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How To Make Moonshots

An anonymous reader writes Google Glass failed. Its self-driving cars might change the world. At Google[x], pursuing the biggest, craziest projects means getting comfortable with failure — and embarrassment. Astro Teller, who leads Google's experimental lab Google[x], embraces the idea that failing fast is a way to learn even faster. "Larry Page told me, a little over two years ago, that he wanted to see us crash at least five of these scale versions of the energy kite. Obviously he wants us to be safe and we work very hard to be safe in everything that we do. What he meant by that was that he wanted to see us push ourselves to learn as fast as possible and though the learning from the crashing itself would be close to zero, he was pointing out that if you aren't failing, if you aren't breaking your experimental equipment at least occasionally, you could be learning faster."

112 comments

  1. Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't see how you'll avoid the minefield that is considered "prior art" if you're just enthusiastically fucking around.

    1. Re: Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're missing the point. What they're trying to do is instill a philosophy. It has to do with Theodore Roosevelt and specifically a quote of his and the genius of Nicola Tesla and a quote of his. Look them up on Google and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about!!

    2. Re: Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to think I'm the NSA, and decrypting your unimportant bullshit is some sort of what, security issue for me? I can probably guess which quotes, but who the fuck gives a shit what you're talking about lol?

    3. Re: Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might have had that realization earlier. Next time, if you have some quotes to reference, I find the best approach is to reference them.

      Encrypting yourself in a series of paywalls is not the way to be understood by the great masses, whose intelligence no one has ever lost money underestimating.

    4. Re: Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      âoe is not a quotation mark, just for the record you should use quotation marks to encapsulate your quotes for better legibility. Work on it.

      Fine selections, now you'll just have to clean your vag out with rubbing alcohol.

    5. Re:Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Mike+Frett · · Score: 1

      You: I'm going to make this great new Item!
      Me: Alright, first we need to sort through the 7,000 Patients that may conflict with your Item.
      You: Never mind, I'll just focus on something else.
      Me: You can't, Robots do everything else now.

    6. Re: Innovate, in a world of PATENTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe there are several ways the brain can work. Forcing everyone to think the way other people do does not lead to innovation. Some engineers thrive and pre-planning and methodical engineering, ending with a near perfect product. Others need to fail constantly or they don't think about the failure scenarios, ending with a near perfect product.

      I am tired of successful narcissists thinking the only way to be successful it to follow the exact pattern they took. It is almost as if they are trying to validate their own success was not accidental, by forcing others to obtain success the same way.

  2. That's all well and good... by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...if you have the financial resources to afford to crash and burn. For most of us there's a significant incubation period that might even require profitability before we can afford to push past the point of safety or reliability and dial it back.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:That's all well and good... by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For most of us there's a significant incubation period that might even require profitability before we can afford to push past the point of safety or reliability and dial it back.

      That's a sign that your aspirations are too aspirational. Failure is a common consequence of attempting to do things, and if you can't afford to fail, you're betting against the odds.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:That's all well and good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's called living in the real world. Not the 'whats a $5 billion loss every now and then' silicon valley world

    3. Re:That's all well and good... by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      Yup.

      In order that one might achieve proficiency in his chosen profession someday, a step that cannot be omitted involves failing, occasionally spectacularly, in every imaginable way.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    4. Re:That's all well and good... by khallow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, drinkypoo got it right. If you can't afford to fail, then you're doing it wrong. And $5 billion losses are way outside Silicon Valley's comfort zone. They'd be dumb to commit that kind of money to a high risk "moonshot". The actual money range for initial projects is probably more on the range of a few thousand dollars to a few million dollars.

    5. Re:That's all well and good... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Everyone can afford to fail if they understand their own situation well enough. Google is not ignoring profitability. Note that they're not stupid enough to radically experiment with and risk their core search and advertisement business. Instead, they take small, careful, incremental steps in order to continue improving them over time, just like any other reasonable company does with their core products.

      All their moonshots are high-risk, high-return gambles that they invest a *portion* of their profits in. Any business, assuming they're profitable to begin with, can do the same. It's just that those moonshots will need to be scaled down in proportion with their business' revenue. Of course, at hat point, it's not really appropriate to call them "moonshots" anymore, but we've always had plenty of names for those: R&D, incubator projects, pilot programs, etc.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    6. Re:That's all well and good... by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your comment is a sign you have no idea at all what is really going on. Google tech indulgences and not empty tech indulgences, they are a modern marketing technique. They create a impression about the kind of company Google is, well, at least pretends to be and the kind of expertise they have, well at least pretends they have and each and every fucking single time they make a tech announcement or tech update or just randomly waffle on about the tech stuff they are doing, the press dutifully picks it up and free advertises Google to the world.

      Now you can either just burn money on advertising like M$ do, emptily B$ about features that disappear or make greatly exaggerated claims about their products or you can really be pretty cunning and sneaky, invest in high risk tech research that the worlds press will report on and get tons and tons of free advertising and have a chance of a big payout for that tech research (just leaving a 'positive impression about your company and products').

      At a guess their investment in tech research is generating something like about like between $3 to $5 of free advertising for each dollar invested in research and depending upon the announcement cycle and interest it is up to $10 and maybe as high as $100 on occasions. LIKE RIGHT FUCKING NOW

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:That's all well and good... by plover · · Score: 1

      I heard a great quote from a filmmaker who encouraged his cameramen to take big risks: "If you're going to soar with the eagles, you can't expect to crap like a canary."

