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US Asks Vietnam To Stop Russian Bomber Refueling Flights From Cam Ranh Air Base
HughPickens.com writes Reuters reports that the United States has asked Vietnam to stop letting Russia use its former US base at Cam Ranh Bay to refuel nuclear-capable bombers engaged in shows of strength over the Asia-Pacific region. General Vincent Brooks, commander of the U.S. Army in the Pacific, says the Russian bombers have conducted "provocative" flights, including around the U.S. Pacific Ocean territory of Guam, home to a major American air base. Brooks said the planes that circled Guam were refueled by Russian tankers flying from the strategic bay, which was transformed by the Americans during the Vietnam War into a massive air and naval base. Russia's Defense Ministry confirmed that the airport at Cam Ranh was first used for staging Il-78 tankers for aerial refueling of Tu-95MS bombers in January 2014. Asked about the Russian flights in the region, the State Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Washington respected Hanoi's right to enter agreements with other countries but added that "we have urged Vietnamese officials to ensure that Russia is not able to use its access to Cam Ranh Bay to conduct activities that could raise tensions in the region."
Cam Ranh is considered the finest deepwater shelter in Southeast Asia. North Vietnamese forces captured Cam Ranh Bay and all of its remaining facilities in 1975. Vietnam's dependence on Russia as the main source of military platforms, equipment, and armaments, has now put Hanoi in a difficult spot. Russia has pressed for special access to Cam Ranh Bay ever since it began delivering enhanced Kilo-class submarines to Vietnam. "Hanoi is invariably cautious and risk adverse in its relations with the major powers," says Carl Thayer. "The current issue of Russian tankers staging out of Cam Ranh pits Russia and China on one side and the United States on the other. There is no easy solution for Vietnam."
Cam Ranh is considered the finest deepwater shelter in Southeast Asia. North Vietnamese forces captured Cam Ranh Bay and all of its remaining facilities in 1975. Vietnam's dependence on Russia as the main source of military platforms, equipment, and armaments, has now put Hanoi in a difficult spot. Russia has pressed for special access to Cam Ranh Bay ever since it began delivering enhanced Kilo-class submarines to Vietnam. "Hanoi is invariably cautious and risk adverse in its relations with the major powers," says Carl Thayer. "The current issue of Russian tankers staging out of Cam Ranh pits Russia and China on one side and the United States on the other. There is no easy solution for Vietnam."
They're trapped between three fires...
They need to keep the Americans happy to get American diplomatic support to keep China from eating them.
They need to keep the Russians happy to get access to cheap arms and possibly whatever diplomatic pressure the Russians have these days.
And then they need to keep the chinese from salivating every time they look at them.
Given that the US and Russia are at odds again, it is a very difficult position to be in these days.
They can't give the Russians or the Americans everything they want because much of what they want is the Vietnamese to choose sides.
And if they don't keep their allies happy they look more vulnerable to the chinese.
Poor vietnam.
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That would work.
They present one side as "Russia and China", but really, China is in this for themslves. They're making good use of the western sanctions on Russia to enrich themselves, negotiating all of the detals with Russia that they've been wanting to negotiate for a long time at bargain-basement prices that previously Russia had been unwilling to do.
Vietnam, too, is in this for themselves. They want their military purchases from Russia, and they also want investment from America. Buying them off is almost certainly a possibility. The question then becomes however, can the US really afford to buy off everyone? It's about proportionality... if Russia can spend a couple tens of millions of dollars to make the US spend a billion, Russia wins. On the other hand, if the US can spend a billion dollars to cost Russia a billion, the US winds, because the US economy is so vastly larger than the Russian economy.
"Are you hungry? I haven't eaten since later this afternoon." -- Primer
I'm afraid of Russian nukes too but I fail to see how any one could do anything but laugh at us over this request given our military posturing.
