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Stanford Study Credits Lack of Non-Competes For Silicon Valley's Success

HughPickens.com writes Natalie Kitroeff writes at Bloomberg that a new study says the secret to Silicon Valley's triumph as the global capital of innovation may lie in a quirk of California's employment law that prohibits the legal enforcement of non-compete clauses. Unlike most states, California prohibits enforcement of non-compete clauses that force people who leave jobs to wait for a predetermined period before taking positions at rival companies. That puts California in the ideal position to rob other regions of their most prized inventors, "Policymakers who sanction the use of non-competes could be inadvertently creating regional disadvantage as far as retention of knowledge workers is concerned," wrote the authors of the study "Regional disadvantage? Employee non-compete agreements and brain drain" (PDF). "Regions that choose to enforce employee non-compete agreements may therefore be subjecting themselves to a domestic brain drain not unlike that described in the literature on international emigration out of less developed countries."

The study, which looked at the behavior of people who had registered at least two patents from 1975 to 2005, focused on Michigan, which in 1985 reversed its longstanding prohibition of non-compete agreements. The authors found that after Michigan changed the rules, the rate of emigration among inventors was twice as a high as it was in states where non-competes remained illegal. Even worse for Michigan, its most talented inventors were also the most likely to flee. "Firms are going to be willing to relocate someone who is really good, as opposed to someone who is average," says Lee Fleming. For the inventors, it makes sense to take a risk on a place such as California, where they have more freedom. "If the job they relocate for doesn't work out, then they can walk across the street because there are no non-competes."

114 comments

  1. Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Baby+Duck · · Score: 5, Informative

    And then there's those Steve Jobs emails that revealed major players in Silicon Valley created their own de facto non-compete policies with each other. The study is incomplete without examining intra-California career stifling.

    --

    "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

    1. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Yup.
      Non compete agreements are blatantly unconstitutional, but they exist everywhere, including in California. In California, they just collude behind closed doors instead of out in the open.

    2. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irrelevant to the study. People came to the state because of the laws, they didn't know about the secret non-compete and thought they could leave, even if it was harder than they thought.

    3. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      The study is incomplete without examining intra-California career stifling.

      Does it really matter in this case?

      Non-competes in other states are enforced by the government, and therefore are much more widespread and effective than a criminal conspiracy of some of the big players.

    4. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're more than constitutional.

      In fact, the constitution explicitly prohibits states from "impairing the obligations of contracts."

      Whether they're morally right or wrong is another matter.

      What the story seems to suggest is that inventors are paranoid about losing their invention, IP, or ideas to those they work together with while turning their idea into a business.

      Facebook might be a good example of what happens when one has an idea that is lost to a sharp programmer who then becomes a billionaire.

      After witnessing that, anyone building a business is of course going to make employees sign non-competes.

    5. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Facebook was one of many web sites with exactly the same purpose and implementation.

      Some market segments are just crap shoots. Who gets critical mass. Sure looked like MySpace for a while, Facebook can go away, just as fast.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      Everyone uses Facebook as the example, it is the new thing still, remember MySpace, FB's explosion isn't new. Social media sites come and go, the inventors of said sites ride the wave until it peters out then onto the next unless they're a one hit wonder.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    7. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Libertarian crank theory #44732: Contract law trumps all!

      Hate pesky worker freedoms? Human rights? Basic human dignity? The laws of physics?

      Don't worry! Sign a contract! Contracts are magical documents that can nullify even the most annoying and persistent impediments that get in the way of you god given right to make money.

      Simply apply your favorite form of corrosion or obfuscation to get that signature and you're gold!

    8. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      And then there's those Steve Jobs emails that revealed major players in Silicon Valley created their own de facto non-compete policies with each other. The study is incomplete without examining intra-California career stifling.

      That only affected "pull" style recruitments - where a company recruits from another company.

      You as an employee were completely free to apply for a position at the other company. If you worked at Apple and wanted to go to Google, you submitted your resume to Google. If Google liked you, you interviewed and got hired.

      What Google couldn't do is go to an Apple employee and make them an immediate offer.

      And there are PLENTY of ways around this - including the use of mutual friends to say "Please apply for this job" - the only thing Google would want is to make sure it is YOU that made the first move.

      Which is why the scope of it is extremely limited - if people want you, you know it and are free to apply. And if you networked properly, you would hear about the opportunity through your grapevine with no official documentation saying it really was Google poaching you in the end. All it takes is a few phone calls and you're in.

      How do I know? I was part of this - I knew a company wanted me, and someone I knew at that company basically said "Phone (xxx) 555-5555". Made the call and they said they were posting a job that I should apply for (basically it was tailored for me). It was a public posting, so anyone could apply, but really it was my job to lose. And the only official documentation that existed would be my accessing the public jobs site.

      All perfectly legit. Sort of a loophole, but none of the agreements said you couldn't work there, just they won't pull you.

      And really, in the end, if you're being pulled, it's because you know someone there. Google will not call up random Apple employees offering them a job - they'd consult with employees who worked at Apple to pick specific employees.

      Even at a job fair - if Apple employees walked past the Google booth, as long as it was on the up and up (Apple employees dropped off their resumes along with everyone else), it was fine.

      If you were wanted, you knew. If you weren't, you made sure to keep in touch to build a grapevine.

    9. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by bouldin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In my state (Georgia), non-compete contracts were specifically banned in the constitution until the Republicans snuck through a constitutional amendment with some amazingly blatant doublespeak.

      The ballot read:

      Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended so as to make Georgia more economically competitive by authorizing legislation to uphold reasonable competitive agreements?

      Unfortunately, the state is full of enough weak-minded sheep that the amendment won 2:1.

    10. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by xevioso · · Score: 1

      yes, so what''s your point?

    11. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by BradMajors · · Score: 2

      Nope.

      * I have contacted some companies directly and I have been explicitly told my someone at that company that they can not hire me because my current company would retaliate against them.
      * I have seem copies of contracts where it explicitly stated that the two countries agreed not to hire each other's employees.