      They shot mountains of unusable trivial footage, which cost them a ton of cash. But they also produced some spectacular, memorable films, which catapulted them and their clients to huge popular success. He realized that he had to risk his business to succeed, and he won. Not everyone who takes those kinds of risks succeeds, but companies that take no risks generally don't explode with success, either.

      --
      John
    8. Re:That's all well and good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if it's more of a tax strategy.

    9. Re:That's all well and good... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      ...if you have the financial resources to afford to crash and burn

      That's implied in the name "moonshot". If budget is a constraining factor, then what you're attempting isn't a moonshot, but standard R&D. It's the difference between a Boeing exec. deciding to fund the development of a better plane and JFK saying "get us to the moon no matter what".

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    10. Re:That's all well and good... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I've only just realized that this isn't about actual moonshots. Need more coffee I think.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:That's all well and good... by schlachter · · Score: 1

      a few thousand dollars?! that would cover one engineer for long enough to set up his dev environment or a couple engineers to whiteboard for a few hours.

      they probably get $25K to $50K to explore the space for a few weeks and it goes up orders of magnitude based on success at each stage.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    12. Re:That's all well and good... by khallow · · Score: 1

      that would cover one engineer for long enough to set up his dev environment

      And sometimes that is all you need.

    13. Re:That's all well and good... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And sometimes that is all you need.

      Yeah, there seems to be this misconception that every new project gets a feasibility study, focus groups, etc etc. But oftentimes it's just one person's baby...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:That's all well and good... by schlachter · · Score: 1

      setting up a dev environment is all you need? white boarding is all you need?

      no, those are things you need to do before you even ask for money.

      it takes $25K for one single mid level engineer to just write some code for a few weeks, see if he can break through the most likely failure points.

      has nothing to do with focus groups or feasibility studies. if you want to do that, drop another $100K on top.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    15. Re:That's all well and good... by khallow · · Score: 1

      it takes $25K for one single mid level engineer to just write some code for a few weeks, see if he can break through the most likely failure points.

      No, it doesn't.

    16. Re:That's all well and good... by schlachter · · Score: 1

      I work at a pretty representative tech company. I plan and control the budget for these types of activities. I think I would know.

      We're not talking about you hacking away in your mom's garage...or a tiny company running with no overhead. We're talking about a typical engineer at a Google/Facebook/IBM/etc making $100K+/yr who's actual cost (i.e bill rate) is at least $300K+/yr...being funded for a month.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    17. Re:That's all well and good... by khallow · · Score: 1

      I work at a pretty representative tech company. I plan and control the budget for these types of activities. I think I would know.

      And in the following sentence you indicate you don't

      We're not talking about you hacking away in your mom's garage...

      The "moonshot" is not just a thing that "pretty representative tech companies", that happen to be in the developed world, do.

  3. Indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And when you're Google, you really do have more money than time.

    Move fast and break things...

  4. The real way to make moonshots by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 5, Informative

    2 oz Gin
    3 oz Clam Juice
    1 dash Tabasco

    They could have just googled for it :-)

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:The real way to make moonshots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that moonshot was what one got all over one's face when one jerks off a group of moon aliens, one after another, bukake-style.

    2. Re:The real way to make moonshots by JonathanR · · Score: 2

      That's the mooney shot.

    3. Re:The real way to make moonshots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moonshine and shot glasses. Yeeeeeeehaaaa!!!

  5. Ridiculous by sexconker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is ridiculous, upbeat bullshit intended to convince people that Google is a positive, dynamic, agile, bleeding-edge, open, otherbuzzwords place to work.

    You learn no more from failure than you learn from success. There are many ways to fail and few ways to succeed, thus it is better to learn what to do than what not to do. Failure simply slaps people upside the head and makes them think before trying again. Failure is a learning experience if you didn't plan ahead in the first place. Further, there are many scenarios where failing is not an option (e.g., medical, military, and space ventures). Failure in these areas is seen as a shameful mark worthy of criticism, lawsuits, retaliation, etc. more than it is a learning experience.

    If Google wants to drive people's cars around or float massive objects above their heads they better not be prancing about on Unicorn Rainbow "Failure is Okay" Island.

    1. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, everything in there seems plausible.

      -IF- you're in a company that can lose enough money down the couch to buy a few small countries.

    2. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Moonshot" in this case is a word defined as: throw stuff against a wall and see if it sticks.

    3. Re:Ridiculous by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You learn no more from failure than you learn from success. There are many ways to fail and few ways to succeed, thus it is better to learn what to do than what not to do.

      Sure, but the point is that you often can't do the one without the other. Fear of failure tends to cause companies to just stick with what they already do well. That means they basically aren't learning anything at all.

      Of course companies should fund the projects that they think are most likely to become profitable. They'll still fail at some of them, and willingness to embrace that increases the odds that they'll come up with something truly innovative.

    4. Re:Ridiculous by Rinikusu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A boy once asked a successful businessman what makes a man successful?

      "Good decisions, my boy, good decisions!"

      The boy thought for a moment and then asked how does a man learn how to make good decision?

      "Bad decisions, my boy, bad decision."

      I've found in life life I learn more from my mistakes than my successes. Similar to how poker players can rarely tell you about all the pots they've won, it's the big ones they lost that stand out in their minds.

