure love their laptops.

    3. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The right solution to the ergonomics problem is a dock for the laptop, not a box under your desk.

    4. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      exactly! I should have clarified. laptops are good enough for most people these days. hell i use my laptop 10X my desktop but for the things i need my desktop for (cad, editing, gaming) a laptop simply cannot compete.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    5. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      that does nothing to address the cooling aspect however

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    6. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Everyone finds larger screens useful.

      The "need" for power, boils down to how creative they are. If they are more creative. They will likely find use for the extra power. That's what the P in PC stands for: PERSONAL.

      Genuine voice recognition will gobble up cycles.

      What other things have I not thought of? Hard to say. That's rather the point. It's better not to handicap the end user just because we might not have thought of something.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    7. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Go into your average business full of clerks and office workers. How many of them need powerful desktops and large/multiple screens?

      I can daisy chain two 27" 2560x1440 monitors onto my laptop. It has a i7, 8GB memory, and a 256GB PCIe SSD. Other than accessing the Internet, there is no noticeable delay to anything I do. I doubt if I will buy a desktop computer ever again. What is the point?

    8. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In that case they are selecting a desktop because it is less likely to be stolen and may be slightly cheaper.

      If some says "High performance ultralight laptops approaching low end desktop speeds", the response is "well duh".

      If some says "High performance ultralight laptops approaching high performance desktop speeds", the response is "bullshit"

    9. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Kjella · · Score: 4, Informative

      So while approaching DT performance might be a proper analysis, i dont think laptops can replace desktops

      Not to be mean, but it already did. Far more people have a laptop and no desktop than the other way around. If you add tablets too they together have 80% of the market, desktops 20%. Apart from the performance, you can always hook up a laptop to a keyboard, mouse and external screen. And as for performance, it's probably equal to a 2005 desktop which is plenty for most people. Sure it won't replace my gaming rig or anyone else doing "serious" computing at home, but we're in a very tiny minority. Heck, I think that apart from the interface a smartphone has enough computing power for a lot of people. If you look at the Steam Hardware Survey 19% now use Intel, even among gamers it's not all hardcore.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      consoles are superior to desktops because you get the living room "lean back" experience and a console is 10x cheaper than a bleeding edge gaming rig.

    11. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      what is the video card on it? can you render CAD files? do video encoding?? I have yet to see a laptop with a video card that is even midrange by todays desktop cards.

      again, im in no way saying that a laptop cant do most things a desktop can well, and sometimes even better, but to say that laptops can replace a dedicated desktop to me just seems like we are not there yet, and until we handle the cooling issues, it wont be.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    12. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      sure, if you play FPS games and thats about it. anything else the consoles ignore today with the exception of madden it seems 90% of console games are FPS, which i frankly hate with a passion

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    13. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      while I cannot disagree with a word you said. I was not talking about the masses per se. there is still a bunch of people who need that power, music people movie people cad guys. all need the power that a desktop has that a laptop cannot match yet (ok maybe music can get by on a laptop these days)

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    14. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      so because YOU can do what you want, desktops shouldnt exist??? sorry jack. plain and simply disagree

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    15. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Go into the Cricket store and the workers will be on a small tablet trying to punch in and change your account information. No shit - last time I went in there, they still had their full desktops, but they were only used for ringing up purchases. Other stuff was done on the tablet. The tablet this particular employee was using had issues connecting to the network, so it took forever, and I had time to ask her, "You can't just do it on the computer?" No, they are actually mandating employees to use tablets now.

    16. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      oh yeah then whats GTA and AC and everything else? FPS? NO!

    17. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My laptop has dual Geforce 780M GPUs. What does your "CAD desktop" have?

    18. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by dwywit · · Score: 1

      Yep - and not just power, but storage. High-def video footage takes a lot of space, and it's not sensible to have your OS +programs on the same physical disk as your footage, and it's even better to have a multi-disk RAID for footage (RAID 5/6?), AND a separate disk for renders. Can't see them putting 3 or more drives in a laptop anytime soon.

      I've spoken to a number of people who want to edit/produce their own videos, but the most complaints come from people using laptops, i.e. OS + programs, footage, and renders on the same physical drive, and they wonder why their corei7/8GB laptop won't process video faster.