We're upset that in the 21st century our status as an unchallenged international superpower is no longer valid. As a nation that relies on secret torture camps, extraordinary rendition, ubiquitous spying on all its citizens, and even their targeted assassination without trial or jury, we've really found ourselves in a pickle after two failed wars in the middle east that accidentally created a terror state in the process. We're incapable of maintaining a functioning government of our own, having forcibly shut down the largest economy in the world twice and lost two ratings grades with standard and poor. As a nation predicated on democracy, freedom, and liberty we're utterly incapable of peaceful foreign policy toward Iran, with the president working toward a diplomatic agreement while the congress works toward an israeli endorsed military strategy.
So if it seems like we're all for freedom and independence when it comes to our international interests, yet wholly opposed to them when it comes to Vietnams soverign military and international policy, it shouldnt come as too much of a surprise.
Good people go to bed earlier.
The Vietnamese will be likely to stop the flights.
Their current big international dispute is over their maritime boundaries with China. The CHinese claim almost the entire South China Sea on the basis of something called the "nine-dashed-line," and have a tendency to periodically engage in extreme brinksmanship with all their neighbors in the region, including Vietnam. They actually fought a war with the Chinese in '79. Which means if the Russian flights support China in any way the Vietnamese have every reason to stop them.
But they aren't involved, so we'll just have to put up with it like we do in Europe.
Either Vietnam lets all countries use its facilities as a simple business relationship or deems it a domestic military facility for the exclusive use of their forces. If it does allow other countries to use the facilities then there should be a clause that withdraws the facility should any country be engaging in a war and wish to use the base to re-fuel its combat aircraft.
...about the unarmed bobby who is pursuing a suspect, and yells, "Stop, or I shall have to yell Stop again!"
But yes, this is offtopic here, especially in comparison to some of the interesting ideas that never make the climb out of Firehose.
Vietnam is using Russia to balance China, their traditional enemy. Use the barbarians (non Vietnameese) to balance each other out has been used in Asia for millennia.
So we put the base in to fight the Vietnam war, lost, and now want to dictate its use?
Putin needs to get total victory in Ukraine. He doesn't need to actually absorb them literally but he does need to bring them into the Russian sphere of influence and break the western strategic ties in the region. If he doesn't, then his domestic political position collapses.
You have to keep in mind that prior to the invasion of Ukraine, his polling numbers in Russia were very low. Then he went to war and his numbers popped up.
If it goes on for too long and he doesn't come out of it looking like a winner then he'll probably suffer for it politically.
As to china, they have similar political problems brewing as well as mounting economic problems.
They've just recently sold their US bonds as well as many other assets. Their ability to pump money into their economy is coming to a close. And with that a sea change in china's economic position. And with that, changing political, diplomatic, and strategic relationships.
We are living in interesting times. ;)
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Seems the solution for Vietnam would be all to easy: Simply remind the US that you kicked their asses and took that base fair and square and that if they have a problem with it, they are free to come back over and have their "operation freedom" shoved up their ass all over again because they are allied with both Russia and China and the party raising most of the tensions in the "region" is the US who keeps demanding that the world do as it says or "else".
Did I miss the part where there was a war between Vietnam and China in the late 70's as a result of China's support for the Khmer Rouge's genocide?
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Have you been paying attention to the chinese economy at all? Or are you running on 100 percent pure bravado?
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I'd rather have ten years of American hostility(?) than a thousand years of the Chinese.
Sure there is... partner with the SINO/Russian alliance, that's what is growing in the near future not the US.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Or maybe they just realized it was a good time to do so. The USD is at a 12-year high against the Euro right now (the two are nearing parity), and a 5-year high against the British pound. The American economy has been on a major upswing in the last few years, outpacing the international community, so suggesting America's economy is in a position of weakness at the moment is outright false, suggesting the dollar is worthless is provably inaccurate, but suggesting stuff may go down soon could prove to be true. It remains to be seen. None of us know.
People voted for it. There's the firehose, I think, and there's a setting for anyone to see and vote on submitted but unapproved stories in their regular news feed.
You create a false narrative here. Putin's approval rating was steadily holding above 63% ever since he took office and shot up to 85% several times during his tenure for prolonged times, every time he was seen to defend Russian interests in the world. US or EU politicians usually don't have such good ratings. Here is an article with 2000-2013 chart.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ma...