      Feel free to change gender of the examples. It doesn't change the message.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    5. Re:Ridiculous by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You learn no more from failure than you learn from success. There are many ways to fail and few ways to succeed, thus it is better to learn what to do than what not to do.

      This is a rational argument applied to the real world, and it doesn't hold true. Rational arguments are almost *never* true when applied to the real world, unless they start from a fundamental model and build up. (And in that case you can make testable predictions.)

      Eighty percent of first businesses fail, but only 20% of *second* businesses fail, and it's not because people don't try to do it right the first time.

      Both Thomas Edison and [head of IBM] Thomas J. Watson have extensive experience in this, and both have written positions on the subject. When someone approached Watson and asked "how can I increase my success rate", he responded "double your failure rate". When someone asked Edison how he could continue researching the electric light bulb after failing 5,000 times, he replied "I haven't failed 5,000 times, I know 5,000 ways that won't work" (source).

      The rational argument fails when it's applied to the risk/reward formulation. Each time you fail you lose 1x the value of the experiment, but each time you succeed you regain 50x the value of the experiment in profit.

      The mantra in the IT world is "fail fast, fail often", which reflects the risk-reward equation very well. It takes almost nothing to set up a website showing your idea to the world, and almost nothing to shutter it 6 months later.

      But once in awhile, that idea becomes popular and profitable and you can recoup your investment many times over. That's why people should fail; or rather, not be afraid of failure.

      Not because of any rationalization, but because it's historically the route to success.

    6. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've rather missed the point.

    7. Re: Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Salespeople live by the same philosophy on a daily basis...your argument is nil.

    8. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “We have the technology. The time is now. Science can wait no longer. Children are our future. Google can, should, must and will blow up the moon.”

    9. Re:Ridiculous by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are many ways to fail and few ways to succeed, thus it is better to learn what to do than what not to do. Failure simply slaps people upside the head and makes them think before trying again. Failure is a learning experience if you didn't plan ahead in the first place.

      Here's the rub. You can never plan ahead enough to eliminate failure. Sometimes the cost of planning is not worth the cost of the failure you avoid.

      Further, there are many scenarios where failing is not an option (e.g., medical, military, and space ventures). Failure in these areas is seen as a shameful mark worthy of criticism, lawsuits, retaliation, etc. more than it is a learning experience.

      Not even a little bit. Failure happens all the time in medicine, military, and space ventures. It doesn't even make sense to assume that these areas where failure is or should be rare. For example, you will eventually die, which indicates that no matter how good or competent medical care is, it will always fail in the end. Military ventures are usually chock full of failure, merely because there are rival parties trying their hardest to make you fail. And every space vehicle has gone through a period of high failure rate in the beginning.

      Failure might not be an "option", but it is always present. Learning how to deal with failure rather than engaging in meaningless "shaming" is essential to success in these areas.

      You learn no more from failure than you learn from success.

      You learn different things from failures than you do from success. For example, a lot of areas such as every scenario you mentioned above, have recurrent failures. So if you analyze existing failures, you might be able to avoid or mitigate these failures in the future. You can't learn that from the successes, only from the failures.

    10. Re:Ridiculous by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Plus, "If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough."

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:Ridiculous by orlanz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Excellent post. Posting to highlight a point.

      "fail FAST, fail often"

      Most businesses fail to do the first part and screw up the entire equation. Most bankruptcies, going out of business, bubbles, and mismanagement isn't because of failure. Its the lack of recognition of failure and continued operations that end up eating all the resources and erases the reward altogether.

      If you don't fail fast, you will fail once, period.

    12. Re:Ridiculous by Harlequin80 · · Score: 2

      There are many ways to fail and few ways to succeed, thus it is better to learn what to do than what not to do.

      Except by learning only by succeeding you can be left in the situation where you don't understand why you are succeeding. This means that you have a weak base to refine and expand your base because you don't know how you got where you are.

    13. Re:Ridiculous by BoogieChile · · Score: 1

      Actually, they better be, no they need to be prancing about on "Failure is okay" island as hard and frequently as they can. Crash it, burn it, boil it in glue. Because that way, they find out all the ways to STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING.

      That way, when they do get out into rough, tough "Failure is not an option" land, they won't have to spend nearly as much on nasty expensive lobbyists and politicians to make their little faux pas go away.

    14. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 1

      100% agree. This 'fail fast' crap is extremely narrow-minded. We didn't get to the moon by failing fast. We got to the moon by trying like hell to get it right. Failing faster would have led to 100 different aborted attempts at the first sign of trouble in a design. All the approaches had many failure modes that had to be worked through diligently. At what point do you declare failure vs. work through a problem?

    15. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 1

      ..and many companies burn through their capital on their 3rd attempt at failure. Failure isn't the goal. Forward progress is the goal. Recognizing failure or impasse quickly and cutting losses is the goal.

      Sometimes doing nothing is a perfectly good option if there isn't a viable path given the current state of technology, market demand, and capital available. Timing is everything.

    16. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 1

      Try like hell, recognize failure.

      I think that is easier to agree with.

    17. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 1

      That's why people should fail; or rather, not be afraid of failure.

      That is the key element. People take the failure part too literally as a measure of success. Failure may occur. Everyone has to do their own math on the risk/reward. There is no guarantee of the big payout for the 1 in 50 success rate.

