Slashdot Mirror


Public Records Request Returns 4.6M License Plate Scans From Oakland PD

schwit1 points out a report from Ars Technica on how they used a public records request to acquire an entire License Plate Reader dataset from the Oakland Police Department. The dataset includes 4.6 million total reads from 1.1 million unique plates. They built a custom visualization tool to demonstrate how this data could be abused. "For instance, during a meeting with an Oakland city council member, Ars was able to accurately guess the block where the council member lives after less than a minute of research using his license plate data. Similarly, while "working" at an Oakland bar mere blocks from Oakland police headquarters, we ran a plate from a car parked in the bar's driveway through our tool. The plate had been read 48 times over two years in two small clusters: one near the bar and a much larger cluster 24 blocks north in a residential area—likely the driver's home." Though the Oakland PD has periodically deleted data to free up space — the 4.6 million records were strewn across 18 different Excel spreadsheets with hundreds of thousands of lines each — there is no formal retention limit.

113 comments

  1. Excel spreadsheets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF?

    1. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Sowelu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They probably meant CSVs.

    2. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by twdorris · · Score: 0

      Where are mod points when I need them? Thanks for the laugh.

    3. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Lodlaiden · · Score: 2

      Excel spreadsheets are what "The Business" uses when "you IT folks" can't make a "reasonable" system that retains all data forever fast enough.

      --
      Suborbital [spaceflight] is the special olympics of spaceflight. - Rei
    4. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My SQL Server instances retain whatever they want as fast as they want it. But when they want data *out*, they use the giant piece of garbage known as Excel.

    5. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My SQL Server instances ...

      So do enter data do I telnet in a VAX server, and hit Stop-Control-A on my SparcStation 10 to access the records? Or is there some user interface that is no more complicated than Excel that a non-programmer could get up and going?

      Plus who wants to hire IT guys, it's not like the neighboring city of San Francisco has had much luck with IT staff.

    6. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by neurovish · · Score: 1

      Excel spreadsheets are what "The Business" uses when "you IT folks" can't make a "reasonable" system that retains all data forever fast enough.

      Is it too late to eradicate The Business from workspeak? It's gone too far where I spend most of my days, and now we have a guy who will refer to a single person as The Business and invoke The Business when asking for anything he doesn't want us to question. In one email exchange with him going back and forth talking about The Business, I deduced that The Business really did not know what it wanted and was making nonsensical requests. In trying to get a representative for The Business that I could talk to directly, he told me that The Business was just one of our BSAs with a tenuous grasp of technology.

    7. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by ckatko · · Score: 0

      Technically, if you're using CSVs at all, you're doing something wrong. CSVs are the guilty hack work-around for when proper methods don't work.

    8. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds like something an inexperienced kid would say. CSV can be imported into any other data tool on the planet. There is nothing more robust or future-proof than CSV.

    9. Re:Excel spreadsheets? by Lodlaiden · · Score: 1

      2 problems:

      The Business is a generic alias for "whoever" is doing the asking. It's a polite way to not point fingers at crazy requests.

      It is usually those that have just mastered Excel for The Business that are causing the problems. I've seen Excel workbooks which referenced other workbooks and did queries against Access and SQL databases. I was amazed that it worked.

      --
      Suborbital [spaceflight] is the special olympics of spaceflight. - Rei
  2. Retention by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    leads to rendition. how long can you hold your breath?

  3. Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    If you have a drivers license, the cops already have your address - they don't need to guess. There are still too many people driving around with expired plates and no insurance.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you even read the text above????

      Via public records request, they were able to guess the whereabouts and the home location of one of the plates (the officers plate). You get the plate of someone you like/hate/wish to stalk... You then use this public data to then stalk them and gleam information off of it.

      it will all keep on going until some congressman gets caught cheating because of this, then it will all end quick.

    2. Re:Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's pulling statistics. True or otherwise its not the first time I've heard this. I also know of people who drive without a drivers license.

    3. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I would ask you the same - did YOU read the text above - it says that they were able to figure out the home address of a city councilor - not exactly private information, and someone who was parked at a bar near a police station and in a residential area - probably a bar employee. No mention whatsoever of tracking a cops plates

      If you own a home, pay municipal taxes, are on a voting list, sued or gotten sued, have gotten married or divorced recently, your name and address are publicly available. Please loosen the tinfoil hat :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    4. Re:Big deal ... not! by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      What did the authorities say when you reported this violation?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    5. Re: Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, so what if you're none of these? The only thing you've proven is that somebody who knows something about you can get more info. This is about someone who knows nothing personal about you learning all kinds of things. Plus of course none of those other records you mentioned will tell anyone where you've been recently.

      Even in this day and age getting that info legitimately isn't trivial unless you have privileged access to something.

      Quit defending this crap.

    6. Re:Big deal ... not! by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They can also figure out the address of anywhere you go regularly. That means your workplace, your friends' homes, the bar you hang out at, your mistresses' house, your drug dealer, etc.... any of which could open you up to blackmail or worse.