    12. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      I have seem copies of contracts where it explicitly stated that the two countries agreed not to hire each other's employees.

      I assume you meant "companies", not "countries", but even this seems really strange to me, at least as an American - under our antitrust laws, they'd have to be insane to put something like that into writing.

    13. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Libertarian crank theory #44732: Contract law trumps all!

      Don't be an ass. It is illegal to MAKE a contract that discriminates in certain ways, breaks certain laws, etc.

      Nobody I know thinks "contract law trumps all". You don't know much about Libertarians, do you?

      The Libertarian philosophy says that in an ideal world, such laws would not be necessary. But only an idiot thinks we currently live in an ideal world.

    14. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by chihowa · · Score: 2

      That's a fucked up way of amending a constitution anyway. A ballot to amend a constitution should contain the actual text that will be amended to the constitution. If the purported reasoning for the amendment (eg, to make Georgia more economically competitive) is going to be on the ballot, then different interpretations should be included from opposing groups.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    15. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      Surely such an amendment would be unconstitutional, in that the wording mislead the people...?

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    16. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      Surely such an amendment would be unconstitutional, in that the wording mislead the people...?

      Which constitution explicitly bans misleading the people?

    17. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by bwcbwc · · Score: 2

      Yeah, even Florida requires the actual text of the proposed amendment to be put on the ballot.

      It's a sad reflection on society that "right to work" laws and non-compete contracts are touted as engines to grow the economy, while things like a living minimum wage are denigrated as class warfare. When your middle class is disappearing, you actually get more economic bang for the buck when the money goes to consumers rather than investors. The fact that consumers have more money to spend creates true investment opportunities due to increases in demand. Giving incentives to investors when business opportunities are limited by lack of demand just throws money at get-rich-quick schemes.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    18. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I assume you meant "companies", not "countries", but even this seems really strange to me, at least as an American - under our antitrust laws, they'd have to be insane to put something like that into writing.

      That sure stopped Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm, and eBay from discussing and agreeing to do this in a tangible medium. All they had to put up with is a civil lawsuit.

    19. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's nothing another carefully worded amendment wont fix.

    20. Re:Steve Jobs is the Monkeywrench by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the voter ID amendment in Minnesota was deliberately deceptive on the ballot. Fortunately, it failed (it would have caused a lot of problems with absentee voting, for example, and absentee voting was not mentioned on the ballot).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. Or maybe it's because by xevioso · · Score: 1

    ...it innovates better than almost any place else, and failure is (sometimes) OK.

    http://www.scientificamerican....

    It has very little to do with employees not being able to go anywhere else...many of the people who work there come in from other countries where this isn't even an issue.

    1. Re:Or maybe it's because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They come but then they never leave.

    2. Re:Or maybe it's because by aitikin · · Score: 1

      The implication (at least that I get) is that people who are creative and inventive thinkers will immigrate to California because (at least in their eyes) if it doesn't work out, they can just quit and find another job because there's no non-compete clause. I know when I signed my contract for my current position, I was very wary of the fact that there was a non-compete clause, but then I realized what any first year law student would in looking at my job and the non-compete, it's completely unenforceable.

      --
      "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    3. Re:Or maybe it's because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your saying the land magically makes people inovate better...?

    4. Re:Or maybe it's because by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      ...it innovates better than almost any place else

      Of course. But why does it innovate better? One reason is the employee churn and cross pollination of ideas. Employees don't feel locked-in, and can go where they are most productive. Companies can easily lose employees if they don't treat them like valuable assets, but they can also easily poach them from others. I live and work in Silicon Valley. There are a lot of things that California does wrong, but on this issue, they've got it right. Free and open competition is a good thing, with ideas, as with almost anything else.

    5. Re:Or maybe it's because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They come but then they never leave.

      Welcome to the Hotel California...

    6. Re: Or maybe it's because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, you mean making one sided agreements forced by a party with strong bargaining position onto parties with little bargaining position actually benefits society and the economy? Regulations work when they're intended to benefit and protect actual people?

      Oh, the libertarian horror! They've been proven wrong yet again. Nothing new of course, but remarkable anyway.

    7. Re:Or maybe it's because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW, a common interpretation of Hotel California is that it's musing about living the high-life in California (which apparently entails marrying a "California" wife and getting serial divorces)...

      "You can checkout any time you want" kinda means commit suicide about it...
      "but you can never leave" kinda means you can never leave the marriage/divorce/money cycle...

      I guess if you equate serial-marriages with working for serial California startup companies, maybe there's an analogy there...

      However, I'm not sure they have no-competes agreements on marriages anywhere so California isn't unique in that regard, and I don't think people generally check-out to avoid that cycle (as opposed to just pack up and leave) so that's where the analogy falls apart...

    8. Re: Or maybe it's because by vanye · · Score: 2

      Yes its a two edged sword - you can leave, but you can also be fired for no reason.

      I know prefer to work in a free environment than an English manufacturing company where the union was in control....

      But that's me... others maybe are lazy/stupid and prefer to work somewhere that has no risks and no gains and expect others to look after them...

    9. Re:Or maybe it's because by superwiz · · Score: 1

      No, that's up north in the Emerald City.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    10. Re: Or maybe it's because by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      I know prefer to work in a free environment than an English manufacturing company where the union was in control....

      ...which dates you even more accurately than radioactive carbon isotope decay.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    11. Re: Or maybe it's because by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I think you're mixing up NDAs with "at will" states, in which employment can bet terminated by either side with no reason (there's a list of illegal reasons, but typically no reason will be given). NDAs can be banned or allowed without paying attention to "at will" status. ("Right to work", which means an employee cannot be required to join a union, are something else entirely and frequently confused)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  3. Can't comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I can't provide any substantial comments on this article for another 4 months.

    1. Re:Can't comment by TWX · · Score: 3, Funny

      What will your excuse be after that?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  4. Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

    Banning enforcement of certain aspects of a contract may be useful. But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts, and I'm not at all sure, the utility ought to outweigh the liberty.