    18. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most bankruptcies, going out of business, bubbles, and mismanagement isn't because of failure. Its the lack of recognition of failure and continued operations that end up eating all the resources and erases the reward altogether.

      Umm, isn't the lack of recognition of failure ALSO a failure, so what the OP said was perfectly fine without the added fluff of your comment? Besides, if you fail and recognize the failure then you DO fail once, rather than twice in not recognizing the failure-failure.

    19. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similar to how poker players can rarely tell you about all the pots they've won, it's the big ones they lost that stand out in their minds.

      No poker player I know *ever* speaks about a pot they lost.
      All they talk about is what big pots they won, and how.

    20. Re:Ridiculous by N1AK · · Score: 1

      Further, there are many scenarios where failing is not an option (e.g., medical, military, and space ventures).

      Of course it is. It makes clear in the summary they are talking about failure during the experimental stage, not in production products. You think Lockhead, Pfizer, SpaceX never, ever, have a failure during the design or testing phases? Hell, military history is littered with thousands of weapons, planes, other tech, that never made it to production.

      The article never suggested that they should fail for the fuck of it. The argument was that if you're pushing forward quickly on with something bleeding edge then sometimes things will break, and safety concerns aside that's not an issue for Google.

    21. Re:Ridiculous by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Failing on the drawing board is faster (and cheaper) than failing at the prototype stage, which is faster (and cheaper and kills fewer people) then failing when it's in active service.

      That's the point.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Each time you fail you lose 1x the value of the experiment, but each time you succeed you regain 50x the value of the experiment in profit.

      Not only that. Also, if you succeed, the reason for the success may be unclear. Weak points go undiscovered, because *this* time, you succeeded. Next time may be a failure, because something (apparently) trivial was changed. This failure teaches you more, because it shows that the apparently trivial change was important after all.

    23. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 2

      I suppose it comes down to semantics of words.

      To me, failure means "Failure to meet project goals" that is always bad. Money runs out, timelines slip, safety is compromised, etc.

      It sounds like fail-fast means: "quickly write off solutions that are unworkable" To most engineers, that is just a feasibility study. Granted, the faster and cheaper you can write off a truly bad solution, the better off you are. Breaking a few prototype is not a failure as long as that was considered in the project budget. But giving up on a workable solution too early can lead to much churning.

    24. Re:Ridiculous by neilo_1701D · · Score: 1

      100% agree. This 'fail fast' crap is extremely narrow-minded. We didn't get to the moon by failing fast. We got to the moon by trying like hell to get it right. Failing faster would have led to 100 different aborted attempts at the first sign of trouble in a design. All the approaches had many failure modes that had to be worked through diligently. At what point do you declare failure vs. work through a problem?

      You need to go study the Apollo missions in more detail. And how about chasing down NASA footage of the spectacular rocket fails from the late 50's / early 60's. NASA had monumental failures whilst chasing the moon.

      Let's not forget Apollo 1.

      Yes, NASA tried really hard to get it right. And when reality interfered with those plans, they figured out where their expectations didn't work out, learned and moved on (SA1 .. SA5; AS101 .. AS105; AS201 .. AS203; Apollo 4 .. Apollo 6). Then they staged the moon shots to validate plans: first to LEO (Apollo 7), then moon orbital (Apollo 8), LM seperation (Apollo 9), LM decent / ascent (Apollo 5 / Apollo 10)... and once all those trial runs had happened, Apollo 11 landed on the moon.

      So to address your point of "Failing faster would have led to 100 different aborted attempts at the first sign of trouble in a design", NASA had 20 launches of the Saturn launch system before declaring it man-rated; and in particular Apollo 6 suffered from pogo vibrations that needed a design change.

      NASA failed fast. They had the resources to keep going. We all remember July 20, 1969, either because we watched it live (I was 2 at the time) or because we've seen it / read about it. It's easy to forget the 10 years of testing and failure prior to that, because it's all so long ago.

    25. Re:Ridiculous by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Here's the rub. You can never plan ahead enough to eliminate failure. Sometimes the cost of planning is not worth the cost of the failure you avoid.

      Exactly. I have been involved in many projects that spend so much time in the planning stage, that by the time we are ready to move forward, the people supporting the project are gone and all traction dissolved. Then in a year or two, the exact same project starts up again - in the planning stage.

    26. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seriously don't think that failure was understood to be part of the process during the Space Race? Do you really believe that every piece of military equipment was without flaws when it was first tested? Tell me, please, what color is the sky in your world? You're either inexperienced, insane or a deliberate troll.

      It's not that failures are celebrated, it's that they're anticipated and - most importantly - planned to be learned from. If you build 12 prototypes of hardware, supposedly all identical, and 6 work and 6 fail differently, which ones do you look at to improve your next round? The ones that don't work. Why? Because they'll show you where your concept or design is marginal. If you're smart when you're building prototypes, you put significant time in the schedule for postmortem analysis and you make "lessons learned" notes, if not presentations. If you don't and all you do is present your successes, it won't be long before the designers of the next generation will make the same mistakes you did.

      I was on a project to produce a ground breaking, company saving product. We had a couple rules of thumb, but one was if you're not making mistakes, you're not pushing hard enough (the other was, if you're not confused and concerned, you're not paying attention). The goal wasn't to produce crap, the goal was to push way further than the company had done before and make rapid progress because if we didn't, we were out of jobs in a pretty short period of time. We had some amazingly messed up prototypes and breadboards. But most of them proved something different or helped solve a problem. Is the product flawless? No. But it has enabled a lot of people to do a lot of work that couldn't be done for 10x the cost. It has kept the company afloat. Is it a good product? Yes. Definitely.

