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Pakistan Builds Nuclear Reactors In Karachi, Sparking Fears of Disaster

schwit1 writes World leaders have fretted for years that terrorists may try to steal one of Pakistan's nuclear bombs and detonate it in a foreign country. But some Karachi residents say the real nuclear nightmare is unfolding here in Pakistan's largest and most volatile city. Of all places to locate a nuclear reactor, they argue, who could possibly make a case for this one — on an earthquake-prone seafront vulnerable to tsunamis and not far from where al-Qaeda militants nearly hijacked a Pakistan navy vessel last fall.

122 comments

  1. Feature, by Livius · · Score: 1

    ...not a bug.

  2. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Glad to see a mod on her toes in modding thearent trol!

    After all, Bin Laden had a nice urban apartement in Pakistan, was all reformed and the Pakistan governement knew thus and wanted him to get a break.

    but no. Those war mongering Americans had to go and shoot that poor man just because he allegedly was some sort of terrorist mastermind.

  3. It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 5, Informative

    This must be the most moronic article I've read in a long time.

    3/4 of the way down the text it says the only relevant piece of information: "Minhaj said concerns about the effect of a tsunami are also overblown because the new reactors are being built on a rock ledge about 39 feet above sea level."

    That's 12m above the sea. The tsunami generated by a mag 9.0 earthquake is expected to be between 0.9m and 7m high - so the plant will have 5m margin ABOVE THE WORST CASE.

    Shut up everyone, you've been lied to.

    1. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah but let's be honest this is really an, "Only the white man can be trusted with high tech!" article.

      Never mind who actually ends up building and then using the deadliest weapons. It's DIFFERENT then because we're only using them on the sort of savages who want to build and use the deadliest weapons...

    2. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What actually happened. It was known it could have happened. Nobody gave a fuck. The National Academy of Sciences reported a couple of years ago and said that the problem was ignoring the unlikely scenarios even if it was known that they were possible.

      A tsunami that high is not seen as a possible scenario, likely or unlikely.

      And the "regional instability" thing is just the West not liking anyone else aspiring to approach it. You know what'll stop backward hicks like ISIS? Technical and social advance, not deliberately holding countries back because they're seen by the World Policemen as too primitive to handle whatever.

    3. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There was none. They used the 1960 tsunami in Japan for reference in Fukushima Daiichi (unlike e.g. Onagawa) - which reached a height of 4.5m. This tsunami was caused by the 1960 Chile earthquake on the other side of the planet, across the pacific.

      Yes, baseline nuclear safety in Japan was that crappy - most operators went way beyond the baseline, but at least one didn't.

    4. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by burni2 · · Score: 1, Informative

      And you are only concentrating on one point, you find inconclusive, and this is your basis to call everyone to shut up?

      If you would have taken the time, and glimpse at a satellite image of that region, you might have recognized that the surrounding area has a nice beach style "ramp" on the west side.

      a nuclear power plant needs cooling == fresh water
      a tsunami will suck all water from the beach for approx 30s
      a tsunami will struck down the surrounding grid (== fukushima)
      a failing over flodded backup generator is bad (== fukushima)
      an emergency stop of a nuclear reactor will need after cooling or it will melt the core (== fukushima)

      And this is why it remains a very bad idea to built a nuclear reactor at a tsunami site, because a nuclear reactor needs a functioning infrastructure to safely operate.

    5. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 3, Insightful

      https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

      leads to:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...

      132.5foot = 40.4meters, that's a bit more than 0.9m or 12m. Normal waves can reach 10m in many places.

      Perhaps you should 'shut-up' and check your facts.

      And for good measure:
      Pakistan-earthquake-2013-creates-new-18m-high-island-Gwadar-coast-Arabian-Sea

      And
      https://books.google.co.uk/boo...
      ""The trading towns of Pasni and Ormara, Pakistan, located 100 km away from the epicentre, were flooded by a ~15.0m high wall of water""

      Still think it's a good place to put a nuclear reactor?

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    6. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by zm · · Score: 4, Informative

      A brand new 21st century reactor != Fukushima Daiichi 1960 BWR design. Nor 1950's RBMK design for that matter. Misleading panicky comparisons lead nowhere.

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    7. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 5, Informative

      The nuclear power plants will be ACP1000s. There is half a century of experience between the ACP1000 and the BWR-3/4 used in Fukushima Daiichi. And wouldn't you know it, there have been improvements in the meantime!

      http://www.nucnet.org/all-the-...

      It's a combined passive and active design, it doesn't need power to cool the reactor or the containment, but it has powered cooling systems in addition to the passive ones. -> NOT FUKUSHIMA.
      A backup generator that is above the Tsunami will not be flooded and will not fail because of flooding because it isn't being flooded. -> NOT FUKUSHIMA.
      An emergency stop of a nuclear reacto needs cooling or it will melt the core, which is being provided for in a much more adequate fashion than in Fukushima. -> NOT FUKUSHIMA.
      The ACP1000 is a pressurized reactor in a large dry containment, that can contain a molten core without overpressurizing the containment. It is not a small "pressure supression" containment that has been known since at least 1966 to be unable to contain a molten core - which is a statement made by none other than the vendor, General Electric. -> NOT FUKUSHIMA.