      That last one might -- might -- be a valid thing for the cops to care about, but the rest aren't. Yet they still have the information, and that's a problem. Remember, even if you aren't a criminal, the cop looking through the records might be.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:Big deal ... not! by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Excellant point. The question to me is how long do you retain the data? At some point where does the potential value of having the record cease to exceed the potential damage from privacy concerns?

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    8. Re:Big deal ... not! by gewalker · · Score: 1

      Due to a project I've worked on I know that depending on the state, that most likely 20-30% of of vehicles do not have valid insurance. I've heard this both from high level BMV and law enforcement. Just because you pass a law does not mean that it will be obeyed.

    9. Re:Big deal ... not! by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      You don't need a license plate reader to discover vehicles with expired registration or that are uninsured. The insurance companies already report to the DMV, as required by state law. And the DMV really does know who has been renewing registration or at least filing the proper PNO forms (planned non-operation), because they've fined me on being late in the past and threatened to suspend my driver's license if I didn't sort it out by their deadline.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    10. Re:Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need a license plate reader to discover vehicles with expired registration or that are uninsured. The insurance companies already report to the DMV, as required by state law. And the DMV really does know who has been renewing registration or at least filing the proper PNO forms (planned non-operation), because they've fined me on being late in the past and threatened to suspend my driver's license if I didn't sort it out by their deadline.

      What the fuck kind of fascist bullshit is a NPO form? Tell them to get fucked, the law cannot and does not require you to have insurance on your vehicle unless you are operating it on the public roads. Even requiring registration is largely bullshit, but they loophole that with "property tax" reasons.
      Seriously, what state do you live in that pulls this shit? And exactly how do they have records about the insurance and registration of the other 49 states, hmmm?

    11. Re: Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 0

      I pointed out that the councilors exact home address was already public record, so there was no need to get an approximate address by going through millions of records, and that your claim that they got the officers plate was not backed up by the text (summary) that you referred to - you made an unwarranted assumption.

      So now you change the goalposts. Okay - why would you even want information about someone who you don't even know who they are, where they are, where they live or work, or what? How would you know you're getting the right person? Your current example is so contrived it doesn't make any sense.

      As for "telling you where someone has been recently", since all this data is entered into spreadsheets for analysis, the time delay won't tell you where someone was earlier today, or last night, or yesterday morning, or the day before,

      It also won't tell you where someone's been who takes public transit, rides a bicycle, rollerblades, or walks. That's a good chunk of the population that is totally off the radar to this.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    12. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      No they can't. I take public transit, bicycle, and walk (you know - BMW - bus, metro, walk). Anyone who doesn't want to be tracked can do the same, and it will be good for the environment, their waistline, and their budget as well.

      They're more likely to catch you going to a drug dealer or prostitute by keeping a watch on them than on you. The Obama and Bush Jr had drug problems - nobody cares. And Clinton - well, in the end nobody cared about Lewinsky and everyone else either.

      You won't get far blackmailing someone with no power. And blackmailing someone with power just provides them with a photo op and you with jail time. Opinions have changed in the 21st century.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    13. Re: Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Note : I'm not the original poster.

      The reason for the focus on the councilor is that their address can be verified against what the data is suggesting it is, so you can demonstrate that the exercise to identify a home address purely from the data is feasible.

      One reason I can think of for wanting to know all those details about a complete stranger could be so that I can break into their house and steal stuff. I'm not necessarily bothered about any specific person, it's the patterns in the data that I care about.

      I use this data to find out that licence plate number ABC123 is housed at 555 Main Street, and is always at the gym on the other side of town every Thursday evening between 7 and 9. That's useful info for a burglar. In and of itself it doesn't guarantee the house is empty at those times, but a scouting expedition in person would address that problem. And I can likely find hundreds of similar opportunities.

    14. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Maybe we should re-examine our assumption of "potential damage from privacy concerns." What damage, really? Most people get so worried that their darkest secrets will be revealed. In an age when alcoholic crack-smoking politicians get re-elected (Rob Ford comes to mind), nobody really cares what you do, as long as you're not hurting yourself.

      Case in point - a decade ago one of our federal politicians was asked if she smoked weed. Her answer? "Hell, yes. And I inhaled." Nobody cares. It's getting VERY hard to blackmail someone. They're gay or lesbian or trans? BFD. They're doing drugs? BFD. They're having sex with someone outside of marriage? BFD. They've got a mental illness such as PTSD or major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder or schizophrenia? BFD.

      Joe McCarthy is long dead.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    15. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You still need the license plate reader to catch the people without valid license plates. Sending a notice to their (probably former) address won't do anything.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    16. Re:Big deal ... not! by jacksdl · · Score: 1

      This is why we need to get some version of a judicial warrant justification as a prerequisite for the use of these datasets. If the police can convince a judge that a person is probably involved in a serious plot or conspiracy, it would be very useful to find out where he/she has been hanging out and with whom. If the cop wants to check up on his ex-wife ... then maybe not. The existence of the datasets and how their use is justified needs to be a matter of public record.