      The philosophy that drove the development of the British early warning radar system during WWII was that you'd field the third best system. The best system will never leave the drafting board (draughting board?), the second best will arrive too late to be useful, but the third best, warts and all, will get fielded and make a difference when it matters.

    27. Re:Ridiculous by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      ..and many companies burn through their capital on their 3rd attempt at failure. Failure isn't the goal. Forward progress is the goal. Recognizing failure or impasse quickly and cutting losses is the goal.

      Isn't that basically the whole point of the article? Google tries new things, and abandons them if they don't work out.

    28. Re:Ridiculous by Euler · · Score: 1

      Yes these are really good points. Certainly they did abort more than 100 different bad ideas.

      There is a really good series "From Earth to the Moon." What I love is how much people were able to accomplish without email, CAD, collaboration apps, etc. It is hard enough to coordinate 10 engineers even with modern technology. You really get a sense of the planning involved from 1961 to 1969 and beyond. They had an overall plan and were determined not to fail their primary mission, and there were big question marks left in their plans for things yet to be invented.

      NASA could afford to blow up rockets and not run out of funding. I think that is a key element to work within practical limits of available capital. They were certainly agile and were willing to throw out bad ideas.

      Absolutely Apollo 1 was a failure. People died. That was unacceptably outside of the mission parameters. But I argue that is the reason to avoid a careless approach that encourages failure.

  6. Misleading headline by Drunkulus · · Score: 2

    It should be "How to Make Segways"

  7. How to not make moon shots. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is how to blow absurd amounts of money on fanciful ideas.
    More accurately, How to FAIL at a moonshot.
    Tell me any of Google's "Moon shot" ideas that are actually worth a damn after as long as it took us to get to the actual moon.
    Not one. Self driving cars? Google Glass? data blimps? etc etc.
    Every one of these is an answer in search of a problem.
    All of them are inelegant complicated answers too.
    Data blimps? a friend of mine wired every single district of a sizable 3rd world nation with fiber in 2 years. Net access over cell phones and the people can afford it.
    Energy kites? mechanical failure, faaaaaaar too complicated for mass deployment and support.
    Self driving cars? even with their big data backing they aren't reliable and can't operate outside of a controlled environment.
    and the list goes on.
    I love new tech and research and problem solving, but these are masturbatory projects at best.

    1. Re:How to not make moon shots. by peragrin · · Score: 1

      According to you google itself shouldn't exist. As google the search engine was a moonshot. Hell ms DOS was a moonshot.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:How to not make moon shots. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google was a moonshot? How the fuck do you figure?

      Other search engines already existed, and the idea of indexing the web and helping people find things is just about as old as the web itself. Google was neither a "big, risky project" nor an "ambitious scientific achievement."

      They took the existing state of the art, and built a slightly more efficient version of it. If Google is a "moonshot," then so is Yahoo, ALtavista, Lycos,WebCrawler, and another half dozen or more search engines that existed long before Google was a twinkle in Sergey's eye. Google wasn't even the first one to sell advertising space - they just did it more efficiently.

      Your definition of moonshot seems to be, "anything I've every heard of." In that case, let me tell you about my moonshot today: I tied my shoes, friend. It was a feat of magnificent scale, fraught with the risk of failure, but ambitiously rewarding beyond measure!

    3. Re:How to not make moon shots. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Hell ms DOS was a moonshot

      MSDOS was initially a cutdown CP/M workalike Bill saw running and bought (eventually) so that's playing it about as safe as you can get.
      Google was initially the science citation index ranking (not that the kids would remember such a thing on microphish) applied to web pages so not a huge leap in the dark either, even if it was a bit of a surprise to just about everyone.

    4. Re:How to not make moon shots. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      This is the most clueless post I've seen here. You've clearly never done any R&D, or worked on a serious (multi-million dollar) engineering project. Come back if you care, and do so w/o posting as AC.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  8. Google glass choices by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    Google glass failed, but I suspect that they allowed it to fail due to lack of persistent development.

    The way most people work is that they try something, it doesn't work, and they give up. I've heard lots of things like "I can't learn to whistle, I've tried" and "I tried that, but it didn't work". Mostly it's amateurs building stuff and giving up on the first try: "I put the circuit together and it didn't work", or "I tried to build a spice rack for Marge, but it turned out awful".

    If you really want to make something, you have to be prepared to throw the first one out and start over. If the circuit doesn't work, find out *why* it didn't work and fix it. If your spice rack is awful, spend some time on YouTube looking at proper technique, then spend some time using the router (or table saw, or whatnot) with pieces of scrap until you get the hang of it. Then start the project over.

    Google glass could have been popular if they noted the feedback and piloted the project into more popular waters. For example:

    1) A flip-down cover for the camera, so you can interact with people and they know you aren't recording them
    2) A less restrictive interface, so that developers can show anything instead of storyboard images like a viewmaster. IOW, a direct graphical interface.
    3) a less expensive device (costs $150 to make, $1500 to buy). (Note: Cell phones have largely the same functionality and don't cost $1500)

    Rather than fix the problems, they decided to just let it die. Maybe they did market analysis and thought that it would never sell in any form, but I really doubt they went that far.