Putin does not need "victory" in Ukraine. He has already achieved victory by standing up for Russia. On the contrary, nobody wants to take the mess that is Ukraine that Russia has actually supported for years by several billion dollar a year in cheap gas and by allowing over 3 million of Ukrainian men to work in Russia and send remittances home. And by buying their manufactured products as only country in the world, preserving the Ukrainian industry. If we isolate Ukraine from Russia we should be prepared to replace Russia in all three of these roles or Ukraine will be at it worse than before we got involved.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Multi-billion? Wow, you think countries like Vietnam are stupid enough to sell themselves cheap.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
IIUC, the value of the dollar is tied to the fact that it can be used to buy oil. That the USD is at a 12 year high may be due to the fact that the OPEC are selling oil in dollars at lower prices. How long do you expect this to continue? (If this analysis is correct, then the value of the $ is not primarily based on internal US production, and is out of our direct control. And this also explains our intense military involvement in the Persian Gulf area so that we have rather strong indirect control.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
USD is high against the EUR not because USD is strong, but because the European Central Bank is printing money like there is no tomorrow - for some very strange reason their current president is convinced that the Eurozone has a huge deflation problem.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
That's a contributing factor, and is largely responsible for the sudden spike in the last few days, but I pointed out the British pound as well to illustrate that it's strong in general, rather than just strong against the Euro due to the stuff happening in Europe right now.
But yes, you're quite correct that the USD came on strong against the Euro in the last few days because of that stuff. Even so, it was already gaining at a steady pace, and was set to reach parity sometime late this year. The changes in the last little bit just moved that time table forward a few months.
Even if your reading of history is accurate (hint: It's not) it's completely irrelevant. China ratified the Convention of the Law of the Sea. They gave up their "right" to claim the entirety of the South China Sea when they did that.
They undoubtedly have national security interests there, just as the United States does in the Gulf of Mexico, the difference is that the US doesn't lay claim to the entire Gulf. There's no need, we simply buy the fucking resources from the other states with claims, which is a course that China could pursue with equal success (she certainly has enough cash) if she didn't have a massive inferiority complex to overcome.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
And states that we never could have won.
Couldn't have won? The United States could have destroyed the entire fucking country a few hours after the President picked up the phone. Don't want to play the nuclear card? Fine, we could have simply engaged in a conventional war of attrition until they ran out of military age males. Even at a 1 to 1 exchange rate (hint: it was many times that) we eventually win. Don't confuse political realities with technical ones. The United States is a democracy, where public opinion shapes public policy. The policy may lag behind opinion but it is still shaped by it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Japan has no natural resources, a simple sanction will destroy them.
You'd do well not to underestimate island nations or to assume that you can defeat them by cutting off their trade. See "United Kingdom" and "Battle of the Atlantic" for further study.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Dude, learn some fucking international law.
In '47 there was a press release. China has never made a formal claim before any international legal body, or even bothered to explain precisely (as in which geographical coordinates) the line ends. The line is not connected, and even in the spots where there's actually as line the map is small enough (and the line wide enough) that it's like 5-10 miles wide.
If the "we owned it before you existed" legal standard was actually a legal standard maybe a half-dozen African states would have a legal right to exist. The others were all created by (and therefore owned) by various European Empires, and were therefore owned by Europe before they existed. The Americas south of the Rio Grande would be split between Spain and Portugal, north would be English. Austria-Hungary would have an extremely compelling legal case, to much of Eastern Europe, and the Turks could annex the Balkan peninsula up to (and including) the bits of Serbia not given back to the Habsburgs.
The only modern state which makes any claims based on something as tenuous as "600-year-old historical links" is Israel. I don't know if you'd noticed but in the Court of International law the only world leader who ever took their claim to Jerusalem even a little bit seriously was Dubya.
Hmmm... you have to be careful with Russian media:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/167...
His poll numbers were in decline and most analysts believe his actions are a crass political ploy to boost his poll numbers in Russia:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...
I can cite articles and conclusions from think tanks all over the world if you like. I read something from a Japanese source the other day that said the same thing.