    In fact, I'm quite sure of the opposite...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Utility vs. freedom by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Great. Then you don't mind if I take a hit out on your life? I mean, its just a contract, the fact its to kill someone doesn't outweigh my liberty to enter into it, does it?

      Congratulations, you've just said the stupidest thing I've ever read on the internet. That includes "Where does babby come from".

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Utility vs. freedom by knightghost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is no freedom when the contract is de-facto mandatory for employment.

    3. Re:Utility vs. freedom by taustin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's only freedom if both parties are equal in the negotiations. That is rarely the case in employment contracts. Since a free market is, almost inherently, impossible, it is a choice between being regulated by the more powerful of the two parties, or by an outside third party.

      Only one side of the contract would agree with you.

    4. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was a pretty long-winded way of saying you are a libertarian. Good for you, but what does that have to do with the article?

    5. Re:Utility vs. freedom by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Banning enforcement of certain aspects of a contract may be useful. But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts, and I'm not at all sure, the utility ought to outweigh the liberty.

      In fact, I'm quite sure of the opposite...

      It seems to me that banning non-competes increases both utility and liberty.

      For the utility it seems obvious, non-competes are a tragedy of the commons. The talent pool is a common resource for companies and they all benefit from the largest and most talented pool, ie one without non-competes. But on an individual level a company benefits from having a non-compete since employees have a more difficult time leaving, so the entire talent pool suffers.

      As for the freedom level I find the argument unconvincing. The only reason employees accept them is because they effectively have no choice since companies make it the standard. You're effectively talking about someone trading away a right for a very dubious personal benefit (how does a non-compete make you a better employee?) and a societal harm. If there's ever a cause for banning a class of contracts than non-competes would seem to qualify.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    6. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 0

      Then you don't mind if I take a hit out on your life? I mean, its just a contract, the fact its to kill someone doesn't outweigh my liberty to enter into it, does it?

      Your analogy "isn't even wrong".You never had the liberty to kill me, no matter what contract you may have entered into with someone else.

      On the other hand, you do have the liberty to work for anyone, who'd want you (until they read the above stupid post of yours, of course). You can choose to sign that liberty away in exchange for employment (or more favorable terms of employment).

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So what about outright slavery and exactly where do you draw the line? You think you have an inalienable right to life that cannot be bargained away by anyone, yet don't think you have an inalienable right to earn a livelihood, apparently, and fail to explain why not. The fact that we are still deciding through our political process where to draw that line might make it a sort of a gray area, but getting it right isn't as easy as you seem to think. Reality isn't black and white and any time ideology trumps common sense you can expect all sorts of unintended bad consequences. The fact is employers have quite an unfair advantage over employees when it comes to entering into employment contracts because the real world is not an idealized economics thought experiment. It is entirely reasonable to impose regulations that limit the abuses that employers can engage in.

    8. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other other hand, you can't sell yourself into slavery. One can of course argue that why shouldn't people be able to sell themselves into slavery, but there's a pretty good historical record of why that just ends up being abused.

      Non-competes were being used abusively, so they were outlawed. Yes, this is indeed why we can't have nice things. Deal with it.

    9. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Government refuses to act, market improves, libertarians offended by government's decision not to act.

    10. Re:Utility vs. freedom by taustin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you don't like the terms offered — walk away.

      And find out that everyone else has agreed (secretly) to require the same terms. "Agree to our terms, or go hungry" is not a free market.

    11. Re:Utility vs. freedom by ralphsiegler · · Score: 1

      Your argument is flawed, people are compelled to work lest they starve or lose their place of residence or become unable to provide for children, and thus may have no choice but to accept employment terms they'd rather not.

    12. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 1

      You're a troll and an idiot.

      They are talking about bans on NONCOMPETE contracts. Competition is supposed to be the driving force that makes capitalism work.

      If you would take off your kindergarten thinking cap and act like a real adult, you would see that some regulation is necessary to keep everything free.

    13. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 2

      It's only freedom if both parties are equal in the negotiations. That is rarely the case in employment contracts.

      Both parties enter into the agreement willingly, without either side being compelled -- that's all, that matters.

      No, jackass, it's a contract of adhesion.

    14. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 1

      Banning enforcement of certain aspects of a contract may be useful. But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts, and I'm not at all sure, the utility ought to outweigh the liberty.

      As for the freedom level I find the argument unconvincing.

      mi does not actually make arguments. In this case, Stanford academics made the argument that the utility DOES outweigh the liberty, and supplied evidence worthy of peer review.

      mi just waves his hands and spouts simpleminded diarrhea, pretending to have some cohesive philosophy.

    15. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banning enforcement of certain aspects of a contract may be useful. But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts, and I'm not at all sure, the utility ought to outweigh the liberty.

      Freedom to contract only exists when, for both parties, not entering into the contract is a viable option. With employment contracts, that freedom is not universal. That's why peonage and indentured servitude exist when there is no employment law to prevent it.

      Before you take logical liberties with your arguments, first make sure you're truly talking about a freedom held by the population as a whole, not just a privilege enjoyed by a subset. It will make you sound a little more like John Locke and a little less like Ayn Rand.

    16. Re:Utility vs. freedom by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      That's a crappy analogy - a better question to ask is whether he'd be okay with a contract that required the employee to donate a kidney to the company upon leaving.

    17. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      You are still free to sign the contract. The state just makes it so that you are free to ignore the contract you have signed. Bam. Even more freedom.

    18. Re:Utility vs. freedom by crioca · · Score: 1

      Banning enforcement of certain aspects of a contract may be useful. But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts

      You’re actually making the argument that the state declining to exert power over its citizens is actually a loss of freedom? That’s moronic.

    19. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the parent meant to say was that perfect competition is impossible, and hence all markets are not-free to some degree. Depending on your definition of "free market" it's fair to say that they don't exist. Similarly, non-coercion is necessary but not sufficient for fair contracts, and your ignorance of that is embarrassing even for a libertarian.