    1. Re:Google glass choices by jphamlore · · Score: 1
      This is what stalled Google Glass, the same thing that killed Nokia as a phone company. Google chose the wrong ARM SoC

      Support from the SoC vendor is the first step in getting an update out the door, and you'll see many phones' support lifecycles cut short thanks to the likes of Texas Instruments and Nvidia. The Galaxy Nexus used a Texas Instruments OMAP 4460 SoC. TI quit the smartphone business in 2012, leaving Google's flagship without support for KitKat. The only device we've seen update to KitKat without support from the silicon vendor is Google Glass, which uses the same chip as the Galaxy Nexus. If the incredibly buggy performance of Google Glass post-KitKat update is any indication, though, that was an experiment that went very poorly.

      The speculation is Google Glass will be switching to Intel for the next iteration. There's a reason why many of the mass market mobile device players such as Apple and Samsung have invested in their own ARM SoCs. There is in fact an uncanny correlation between mobile device companies selling hardware having catastrophic collapse of market share such as Nokia and Blackberry with failure to develop an ARM SoC for the 2010s and beyond.

    2. Re:Google glass choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4) Actually make something that covers most of your vision.

      I think most people who got to sample Google Glass wondered why they would want a headset that simulates holding your phone at arms length.

    3. Re:Google glass choices by N1AK · · Score: 1

      Google glass isn't a spice rack, moonshots aren't equivalent to fudging together a basic circuit. Those analogies make it appear that you think developing new high-tech products for categories that don't is equivalent to building a basic wooden item that millions have done before; it obviously isn't and it undermines any credibility the rest of your post may have had.

    4. Re:Google glass choices by Raumkraut · · Score: 1

      If you want a device which covers most of your vision, get some VR or AR glasses - Google Glass is not what you're looking for. But if you want a mostly unobtrusive, hands-free display; to occasionally reference while you actually get shit done in the real world; then perhaps Google Glass could help you.

      Contrary to the media headlines, Google Glass wasn't a complete failure, and wasn't shut down. Perhaps it was failure in the *consumer* market (which they never actually released into); but AFAIK it is still available, supported, and well used, in various medical/industrial settings.

  9. Stop trying to sound clever, you look like a fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google Glass failed. Its self-driving cars might change the world.

    I didn't know Google Glass had self-driving cars?

  10. Wrong Larry by geekmux · · Score: 2

    At first when I read about championing failure as a path to success, I thought they were talking about Larry Ellison.

    It explained so much about the quality of Oracle.

  11. Stupid products aren't moonshots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Quantum computers, nuclear fusion and a manned expedition to Mars are moonshots. This is just a novelty. Please don't cheapen the actual lunar landings by overusing "moonshot" for what is essentially just regular R&D.

    1. Re:Stupid products aren't moonshots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're lucky they don't ban your IP for talking sense like that.

    2. Re:Stupid products aren't moonshots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even software faggots eventually realize the faggotry of their ways.

  12. How to make moonshots by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    Easy. Do you have a mirror?

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  13. LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes everyone knows they set out with failure in mind with the Moon landing. It's not like people had been envisioning that for centuries or taking an attitude where "failure is not an option". No. Certainly not like that. The secret of success is simply failing as many times as you can, as fast as you can.

    Reminds me of the episode of Futurama where Zapp Brannigan hands Kif his book of pickup lines and instructs him to say as many as he can, as fast as he can :P

    1. Re:LOL by khallow · · Score: 2

      Yes everyone knows they set out with failure in mind with the Moon landing.

      You are right. They didn't. But failure was a really high likelihood at various parts of the program. For example, I've heard that the odds of losing at least part of the crew on Apollo 11, the first landing on the moon, were estimated at about a third, prior to the mission. Failure was a possible and way too likely outcome despite the "failure is not an option" mantra.

      The problem was not that Apollo program had a better solution to "moonshots" than "fail early, fail often", but rather that they couldn't do that. The program could have been made a bit more incremental and resilient to failure, but in the end, you're either landing people on the Moon or you're not. There are huge jumps in technology and risk taking that Apollo just couldn't avoid.

    2. Re:LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wasn't really expecting any replies, certainly not one so insightful. Thank you for that, haha

    3. Re:LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are missing the point. The point is that there are ways to mitigate the risk. There are approaches to learning and innovating that do not involve "build it and watch it implode". In fact, most of the innovation and learning that is not done by SV hipsters is done by incremental experimentation, not by watching something crash and burn.

      A great deal of the crash-n-burn that one sees in SV is the result of simply not learning from history and not putting enough effort into the planning and experimentation phases.

    4. Re:LOL by khallow · · Score: 1

      I think you are missing the point. The point is that there are ways to mitigate the risk. There are approaches to learning and innovating that do not involve "build it and watch it implode". In fact, most of the innovation and learning that is not done by SV hipsters is done by incremental experimentation, not by watching something crash and burn.

      I don't think so. Everyone who has any exposure to Silicon Valley knows stories. Mine is that I was friends with someone who involved with a start up run by a couple of Stanford grads that was given $70 million to provide services for virtual ISPs. The business case was remarkably weak, the organization was structured badly (their billing system was built and operated by a contractor and most of the staff was for show), and the leadership seemed more interested in the weekly parties than in running a business. Sure, I wouldn't have learned anything from that failure, but I bet a lot of really gullible people did.