    17. Re:Big deal ... not! by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      Celebrities deal with what the majority thinks. Everyone else has to deal with the people around them, whose beliefs and actions can significantly deviate from the public at large. For a regular person, your sexual preference or religion (just to name two examples) can still invite prejudice and violence in some areas of the country.

      Given how quickly and severely those prejudices can change, I would just assume keep my privacy. Just look at the reaction to those following Islam pre- and post-9/11. While my particular tastes and idiosyncrasies may not put me in any danger today, I'll make no bets about tomorrow.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    18. Re: Big deal ... not! by Deagol · · Score: 1

      > It also won't tell you where someone's been who takes public transit, rides a bicycle, rollerblades, or walks. That's a good chunk of the population that is totally off the radar to this.

      You're correct. "They" will just track your phone's WiFi MAC address around town, and your face with cameras.

      You seem to be ignoring the incremental nature of us frogs and the increasingly hot water we're sitting in.

      The more data sets available for correlation, the more accurate and complete a picture "they" can get.

      You seem to be fine with this seemingly inevitable future we're racing towards. Some of us are concerned, if not outright worried.

    19. Re: Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      One reason I can think of for wanting to know all those details about a complete stranger could be so that I can break into their house and steal stuff.

      You can already get that from their twitter feed or facebook page, and it's much more dependable.

      It's also defeated if they own a big dog - the burglar will go elsewhere.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    20. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Celebrities deal with what the majority thinks. Everyone else has to deal with the people around them, whose beliefs and actions can significantly deviate from the public at large. For a regular person, your sexual preference or religion (just to name two examples) can still invite prejudice and violence in some areas of the country.

      Of course, but it's better to stand up and be counted than to be on your knees in shame. Otherwise, you've given your tacit approval to being mistreated. Act like you're ashamed of who or what you are, and people will use that against you, same as in a schoolyard where the kids always know who's the easiest one to pick on.

      Just look at the reaction to those following Islam pre- and post-9/11

      Here it's been pretty muted, except for some idiots who think that anyone who isn't white and doesn't follow their views is a non-person.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    21. Re: Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 0

      I just don't care because really, if people want to follow me around, they can't have much of a life. It's not like I have any secrets, so let them waste their time on me. If it uses up resources that would otherwise be directed at someone else, you should be happy that's my attitude.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    22. Re:Big deal ... not! by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

      Remember, even if you aren't a criminal, the RANDOM PERSON looking through the records might be.

      This information is available through FOIA request. So, FTFY.

    23. Re: Big deal ... not! by Deagol · · Score: 1

      There is no Spy vs Spy character hiding behind trash cans at your subway station watching your every move. This stuff is automated Big Data with a dash of expert system and AI wizardry sprinkled on top

      We can agree to disagree about whether this stuff is a valid concern for the average individual. But when things like laws, public policy, and commercial interests (insurance rates, hiring practices, etc.) are heavily influenced by what the Eye of Sauron sees, everyone should be concerned about what is collected.

    24. Re:Big deal ... not! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      License plate scanners are a precursor to facial recognition. It's not something we can ignore.

    25. Re: Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be ignoring the incremental nature of us frogs and the increasingly hot water we're sitting in.

      ...so, you mean to say we will decide to jump out of the water once it gets uncomfortably hot?

      *Please* stop using this meme. It was disproven long ago. Hell, it's even on Snopes. Do you want to be spreading misinformation and get hit by Snopes links? Seriously, what next? Claiming that you can stand an egg or a broom on end during the equinox due to planetary alignment/axial tilt magic?

      Just stop. I afree with your other points, but using the frog-boiling water meme makes you appear ignorant and undermines your point.

    26. Re: Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 0

      And that's why we have laws to prevent misuse. And why we'll pass more laws as more problems arise. Other countries manage to do it.

      Besides, if someone doesn't want to hire me because of who I am, I don't want to work there.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    27. Re: Big deal ... not! by Deagol · · Score: 1

      Dude, just chill. Everyone knows WTF the reference is to, regardless of the scientific accuracy. It's referenced in literature, movies, TV. Just get over yourself.

      If I had used "proverbial frogs" in my post, would that have not knotted your undies so badly?

      Shaka, when the walls fell.

    28. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      So what? What is everyone so paranoid about? Just who is going to use that data against you? The only people who can be blackmailed are those who can be shamed. We have universal health care and drug care up here, so the government knows I've got PTSD and major depressive disorder, that I've had my antidepressant meds changed 4 time in the last year, and that I see a psychiatrist on a regular basis. Nobody can blackmail me with that because I don't care - it's not something to be ashamed of.

      They also know that I was diagnosed as trans decades ago. And nobody can blackmail me with that either, because it's not something to be ashamed of.

      They also know that I've had serious vision problems which are now more or less under control, but that I'll eventually go blind. So what? Are they going to suspend my drivers license? Too late - I already let it lapse because I don't think that my "right" to drive includes endangering others.

      Nobody can make you buy something, so all these "big data marketing" plays are wasted if you understand that and are willing to exert a certain level of autonomy. Same with who your friends are. Heck, pay me enough and I'll carry around a bodycam all day - but you WILL be bored.