This is how the governments of the world see this action.
And that US counter response is going to focus on Putin's support base.
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You're not a nerd, you don't even have a slashdot account. How would you know what news nerds want?
Get off the lawn, you're trespassing.
Knowledge is too nerdy for these cowards, they'll just whine and cry, whine and cry, whine and cry. They won't, can't, ever know it is their own fault. If they allowed themselves to discover the cause of the problem, they might have to implement a technical fix. That would be almost nerdy, and so they'd run away.
Good theory. It would have been a good place to start your investigation, but it not really valid an analysis.
I recommend actually looking at the details of the recent deal that China signed with Russia. Russia came to them for a deal, and the Chinese just took their existing energy deal, lowered the prices, and "agreed" to a contract locking in that discount for a number of years. That way the Russians get to put a big number on the size of the deal, and the Chinese didn't have to accept any cost to "help" Russia.
China wouldn't do anything to actually help Russia right now. They're on the same general negotiating team for most issues, so they're not calling them out, but China is very much against the sort of thing that Russia did in annexing Crimea. China is actually very diplomatically against the of moving borders, and allowing locals to "rebel" and move a border or create a new political unit. That's why to get a trade deal during sanctions, the "deal" was all discounts for China.
On the issue of Vietnam, lets remember that right after the US withdrew from Vietnam, they fought (and won) a border war with China. Including China in this current dispute is just a funny knee-jerk from media people who never watched The Fog of War. Vietnam also invaded Cambodia, kicked out the murderers, ended the atrocities... and then withdrew without stealing any land or resources. It is not at all obvious that Vietnam would want to move closer to Russia in this current dispute. That would isolate them diplomatically, where they're actually one of the more open and tolerant Communist regimes in the region. Like China, they maintain strong and ever-growing trade relations with the west.
Also lets remember, one of the reasons that Vietnam wanted the subs is to keep an eye on Chinese ships that threaten them over longstanding maritime border disputes. That, and the war they fought with China 30 years ago, are the reasons why they bought subs from Russia instead of China, even thought they use about the same tech.
My proposal, lets admit that Vietnam is just locals who like Communism and not part of some Red Tide, and then lets sell them some good older subs. In return, they'll deny Russia military access used to challenge anybody.
"China is in this for themslves. They're making good use of the western sanctions on Russia to enrich themselves, negotiating all of the detals with Russia that they've been wanting to negotiate for a long time at bargain-basement prices that previously Russia had been unwilling to do."
Spot on. There's little love lost between the two neighbours - they're on "cordial" terms, not "friendly" ones.
"It's about proportionality... if Russia can spend a couple tens of millions of dollars to make the US spend a billion, Russia wins"
If the US spends that in VIetnam then Vietnam wins - and quite frankly the USA is better off spending money on this kind of thing than wasting money dropping bombs on people (if you factor in all the costs and knock-on effects, it'd be cheaper and probably more effective in most cases to drop cash on places where the war on terrorism is happening than to blow people up. The collateral damage is steadily turning more and more people into venom-spitting enemies of the whole western world.). In the overall scheme of military things 1 billion is pocket change down the back of the sofa.
It's worth noting that russian economy is extremely weak, so forcing them to spend a few tens of millions more in a bunch of areas may be all that's needed to dissuade them from the dickwaving competition.
War innovates, peace expands markets. If all the russians have to offer is clapped out cold-war bombers then the best retort is to outbid 'em for the bases they use.
"Right after the US withdrew from Vietnam, they fought (and won) a border war with China."
Viet/Chinese emnity goes back a lot further than you might think: The Vietnamese reputedly still haven't gotten around to forgiving China for stripping their forests in order to build Admiral Zheng He's fleet.
The Vietnamese would happily welcome american money as much as russian money, as long as it doesn't come with governance strings attached - the Vietnam war was fundamentally a war of independence from French Colonial rule after all.
As for "liking" or "not liking" communism - the average vietnamese citizen has no choice in the matter and in another 40-50 years there won't be enough of the old guard left to keep the pretence up.