      Googling around, I see that a number of the leadership also moved on to other things. So the failure didn't really hurt them either (assuming it actually was failure from their point of view). Maybe they learned to plan or something.

      But just because people do dumb stuff in Silicon Valley doesn't invalidate the claim. If you're doing something where failure just isn't that costly, then you should be aggressive enough to fail on a regular basis. That's even more so when you expect a variety of failures to happen during normal operation.

      The "energy kite" of the story just isn't that expensive a prototype. It's also something that you would expect to fail every now and then even under normal operation. If they aren't breaking a few of them, then they aren't really exploring the envelope in which this vehicle operates or how to detect and recover from such failures.

    5. Re:LOL by N1AK · · Score: 1

      All these people using the moon landing as an example of why FAIL FAST isn't needed are making me chuckle. You're absolutely right about the very high risk of the mission. Arguably NASA took some huge risks purely because speed was seen as critical; they could have done dozens more missions with smaller evolutionary steps and/or waited for technologies to be better tested or refined.

      There's a certain demographic that hear "Fail Fast, Fail Often" and create the most absurd straw-men. Fail Fast doesn't mean try to fail, it means try to do the riskiest stuff first so that you know if you have issues quickly. Fail Often doesn't mean try to fail, it means don't be afraid of trying to do something just because their is a good chance of failure. It's been pointed out enough times before, but sadly it's like trying to explain the wonders of beverages to a block of sodium.

    6. Re:LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I can't imagine how that failure would be harmful to, say, an economy or society.

    7. Re:LOL by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If they didn't have Aldrin on board with a slide rule and his vivid memory of his thesis on orbital rendezvous (http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/12652) then it's very likely that they wouldn't have made it back when the computer on Eagle failed.
      That's just an example of a component failure that was prevented from causing a mission failure.

    8. Re:LOL by khallow · · Score: 1

      You bring up good points. The actual "moonshot", the Apollo program wasn't a good example of how to do a moonshot due to the huge risks and jumps that NASA took. They had their reasons, but it was a tremendous gamble that might not have paid off. And really, if you're speaking of moonshots in the Apollo sense where you don't have the same urgency or the same willingness to gamble a considerable amount of effort on getting it right the first time, then you're doing it wrong.

    9. Re:LOL by khallow · · Score: 1

      Besides that kind of failure never happens, so why would we ever need to learn about it?

    10. Re:LOL by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Yes everyone knows they set out with failure in mind with the Moon landing.

      To deal with failures, Apollo program also consisted of a huge infrastructure to deal with failures. Many test stands and test articles were built, a lot of F1 engines were built as one failed after another. I'm sure many a thousands of engineers pulled many allnighters trying to make things work including s-band transmitters. First flight of Saturn V rocket had significant pogo oscillation problems (heck many other rockets had same problems). Immediately many engineers and techs built a test stand to learn how to mitigate pogo oscillations. And there was Apollo 1 capsule fire. Lots of resources were poured into complete redesign and construction. Lots of problems occurred i.e. computer problems on Apollo 11 lunar lander but there were resources of engineers and programmers to attack and solve that problem before it became a disaster. And Apollo 13 but there was a huge infrastructure of people and hardware to come up with contingencies to deal with the situation that allowed crew to safety return.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
  14. they're missing something by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

    It always seems like these guys are missing something. Bell Labs had this figured out. Arguably, IBM has done a better job of this in recent decades. I get the impression the people at Google just kind of heard about a bunch of failed DARPA projects and decided to try and fix them up. Self driving cars, enhanced reality headsets, balloon based networks, nanoparticle diagnostics, jetpacks, neural network enhanced computer vision... all legacy military development projects... all very cool, but not really lightning strikes of inspiration.

    Is it that they don't have the right people? Are their projects too fast? Are they too structured? Maybe they're purposefully trying to only do things others have already tried and failed for some reason. Perhaps it's that they've forgotten the difference between innovation and invention. Innovation builds successful companies, but they'll need a hefty dose of invention if they really want a "moon shot."

    1. Re:they're missing something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes I can't tell whether they're purposefully obfuscating, forced to lie about their real projects, or simply incompetent as you describe. Also for some reason I can't help but feel you are absolutely correct about Bell Labs; IBM, I'm not entirely certain at this point.

    2. Re:they're missing something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know what they're missing? For the most part... domain experience. This is also known as "I'm A Super Smart IT Guy" disease - nerds who are real virtuosos with a computer think that because they can write software, they know everything about the universe, and can waltz into a decades- or centuries-old area of research and shake the world with their fresh insights.

      The reality is that the experts who have been plugging away at these problems for - literally - decades have already considered and discarded most of these ideas as impractical, wildly inefficient, or completely useless. Occasionally, the experts in a given field will overlook a *really fucking obvious* solution to a major problem... but it's pretty rare that every single expert will have the exact same blind spot.

      When approaching these kinds of problems, "fail fast, fail often" really doesn't work. Almost all of the routes to fast failure have been discovered already for most of these problems. Chances are you're going to have to spend years hammering away at these problems before you make appreciable progress towards solving them. Google's philosophy on moonshots seems to be better summed as, "fail visibly, capitalize on the press release."

  15. HEY LARRY PAGE, HANGOUTS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Article doesn't mention Hangouts, their worst moonshot yet.