    20. Re:Utility vs. freedom by pspahn · · Score: 1

      Is it?

      The last two times I was given a non-compete to sign (Colorado), I stood up and addressed the issues I saw with it.

      The first one was reviewed by a co-worker's legal buddy. There was a lot of boilerplate, but there were also certain components that were totally unenforceable and unreasonable. A couple people signed it, but the majority of us refused. What is the employer going to do, fire everyone?

      The last one was a completely reasonable non-compete. In my case, my work is fairly niche, and the number of people in Denver that are skilled is very few. If we decide to part ways, it could force me to either move or take up a new niche for the next 18 months or whatever. That part isn't so great as I don't want to move or necessarily take up a new niche. I spoke to the employer and we were both happy to agree to amend the contract to nullify the nastiest teeth.

      Just because you are given a non-compete clause to sign doesn't mean you aren't allowed to discuss it in detail with your employer. They certainly should have the right to protect their business, and as an employee you understand that. You certainly should have the right to continue working after parting ways, and an employer will understand that.

      If you talk to them about it, I'm sure you'll be surprised at the amount of flexibility they are willing to give.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    21. Re: Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lays not forget that the fact that contracts are enforceable throufh the state courts is a major government intervention. In a truly free market your only loss if you violated a contract would be loss of trust, making it more costly for you to bargain with others.

      Banning non-competes is just another aspect of the long history of Anglo-American law disfavoring restraints on commerce, both public and private. This bias has worked out very well.

    22. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      A non-compete contract is more akin to a contract that says if you quit, you have to give us back your bonus or a prenumpt agreement.

      So how about an obligation to commit suicide after the employment contract ends? That would be the ultimate form of non-compete.

      I would be curious what the penalty is for a non-compete.

      It's usually a ridiculous amount of money. Of course, if the skills of the employee in question are in really high demand, the new employer might just consider to fork over defined penalty to the new employee so he can pay off his former employer.

      Basically, I would be in favor of specific penalties for non-compete

      Great. "The penalty for violating the non-compete clause is $537 million payable in small bills."

      Specific enough?

    23. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      But it deprives the parties of the freedom to meaningfully enter into such contracts,

      Just word it differently. "For up to x months after the end of the employment contract, employer will pay employee x% of their last salary if they are not working in field Y".

      Basically, a "carrot" noncompete instead of a "stick" noncompete.

      But of course employers wouldn't want to pay for having their business model protected.

    24. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Basically, I would be in favor of specific penalties for non-compete

      Great. "The penalty for violating the non-compete clause is $537 million payable in small bills."

      Specific enough?

      Great. "The penalty for violating the non-compete clause is $537 million payable in small bills."
      Specific enough?

      This is exactly why there should be a specific amount.
      There is no way I would sign something like that and no sane person should either.
      If it went to court, no sane judge should allow it to stand and the person should be
      able to claim they signed it under duress as there is no other logical reason someone
      would sign something like that.

    25. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      If it went to court, no sane judge should allow it to stand and the person should be able to claim they signed it under duress as there is no other logical reason someone would sign something like that.

      Why, if you don't intend to break the contract, you'll never have to pay the $537M. So a sane person with no intention to break the contract could sign it without voiding their sanity certificate.

      Heck, if an employer agrees to pay me $1M/month, I'll gladly live with a two-year noncompete clause and a $537M fine for breaking it. Where do I sign?

    26. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of the movie Paycheck: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt03...
      The ultimate non-compete because you don't remember what you did.

    27. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 2

      And find out that everyone else has agreed (secretly) to require the same terms.

      Citation needed.

      "Agree to our terms, or go hungry" is not a free market.

      Why not? Nobody owes you anything. If you wish other people to pay you, you have to agree to those people's terms.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    28. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

      people are compelled to work lest they starve or lose their place of residence or become unable to provide for children, and thus may have no choice but to accept employment terms they'd rather not.

      Most people would not accept any employment, if it was not for prospect of starvation and those other problems you listed.

      So long as we agree, that being "compelled to work" for a living is acceptable, why can't the employers ask for anything from would-be employees?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    29. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

      No, jackass, it's a contract of adhesion.

      (Khm, an up-moded ad-hominem — I must be deep into a hostile territory...)

      Well, the "contract of adhesion", according to your own link, is one characterized by:

      • nature of the assent
      • the possibility of unfair surprise,
      • lack of notice,
      • unequal bargaining power,
      • substantive unfairness

      So long as we are talking about college-educated engineers, rather than illiterate farmers "signing" away their land with a thumb-print in exchange for a sack of grain, I don't believe any of the above-listed characteristics apply. In other words, your statement — which you posted without any substantiation as if it were self-evident — is, in fact, completely wrong.

      Your link also, interestingly, leaves the determination of whether a particular contract (or a provision thereof) should be invalidated as "adhesive" to the Judiciary, rather than the Legislature as TFA suggests...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    30. Re:Utility vs. freedom by ralphsiegler · · Score: 1

      Actually, I find being compelled to work stressful, aggravating and heavily interferes with time for people and things very important to me. When I was young children had to recover from the painful diseases chicken pox and measles as there was no vaccine, the alternative was death. Such is employment. Anyway, being compelled with terrible conditions that all employers conspire to adopt, with no alternative available in a large region, is a bad thing. One can glibly say "oh just move then", but that is very expensive and disruptive for say those with families, even assuming a job in a remote place can be landed.

    31. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

      Most people would not accept any employment, if it was not for prospect of starvation and those other problems you listed.

      Actually, I find being compelled to work stressful, aggravating and heavily interferes with time for people and things very important to me.

      Ok, so you are one of those people, who resent having to work for a living — on any terms — yourself. Why, then, are you arguing against the finer points in (some) employment contracts, instead of arguing against the gross injustice of being compelled (by your own circumstances) to work at all?

      terrible conditions that all employers conspire to adopt

      Citations needed.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    32. Re:Utility vs. freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yesa Masta, can I shine yo shoes for ya?