Putin does need victory because he got people all riled up through his propaganda machine. For over a year now, they've been feeding the public stories about "Ukrainian Nazi atrocities" etc. If he now abandons Donbass, then that same propaganda will turn against him - after all, it would mean that he abandoned the region to those same Nazis he was screaming bloody murder about, and how's that not sign of a weak and cowardly leader?
The definition of "victory" though is fuzzy here. If the separatists can hold the territories they control today for a couple more years, that could be twisted into a "victory".
US interest rates only go up in order to intentionally slow down growth to prevent an over-heated economy and a boom/bust cycle.
I'm sorry, I forgot forbes.com is a Russian organization. Let me apologize here deeply.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Forbes specifically has been caught using Russian state media for information like this repeatedly. So, congrats on finding a way to cite russian state media by proxy.
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I got used to the fact that people like you will say absolutely anything that suits them in an argument, regardless of the veracity or the ability to actually source their claims.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Well, the problem with your position is that there is contradictory information. And the forbes information that you're standing behind is 100 percent in line with the Russian state media.
So do you want to actually talk about this like adults or is childish insults where you want to end this?
Your choice.
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how is that an insult? Sam was an every man trapped in an insane world.
You're saying I'm an everyman? This is an insult to you?
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So your argument is that the protagonist in the story is a small minded coward? Exactly how?
You say he chose that life but he was living in an extremely repressive society. He didn't have freedom unless he wanted be a rogue heating repair technician or whatever the fuck Robert was doing.
And in any case, none of that has anything contextually to do with our discussion. You're implying that my requirement that you be RATIONAL is a sign that I am an unwitting pawn of some repressive officious super state?
Really? When did being rational be the same thing as a fascist? ... Just insert ... I don't know what to tell you, sport. Expecting someone to be rational in a discussion is not an imposition on you. You should just do that. How can you possibly have a rational thought if your whole mind is little more than a Gordian knot of fallacies?
You can't. You're basically willfully insane if you don't make any effort to make any kind of logical sense.
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In what way am I a coward? Substantiate that position or it is void.
In what way am I following the herd? Substantiate that position or it is void.
You claim I "could be evil"... really? Couldn't anyone? Anyway, this comment is too vague to be meaningful.
As to being "useful to my empire"... were you not the same idiot that said he'd punch me for suggesting he pissed on the flag? That would be you claiming to be a patriot and then you try to use being "useful" to my society as an insult?
Forgive me, it is very hard to unpack the stupid from your comments. I could have you confused with some other half wit. You're like fucking mosquitoes in a swamp at this point.
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Actually it isn't. Unlike you, I justified my positions. I didn't just make blank statements but instead I have been making falsifiable arguments.
And when I have done this you've run away from any attempt to either confront my positions or make your own using falsifiable logic.
At best you're ignorant. At worst you're some sort of degenerate.
I can't tell which... Anyway... nothing profitable to be gained from the likes of you. We're done. You can fuck off at any time.
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Nope, that's the virtue of actually backing up your statements. Things stop being opinions.
You think everything is always an opinion so you're going to try to just contradict me endlessly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I'm more sophisticated then you though, so I am capable of more than that.
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So you say but you won't tell me what I lied about.
I have challenged you repeatedly to just EXPLAIN what you meant.
You have refused and instead want to get vague with insults. The reason being that if you tell me what you were talking about I can start to take it apart logically... and your argument won't survive that because you know YOU are the one that is lying.
I have no fear of the truth or engaging in debate because I don't lie or mislead. That isn't how I win.
I win by being right, by being smarter than you, and by knowing how to prove it.
When you have all those things, as I have them... one does not need to lie.
Your consistent reliance on such is merely an admission that you're an idiot and you know it.
What I guess you're too stupid to grasp is that I KNOW IT AS WELL. It is quite obvious. Your pathetic attempts to deceive me are a waste of time. You're not very good at this and everything you've done is quite transparent.
It is just too easy. So by all means, throw out another stupid insult... all you're doing is further confessing your weakness.
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Your incompetence is obvious. I frankly pity your ignorance and lack of character.
I wish you enlightenment and peace.
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