      People need to take a deep breathe and realize that knowledge, in this case, is NOT power over you unless you let it be.

      Don't do anything that you don't want to see as the lead item in the evening news or on the front page of tomorrow's paper, and you'll be fine.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    29. Re: Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next up: you support your arguments with references to ships traveling too far and falling off the edge of the earth.

      But, you know, everyone knows the reference. Get over yourself.

    30. Re:Big deal ... not! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      There's always someone willing to argue that privacy is only necessary for those with something to hide. It's always proven to be a specious and foolish argument. I'm also a pretty public person who tends to overshare. That doesn't mean I don't value privacy.

    31. Re:Big deal ... not! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I've never used that argument. Peoples privacy wishes SHOULD be respected. At the same time, I think that the more open you are about yourself, the more other people will get to know the real you and trust you.

      In a way it's a trade-off. But really, people are talking about blackmail and other paranoid examples of how your private info can be used against you by the police, the government, big business, etc. You know, the "usual suspects." That's more than a bit paranoid.

      One of the examples is how you can be discriminated for health insurance coverage if they know your full medical history. This ignores the fact that your policy would be voided if there were pre-existing conditions or other significant risk factors that you didn't declare.

      The real way to avoid this problem is to have universal health and drug coverage, the same as many other countries. No need for private medical coverage, so no invasive questions.

      Every year, there are fewer and fewer ways to blackmail someone, because so many of the social strictures from a more prudish time are gone. So, even if they have the information, they can't use it to coerce you.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    32. Re:Big deal ... not! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      That healthcare thing is invalid due to the ACA, thanks Obama. I'm not worried about blackmail. I'm just worried about the million ways that years or decades of information on my movements can be abused. I'm sure I haven't thought of most of them because I'm not a sociopath. Unfortunately, there are plenty out there.

    33. Re:Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US if you ever smoked the green stuff and bought a gun, that is a felony (for lying on your 4473) and that means you lose your voting and gun rights for life. Meaning you cannot protect yourself and family.

      Its being naive, not paranoid, to ignore the dangers of the govt.

    34. Re:Big deal ... not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And those records are available to any random person who requests.

    35. Re:Big deal ... not! by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      I dealt with this. Plead no contest to driving without insurance because I didn't have it on me at the time and couldn't make the court date (had a mfg job, it was 2009 and 1/3rd of the company was laid off that month). I asked if I could swing by the police station later and show my insurance, he said said no- bring it to court. So plead no contest ($149 fine, cheaper than losing my job I thought). Was put on SR22 insurance and 4 years later during a 2 week thanksgiving vacation I let my insurance lapse for a few days as I wasn't driving and knew it, figured I'd save a couple of dollars by renewing on Sunday when I started driving again. Never drove once without insurance but I received a license suspension notice in the mail a few days earlier. Had to submit several forms and pay fees despite never doing anything wrong.

      Govt's watch you like a hawk and come down with great swiftness if you hiccup in the slightest.

  4. curious about one possible query.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many police officer's personal vehicles show up at crack houses within previous 3 months of being raided?

  5. Sort of redundant by camg188 · · Score: 1

    All this information could also be legally found out by following a person around.

    1. Re:Sort of redundant by bwwatr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a common, but flawed, response to many types of privacy invasion. The thing is, scale matters. The aggregation of lots of data that could otherwise only be had by exerting effort (following someone, staking out a home, etc.) reduces the level of effort required to infringe someone's privacy, and greatly increases the chances that someone's privacy will be infringed. This is why forcing cops to get warrants is considered a good part of the justice system, while the mass "perusal" of aggregated information is considered bad (for privacy).

    2. Re:Sort of redundant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All 1.1 million cars?
      At the same time?
      With one request?

    3. Re:Sort of redundant by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Nope. Because it's impossible for a government to follow everyone. Because to have that many watchers would bankrupt the country. It would take $100k per year or more to follow me. So the theory doesn't matter because the reality is "no".

    4. Re:Sort of redundant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess you've never heard of computers, searches, and automated agents.

      Captcha: trusting

    5. Re:Sort of redundant by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      This is a common, but flawed, response to many types of privacy invasion. The thing is, scale matters. The aggregation of lots of data that could otherwise only be had by exerting effort (following someone, staking out a home, etc.) reduces the level of effort required to infringe someone's privacy, and greatly increases the chances that someone's privacy will be infringed. This is why forcing cops to get warrants is considered a good part of the justice system, while the mass "perusal" of aggregated information is considered bad (for privacy).

      Aggregation of data is an invasion of privacy because it lowers the level of effort and increases the chances of an invasion of privacy? Nobody is going to test that tortured logic? You're fighting a losing battle against time and technology with this thinking.

      Nobody needs a warrant or special permission to tail someone in public. Intuition is not a violation of privacy. Anyone can aggregate this information, and anyone can collect it. A single smartphone could sweep up thousands of plates a day, and anyone can do it.

      I'm not concerned about it, because what can you do? There'll be a day when everybody's watch or glasses could do this.

    6. Re:Sort of redundant by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      All this information could also be legally found out by following a person around.

      Nope.

      Guess you've never heard of computers, searches, and automated agents.

      I'm confused. How does a computer help someone follow me around? The cost to follow a person loosely would be $50k minimum, more likely $150k. To follow a person more tightly (follow them if they know and are trying to lose you) is going to cost more than $1M per person followed per year. That's why the police loves it. They can track everyone in the area for one low cost.

    7. Re:Sort of redundant by joe_frisch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The risk of large scale surveillance is that it can generate data sets that can be mined for information. Tracking can show networks of friends, attendance at political rallies, books read, movies watched, foods and alcohol consumed. Does this pattern match for a potential terrorist - can't prove anything, but maybe you shouldn't keep your job at Lockheed, or should get extra screening at the airport? Did you watch "little miss sunshine" too many times for your demographic - could mean you are a pedophile - maybe you shouldn't have a job as a school teacher - think of the children.

      Which political information should you see? Candidates can target their adds to YOU specifically. Same for news, and advertising.

      Maybe you don't get enough sleep, or are found to meet women ( or other men) at bars and take them home. Sounds like "statistically" you might be a health risk and your insurance rates will go up.

      Large scale tracking, data collection and analysis allow for statistical pattern matches. The public might be happy that a new system has a only 1% failure rate, and only a 10% false positive rate for recognizing people who are a danger to children - unless you are in that 10%

    8. Re:Sort of redundant by JimSadler · · Score: 2

      It is really quite a stretch of the imagination to think that a license plate contains any private information. And really it is not even a modern issue. In Virginia in the 1940s the city paid a bounty on a car found with an expired tag and the hunt started at midnight. People looking to get a reward would open garage doors into the wee hours and shine a light on the license plates. Think about it. Virginia actually allowed penetration of closed garages in the wee hours by civilians just to assure that everyone had purchased their license plate on time. In our case the garage was behind our home so they walked through our lawn or driveway into the back yard and raised and opened the garage door. And one might have that happen more than once in an evening as many people were eager to earn the bounties.

    9. Re:Sort of redundant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a common, but flawed, response to many types of privacy invasion. The thing is, scale matters. The aggregation of lots of data that could otherwise only be had by exerting effort (following someone, staking out a home, etc.) reduces the level of effort required to infringe someone's privacy, and greatly increases the chances that someone's privacy will be infringed. This is why forcing cops to get warrants is considered a good part of the justice system, while the mass "perusal" of aggregated information is considered bad (for privacy).

      Aggregation of data is an invasion of privacy because it lowers the level of effort and increases the chances of an invasion of privacy? Nobody is going to test that tortured logic? You're fighting a losing battle against time and technology with this thinking.

      Nobody needs a warrant or special permission to tail someone in public. Intuition is not a violation of privacy. Anyone can aggregate this information, and anyone can collect it. A single smartphone could sweep up thousands of plates a day, and anyone can do it.

      I'm not concerned about it, because what can you do? There'll be a day when everybody's watch or glasses could do this.

      There's a difference between a private person doing something, and the government doing something. The government is not supposed to be investigating or compiling dossiers on citizens without having a reason- there is no restriction against private people doing so. The government is supposed to have a tighter restriction on activities they can conduct as part of the balance of giving them extraordinary power which a normal citizen does not.

  6. Past data vs future data by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Future data - If I decide you are someone who I do not like, I can simply follow you around and log locations. But if you suspect me, you can change your habits.
    Past data - With access to this data, I can see where you've been. Last week, last month, last year

    1. Re:Past data vs future data by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      Do you think it is reasonable for a cop who gets information that you have been in a bar for five hours stop you when you get in your car and do a drunk driving test? You and i both know that there is surely a better than 80% chance that a bar patron after five hours in a bar is unfit to drive. Now suppose a computer is used to notify a cop that you are starting to drive away from that bar? To me that seems like reasonable and effective use of police resources.

    2. Re:Past data vs future data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but...but...but...bars have had parking lots with cars in them since there were bars with parking lots.

      If anyone cared about snaring drunks at bars, every car that left a California bar between 1am-2am that didn't have a "TAXI" light on top of it would be pulled over for a sobriety test.

      Now suppose you just want license plate data, stored forever, for nefarious purposes but you're just "think of the children-ing" me?

    3. Re:Past data vs future data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think it is reasonable for a cop who gets information that you have been in a bar for five hours stop you when you get in your car and do a drunk driving test?

      No, it's not. There's nothing in your statement saying they've been drinking anything. Perhaps they were playing the electronic gaming machines. Five hours is a lot of time to sober up. If their driving is fine, then there's no reason to stop them or question them.

      You and i both know that there is surely a better than 80% chance that a bar patron after five hours in a bar is unfit to drive.

      As someone who spent over 20 years tending a Bar, I can pretty safely say that you're nowhere near accurate with your random bullshit statistics.

      Now suppose a computer is used to notify a cop that you are starting to drive away from that bar? To me that seems like reasonable and effective use of police resources.

      And this is exactly the wrong attitude. You're assuming guilt by association with a place, when you have no actual proof or even any good reason. Even if we take your 80% number as fact for a moment, that still means you've just wrongly accused 20% of the patrons of the place. If you don't like the concept of Presumption of Innocence then you're more than welcome to leave and go live in a society which does not have it. It exists for very good reasons, and if you don't understand them then you need to educate yourself and stay out of the voting booth until you do.

  7. obscure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Slide on TFA says that the reads are taken from the IR camera. I have wondered in the past if illuminating the license with IR, or covering the license with a film which has different IR and optical properties might be enough to screw up the OCR. Intersting.

    1. Re:obscure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except it's illegal...
      California Vehicle Code 5201.1:

      5201.1. (a) A person shall not sell a product or device that obscures, or is intended to obscure, the reading or recognition of a license plate by visual means, or by an electronic device as prohibited by subdivision (c) of Section 5201.
            (b) A person shall not operate a vehicle with a product or device
      that violates subdivision (a).
            (c) A person shall not erase the reflective coating of, paint over the reflective coating of, or alter a license plate to avoid visual or electronic capture of the license plate or its characters by state or local law enforcement.
            (d) A conviction for a violation of this section is punishable by a fine of two hundred fifty dollars ($250) per item sold or per violation.

      http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=05001-06000&file=5200-5206

  8. Wrong place at the wrong time.... by JimMcc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My biggest fear of this technology is that people may be investigated for no reason other than that their car was seen in close proximity to where a crime was committed. Police and district attorneys have been found to fit the evidence to match an individual. This has lead to, at a minimum an extended "interview" at the police station, and at a maximum being put to death. Was your car parked at the entrance to an alley while you picked up a pizza at the same time somebody was raped in the alley? How much money do you have for an attorney?

     

    1. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not only this, be ready for much more when every cop car in the country has license plate scanners installed. Driving in residential neighborhood past sunset other than where your plates are registered at? Get ready to be pulled over and have to explain to some cop why you are there.

    2. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by bhlowe · · Score: 1

      I'd happily trade a little freedom for more security. slash sarcasm

    3. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by volmtech · · Score: 0

      Or it could exonerate you. Some years back a black office worker went to lunch. A crime was committed some miles away by a black man. The police zeroed in on this guy even though he would have to have driven over the speed limit all the way to and from the crime scene and had green lights all the way. Even though people swore they saw him have lunch a few blocks from his office he couldn't prove where he was.

    4. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you picked up your pizza you'd still be at the right place at the right time.

    5. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My biggest fear of this technology is that people may be investigated for no reason other than that their car was seen in close proximity to where a crime was committed.

      Your second biggest fear should be that the police will CLAIM your car was near a crime, so why don't you come in and chat, meanwhile they're seeking to prosecute you for ANOTHER crime.

    6. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      My biggest fear of this technology is that people may be investigated for no reason other than that their car was seen in close proximity to where a crime was committed.

      So... you'd completely ignore that information, or what?

    7. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My biggest fear of this technology is that people may be investigated for no reason other than that their car was seen in close proximity to where a crime was committed.

      My biggest fear is that this technology will be used to investigate anyone who challenges the powerful. Like the way the FBI tried to blackmail MLK Jr. The ability to retroactively look back at anyone's movements means that even if today you are utterly boring and of no interest to anyone beyond your friends and family, the minute you do become interesting to someone with enough power, they can "press rewind" on your life and start looking for ways to get leverage on you.

    8. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by gewalker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Probably would not be useful to exonerate as it would only say where your car was, not where you were. For some reason, circumstantial incriminating evidence is is often more likely to be accepted than exculpatory evidence. Of course, it should be the other way around. A good defense lawyer flips this back in your favor.

    9. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by boomer_rehfield · · Score: 1

      I got pulled by one and thought it was bs at first. "No, something is screwed up." Turns out my insurance had lapsed because I screwed up auto pay, and therefore my license had been suspended. He was facing traffic and I even looked at him when I passed, but his plate reader was mounted on his trunk. All in all, as much as I felt screwed, I'm kinda glad he pulled me and I didn't find out by getting into an accident without insurance.

      --
      Carpe Canem - Seize the Dog
    10. Re:Wrong place at the wrong time.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no requirement to have insurance in order to hold a valid driving license; insurance is linked to the vehicle.

  9. This is why these can't be public records by Enry · · Score: 1

    Just like cameras on police. There needs to be a retention policy and those policies need to be met unless there's a reason to retain them longer (like a court order).

    1. Re:This is why these can't be public records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, 30 days retention should be plenty, and public records request should have a 31 day delay

    2. Re:This is why these can't be public records by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Just like cameras on police.

      Actually, just like cameras on police, this data should not be automatically released to the public. If a journalist makes a FOI request, the police should be required to tell them how many license plates were scanned, how the data was used, how many prosecutions/convictions resulted, etc. But the bulk data should NOT have been released. Likewise with cop cams. If the cop interviews a rape victim, there is no reason that the video should be released to the public so it can be posted on Youtube.

    3. Re:This is why these can't be public records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still, this all assumes we can trust the poilce with this data. Clearly, we can't. Therein lies a serious problem.

    4. Re: This is why these can't be public records by Melbourne+Pete · · Score: 1

      Why is the issue here the FOI request and the records being made public and not the fact that a branch of the government is collecting that massive amount of data in the first place? The government can abuse that date more efficiently than any member of the public can.

    5. Re: This is why these can't be public records by merky1 · · Score: 1

      You my friend have never worked in government...

      --
      --WooooHoooo--
    6. Re:This is why these can't be public records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YEs, you want that video released to the public.

      You NEED that video released to the public.

      Otherwise, it never makes it to trial.

    7. Re: This is why these can't be public records by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      That's obviously because we can trust the police and other authorities more than the general public. Authorities would never abuse massive surveillance databases.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
  10. Soon you can too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soon every web cam will front end a plate reader. A web service will exist to consume submittals, and it will crawl the web looking for plates and data like the ad networks do now. A database of all public officials and where they've been tracked on the private plate network will be amusing. It's only a matter of time.

  11. 1.1 MILLION people?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is bulk surveillance data, you could not follow 1.1 million people around individually, but the police clearly are logging the location and time where they go via automatic number plate readers.

    Imagine the sort of data Uber God mode offers. That one 'an employee' said was used to track a journalist critical of them, and he was promptly sacked.

    Who is with whom, who is having an affair with who, where their kids go to school, if they see a source of a story, or investigate something, all that location data is there in Ubers hands. Metadata smetadata.

  12. City Council Address by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's probably public information anyways, most homeowner records are.

  13. wow.. resounding success though.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "four LPR units for 16 months, it had read 793,273 plates and had 2,012 hits—a “hit rate” of 0.2 percent"

    Depending on what counts as a hit... (too many traffic tickets count or only get away cars/stolen cars?) this is a really big success.

    That comes out to about 377 instances where a car was wanted by the cops found per camera per year. A cop doing that manually would get what? 1 a year?

    At that rate I might actually get my stolen car back. Fix the privacy issues so we can roll this out in the hundreds of thousands!

    1. Re:wow.. resounding success though.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Fix the privacy issues"

      Yeah, about that....

    2. Re:wow.. resounding success though.. by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Did those hits actually result in a vehicle being stopped and possibly recovered? I seem to remember seeing several cases where police departments were collecting all this data but only ever using it for pet cases and ignoring plenty of low hanging fruit. The one that sticks out in my memory at the moment was were a wanted person's vehicle, drove past the same camera's everyday on the same schedule but they never checked to see if the wanted person was driving it.

  14. Anti-abortion protestors in Texas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The anti-abortion protestors already do this, they record license plates at abortion clinics and try to follow people. This would give them a big chunk of surveillance data to locate where they live, their job, the kids schools, their friends, their hangouts, their shopping mall,....

    They've committed no crime, so why do the police keep innocent peoples data?

    Why would you put the private data of innocent people in the hands of every random nutter, some of which have a uniform and a gun?

    1. Re:Anti-abortion protestors in Texas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess Texas has no anti-stalker laws to fry these nutcases with?

  15. They need to sell this ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... to advertisers, insurance companies, NSA ...

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  16. Ubiquity is unavoidable by bhlowe · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Even if the police make this data private, the general population will jump in to make this (and most) data such as this freely available. A small box located near your mailbox will be able to record every car that drives by and capture video of anyone walking by.

    This technology is already available in the flying world-- where FlightAware makes a plane tracker that publishes flight data from the skies to the public.

    Take away lesson is your data will be mined. If you think license plate data is a breach, just wait for ubiquitous facial recognition data going to the public domain.

    Brave new world!

    1. Re:Ubiquity is unavoidable by stephanruby · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even if the police make this data private, the general population will jump in to make this (and most) data such as this freely available.

      Actually, there are private companies that already do this. They drive around streets and parking lots scanning people's license plates. Then they aggregate that information on a national level to resell to other companies. This data is really handy for car/truck repos, private detectives, and stalker exes.

      And the information they have dwarves any information the police department has themselves. It's such a new area, it's not regulated yet.

    2. Re:Ubiquity is unavoidable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is what it looks like on the street
      http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1g9kjr/spotted_outside_a_711_in_nassau_county_ny_a/

    3. Re:Ubiquity is unavoidable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if the police make this data private, the general population will jump in to make this (and most) data such as this freely available. A small box located near your mailbox will be able to record every car that drives by and capture video of anyone walking by.

      This technology is already available in the flying world-- where FlightAware makes a plane tracker that publishes flight data from the skies to the public.

      Take away lesson is your data will be mined. If you think license plate data is a breach, just wait for ubiquitous facial recognition data going to the public domain.

      Brave new world!

      I don't think the real issue here is in regards to the availability of the data. Your license plate data is a matter of public record and information can be requested via the DMV. I think the issue is more that the data is being retained in databases and can be analyzed to determine patterns of behavior. Thus one can use the data not just to see where you live but establish what you are doing over time. For example, if it can be established from the LPR database that a person visits a bar frequently (maybe not to drink but because they like the food) then it may be deduced the person has a drinking problem. If that person was be investigated for a clearance they need for work it might be declined on that basis.

    4. Re:Ubiquity is unavoidable by Reziac · · Score: 1

      This weekend I saw a guy apparently picnicking across the road from my house. After a while I went over to see WTF, and turns out he was working for a mapping company (and the company drone was flying overhead, snapping photos). He told me that their maps are accurate to within 1/8th inch.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  17. Pubic records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are aware that the addresses of voters are public records readily available.

    1. Re:Pubic records by freak0fnature · · Score: 1

      same with property owners. In fact many counties have that information available online free of charge.

  18. This is why these MUST be public records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The amount of data that the police collect is tiny compared to that collected by private business. For $10 you can get access to a database of billions of license plate scans. Making the police data secret does not significantly improve anyone's privacy as long as companies like TLO are around with databases that are orders of magnitude larger. So no downside to releasing the data means it needs to be released for basic accountability purposes.

  19. Seattle does the same thing by bobjr94 · · Score: 1

    For about the last 7 years SPD has been parking license plate reading cars around the city and just lets them start scanning everything that passes by. They said it is to look for stolen vehicles, but the records are kept forever even if the plates come up clean.

  20. Far fetched by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "For instance, during a meeting with an Oakland city council member, Ars was able to accurately guess the block where the council member lives after less than a minute of research using his license plate data"

    Couldn't they just get the address from the same place they got his license plate data?

    1. Re:Far fetched by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No... they didn't access the vehicle registration records. The saw where his car was most often parked when it was read by the scanners.

  21. Big deal, yes by phorm · · Score: 1

    Yes, that works great in places where
    a) Public transit service is good (and actually operates during your working hours or when you're planning to travel)
    b) The destination is located near enough to home to allow for walking
    c) Ditto [b] for biking, and isn't too steep
    d) You live somewhere without winter, otherwise scratch (b) and (c) once it snows.

    Around here, if you don't have a vehicle, you've got a 3rd-class lifestyle. Grocery trips take multiple transfers and over an hour travel instead of 10 minutes (and try carrying a dozen bags of groceries on the bus). You can't take your dog to the vet because no pets on transit. And a foot or more of snow in the winter isn't very conducive to walking, let alone biking.

    1. Re:Big deal, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      c) Ditto [b] for biking, and isn't too steep
      d) You live somewhere without winter, otherwise scratch (b) and (c) once it snows.

      We're supposed to stop biking when it snows? I just grab the winter bike with its wide studded tires at very low pressure. I'm cautious that way. Another person at my building has an old rusty bike he commutes on all winter.

      But I'm in Minnesota, so perhaps you mean someplace with a more serious winter. And to be fair, I've taken the bus perhaps three times since the New Year.

      Also, for groceries, you can fit a decent load in a backpack, and more than enough in a nice bike trailer. Also, in my area, I believe pets in a carrier can go on transit.

    2. Re:Big deal, yes by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You're free to move to where there's decent public transit and where everything is within 10-15 km of home. If you can't walk that in a couple of hours you really need to get out more.

      One of the grocery stores I use is about 3-4 km away. In the summer, I hitch a folding grocery buggy to my bike. In the winter, in the snow, I walk it. An hour each way is no big deal. It's good exercise, and at 20 below, you'll walk briskly enough to get there fast.

      As for biking in winter, plenty of cities now clear bicycle lanes in winter. Not just bike lanes, but bike paths as well, which is nice when you want to take a shortcut through the woods.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:Big deal, yes by phorm · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the PERFECT solution to the world's problems is to cram more humans into a small area, right!? Never mind issues of space, crowding, affordability, etc...

    4. Re:Big deal, yes by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      It's more sustainable than McMansions in the exburbs.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    5. Re:Big deal, yes by phorm · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that still doesn't cover a lot of places.
      Here: City of 100k, 400km (248mi) from the nearest 1,000,000+ city,
      My house: 8km (~5mi) from city center
      Bus service: 7:00am->9:00pm hourly. Weekend service ends sooner. Some holidays with no service. Uptown (where much of the shopping is) requires a transfer in town.

      Hardly a McMansion, and not far from city center, but also no way to get by without a car when you work late/early hours, are on-call, and/or don't otherwise want to walk through thick snow in the winter.

      There *IS* a corner-store in my neighbourhood. If I just need a loaf of bread and some tomatoes I happily get some exercise and walk... but for anything more than that - frankly - you need a car.

      (yes, it would be nice to have better bus service, but no luck with that thus far, and sometimes we're lucky if they clear our streets properly during a heavy snow let alone bike lanes).

      Even in bigger cities, weather is sometimes restrictive for travelling by vehicle, let alone by bike or on foot. Further east you're lucky if you can get out of your house in some places.