    8. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 2

      Be careful, a Japanese tsunami might flood New York!

      Tsunamis can be very tall in very specific places, depending on the geometry. Which is something you could have figured out by yourself, because the article is extremely specific "Omoeaneyoshi district of Miyako City, in Iwate Prefecture".

      The point where the nuclear power plant will be build is not a place like the Omoeaneyoshi district of Miyako City, in Iwate Prefecture - which is not at all surprising, because such places are rare. And by the way, Pasni is about 350km way from Karachi. Ormara is 250km away. Their geography bears no relationship wih Karachi.

    9. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IUTBATM... I used to be a tsunami modeler.

      There isn't a 1:1 relationship between earthquake magnitude and runup. There are some rules of thumb, but it depends on the faults in the area, if there is risk of landslides, the geometry of the ocean floor, the topography around the power plant, if the risk comes more from local earthquakes or ones on the other side of the ocean basin....

      Hopefully, whoever quoted the numbers for Pakistan has already done the study for the region; I haven't worked too much in that region myself so I don't know numbers offhand. But that 40m you mention was in a very specific location (plus, can't you even cite slashdot? http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/09/27/0225233/underwater-landslide-may-have-doubled-2011-japanese-tsunami )

      For reference, if you hear a number, hopefully they've already done such a study... usually takes one or three people a few months to a few years to do a thorough analysis (plus depending on the model, could be a fair amount of computer time), depending on how important the project is. And if it's below about a 7.5, there is usually no tsunami risk except maybe locally at the source.

    10. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This must be the most moronic article I've read in a long time.

      *for values of "long time">yesterday.

    11. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know the other reactor built to withstand a Tsunami - Yeah, Fukushima, they said there would never be a Tsunami big enough to do it any harm. Was it true? No.

      Karachi is exposed to tsunami's coming from the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean. To say the geography bears no resemblance when the places mentioned are geographically nearby on the same coast is quite frankly absurd - India was hit by 11meter tsunami from the same earthquake that wiped away Pakistani towns and the whole area is seismically active.

      Map of last 40 years earthquakes only:
      http://ds.iris.edu/ieb/index.h...

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    12. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a tsunami will suck all water from the beach for approx 30s

      Not always - only if the wave has a leading trough will it do that. Waves generated on the opposite side of the fault will be 180 degrees out of phase and have a leading crest, and will arrive at the shore without any visible warning.

    13. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, a Japanese tsunami won't flood New York.

      Then again, a New York tsunami WILL flood New York.

      And please remember that Karachi isn't a suburb of New York. The world is a lot bigger than New York and Japan. I know you skipped geography class to show your willy to the girls behind the bike shed, but this really is true. Ask a grown-up for help on the subject.

      Oh, and what is it with these claims "New Orleans is much bigger than Karachi, therefore something 20 miles outside Karachi is inside Karachi"? In what universe does that make sense?

    14. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Tsunami amplitude is a result of the topography of the ocean floor near the coastline and the shape of the coastline itself. All coastlines are exposed to tsunamis, but they only get very big in a limited number of places. Even in Japan, just short distances from the places where the tsunami did great damage, were other coastal areas that saw a much smaller wave height.

    15. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by budgenator · · Score: 2

      You do realize the height of a tsunami is dependant on the wavelength of the wave and the depth of the seafloor, that means the same wave can produce drastically different wave heights at different locations.

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    16. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by itzly · · Score: 4, Informative

      You know what'll stop backward hicks like ISIS? Technical and social advance

      Keep dreaming. People who are eager to destroy 6000 year old artefacts aren't interested in your technical and social advance.

    17. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      The nuclear power plants will be ACP1000s. There is half a century of experience between the ACP1000 and the BWR-3/4 used in Fukushima Daiichi. And wouldn't you know it, there have been improvements in the meantime!

      "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

      Douglas Adams

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    18. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Gavagai80 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's exactly the point. They destroy tech and education and social artifacts because they know that the more desperate and hopeless and disconnected the people feel, the more of them will turn to extremism and the easier the rest will be to control.

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    19. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 4, Informative

      A tsunami that high is not seen as a possible scenario

      The tide varies by over 2.5m
      Normal waves can reach over 10m in height.
      The reactor is built at only 12m above sea level !!!
      The same coast of Pakistan has already had a 15m tsunami in the last century.
      The India Ocean produced a 30meter Tsunami just a decade ago.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      So, it doesn't sound so impossible to me, I don't hear of anyone actually having modeled various earthquake tsunami scenarios for Karachi.

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    20. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Yes and the ocean floor topography next to Karachi looks much like that where the 15m Tsunami swept away 2 towns on the same coast.