      I knoes I have tried to get work doin other stuf but days all dun sed dis was all I could do sir......

      Sorry, had to say it, this guy's logic is so ass backwards and self serving using the same logic used to oppress others throughout history. This is literally all I could think when I read that crap.

    33. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 1

      No, jackass, it's a contract of adhesion.

      (Khm, an up-moded ad-hominem -- I must be deep into a hostile territory...)

      There was no ad-hominem argument, it was an accusation. You talk like a jackass, so I called you a jackass. You are a jackass.

      Well, the "contract of adhesion", according to your own link, is one characterized by:

      Learn to read. The article said those items you listed factor in to court decisions. The definition was the first paragraph.

      The first sentence of the definition was:

      A standard form contract drafted by one party (usually a business with stronger bargaining power) and signed by the weaker party (usually a consumer in need of goods or services), who must adhere to the contract and therefore does not have the power to negotiate or modify the terms of the contract.

      Mandatory, non-negotiable employment contracts are adhesion contracts.

      You're exactly the kind of asshole who will argue that the sky is not blue, when it's plain as day. That's why people always mod your comments down, because you're a fucking idiot and a troll.

    34. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

      You are a jackass [...] You're [...] asshole [...] you're a fucking idiot and a troll

      Haters gonna hate.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    35. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 1

      Haters gonna hate.

      "Hater," in the sense you are using it, implies some kind of jealousy. Nobody is jealous of you.

    36. Re:Utility vs. freedom by mi · · Score: 1

      Bugger off, asshole. You can't hold an argument without calling an opponent names — so full of hate you are. And now you are going to talk about semantics? What a piece of useless watery shit, leaving stinky little puddles wherever you go, poisoning everything around and attracting nothing but excreta-eating insects.

      It is exactly your worthless kind, that's the reason we need the contract enforcement in the first place — because you've never made a sincere promise to anyone, or, even when you did, never felt bound by your word — what a quaint concept!

      When your dishonesty is put on display, even if it is just to you — nobody else here knows your little secrets nor how many ships you've jumped — you feel hurt and jealous of strangers, who seem more trustworthy. So you find excuses in the weaselese concepts like "adhesive contracts" carefully prepared for you by the previous generations of stinking little weasels like yourself with flies buzzing around them wherever they go.

      Please, don't hate.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    37. Re:Utility vs. freedom by bouldin · · Score: 1

      Don't change the subject. We were talking about what an idiot you are.

      Just in this thread, you've managed to:

      • 1. Completely misunderstand what an ad-hominem argument is.
      • 2. Fail to read a simple definition of adhesion contracts.
      • 3. Misuse the modern vernacular "hater".

      I'm not even addressing your childish Ayn Randian pseudo-philosophy.

      Please, don't hate.

      You seem to be having a lot of trouble with basic ideas. Let me help. Here is urbandictionary's top definition for hater:

      A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.

      I promise you, I am not jealous of you. You're such an asshole that I feel compelled to call you out on your idiotic bullshit.

  5. Refuse by SumDog · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have refused to sign any contract with a non-compete in it for IT work starting with my first IT job in 2005. I think I saw something on slashdot back then making me weary of them.

    My first company was getting everyone to sign them after sales people were leaving and taking clients, but I just refused and they never asked. With every other company, if I saw it in the contract, I'd tell them "I don't sign non-competes." They would always take it out or give me a new contract. Only one company made a big deal about it, a start up, and it wasn't even the company but their horrible lawyer. The principal investor told me to "sign the contract you want." I wasn't about to writing my own contract and they started paying me anyway...so I basically got paid without a contract. Made it easier to open source what I wrote after the company failed. :)

    TL;DR NEVER SIGN A NON-COMPETE. They are unethical.

    1. Re:Refuse by pspahn · · Score: 1

      Responded above before I saw this. But this may totally be the case.

      I don't think non-competes are entirely unethical. Their premise makes sense, but the gray areas are where lawyers err on the wrong side of the morality spectrum. If an employer isn't willing to make changes to a contract to remove those nasty gray areas that make non-competes absurd, you should be grateful for not signing yourself up for disaster.

      At this point, I imagine many employers don't even realize the non-compete clauses are in their contracts. They just downloaded it from buy-a-generic-contract.com and told the HR person to hand it out to new hires.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    2. Re:Refuse by Old+Aylesburian · · Score: 1

      You can always strike out the offending clause and initial the strikeout. The other party then has the option of accepting this, or not, as they choose. (They always make you sign first, I have noticed).

      In any case such clauses were ruled unlawful in UK courts years ago as they prevent you using your skills.

  6. Well DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So you are saying that allowing people to gather knowledge and use said knowledge even if they change jobs is beneficial? No surprise there. Copyright, patents, non competes, all are almost always only good for the big corporations and have a detrimental effect on the economy as well as innovation.

    We use capitalism because its pretty much the best economic system we have. The biggest component of capitalism is to let people do what they do best. Monopolies in any way will interfere with that. Sometimes a small protection is needed because not having a monopoly would destroy what people are trying to use (for example wireless spectrum is limited in nature and we can't allow everybody to broadcast on everything freely). But other than that competition is the great drive for everybody to make better stuff.

  7. Its about using your best skills by quantaman · · Score: 1

    I think the article misses the mark when it focuses on inventors explicitly choosing districts with non-competes. That may be a factor, but I think people tend to choose the job based on the company and the offer. Things like non-competes are typically a secondary motivation.

    Far more likely the effect comes from better skill utilization. If you work at a company for 5 years and become an expert at X then you're probably an extremely valuable employee when you do X. If you change jobs you'll be most effective at a new company where you can do X, but if you can't work for rivals the number of companies doing X might be drastically smaller.

    Removing the non-compete lets employees use their full range of abilities, probably no one benefits more than startups since they're the ones with the least time and resources with which to mentor and develop a new employee into an expert.