      Premiere Pro in particular is finicky about which video cards it's happy to use for hardware rendering (although it's only a plaintext file in the program's directory, and easily modified), but if your laptop's video isn't on the list, you'll be stuck with software rendering, which is MUCH slower.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    19. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The PC I have hooked up to my TV would like a word with you. It has vastly superior games, graphics and controls.

      Also, I would need a PC anyhow, so consolidating my uses into one machine is a lot better than having a bunch of half-assed devices floating around the house. In that regard, it costs no more than a console. What's a PS4 cost? $400, plus you have to buy an all new library of games while I can get a GeForce GTX 970 for $330 and play all of my existing games on it with increased detail and/or 4K resolution.

    20. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by dwywit · · Score: 2

      "for most people", then "simply no reason for desktops to exist"

      Make up your mind. Is it "most people", which implies that some need the extra power/cooling/storage/whatever, or is it "no reason", which implies that laptops will cover all scenarios?

      Or did you not think it through?

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    21. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "A desktop should be powerful,"
      All of my real work is done on compute servers in the data center that is climate controlled with redundant power and networking. I don't care how much local processing I have as long as I can be editing one deck of slides while I have one pivot table open without closing VNC and Remote Desktop.

      "have large/multiple screens."
      I'm driving three displays when I plug in at work. My main constraints on going to four are desk space to set them down and strain on my neck from turning side to side.

    22. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep - and not just power, but storage. High-def video footage takes a lot of space, and it's not sensible to have your OS +programs on the same physical disk as your footage, and it's even better to have a multi-disk RAID for footage (RAID 5/6?), AND a separate disk for renders. Can't see them putting 3 or more drives in a laptop anytime soon.

      I've spoken to a number of people who want to edit/produce their own videos, but the most complaints come from people using laptops, i.e. OS + programs, footage, and renders on the same physical drive, and they wonder why their corei7/8GB laptop won't process video faster.

      Premiere Pro in particular is finicky about which video cards it's happy to use for hardware rendering (although it's only a plaintext file in the program's directory, and easily modified), but if your laptop's video isn't on the list, you'll be stuck with software rendering, which is MUCH slower.

      A modern laptop with SSD has no disk related performance problem with video editing, and no problem running all off the same disk, as long as you can afford the necessary capacity. I have a desktop built for HD video editing and opted for a single 512 GB SSD, and just offloading finished projects to an external disk. The main problem with a laptop for video editing is lack of a powerful GPU for hardware acceleration.

    23. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by iampiti · · Score: 1

      A bleeding edge gaming rig is just a set of very expensive not-much-faster-than-midrange parts. Besides, anything marketed "gaming" is very overpriced. You can get a very decent PC for 2x what the consoles cost. That PC will play 95% of games perfectly. The rest will work ok if you dial the settings a bit. It does does many more things that a console. Also the games are cheaper on PC and in PCs backwards compatibility goes back as far as 30 years. In consoles, if you're lucky you can play the games of the previous generation. Sure, the consoles are cheaper and simpler to use, but my point is that a decent PC is not that expensive.

    24. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it's not an ultrabook though since it's i7 core?

      desktop replacement laptops have ALWAYS been near desktops in speed. unsurprisingly so.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    25. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by houghi · · Score: 1

      What most people need is not a desktop (unless you are a gamer) but a good NAS. The NAS is what the desktop used to be. It has all your files and is the central of your devices. That you use to connect your TV to. You use it as a media center. You use it to upload stuff to the cloud.

      Your phone is your portable music box and to take pictures you put on your NAS.

      Most people will have enough with a portable when looking at power, as long as they have a NAS. The posrtable is powerfull enough to do facebook, email, browsing and the like. It is light enough to drag around the house and use it when you sit on your couch.

      If you do some average work, like homebanking or light business work, add a large screen, a keyboard and a mouse and a dockingstation if you want and you are golden.

      This will not be good for everybody, obviously, but it will for a LOT of people. I personally have 3 1920x1200 screens conected to a Linux machine (that also backs up the NAS). I have a 4 port NAS. I have an ipad mini I use when commuting as I use it to read (It was given to me, otherwise I wuld have bought some e-reader) I have an Acer (Running Windows) with a detachable keyboard for when I travel. It has the keyboard when I want to type and is a tablet when I do not want the keyboard.