      They've already said Karachi could be hit by 7m tsunamis, I'm not convinced that this isn't potentially a low estimate considering the sizes of past tsunamis in the surrounding region (15m to 30 meters)

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    21. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 2

      Next time you need antibiotics - you won't get them.
      Next time you're in a car accident - you airbag won't inflate, your seatbelts won't be there, your windshild will be made from ordinary glass, your car's chassis will be stiff.
      Next time want to eat, you won't get anything, because there's not enough natural fertilizer, there's no way to combat crop pests, there'll be only horses and oxen to pull the plow and you better get fit for threshing the grain.

      I could go on.

    22. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1
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    23. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Do you have information that shows the topography is the same, or is that an assumption?

    24. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Do you have evidence that they couldn't be a large Tsunami or is that an assumption?

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    25. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I did not say there could not be one. I don't have the information to say there can or cannot. Do you?

    26. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      I've already covered this plenty and given lots of links showing that the area is heavily seismic and has a history of large tsunamis. So, yes, see previous posts.

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    27. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      Westinghouse, not GE.

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    28. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      So fingers crossed they have a good enough understanding of the region to be sure there will never be a tsunami >12m high during the lifetime of the plant.

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    29. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, apparently they are too cheap to build the wall a few metres higher. What other corners are being cut? Does not inspire confidence.

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    30. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Yeah but let's be honest this is really an, "Only the white man can be trusted with high tech!" article.

      When in reality, nobody can be trusted with nuclear tech where tight budgets and politics exist.

      Case in point - Fukushima was originally planned by GE. GE recommended that all of the reactors be placed up on the hillside above their current location, where 5 and 6 eventually ended up. For cost reasons, reactors 1-4 were placed down at the shore line in the tsunami zone. Reactors 5 and 6 were just fine, by the way.

         

    31. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > it doesn't need power to cool the reactor or the containment

      It eventually does, there is an initial cooling window where there is a gravity feed.

      >General Electric. -> NOT FUKUSHIMA.

      GE was the primary consultant on Fukushima when it was built. Sorry to burst your bubble. TEPCO did not follow all of the GE recommendations, however.

    32. Re: It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Built by corrupt Pakistani contractors. Signed off by corrupt Pakistani inspectors. What could possibly go wrong?

    33. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that last 5m is on a slope, the water might just go over due to water speed and inertia.
      Try this in your garden: make a ramp with some flat surface, point a running water hose at the bottom, parallel with the ground, and see if water doesn't go uphill...

    34. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      "the area" is the problem. Like I said, specific topology and history of the selected location, not the general area, is a very important consideration that you just conveniently gloss over.

      Like I said, there was coastline in "the area" of the Tsunami in Japan that because of its topology did not see the amplitude that areas like the Fukushima coast did. Sorry if those details make your point more difficult, its simple fact.

    35. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      Westinghouse has build Pressurized Water Reactors (PWR), including the ones in Three Mile Island (at least for the most part, it's possible they build some experimental BWRs at the beginning). But the Boiling Water Reactors were designed and build by General Electric. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

    36. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 2

      Yes, but this initial window is several days long. Typically 3 days, but the actual amount of time is a matter of the concrete design being build. This depends on the rules under which the design is finalized and the safety margins the rules call for.

      After that it is only a matter of refilling the water tank of the heat-exchangers (which serves as heat-sink), which you can do with regular fire fighting pumps using water lines installed when the containment gets build. No helicopter stunts will be needed. You can also use whatever water you can get hold of - including sea water. It's just a heat sink outside the containment, the water doesn't get anywhere near the reactor.

    37. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      I would really appreciate to have a source for this statement.

    38. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Still think it's a good place to put a nuclear reactor?

      Yes of course. What better place to put a new modern reactor than on an existing nuclear installation with all existing infrastructure in place in the aid of long term decommissioning of older unsafe 1970s era technology. All your supposed risks and problems can be mitigated by engineering. Taking into account of tsunamis is just another thing that needs to be done when already taking into account all other environmental factors such as weather, ground condition, long term erosion, atmospheric corrosion, etc.

      There is no good place to put a nuclear reactor, or any industrial process really.There's only appropriate engineering for the chosen location.

    39. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what'll stop backward hicks like ISIS? Technical and social advance

      Keep dreaming. People who are eager to destroy 6000 year old artefacts aren't interested in your technical and social advance.

      Moreover, looking at their use of drones, sophisticated video editing, social media etc. they will gladly co-opt all the technological advances without a hint of irony.

    40. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Have they actually build one, flooded it and cut off all external power and cooling to see what happens? If not, why not? Destructive testing of failure modes is basic engineering.

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    41. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Next time you need antibiotics - you won't get them. Next time you're in a car accident - you airbag won't inflate, your seatbelts won't be there, your windshild will be made from ordinary glass, your car's chassis will be stiff. Next time want to eat, you won't get anything, because there's not enough natural fertilizer, there's no way to combat crop pests, there'll be only horses and oxen to pull the plow and you better get fit for threshing the grain.