    --
    I stole this Sig
    1. Re:Its about using your best skills by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I think it probably applies to any job. Myself I would never sign a non-compete unless the compensation would shortly free me from having to ever work again. My Father had signed such an agreement and I saw him suffer the consequences when he finally left that company. At the time he told me he could fight it in court that by the time the lawyers were done there wouldn't be anything left and he'd still be out the years of lost income. I didn't know then that moving to California could possibly have been a viable alternative, but he evidentally find it was.

  8. Why Boston's Route 128 lost to Silicon Valley by twasserman · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Non-compete agreements may be part of it, as were the decline and fall of Digital Equipment Corporation, Wang, Data General, Prime Computer and more. With the notable exception of Akamai, there were relatively few big Internet successes among Boston area companies, and the past 15 years have continued that trend.

    But I think that Boston's terrible weather is also a big factor. Here's an analysis of Boston winters that shows the grim reality of 5 or 6 months out of every 12. When sunshine, mild weather, and Silicon Valley jobs beckon on a gloomy February day, it takes a wicked love for the Hub or the Bruins to turn down a good offer. The cost of housing is much higher in the Bay Area, but the bills for heating oil and winter clothing go away, and cars last a lot longer, just to name a few things.

    Boston remains one of my favorite American cities to visit (only during baseball season, though), but I no longer [perhaps unfairly] associate it with startups. Maybe the innovative and creative ideas get frozen out.

  9. There's another law, too... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Informative

    TFA says:

    ... the secret to Silicon Valley's triumph as the global capital of innovation may lie in a quirk of California's employment law that prohibits the legal enforcement of non-compete clauses.

    Yes, that's important.

    But (IMHO even more important) is another "quirk" of California's labor law, which you'll find as a page in the bundle of every employment agreement you're handed in Silicon Valley. This affects patent assignments:

    To paraphrase: If
      - you Invent something,
      - you didn't use the company's resources, and
      - building and selling it isn't in the company's current or expected business model
    It's yours.

    Any patent assignment terms to the contrary are void, overridden by the state's compelling interest. Your employer can't put your great idea on a shelf to gather dust and make it stick. You can partner with a couple of your buddies, move into a garage across the street, and start a new company to exploit the invention.

    This makes California an inventor's Mecca. Startup companies bud like yeast. Inventions go to market rather than being shelved or becoming just playing cards in a game of cross-licensing poker. Inventors get rich. This attracts more talent, so the longer it goes on the easier it is to find the "other two guys" with the complimentary talent you need to make your startup work, making things even easier, in continual positive feedback.

    Small companies get a hiring advantage over conglomerates, too, because the fewer things an employer is into, the fewer classes of invention the employer can lock up rather than exploit.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:There's another law, too... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase: If
      - you Invent something,
      - you didn't use the company's resources, and
      - building and selling it isn't in the company's current or expected business model
      It's yours.

      But this isn't a "quirk of California's labor law". This is true in almost all the States.

      In general, in the absence of a prior agreement to the contrary, what you wrote is true in most states. Certainly every state I've lived in, and I've lived in more than a few.

      What you left out is that if you were explicitly paid to develop your product or invention, in general it then belongs to whoever employed you to do it. It doesn't have to be in "the company's business model" if you were being directly and explicitly paid to do it.

    2. Re:There's another law, too... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      But this isn't a "quirk of California's labor law". This is true in almost all the States.

      Really? Are you saying that, in most other states, the state law voids your patent assignment contract with your employer?

      Remember: What I'm talking here is not "you invented it on your own time with your own tools". I'm talking "You SIGNED A CONTRACT GIVING ALL YOUR INVENTIONS TO YOUR EMPLOYER and THEN invented it on your own time with your own tools."

      I've never heard of this anywhere except CA. I'll be very interested in what other states, if any, also do it.

      And if they do it they should TRUMPET it, so inventors like me would be more interested in working there.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    3. Re:There's another law, too... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Sigh. I should have read your post a little more before replying.

      In general, in the absence of a prior agreement to the contrary, what you wrote is true in most states.

      But we're talking in the PRESENCE of a prior agreement to the contrary:
        - You hired on to do X, for Consolidated Widgets, a company that does X, Y, and Z and isn't interested in doing Q (any time soon).
        - When you hired on, Con Widgets had you sign a patent assignment giving ALL your inventions to them.
        - While still employed, you had a bright idea that's a major breakthrough for Q.
        - You develop your idea on your own time with your own resources.

      In California, YOU own the Q invention, regardless of what your contract with Con Widgets says. (Con Widgets still gets your inventions on X, Y, Z, and anything you worked on in their labs.) California EXPLICITLY VOIDS the patent assignment terms in the former case.

      AFAIK, in every other state Con Widgets would own your Q breakthrough, too.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:There's another law, too... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How are the details determined?

      - you invent something,
      - you didn't use the company's resources, and
      - building and selling it isn't in the company's current or expected business model

      If you have to go to court against your employer to prove that all of the above are true (on your own dime), then you effectively don't really have any of those protections.

    5. Re:There's another law, too... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's been true in Minnesota since 1982. I don't know where to go to find a list.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:There's another law, too... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Really? Are you saying that, in most other states, the state law voids your patent assignment contract with your employer?

      NO. I wrote "In general, in the absence of a prior agreement to the contrary...

      Your patent assignment contract is "a prior agreement to the contrary."

      Try reading next time.

    7. Re:There's another law, too... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Sigh. I should have read your post a little more before replying.

      And I replied to your earlier post before reading this one. So we're even. :o)

      - You hired on to do X, for Consolidated Widgets, a company that does X, Y, and Z and isn't interested in doing Q (any time soon).
      - When you hired on, Con Widgets had you sign a patent assignment giving ALL your inventions to them.
      - While still employed, you had a bright idea that's a major breakthrough for Q.
      - You develop your idea on your own time with your own resources.

      In California, YOU own the Q invention, regardless of what your contract with Con Widgets says.