  16. Say the people who have zero successes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All of Google's "moonshots" have crashed and burned. It's a little fresh for them to act like like the wise men of innovation when they haven't been able to innovate a profitable product since before their IPO. The only thing that keeps them afloat is the killing they make from ads on search.

  17. larry page is god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I dont spend anytime thinking about larry page other than shooting down posts on slashdot evelvating him to a guru like figure above mere mortals.
    Don;t have anything much against him either except the accumulation of vast amounts of money, power, and egoistic importance in the eyes of the world.
    Of course the elite need compassion and suffer as well. But how he thinks I should test something, probably irrelevant, I'm sure many others could have provided the insight, however they weren't named larry page, for some reason, and for some other reason that was relevant.

  18. If Intel made Glasses... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha ha, If Intel made glasses, they'd need a 2lbs heatsink on them and have a 10 minute battery life.

    From what we hear, Intel is offering discounts on Core processors for desktops if you use their chips in the mobile device. Google does not make desktop PCs so Intel's inducement won't get their chip into glass. There has yet to be a top selling Intel based phone, yet the new A53 and A57s SoC are in all the big sellers.

    Nokia's market collapse was courtesy of Elop, who undermined and then killed their main product and had them adopt a really bad Windows platform that did less and had less market share. Having locked the company into Microsoft, he then sold it to MS on the cheap, and received a $25 million bonus FROM MICROSOFT for his work.

    Blackberry simply made bad phones, they forget why their users liked them, and tried to copy Android. Lost the keyboards, their secure messaging was cracked (NSA and others), and so they lost their main advantage.

    1. Re:If Intel made Glasses... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Nice Intel joke from 2006! Hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahaaaahahhhahahaaaahahaahsoclever*burp*

  19. Astro Teller missed the point by gravitypulls · · Score: 1

    "and though the learning from the crashing itself would be close to zero" - he doesn't get it

  20. Astro Teller by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

    I'd really want a guy named like that in charge of my experimental lab :-)

    1. Re:Astro Teller by stox · · Score: 1

      You do realize who his father was?

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    2. Re:Astro Teller by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

      Uri Geller?

    3. Re:Astro Teller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paul Teller, a college instructor. But something tells me you didn't realize that.

    4. Re:Astro Teller by stox · · Score: 1

      Ooops, you're right. I was a generation off.

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
  21. Slogan driven development by hughbar · · Score: 1

    Or SDD as it is known in HughBar-Labs [inventors of llama-case, one capital letter at the beginning of stuff] has been in use since about 1930. Some blame it for the rise of the Nazis in Germany, they used plenty of slogans, too. Our lawyer tried to sue them, but we never heard from him again, last thing was a postcard from some place sounding like Tribblinka, maybe the tribbles ate him?

    Seriously though folks.

    --
    On y va, qui mal y pense!
  22. true, however many solutions WERE thought impracti by raymorris · · Score: 1

    You have a point. On the other hand, many approaches that WERE impractical 10 or 20 years ago are quite practical now. Consider any solution that in involves a modern computer. Twenty years ago, you'd need a cluster of computers to do what can now be done on a cheap prepaid phone. Any solution to an individual's daily hassles that involves a multi-Ghz processor was written off as impractical. Now, there's an app for that.

    Then there are all of the building-blocks that have become available. Facial recognition and machine vision in general cost a few million dollars ten or twenty years ago. Now it's a readily available service already built into the Android OS. When you have readily available modules to easily do what used to cost huge amounts of money, things suddenly become practical that weren't before.

    Additionally, but in the same vein, the experts doing all the deep study for decades wouldn't have even THOUGHT of how to leverage technologies which were not available at the time. Knowing about the different technologies that are available or likely to become available, one sometimes sees solutions that you wouldn't think about if you weren't familiar with the tools.

    Lastly, in my experience domain experts know a lot about how things are done. Their idea of how things should be done is often based on how they were taught to do it. That's an entirely different mindset from looking at it fresh and considering which methods are actually best suited to the current situation. I've been able to significantly improve processes simply by asking "why"? "Why is this data held in a Word document (actually three versions of the same document) rather than a spreadsheet?". The domain experts knew exactly which version of the Word document to send to each person, and had procedures for change control so that updates to one version normally ended up being reflected in the other versions. I pointed out the "hide column" menu item in Excel and now they no longer need to maintain three different copies of the data in order to look at different sets of attributes.

  23. Nonsense by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    failing fast is a way to learn even faster.

    This can't possibly be true. If it were...

    For Democrats: Congress would be full of rocket scientists by now.

    For Republicans: Obama would be a Republican by now.

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  24. They say "Learn from you mistakes" by readin · · Score: 1

    You can only learn from the mistakes if you have the courage to make mistakes.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  25. Poor vocabulary by Livius · · Score: 1

    I really don't get the fashion of saying 'fail' when they really mean 'take risks'. They aren't the same thing, and a lot of people misunderstand before they think about it. It's very easy to fail without risk of success or learning.

  26. fail fast by jds91md · · Score: 1

    "Fail fast, fail frequently, fail cheap" I forget the book I read that in. --Josh

  27. All in the definition by DriveDog · · Score: 1

    I suppose it depends on how you define "failed". In my book, no way was Google Glass a failure. If you think they meant to make megabucks by selling a product, sure... but I can't imagine that that's what they expected to occur. It was a big experiment, and a lot of data was collected from it.