      I could go on.

      Just because Technologies A, B and C are entirely beneficial does not mean that unrelated Technology D is.

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    42. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster featured a wave height of at least 13m. Admittedly geography is different here, but the "worst case" predicted for Fukushima was a 10m wave (the height of its sea wall protection).

      Captcha = wettest

    43. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm gonna laugh when nuclear rods are stolen and a dirty bomb is built. I sure hope they use it on their own people, the irony will be delicious.

    44. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by burni2 · · Score: 1

      Please lay out the physical principles on an engineers level! Stating something isn't simply possible because it simply is a newer design isn't engineer worthy. (it's the why'se and becauses that count)

      And actually, argumentation that fails to adress the Y's mostly stinks.

      1.) a backup generator, when not running hot but been put in "warm" start condition, will NOT fail to start ?
      - it has a chance of not starting
      - it has a chance of producing an /internal/ grid fault when being connected to the internal grid

      Yes, even when a backup generator is not flooded it can fail. Ohh yes, and a backup generator chances of failing are even better when subjected to earth quakes.

      And another poster corrected you on wave height.

      Also the coast line in Fujian "looks" a bit shallow don't you think ?

      2.)
      the advertising anouncement you posted does not state much of the information you "suggested".

      Especially the term "much more adequate fashion"
      meaning it's conventional but has more fail safes built into.

      Again please don't try to suppress physics.

      You need to actively pump coolant into the reactor and in this case it means sustain the operation of all three cooling loops.

      If one loop fails you have safety margin, increasing the energy amount in one cooling loop == make it hotter but this gives only time to fix something.

      And this means pumping pumping and pumping and then vaporizing water.

      There is no hint given at certain intercoolants like salt or low temp. melting metall, or even a free convection style cooling of any kind.

      3.)
      "The ACP1000 is a pressurized reactor in a large dry containment, that can contain a molten core without overpressurizing the containment."

      Please don't try to alter physics, if your inner cooling loop is broken - which is - if the link is correct on that detail - water, can separate Hydrogen from Oxygene your reactor can go boom.

      Heat something up, it expands, encase it and you have increased pressure.

      The only solution would be to "vent" which will vent radioactivity into the air. - only true for inner most loop.

      And as you stated yourself it's a pressureized reactor - here comes the Y for the pressure, increase the boiling point of water, because when water boils it looses it's "wanted" moderating function inside the reactor, and it would drastically increase it's volume = in a containment building up pressure.

    45. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      1) The point about the design is that power isn't necessary to cool the reactor, but there are at least 3 emergency generators. (Because of their similarities, the ACP1000 has recently been consolidated with the APC1000 design into the "Hualong One" and the exact details aren't yet available in non-chinese documents.)

      I fail to see how the coastline of Fujian has any bearing whatsoever on a power plant in Pakistan.

      2) It is, in essence, a standard pressurized water reactor with passive peripherials that don't need pumps. All PWRs can passively remove decay heat through natural convection via the steam generators. Those are where the heat ultimately has to be removed from. This used to be done exclusively by power driven pumps, but it can be done through gravity, if you have heat sink above the steam generator level. Which is what you have.

      Engineers aren't stupid.

      3) The question of hydrogen formation has been addressed at least since 1957 in the Wash-740 report. It is not new. All current designs include catalytic hydrogen recombiners from the start, which can reduce the hydrogen concentration below the point of combustion. (Combustibility is is a function of hydrogen concentration and water steam contentration. Steam will necessarily be released along with the hydrogen and render it inert for the time being, until the steam is condensed. Enough time for the catalyzers to work.) Unfortunately, older designs haven't been equipped with them in all cases, most notably in Japan - depending on local laws.

      Furthermore, the containment itself is also cooled passively in at least some of the newer designs (not sure about the Hualong One). But as far as fallout is concerned, it is enough for the containment to remain sealed until the Caesium aerosols have settled within the containment. (The basic process is the same as with fallout outside the containment. But it is faster, because of the confined environment.)

      This happens at a rate of 90% every 8-12 hours, if nothing is done. After one or two days, very little is left. If you use containment sprays (which also reduce pressure in the containment), about 20 minutes are sufficient to remove 90% of the remaining aerosols. (Another 20min will remove 99% etc.) That process is the reason why very little Caesium was released from Three Mile Island.

      Unlike the small BWR containments, large dry containment can remain sealed for over 24h even if there is no cooling whatever, because of the much larger volume.

    46. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Technical and social advance, not deliberately holding countries back because they're seen by the World Policemen as too primitive to handle whatever

      The folks in ISIS are too primative to handle whatever. Their descendants may not be. But we're absolutely right to denigrate primitive cultures.

    47. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Normal waves can reach over 10m in height

      That doesn't mean the water comes rushing in continuously at 10m. It means a bit of water splashes in. That's not a tsunami.