      Well, that's a little different from the way you described it the first time. This much would be true in most states, except for the patent assignment agreement part. I think in most states the patent assignment would be binding. Which is why I would never sign one.

      I had not heard that you can't assign ALL your patents to the company as a requirement of employment. If so, it must be a fairly recent law, because in fact my father, in California, had such an agreement, and lost the rights to his patent, which was something he did on his own time, without using company resources.

      So while what you say might be true, if so the law must have been passed after 1970.

    8. Re:There's another law, too... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      If you have to go to court against your employer to prove that all of the above are true (on your own dime), then you effectively don't really have any of those protections.

      Why should you have to prove anything? Especially before you start?

      You just file for your own patents, start your own company, and move on. If your idea turns out to be the foundation of a new industry or a disruptive game-changer on an existing one, and your (ex) employer is clueless, he might spend a bunch of HIS money to claim some of the proceeds once you're successful. Then you and your corporate lawyer get to watch the judge laugh him out of court - and maybe order him to pay YOU $ome buck$ on the way out.

      Sure you might end up in court eventually. But that's the name of the game with patents on valuable ideas. All a patent IS is a license to sue.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  10. Getting it Right by Mullen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is where I think the Right Wing and Republicans get it wrong when it comes to business. They look at it as, what is best for business is what will drive business, but in the case of California, it is what is best for employees is what drives business. Who in their right mind would want to work in a state where business can keep you from leaving by creating non-compete contracts? People with talent are going to go where they think it is best for them. In the case of California, weather and not being locked into a company is what is best for them.

    On a side note, I left a company in California that was based out of New Mexico and they told me I could not work in IT for three years because of the non-compete I signed with them. I laughed at them and told them to come to California and try to enforce it. Needless to say, I kept working in California.

    --
    Linux O Muerte!
    1. Re:Getting it Right by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      In the case of California, weather {...} is what is best for them.

      On the other hand, we have water, so much of it that half the year we have to freeze the excess :)

      Life is full of trade offs ....

    2. Re:Getting it Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      MA has extremely strong non-competes and it's no red state. By contrast Texas has limited non-competes for over 120 years.

    3. Re:Getting it Right by superwiz · · Score: 0

      Shhh. You are ruining the narrative. Quickly, dump something on Fox News or Sarah Palin or you'll lose all credibility.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    4. Re:Getting it Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > MA has extremely strong non-competes and it's no red state. By contrast Texas has limited non-competes for over 120 years.

      Until recently you couldn't sell alcohol on Sunday in MA either.

      I didn't realize being a "red state" or a "blue state" means every public policy decision must line up with a single idealogical narrative.

  11. Headdesk by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    Just because a company goes bankrupt doesn't mean its IP is suddenly public domain--the creditors or another company (which either is the sucessor-in-interest or purchased them) will own the copyrights, including in the software you created as a work for-hire if you were employed by them.

    If you open-sourced that software without permission, you put copyrighted work in the open source community without authorization. That means the creditors or other successor-in-interest to that failed startup can get an injunction against anyone using the software, for example. (They can also sue for copyright violation, although what they recover will depend on a variety of factors.)

    If you want to open source software from a company you worked for that went bankrupt, you have to figure out who owns the software first, and get their permission. It may be a creditor, it may be an investor, it may be a new form of the company, it may be someone who bought the IP. If you make a work *for-hire*, then you don't own it just because you created it.

    1. Re:Headdesk by BradMajors · · Score: 2

      Nope.

      If someone does work as a contractor without a formal contract, by default the software / IP is the property of the contractor, and not the other company. He is hence perfectly within his rights to open source his software.

      The situation is different if you are an employee.

    2. Re:Headdesk by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Nope.

      If someone does work as a contractor without a formal contract, by default the software / IP is the property of the contractor, and not the other company. He is hence perfectly within his rights to open source his software.

      The situation is different if you are an employee.

      That is the rule, hence "If you make a work *for-hire*" in my original post. There is a BIG distinction between making a work as a contractor and making one as an employee--and you don't need an employment contract to be working as an employee. Working for a company and not providing your own contract or being willing to take the time to provide one suggests employee, although there may be other facts supporting a finding that he made the work as an IC.

    3. Re:Headdesk by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      That is the rule, hence "If you make a work *for-hire*" in my original post. There is a BIG distinction between making a work as a contractor and making one as an employee--and you don't need an employment contract to be working as an employee. Working for a company and not providing your own contract or being willing to take the time to provide one suggests employee, although there may be other facts supporting a finding that he made the work as an IC.

      But the guy you were talking to wasn't work-for-hire -- did you even read his post?

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    4. Re:Headdesk by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Yes. He didn't say anything about whether he was working for hire or not, just that he had worked for different companies. That could either mean work for different companies on an IC basis or on an employee basis.

  12. Unless your ne employer tells... by mark-t · · Score: 1

    .... your former employer you are working for them. Or unless you actually misappropriate some ip from your old company, which is protected by laws that can carry criminal penalty for infringement and not just civil penalties anyways, whether you signed a non-compete or not, how would your old company even know what you were doing after you left?

    1. Re:Unless your ne employer tells... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      whether you signed a non-compete or not, how would your old company even know what you were doing after you left?

      You suddenly show up in a customer-facing role at another company.

      Your name pops up in patent applications filed by another company.

      Your job is high-profile enough that your name can be found on the other companys website.

      Your old employment contract also contains clauses about you having to report your employment status for the duration of the non-compete.

      There are lots of ways.

    2. Re:Unless your ne employer tells... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Your old employment contract also contains clauses about you having to report your employment status for the duration of the non-compete.

      As far as I know, the only organization that you are obligated to make any kind of regular report of your employment status to is the revenue branch of the regional government. What would the company do if you didn't report in? Hire a private eye to track you down? How likely is it going to be even worth their time to pursue you unless you have actually misappopriated some of their intellectual property, or else otherwise used your former position in the other company to unfairly manipulate circumstances to be measurably disadvantageous to them?