      I notice more and more that the NAS becomes more and more central. The only reason that I have a desktop machine is that I want those 3 screens.

      Once this gets old (in a few years, as it is still powerfull enough) I will look for a smaller solution that can handle 3 screens.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    26. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      it's not an ultrabook though since it's i7 core?

      desktop replacement laptops have ALWAYS been near desktops in speed. unsurprisingly so.

      That's why every CG movie maker uses rendering farms of laptops.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    27. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      So while approaching DT performance might be a proper analysis, i dont think laptops can replace desktops

      Not to be mean, but it already did. Far more people have a laptop and no desktop than the other way around.

      Well I suppose it depends on how you frame the question. If w go with the "Honey Boo-Boo" effect, lowest common denominator becomes the ruling factor, we are mostly all just consuming content on our smartphones so there is absolutely no need for even a laptop, and I have read articles on just that. The smartphone is going to replace all of your computers, plus your camera, plus your wallet.

      If we ignore market share, and go with performance - then smartphones and tablets and even laptops start to fall a little short.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    28. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      What is this, 2008? For most people a laptop/convertible has more than enough power (my work provided machine is a Surface Pro 3 which I run with 2 additional monitors and it works) for anything I can't do on that I have AWS or vCloud. There is simply no reason for desktops to exist anymore.

      Do you think about only yourself when you masturbate?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    29. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Megol · · Score: 1

      Well... A SLI portable isn't a _laptop_ - unless one want to get extensive tissue damage of legs and sexual organs.

      But it is impressive what can be put into a sub 2kg notebook computer nowadays - the Aorus x3 have a GTX 970M with 6GiB video RAM...

    30. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Akaihiryuu · · Score: 1

      I just find it amusing that someone thinks Intel HD graphics "approaches desktop performance".

    31. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      the problem with a PC on a TV is that the PC game user interface is designed for an individual with a high-rez screen and sitting 24" away. not for people in front of comparatively low-rez screens and sitting 8 feet away. so I find PC games in the living room unusable.

      Not to mention the weirdness of having the keyboard/mouse set up when sitting on the couch.

    32. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by ezelkow1 · · Score: 1

      This

      Also the games being cheaper on a PC is a huge factor if your looking at it from a gaming/price stand point. If your willing to wait 6mo you can have the same title on PC for 10-15$ or even less vs. still paying 50-60 for a console version. After a few games the price difference in hardware between a console and pc vanishes. then your left with what is still a vast cheap library of games and a piece of hardware that is incrementally upgradable

    33. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Go into your average business full of clerks and office workers. How many of them need powerful desktops and large/multiple screens?

      Anybody running modern Windows OS and Office needs multiple screens. Back in the day, you could work just fine on a single 17" monitor running 1200X1600 resolution, but now most Windows programs make horrible use of screen real estate such that it is necessary to have multiple monitors to be able to place a couple of open applications on so that you can do your job,

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    34. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Go into the Cricket store and the workers will be on a small tablet trying to punch in and change your account information. No shit - last time I went in there, they still had their full desktops, but they were only used for ringing up purchases. Other stuff was done on the tablet. The tablet this particular employee was using had issues connecting to the network, so it took forever, and I had time to ask her, "You can't just do it on the computer?" No, they are actually mandating employees to use tablets now.

      Same at the AT&T store. They were busy trying to use some clunky interface on a tablet to order my friend a new SIM card. After awhile they gave up and went and did it on the desktop.
      They FAIL at trying to pretend that tablets are actually a useful tool in an office environment.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    35. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Comparatively low-res?

      Since the 1080p panel size won the supply-chain wars, most computer monitors are just TVs without tuners. The resolution is the same. Or it should be. Does anyone know what the hell "overscan" is and why I need to turn it on to get my 1080p desktop stretch to fill my entire 1080p LCD television screen when connecting using HDMI? (also why it stretches a little too much?)

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    36. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by seeland · · Score: 1

      My desktop was much, much cheaper than your laptop. I also don't need to be portable and I use it as a media server as well as for general computing tasks and for developing software. It isn't a power machine but it doesn't need to be for my uses. I can (an do) also add many cheap hard drives to it.

    37. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, there are still far more people with desktops than laptops. Don't mistake buying trends with what actually exists.

    38. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, doesn't even get very warm going at full tilt.

      Besides, how often do people use laptops on their lap? Not very from what I've seen, but mine could be if I ever needed to. Somehow I don't think I'll be doing CAD, video rendering or any kind of actual work with any computer, even the lightest ultrabook, sitting on my lap though. That's tablet realm.

    39. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CG movie makers don't use rendering farms of desktops either. They use supercomputers.

    40. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Upfront cost might have been cheaper, but your desktop probably uses 5 to 10 times the amount of power for the same tasks.

      Within a year you'll have spent far more on running that desktop than the purchase price of a similar performing laptop.

    41. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the problem with a PC on a TV is that the PC game user interface is designed for an individual with a high-rez screen and sitting 24" away.

      Are they? It's a very rare game that I cannot easily see a PC game UI sitting on my couch.

      Not to mention the weirdness of having the keyboard/mouse set up when sitting on the couch.

      A have a coffee table in my den for my gaming keypad and mouse. I can also play games using a gamepad or a flightstick. Or I could use one of these.

    42. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Great argument. You could've used your energy to give a use case to justify your opinion, instead you contribute sweet fuck all. Thanks bro.

    43. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Awesome. You spent time and energy replying just for that? Cool.

    44. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      No, why do you think about me when you masturbate? I'm flattered.

    45. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by dwywit · · Score: 1

      Well....yes. I have enough respect for you (i.e. not posting AC) to spend a little effort correcting your faulty argument.

      You're welcome.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    46. Re:12 in laptop != desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, why do you think about me when you masturbate?
      I'm flattered.

      Are you Sophia Vergara?

  4. Desktops are no longer profitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone is putting their R&D money into superthin electronics that appeal to the fashion crowd as opposed going for the performance crowd. The desktop has stagnated as much as the mobile devices have improved.

  5. The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 0

    http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_dream-2665.php/ The first Android phone, a design now hard to find.

    They got it right from the first. If anyone knows a phone with the same design but more power, please let me know here.
    G1, G1 clone, G1clone, 5row keyboard, Android Keyboard Phone.

    1. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      link broken

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    2. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by barlevg · · Score: 1

      The best full keyboard QWERTY Android phones currently available are the Droid 4 or the Samsung Galaxy Relay 4G. I have the latter, and at this point--even with Cyanogenmod 11 installed, which removes a lot of the stock bloatwear--it's barely usable.

    3. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by fnj · · Score: 1

      Yeah, um, all you gotta do is take off the spurious / after the .php

    4. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      remove the trailing slash (http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_dream-2665.php)

    5. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      lol, should have seen that one. heres my geek card

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    6. Re:The G1 (The Android, designed by Google) by seeland · · Score: 1

      I had a G1 when they first came out and I gotta agree. The form factor was really the best. My typing on the slide out keyboard was 2X the speed and comfort than any on screen keyboard I've used since. Also the little scroll knob was surprisingly useful.

  6. MojoKid = hothardware.com by Art3x · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just like snydeq always posts links to InfoWorld, MojoKid always posts links to Hot Hardware.

  7. mainstream productivity? media consumption? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

    That is also done with a 5 year old Dell/Toshiba/HP laptop. Not really a high bar to get over.

  8. I'm definitely in the market for a Core M notebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But I'll probably wait for Windows 10 to be launched so I can get it preinstalled.

    I know MS has promised a free OS upgrade, but I'm paranoid that it might not go smoothly without the OEM having tested it in advance.

  9. Re:3 pounds by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    Neither, they are using the standard weight measurement of the target audience of slashdot which is part of the civilized world that you seem to be interested enough to join and make stupid comments in.

    Slashdot is an American centric site in case you didn't know.

  10. Yeah right by gman003 · · Score: 2

    Sure, maybe it's competitive with a bottom-end office desktop, where the most intense thing it has to run is Youtube.

    But it's competitive with a $500 desktop, while it costs $1000. It's not hard to get similar performance when you literally double your budget.

    1. Re:Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your $500 desktop lacks the (IPS touch)screen, keyboard, mouse/touchpad, battery, wlan. So the price/value difference between them is somewhat smaller.

  11. Re:3 pounds by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

    I finally learned the difference between Yuan and Renminbi. RMB is a measure of value, like silver (or sterling), and CNY is a unit of measurement like dollars.

  12. 13.3 screen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really.. WTF am I gonna do with a 13.3 screen... 15.4 is the sweet spot

    1. Re:13.3 screen by dugancent · · Score: 1

      What am I going to do with a 13" screen? Carry it around without feeling like I'm lugging a 15" suitcase.

      --
      SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
    2. Re:13.3 screen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.. fair point.. I guess I just personally find 15.4 to be most comfortable form factor.. I am fine with a slightly chunky laptop

  13. depends at what level by Chirs · · Score: 1

    Even integrated video can handle Sketchup reasonably well, which is about as much CAD work as the average person will ever do.

    As for video encoding, most people are fine with letting it run overnight so the speed delta doesn't matter.

    1. Re:depends at what level by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      dont disagree with your assessment. but you prove my point with words like "reasonably" and "most people" plain and simple there is still a market for desktops, I hate these articles because i do worry about the day that the manufacturers agree and stop making desktop cards

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    2. Re:depends at what level by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Even integrated video can handle Sketchup reasonably well, which is about as much CAD work as the average person will ever do.

      As for video encoding, most people are fine with letting it run overnight so the speed delta doesn't matter.

      That really helps when the deadline is 5:00 p.m.

      The most amazing thing about the desktop/laptop wars is it always comes down to two things

      1. We have to go to the "most people" scenario to invalidate the high end desktop performance. Sorry, some of us need more than what any laptop can deliver

      2. There is no power/performance solution for laptops that couldn't be implemented better in a desktop, so it's a never ending chase.

      It's a real estate and energy density issue. I love my laptops, but really need my desktops.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:depends at what level by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Even integrated video can handle Sketchup reasonably well, which is about as much CAD work as the average person will ever do.

      As for video encoding, most people are fine with letting it run overnight so the speed delta doesn't matter.

      That really helps when the deadline is 5:00 p.m.

      The most amazing thing about the desktop/laptop wars is it always comes down to two things

      1. We have to go to the "most people" scenario to invalidate the high end desktop performance. Sorry, some of us need more than what any laptop can deliver

      2. There is no power/performance solution for laptops that couldn't be implemented better in a desktop, so it's a never ending chase.

      It's a real estate and energy density issue. I love my laptops, but really need my desktops.

      The "Most people" benchmark refers to the common class of users who use computers as tools and who really don't care either way.

      You will always have desktops. Hell, Steve Jobs even said PCs will always be around. He compared them to trucks - useful tools that people do need, but not everyone needs a truck all the time - plenty of scenarios where a car is a far better option.

      Video encoding for a 5PM deadline? If you're in a job that has that, then you'd invest in a video render farm to do just that. For the rest of us, including the days of YouTube videos uploaded every minute, whether your cat video shows up at 5PM or 5AM makes very little difference.

      Oh yes, there are plenty of tasks that a desktop does better than a laptop. Especially in the high end. But you know what? Those people who need high-end performance are in the more niche category. Those who do those things know who they are, and pick the appropriate computer for their needs. The vast majority of users find a laptop is more than capable for banging out reports, term paper, facebook, youtube, watching TV, torrenting, and dozens of other things.

      No, the desktop is NOT disappearing. It's been over 10 years since laptops outsold desktops, and desktops are still around. The low-ends don't move much (because shinier laptops can be had with similar or better specs), but the high end still sells. And there's enough "professions" that professionally bitch about it that even someone like Apple keeps a high end machine in production. Despite it being among the worst sellers in the entire product line.

      Sorry, the desktop, like the PC will always be around. Rumors about its death have been exaggerated for years and it's still around. Like Jobs said - they're trucks, and they can fulfil any purpose, maybe not as well, but they can work. That fact alone keeps them alive because there will always be a use case that someone needs that won't be fulfilled.

  14. Biggest problem for me is lack of RAM by Chirs · · Score: 2

    I work with OpenStack, and regularly want to simulate 3+ VMs on my laptop. I've got 16GB of RAM, and could use twice that, but almost no laptops support 4 DIMM slots. (You pretty much have to get the mobile workstation ones, and they cost a lot.)

    1. Re:Biggest problem for me is lack of RAM by swb · · Score: 1

      I wonder if any manufacturer of highly integrated platforms like laptops, tablets, NUCs, etc, has thought about a "prosumer" line of products tailored to those kinds of needs. At the end of the day, I don't think it needs gross enhancement -- support for more RAM and possibly a second NIC.

      The "workstation" laptop seems just overwrought -- they're too big and too expensive.

      Personally, I'd like to do a VMware cluster on NUC but would really appreciate a second NIC.

      It's kind of too bad that USB3 can't get more enterprise software support. 3.1 is supposed to support 10 Gbit/sec and seems from my experience more than adequate for a lot of lab/test kinds of purposes and probably a lot of actual low-end production workloads. I hope that eventually we reach the point where a mass-produced interface becomes both a common consumer standard AND enterprise standard, like, say, gigabit ethernet.

    2. Re:Biggest problem for me is lack of RAM by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Why would you want to simulate a VM?

      Also, non-pedantic question: Why are you using a laptop for this? Why not use a desktop/server, which seems more appropriate for your needs?

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
  15. INTEGRATED GRAFIX!!1! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How could anything with INTEGRATED GRAFIX be powerful? INTEGRATED GRAFIX can't even run Solitaire!

    1. Re:INTEGRATED GRAFIX!!1! by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Jokes aside, AMD's integrated graphics does quite well (at least both Sony and Microsoft were happy to use that in their last gen consoles).

      However finding good laptop WITH GOOD SCREEN with AMD's APUs seems impossible.

      PS
      Oh, and recently German amazon advertised new Intel's APU's (with Iris) for integrated GPU performance (still behind AMD's, while being much more expensive). Sigh...

  16. Since HP is a tremendously shitty company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think I'll get the Dell XPS 13 they compare it with. It's long pas time for me to upgrade my original 10" eeepc from about a million years ago.

  17. Nimble? by emblemparade · · Score: 2

    "Nimble" does not mean that it performs well.

    If "mainstream productivity" refers to word processing and web browsing, you are fine. But if you're doing photo, video, audio editing, heavy software compilation, scientific simulation or other work, fast boot times are not what you're after. Gaming, too, why not CPU-heavy usually, demands GPUs that only high-end, very expensive laptops can deliver.

    Yes, laptops keep getting better, but so do workstations. For the same money, you get much more bang from a desktop as compared to a laptop.

    The real story is how well the bottom has reached decent levels for "mainstream productivity." 5 years ago, a $200 netbook was really disappointing in terms of everyday performance: web browsing was slow, video playback was choppy at higher resolutions, and even word processing could get laggy. These days, machines at that price range are totally acceptable. Entry-level laptops like the Acer E3 or the HP Stream 11 are surprisingly good. Unless you're doing "workstation" work, they won't feel any slower than a laptop that costs 10 times as much.

    I think that might actually be what this article is clumsily trying to say.

  18. Great machines...for a while by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    I'm sure these computers are fabulous. I'm equally sure they'll burn out in two or three years...or less. Meanwhile, I've got a seven year old desktop PC that has never been shut off for any length of time, only rebooted.

    It's fine. Yes, I have a more up-to-date machine, which I use when I need it. It will eventually take its place as my reliable backup, when the old one finally croaks...if it ever does.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:Great machines...for a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure these computers are fabulous. I'm equally sure they'll burn out in two or three years...or less. Meanwhile, I've got a seven year old desktop PC that has never been shut off for any length of time, only rebooted.

      Using a computer for seven years is not an usage model that the sellers of laptops want to encourage. Hence the many claims that desktops are obsolete. It's a clever form of marketing.

  19. I like the tablet/laptop two-in-one design by DrJimbo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Speaking of Slashvertisements, I'm running Linux on a Dell 11" 3147 two-in-one. I can use it as a small laptop machine and I can also use it for watching Netflix in the tablet configuration. Although the two-in-one is thicker and heavier than a tablet, it can be better than a tablet for watching videos because there are several configurations where the keyboard acts like a stand so you don't have to constantly hold it.

    For me, it was $260 well spent (via the Dell outlet store). I'm pleased with the device even though the Linux support is merely adequate. No multi-touch for the touchscreen and I can't access the accelerometer. AFAIK, everything else works. I wrote little scripts to rotate the display and disable the keyboard and touchpad. I get over 5 hours of battery life while mostly watching videos. I like that the Linux desktop and/or virtual consoles are only a click or two away because I like to tinker. There are a bunch of hardware improvements that would be nice, starting with a lighted keyboard, but for the price, I'm not complaining.

    IMO, if the price is decent you might as well buy a laptop with a touchscreen that folds all the way back. I think it is a good use of resources and it makes the device much more versatile. For me personally it is better than a separate tablet and laptop. I may never buy another laptop that doesn't convert to tablet mode.

    --
    We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
    -- Anais Nin
  20. Wait a minute by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    Fantastic. They're still twice as likely to break as a desktop and on average cost double to fix. The battery still fails in 1-2 years and costs over $100 to replace with a genuine original. The screen is torture to anyone below 20/20 vision. I may be biased since I fix computers all day every day professionally but I hate laptops. Desktops are real computers.

    1. Re:Wait a minute by ihtoit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      oh?

      Here's a few black swans for you.

      I have a stack of Dell Latitude laptops ranging from a CP PII/233 (A REAL COMPUTER) up to an Inspiron 8200 P4/2.0 (A REAL COMPUTER), that all use the same batteries. The youngest battery I have for them that still holds charge, is marked with an incept date of March 2006. The oldest battery I have is marked incept November 1999. It charges to 26% of nominal capacity and runs the CP for about twenty minutes. Replacements cost £36 a pop (in 2006) for the 4400mAh packs - from Dell.

      My Asus EeePC 1008HA (A REAL COMPUTER) is four years old (purchased May 2011). The battery charges to 53% nominal and I get six hours out of that watching video. Replacement would cost about £35 - from Asus. But I'm not in a rush for that as I get to watch a couple movies on the train to Scotland without having to plug in.

      My Toshiba (A REAL COMPUTER) is about the same age as the Asus (A REAL COMPUTER) (purchased March 2011). Battery is good for about three to four hours, don't know what it charges to - probably about 60% even though I totally abuse it. Replacement? No idea.

      I can get practically any laptop keyboard for less than £50. They are necessarily built ot a much higher quality than desktop keyboards because for one thing they form part of the structure. A DECENT wireless keyboard (eg a Dell Bluetooth MM) costs about the same. You want to go cheap? Go nuts, tell me how long your £4 piece of shit Xenta or Kensington lasts.

      FWIW I not only fixed computers on a daily basis from 2002-2008, I designed and built them as well. Even after retirement I still found myself designing, specifying orders and building the things. It's as much as thing as breathing once you've been touched by it, is PC design.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    2. Re:Wait a minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      people who keep buying laptops never learn either.... if you don't absolutely need the portability and versatility of a laptop, don't buy one.. use your phone or get a tablet instead. laptops are not, and will not be still, for the foreseeable future, intended for full desktop replacement duties. their mtbf is too low, cost to upgrade and personalize too high, and cost to repair is too high.

        the only reason laptops are marketed so fucking hard is that you can pack a shitload more of them into a shipping container from china than you can desktops (or even just the desktop monitors)

    3. Re:Wait a minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your definition of "designing" a PC is like a gearhead "designing" a car because he put a Chevy crate engine in a frame and shell bought from Ford.

    4. Re:Wait a minute by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      uh, no, you have clearly not the first fucking clue about what I did for a LIVING.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  21. Desktop Performance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What utter drivel, desktop performace.. With a 13" screen! With a keyboard so small that a 6 fotter like me will wnd up twisting my fingers to type. With a built in Intel video chipset that won'y even run minecraft!

    Desktop Performance ... Pah!

  22. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Smart watches approaching super-computer performance

    Not at twice the price as the convertibles, but a tiny fraction of the cost, too!

  23. Re:3 pounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. RMB = people's currency as in RMB Yuan - the people's currency yuan. CNY is just the international symbol for the same thing.

  24. Tent mode, stand mode, tablet mode by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Now there's marketing-speak for you - putting something on a table in a funny way is now a "mode."

    I'm not sitting down, I'm in "chair mode"!

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  25. These stories are always non-sensical by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, laptops, even smartphones, are always "approaching desktop performance"... for some older definition of desktop performance. Same shit is true even of super computers. The original super computer, the Cray 1, pulled about 80 Mflops of performance. Most high end smartphones these days pull in the realm of 500+ Mflops. So they are more powerful than a supercomputer!!!! ... well than a super computer from the 70s.

    Same deal with this laptop and desktops. Yes even small laptops compete with desktops of a few years ago. However that isn't what desktops of today are like. Those are moving targets as well and they've gotten much faster. How useful that is you can argue and can vary person to person, but trying to act like these small laptops are anywhere near them is silly. You can get desktops today with 8 cores, 64GB of RAM, and multiple large video cards if you wish. No ultralight is coming anywhere near that. Now in 5-10 years? They may well be there... and desktops will be somewhere else.

    Desktops will always be more powerful simply because they have a higher electrical and thermal budget. Sticking a 90-150 watt CPU and 200+ watt GPU in a desktop is no big deal. Trying to stick that in a laptop is a recipe for disaster.

  26. Hey admins by borknado · · Score: 1

    Isn't this kind of blatantly misleadingly titled, purporting to be about processor speeds in general, but actually is an advertisement for a new HP computer?

  27. slashvertisement by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

    A $1200 laptop has barely the same power as a $200 desktop. What is this, the year 2000? This isn't news. This is just how laptops/desktops have always been.

    --
    while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
  28. Re:3 pounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure three pounds worth of sterling silver would be worth plenty to buy one of these.

  29. U's Not So Great by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    Until, this series, my 3-year old 2520m was faster than any U series processor. The current crop just edges out a 3-year old chip. The intel integrated GPU is still a boat anchor, and if anyone thinks that a GPU like that is going to keep up with a good desktop GPU--even like the defamed GTX 570, then they are out of their minds.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  30. better solution: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    1. buy a stupid slow cheap laptop

    2. remote desktop to your beast pc

    3. enjoy working with desktop power from the coffeeshop

    caveats: bandwidth, security, and i am using my remote pc for programming, not gaming/ photoshop/ movie editing/ etc

    biggest caveat: i really need multiple screens. it was a fun experiment, but not every day

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  31. Mainstream Productivity by PPH · · Score: 1

    ow do they define "productivity models"? The last big company I worked for defined "productivity applications" as things like Outlook e-mail (so your boss could get in touch with you whenever) and calendars (so your boss could see what you were up to). Real work got done on UNIX workstations.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  32. No 4K? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Without a 4K display, they can piss off.

    FHD is a joke.

  33. craptastic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Spectre X360 has a geared and spring-assisted hinges.

    How fucking many? Learn to write, you dumb nigger.

  34. Secure Boot is Windows only .. by lippydude · · Score: 0

    @innocent_white_lamb: "The last time I tried that I spent TWO SOLID DAYS at Staples trying to find a laptop that would boot with my Linux "live cd" flash drive."

    @Kjella: "You need to go into the BIOS and disable secure boot, then it should load on all of them. If it would boot your Linux distro it'd also boot whatever malware was trying to trojan Windows and that's exactly what they're trying to avoid"

    Microsoft: "Secure Boot is a security standard developed by members of the PC industry to help make sure that your PC boots using only software that is trusted by the PC manufacturer."

    I don't understand why these members of the PC industry didn't include the Linux makers in the design stage and instead made Secure Boot Windows only. I also understand that UEFI doesn't play nice with dual boot, purely a coincidence no doubt.

    1. Re:Secure Boot is Windows only .. by neoritter · · Score: 1

      By jbolden

      No it wasn't. IBM for Z-Series and I-Series was involved in secure boot technology long before Intel and Microsoft were even part of it. Linux by the early 2000s had lots of secure boot advocates. As soon as Microsoft seriously planned to introduce secure boot they started working with Linux vendors like RedHat, Suse, HP... to make sure it would work with Linux.

      Sounds like they did...

  35. Competative? by Agripa · · Score: 1

    A laptop is competitive with a desktop right up until the time it fails because of marginal cooling. Then it becomes competitive with a brick.