    48. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      They used the 1960 tsunami in Japan for reference in Fukushima Daiichi (unlike e.g. Onagawa) - which reached a height of 4.5m. This tsunami was caused by the 1960 Chile earthquake on the other side of the planet, across the pacific

      My only guess is some idiot thought that "Oh, if an earthquake hits Japan, the water and energy will be heading away from Japan, not towards it." So they thought they only had to prepare for tsunamis generated from across the ocean, as if earthquakes never happened underwater, and that water displacement wouldn't yield giant surface waves.

    49. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Well shit, Douglas Adams said it, I guess it applies to everything. We're not going to make any improvements over past designs.

    50. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      However like Fukushima and Chernobyl it will be operated by humans.

      Everything else you wrote is bable.bable.bable

      His point is that newer designs come more from the angle of protecting the plant against human error or human negligence. Such as passive cooling that won't disappear when the power goes out.

      However, having it located in Pakistan, a country that can't control its terrorists and a military that collaborates with them, is pretty scary.

    51. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      I put that there for perspective. I didn't claim those things you said.

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    52. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I don't care if they're white, black, brown, yellow, green or polka dot. What matters is that it is a borderline failed state that is about to be overrun by Salafist fanatics. Those guys, if they get their hands on a nuclear weapon, will use it. Especially if they're ISIS-brand of apocalypse now believers.

    53. Re:It be 12m above sea - max Tsunami: 7m by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      And the "regional instability" thing is just the West not liking anyone else aspiring to approach it. You know what'll stop backward hicks like ISIS? Technical and social advance, not deliberately holding countries back because they're seen by the World Policemen as too primitive to handle whatever.

      The regional instability, in case of Pakistan, is a track record of three decades of the country going down the shithole. They are literally going backwards - they started as a secular country post-independence, and now they have laws whereby women who complain about being raped can be stoned for adultery. All while developing nuclear weapons - so much for technical advance.

  4. Give me more fear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The al-Qaeda militants would probably scale a mountain to try and reach this reactor. It really doesn't matter if it's build near a military base or near a Saudi royals palace. It's a target.

    What you do however is treat that nuclear plant like a major asset, and have military garrison around it. Deter al-Qaeda, deter Greenpeace, deter crazy assholes in general. Why not deter your own corrupt military officers from trying to sieze you by the balls in the process?

    1. Re:Give me more fear by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      It's a power generation plant. I don't see how this is any worse than having a giant coal generator, except that the coal generator poisons the area around it slowly during normal operation rather than suddenly during catastrophic failure.

    2. Re:Give me more fear by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I don't see how this is any worse than having a giant coal generator,

      You answer your question.

      except that the coal generator poisons the area around it slowly during normal operation rather than suddenly during catastrophic failure.

      That's it exactly. No one cares about long-term, slow carcinogen exposure. No one cares about a death here and there, year after year. We do care about 9/11-style events or big mushroom clouds.

      It doesn't matter whether the death toll is the same. Fukushima/Chernobyl were FLASHY. A coal plant? Boring. It makes air quality bad, and kills us in ways that aren't easy to quantify.

  5. In Karachi? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 0

    It's being built 20 miles outside Karachi. Describing it as being 'in Karachi' is like describing something in Covington as being 'in New Orleans'.

    And for those who don't live in the area, Covington is across Lake Ponchartrain from New Orleans.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Of course it's not downtown right next to Town Hall. But if a central goes atomic bomb 20km from where you live, you'll have more important problems than "is it technically in 'in Karachi.'" bikeshedding.

    2. Re:In Karachi? by loufoque · · Score: 1

      At the scale of big cities, 20 miles is not that far away.
      London for example is 25 miles wide.

    3. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Informative

      new orleans

      Population (2013)[1]
          City and Parish 378,715 (US: 51st)
          Metro 1,240,977 (US: 45th)

      karachi

      Population (2013)
          Total 23,500,000[1]
          Rank 1st (Pakistan), 2nd (World)

      new orleans is a cute little rural suburb compared to karachi

      having driven to new orleans a number of times, i've seen myself that 20 miles out from new orleans it is nothing but scrub and mangroves. i can understand within new orleans itself you feel like you are in a dense city, because there's nothing else around, and you're the center of that area of the country. but this is a provincial judgment

      world cities are mind blowing compared to american cities

      here in new york city, a huge fucking megacity by usa standards but a puny light weight by world standards, 20 miles out is still dense and urban

      Population (2013)[5]
          Total 8,405,837[1]
          Rank 1st, U.S., 24th (World)

      so: 20 miles from the city center of karachi is still pretty much in the middle of dense giant fucking karachi

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    4. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      London is not a city it is a county. The city of London however is a city within the Greater London county. The city itself is nowhere near 25 miles wide. Not even close.

    5. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent point. Not only is Karachi one of the biggest cities in the world, It is a critical Pakistani city and its main port. If Karachi is disabled by a nuclear accident, all of Pakistan will be disabled. But knowing what I now about how the world works, that is precisely what the powers-that-be want.

    6. Re:In Karachi? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      25 miles is suburban Melbourne.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

      that is precisely what the powers-that-be want

      paklistan is full of conspiratorial minded morons

      every tragedy or event in pakistan, where pakistanis can face their shortcomings, come to grips with it, and move forward: nope. instead loopy hilarious conspiracies that shifts blame to the west, to the jews, to india, to iran, etc. keeps them mired in poverty, backwardness, blind denial, strife, and stupidity. every problem in pakistan is never the fault of pakistanis, it's all due to plots and secret cabals and manipulations from abroad. fucking ignorant bullsit

      here in the west we can safely laugh at paranoid schizophrenic low iq conspiracy minded douchebags. such losers are everywhere in the world. but a free society with free speech and a free press, the full light of day reveals their delusional rantings, they are ridiculed, and they are safely exiled to the backseat of the short bus and only are compelling to weak minded ignorant halfwits

      but in countries where lies, censorship, prideful ethnic and sectarian denial, etc. dominates, the mental diarrhea of conspiracies has a great power and takes hold in that darkness of no free thought, no free press, no free speech

      so when i see you write "that is precisely what the powers-that-be want", all i think is yup: there's another fucking problem with pakistan: conspiracy theory nutcases everywhere

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    8. Re:In Karachi? by bluegutang · · Score: 2

      The Karachi and NY metro areas are of similar size, but NY has a much lower density overall. Yes, Manhattan is super-dense, but most of the NY metro by geographic area is sprawling suburbs in Long Island and NJ. Karachi suburbs extend about 20km in every direction, NY suburbs extend about 60km in every direction, if you look at Google Maps. You can also see that for an 8km radius around this nuclear facility, there is almost no population.

    9. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      http://www.city-data.com/forum...

      20 miles is about yonkers to manhattan on this map

      all directions, 20 mile radius, and well beyond, is dense and urban, except for the meadowlands:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

      http://www.census.gov/populati...

      The urban fringe generally consists of contiguous territory having a density of at least 1,000 persons per square mile.

      sure, it's not 60 story skyscrapers every block, but by the definition of urban, it is urban, all around nyc, for well beyond 20 miles, except for swamps

      as for the karachi nuke site, i see a very large urban center just to the north of the complex on google earth

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    10. Re:In Karachi? by Xolotl · · Score: 1

      "London" invariably refers to Greater London which, for all practical purposes, is a city, i.e. continuous urban landscape. Nobody ever refers to the City of London as London, it's just "the City".

    11. Re:In Karachi? by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Informative

      so: 20 miles from the city center of karachi is still pretty much in the middle of dense giant fucking karachi

      You use a lot of fancy numbers but really all you needed to do was look at a map. These reactors are being built in the middle of nowhere (or rather the edge of nowhere since it's on the waterfront). The reactors are not 20 miles from the city centre rather they are actually about 15 miles from the boundary.

      Better still these nice modern reactors with all their modern safety standards and passive safety systems and an inherently safer design are being built in an existing complex next to a set of existing 1970s era reactors. The article even has a picture of the existing plant.

      This is colossal FUD, and they should be welcoming the addition of GenIII reactors so they can eventually transition away from the older ones which actually may be a problem if something seriously goes wrong.

    12. Re:In Karachi? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't that be 40 km? I thought you people were civilized.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      what about the large urban area just to the north of the nuke complex on google earth?

      regardless: poverty + violent sectarianism + unstable politics != we're happy they have nukes

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    14. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are a complete fucking idiot. If your parents tell you they are going to London no doubt you would assume they're going to London Wall to look at a few bank skyscrapers. But everyone else knows what they really mean.

    15. Re:In Karachi? by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      20 miles out is still dense and urban

      Depending on what direction you go.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    16. Re:In Karachi? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      what about the large urban area just to the north of the nuke complex on google earth?

      regardless: poverty + violent sectarianism + unstable politics != we're happy they have nukes

      How is that relevant to my comments which could be summarised as:
      a) It is no where near as bad as you make it out,
      b) This is actually a better outcome as the goal of building new large safe reactors facilitates the long term decommissioning of older less safe designs WHICH ARE ALREADY IN PLACE.

      I don't know why you keep talking like this it the first nuke complex there. It's not by a long shot. The thought process that goes into building something much safer next to something existing unsafe and then claiming NIMBY is absolutely asinine.

    17. Re:In Karachi? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      what about the large urban area just to the north of the nuke complex on google earth?

      Oh wow, I hate to double post but I just looked this up. You must be joking right? There's about 200 houses and I would postulate that a good portion of the people work at the reactor since that's how population centres like that are built up in the 3rd world.

      If this is your idea of some insurmountable risk then I have a tinfoil hat to sell you.

    18. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      do i have your permission to not trust pakistan with nukes?

      oh yeah, that's right: who the fuck are you?

      i don't trust pakistan with nukes. before, or now

      see how that works?

      i humbly beg your forgiveness oh great arbitrary authority for crossing your dictat on the matter

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    19. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      oh yeah, not trusting pakistan with nuclear, hard against one of the most populated city in the world

      truly i am deep into wackjob territory on that point

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    20. Re:In Karachi? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how it is at all relevant if you trust them given that they already have them. It's like standing on a chaotic pile of rubble and saying I don't trust this building to fall down.

      Nothing changes as a result of what is happening here.

    21. Re:In Karachi? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No you're in the whack job territory for your continued thought process that the new proposal is somehow worse than the status quo.

    22. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That and your insistence on using lowercase for everything makes you a wackjob.

    23. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      yes, nothing changes. i didn't trust them before. i don't trust them now

      and i already said that in my last post

      do you need any other clarifications?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    24. Re:In Karachi? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      as if the new proposal is the only choice

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    25. Re:In Karachi? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      every tragedy or event in pakistan, where pakistanis can face their shortcomings, come to grips with it, and move forward: nope. instead loopy hilarious conspiracies that shifts blame to the west, to the jews, to india, to iran, etc. keeps them mired in poverty, backwardness, blind denial, strife, and stupidity. every problem in pakistan is never the fault of pakistanis, it's all due to plots and secret cabals and manipulations from abroad. fucking ignorant bullsit

      You see this from a lot of Middle Eastern countries. And African countries. And sometimes from the West, but that's a lot harder to pull off.

      It happens because the leadership actively encourages it, because it's one of the time-tested, traditional, honored ways to rally the citizenry of the country with you -- tell them they're under attack from outsiders.

    26. Re:In Karachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A hallmark of a civilized man is knowing how to speak to barbarians such that they understand.

  6. Who? by penguinoid · · Score: 0

    Of all places to locate a nuclear reactor, they argue, who could possibly make a case for this one

    Presumably, the engineers who considered the location and decided it would be safe. Did they make a mistake? Who cares -- journalism!!!

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Who? by loufoque · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, for that kind of decision political and economical factors are more important than technical ones.

  7. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    He had one cosy relationship with the Bushes too.

    Are the Bushes terrorist aiders too, or is the mere acceptance of an extremely wealthy family and their members by political leaders merely one of the benefits of multi-billionaire status?

  8. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Pakistan governement knew thus and wanted him to get a break

    There is no real government in Pakistan . The army makes the important decisions . They can take over the parliament any time of the day . And the pakistani army is infested with islamic extremeist officers who have close links with all the other islamic jolly fellas

  9. I've heard about Karachi before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is it the town that was featured in COD4?

  10. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hmm. Must be some whacko definition of "you're wrong, you should end your life you so thick" where you say I was right, the Bushes WERE big pals with the BinLaden family because they had billions of dollars, but that doesn't count BECAUSE IT WAS OIL MONEY.

    Quite how oil money means it's not actually money remains a mystery to humanity, though it's obviously well understood in whatever species you occupy...

  11. pakistani military is known for professionalism by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but some of their loyalties are divided, and in secret

    and with so much sectarian hatred, political instability, and poverty in that country, i fear that the most probable scenario for a purposeful nuclear attack in this world (so not accidental, probably plant sabotage) will be in pakistan

    i don't think the west has anything to fear. i think india does somewhat. but i think pakistanis have the most to fear by far

    there is a lot of bloodlust over there. and not the random yahoo kind, but the organized sectarian kind

    i fear for you pakistan

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:pakistani military is known for professionalism by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      but some of their loyalties are divided, and in secret

      When Obama OKed Seal Team 6's takedown of Osama bin Laden, he didn't warn the Pakistani government or military that their airspace was being compromised by US helicopters. He knew they couldn't be trusted, and knew that there would be a diplomatic incident as a result. If you share information with the military or government, there's a decent chance it'll get leaked.

  12. When the U.S war machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is grasping for straws, this might be it. This could be what the U.S gov tries to use to launch its next illegal invasion and murder-spree, on Pakistan, a country the U.S gov has wanted to erase for a long time.

    1. Re:When the U.S war machine by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      Pakistan is the source of all the trouble in the region anyway, not seeing any downside to your imagined "erasing"

    2. Re:When the U.S war machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sort of like the U.S is the source of all trouble in other nearby regions. The world as a whole prefers that venue of erasal instead.

    3. Re:When the U.S war machine by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Pakistan is the source of all the trouble in the region anyway, not seeing any downside to your imagined "erasing"

      I'm not sure that Pakistan is worse than our other regional 'ally,' Saudi Arabia.
      The Saudi development of oil fields is one of the worst things to happen to the Middle East in the last century. It gave incredible amounts of wealth to the Wahhabis, a formerly obscure branch of Islam that is known for being puritanical and ultraconservative. Most Muslims, for instance, didn't mind respectful images of the Prophet Muhammad, or artwork, or whatnot. It's the Wahhabis that forbid all that, the Wahhabis that promote the mandatory burka, it's the Wahhabis that promote factional warfare between Shias and Sunnis.

      Wahhibism used to be fairly obscure until the 1970s, when it experienced explosive growth with the oil boom. Every since, an amazing amount of money has been spent promoting the ultra-orthodox Islamic interpretation world-wide.

      So yeah. I'm not happy with Pakistan, but they're a sight better than the Saudis.

  13. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes

  14. Bin Laden, Bushes, money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bin Laden was a CIA asset while fighting to eject the Soviets from Afghanistan.

    Bin Laden, as one of 50+ children of the owner of a major Saudi construction firm that profited all through the oil expansion there, was strongly favored in inheriting a disproportionate amount from his father and ended up with over $300 million as a result. Much of this was expended building clinics and schools in the Afghan hinterland. The students of these madrassas were called Taliban, Pashto for "the students".

    During the fight to eject the Soviets, Bin Laden was an ally under the usual terms of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". However, once the common enemy is dispatched by two allies-of-convenience, a power vacuum is created in the formerly disputed territory and was filled by Bin Laden and his allies, in part because as major combatants they are best poised, trained and equipped to take advantage of the chaos left by the withdrawal of an occupation force.

    So even if Bin Laden was an ally during the Eighties, he was no longer a friend in the Nineties because we had no common enemy. To try to suggest that he was our ally is comparable to saying that the Soviets as our allies in WW II continued to be our allies throughout the Cold War.

    After a victory against a common foe, the enemy of your enemy is no longer your friend and quite often does become your enemy.

  15. A perfect place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...or maybe it's the perfect place to build such thing .... mouhahahahaha!

  16. Don't worry by mdsolar · · Score: 1, Insightful

    China is building this plant and China has never had a nuclear accident. It has to be safe.

  17. Re:terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't believe you. I don't belive anything Netanyahu hasn't told me is true.

  18. Karachi already has nuclear reactor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    There has already been a nuclear reactor plant in Pakistan Karachi since the 1972, supplied by the Canadian Gov; it's called the KANUPP-I and it's still in operation, but only generating 85MW of power (max power = 140MW), while the new reactor will generate up to 1000MW.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachi_Nuclear_Power_Complex#KANUPP-I

  19. Re:But but but by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Informative

    It is safe. But just like a lot of other safe thing, you have to be somewhat inteligent in using it. It is still not a good idea to run with safety scissors just like its not a good idea to walk around the shady parts of nyc showing everyone you pass a wad of cash while asking them where you can find some crack cocaine.

  20. Re:terrorist? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

    Pakistan hates the terrorists living there as much as anyone else, they just can't get rid of them. To be fair, either could the US when it tried to get them out of Afghanistan.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  21. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bin Laden died non-violently of kidney failure in December 2001.

  22. Re:terrorist? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Poor A/C, what could possibly go wrong in state that asks the question, "Who murdered that nice old man Usama Bin Laden?"

  23. Re: terrorist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Osama Bin Laden didn't blow up the WTC. IF you believe the official reports it was a bunch of Saudi's nationals. Did we go in and blow up Saudi Arabia. Nooo. We went and blew up Afghanistan and Iraq using money loaned to us from China. For those who do not know Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC.

    Knowing this, I automatically hold any lame brained conspiracy theory I read on the net with a much higher regard than I hold the official reports from CNN and Fox. Mainly because the mainstream news makes no fucking sense and Is totally insane. Noone thinks so because we have been bombarded with insanity soo long that it seems normal. If you take a step back and get the 1000 yard view, you realize the lunatics have a more coherent world outlook than the people running the asylum.

    I'm going to shoot myself now.

  24. Re:But but but by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    It is safe. But just like a lot of other safe thing, you have to be somewhat inteligent in using it. It is still not a good idea to run with safety scissors just like its not a good idea to walk around the shady parts of nyc showing everyone you pass a wad of cash while asking them where you can find some crack cocaine.

    "Nuclear power - not as dangerous as being a crack addict."

    Cool bumper sticker.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  25. ACP1000s? Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean, come on people, are we seriously still dealing with PWR's here?

    Can someone please tell me WHY the fuck we are still dealing with old, 3rd generation, dirty fuel cycles, when we can have much better 4th generation fuel cycles that thwart nuclear proliferation and use a more more plentiful fuel (ie Thorium instead of Uranium)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor

    Foolish humans

  26. Re: terrorist? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Glad to see a mod on her toes in modding thearent trol!

    I would have modded it -1, Spelling, almost incoherent.

  27. Re: terrorist? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Osama Bin Laden didn't blow up the WTC. IF you believe the official reports it was a bunch of Saudi's nationals ...

    ... organized by, trained by, and paid by Osama bin Laden.
    But you're right that Saudi Arabia is not our friend.

  28. Re:terrorist? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    Pakistan is not a person. Some of the people living there hate the terrorists. Quite a few are terrorists themselves, esp. in Waziristan. Their government also has quite a few extremists, especially in ISI.