      It really seems that the only utility that noncompetes accomplish is to protect trade secrets or confidential information, but such information or property is already protected by civil or sometimes even criminal law, whether you sign such an agreement or not. If, in your new job, you are not disclosing any such trade secrets or confidential information about your previous company, then your previous employer would never have any practical reason to care who you work for beyond the concern that you *MIGHT* do or say something that you really aren't supposed to, but of course if you do that, then they can actually file charges against you... and depending on the cost to the company, you can even go to jail, so it's not in your best interests to disclose such information anyways. Arguing that you *MIGHT* do something to harm them may be grounds for them to file a lawsuit, but ultimately the onus would still be upon them to prove any actual damages to a judge before you would ever owe them anything. As I pointed out above, you have good incentive to *NOT* disclose such secrets or information, so in the absence of any evidence that you ever did such a thing, a judge would probably be inclined to not award any such damages.

    3. Re:Unless your ne employer tells... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      What would the company do if you didn't report in?

      Sue due to your violating your contract.

      Hire a private eye to track you down?

      Not necessary if you fail to report despite agreeing to do so in the contract. This would only be necessary if the former employer suspects that your reports are not true.

      How likely is it going to be even worth their time to pursue you

      That depends on how many lawyers they have on their payroll that aren't busy doing other things.

    4. Re:Unless your ne employer tells... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If I signed a contract stating that I was supposed to name my next child "Bob", they could try and sue me for violating that contract as well.... that doesn't mean that I'd actually end up owing them anything. A contract that requires you to do things that a company is not legally allowed to ask you to do is not enforceable. It should go without saying, even though it is usually made explicit in a non-compete contract and is true anyways even if you never sign one, is that you are not allowed to disclose any confidential knowledge or proprietary information to other parties, and in places where such contracts are actually legally enforceable, an actual non-compete can at most only prohibit you from utilizing your former position in the company to harm the company, where it is important to realize that hypothetical harm does not actually amount to harm... the fact that you could face civil damages for doing so is going to generally going to be understood by a judge as incentive for you to not do such a thing, and in absence of any evidence that they may have which suggests that you did (which they would not have if you did not do so), they would not be able to convince a judge that you owed them anything... the fact that you may have lied about the detail in the contract gives them no more legal claim to damages than it would be, again, if they had required you to name your next child after your boss and you didn't.

      That said, I'll certainly agree that it's sort of pointless to sign contracts you don't intend to abide by, even if aspects of the contract are not enforceable, because doing so can still potentially damage your credibility, if that is worth anything to you... but in my experience with non-competes, it will never be worth a company's time to ever even go after you just because you might happen to work for a competitor unless you have actually used your former position in that company to harm your previous company in some way (which in many cases, depending upon your former position with the company, you may be able to accomplish with equal efficacy without having any employer afterwards at all, since they cannot generally prohibit you from simply communicating with whomever you like when you are not within the company, unless said communication would also entail a violation of criminal law in some way, which may be entirely theoretically possible, and would not just carry civil penalties anyways, and if such were the case, then it would be equally true even if you had not signed the non-compete at all).

  13. New study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does a document dated 2011 qualify as a new study?

  14. Same as right to work states by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right to work invalidates noncompetes that prevent a person from earning a living in their field. Only noncompete agreements with explicit and reasonable scope "aka - you can't take our clients for a period of X within range of Y" have any chance of standing up.

  15. You are confused, or seem to be by s.petry · · Score: 2

    No compete != No poaching. No poaching matches your last statement about career stifling, no competes means that companies won't try to produce products that someone else produces. I'm not claiming they are not both issues to discuss, I'm pointing out that you can't mix the two conversations like you did and have a rational discussion.

    On one hand, the no-competes are stifle innovation and harm consumers. This is not unconstitutional as some have said, but it is a problem with anti monopoly laws. Further, the garbage patent laws allowing "ideas" to be owned makes it unfortunately easy to perform.

    No poaching on the other hand does stifle careers of people working for companies. Good players can't grow into new better if they are currently stagnant by changing employers which these agreements block.

    In both cases the benefactor is the company execs (board, owners, etc..), not consumers or employees. In fact the latter two are harmed by these agreements.

    TFA's claim is simply deluded and ignores history. No competes are monopoly protection, and a racketeering. To see how this really works, look at who makes money in the DB market space today vs. 15-20 years ago. The only reason consumers have seen benefit from Oracle is by competition from Open Source DBs. Until MySQL (now Maria) and Postgres came along Oracle owned their customers. Products were poor, development was slow, and only big money people could play. Today, it's a different story because of competition which had to come from Open Source products. There are a couple other Silicon Valley companies that could have played in the SQL space but didn't due to these no-competes. You can find out who these are by simply following executives over time and see the other companies they started.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  16. You too are confused by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Libertarian != Liberal. Libertarian would be concerned with common law, not contracts and unions which are predominantly the turf of Liberals.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  17. No, so what, and no again by s.petry · · Score: 2

    First "no": I would agree if you had said that the no competes are unprotected by the US Constitution, but they are illegal. Illegal by both the Sherman Act and Racketeering laws.

    "so what": Not relevant to the discussion, you are confusing two types of agreements (intentionally?). One where Company owners agree mostly in back rooms not to produce products the other makes. The second, is an employee contract which has no bearing on the former.

    The last part is not only a "no", but also not relevant to the discussion in TFA. Employee contract != Apple agreeing to never develop a Database and only using Oracle products, while Oracle agrees not to develop iPods, phones, etc.., etc...

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  18. In a truly free market ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    In a truly free market your only loss if you violated a contract would be loss of trust, making it more costly for you to bargain with others.

    Without the major government intervention called "penal law", your loss for violating a contract would amount to whatever the other party of the contract tells their hired thugs to do to you.

  19. Right to Work by equivocal · · Score: 1

    I'll assume that "Right to Work" does not include the right to break noncompetes.

    1. Re:Right to Work by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      "Right to work" means no employee can be required to join a union. It has nothing to do with noncompetes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes