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Why the Final Moments Inside a Cockpit Are Heard But Not Seen

jones_supa writes: There's no video footage from inside the cockpit of the Germanwings flight that left 150 people dead — nor is such footage recorded from any other commercial airline crash in recent years. Unlike many other vehicles operating with heightened safety concerns, airline cockpits don't come with video surveillance. The reason, in part, is that airline pilots and their unions have argued vigorously against what they see as an invasion of privacy that would not improve aviation safety. The long debate on whether airplane cockpits in the U.S. should be equipped with cameras dates back at least 15 years, when the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) first pushed regulators to require video monitoring following what the agency called "several accidents involving a lack of information regarding crewmember actions and the flight deck environment." The latest NTSB recommendation for a cockpit image system (PDF) came in January 2015. Should video streams captured inside the plane become a standard part of aviation safety measures?

24 of 447 comments (clear)

  1. And what good would it do? by opus_magnum · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We already have a pretty good idea of what happened to the Germanwings flight even with 1 damaged black box.

    1. Re:And what good would it do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mean that the pilot rendered the co-pilot unconscious, re-set the height on the autopilot, then theatrically knocked on the door to make it sound like he was locked out?

      Oh right.

    2. Re:And what good would it do? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The last thing you would have seen on the Germanwings video, would have been a piece of black tape being pasted over the camera lens.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    3. Re:And what good would it do? by segedunum · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We know absolutely nothing, despite the pathetic attempts to convince us otherwise.

      The data recorder would have corroborated everything but of course, that's damaged with its data card missing.

    4. Re:And what good would it do? by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it would have shown it faster and in more definite fashion.

      think about it. 10 small(or just light, space isn't an issue so much as weight) boxes that save the stream, have the memory on robust enough media(flash). the boxes would need to weight a kilo each to be quite robust.

      no invasion of privacy either if there is no accident, so whats the big deal? you would think pilots wanted it too, to clear them from pilot error claims.

      but it's not really just about this flight either, just that the black box system is pretty antiquated - and in many other cases a video could have shed more light to the cockpit actions which caused the crash or caused the pilots to not be able to recover from equipment failure.

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    5. Re:And what good would it do? by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That would tell you quite a bit about the cause.

    6. Re:And what good would it do? by JMJimmy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apparently the pilot is a master at voices.

      Even if that half-assed attempt was true, it doesn't improve the safety - they'd still all be dead. It just gives us the ability to ogle and lay blame.

    7. Re:And what good would it do? by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The purpose of the black boxes is not to convince people who don't want to believe. The purpose is mainly to increase future safety. That can be done whether you believe or not.

    8. Re:And what good would it do? by segedunum · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The purpose of the black boxes is not to convince people who don't want to believe. The purpose is mainly to increase future safety. That can be done whether you believe or not.

      The purpose is to find out what happened and concentrate on that, as opposed to character assassinating a pilot with no evidence whatsoever. Major revelation to grasp that, I know.

    9. Re:And what good would it do? by segedunum · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sure it has.

      What I 'believe' caused a crash means nothing. The evidence for what happened, is.

      Plenty of evidence has been shown.

      There is no evidence whatsoever. A French prosecutor who isn't an air crash investigator has given us a version of events that he believes happened on a recording we have never heard. What's followed is a character assassination of a pilot and a ransacking of his home rather than what happened leading up to the crash. That's all. You have a funny idea as to what constitutes evidence, but that doesn't seem to be unusual these days.

      You choose not to believe it.

      Again, when you start using that word there is a problem.

    10. Re:And what good would it do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow. A team of investigators have had full access to the black box since it was retrieved. This is standard protocol in Europe, where they have mandatory flight safety programs in place for all commercial aviation and very clear protocols in the case of a catastrophic incident (yes, that's an actual class of incident, not emotive language).

      The prosecutor is parroting back what has been written in reports and given to him. He won't even have access to the original recording without supervision.

      Your grounds for being skeptical should come from the fact that the investigation is ongoing, not this kind of straw man.

    11. Re:And what good would it do? by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The prosecutor has made an utterly baseless interpretation of an audio recording that has never been released and has no corroborating evidence.

      There is corroborating evidence. There's testimony from his ex, there's the torn up doctor's notes, there's data from ground control that indicate that the flight control system was set for a descent to 96 feet while flying over the Alps, attempts from the Marseille ground control to contact the pilot, and there's radar data tracking the plane until just before the crash.

      Combine that with the data on the voice recorder, and try to come up with an alternative narrative that fits all of this.

    12. Re:And what good would it do? by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apparently the pilot is a master at voices.

      Even if that half-assed attempt was true, it doesn't improve the safety - they'd still all be dead. It just gives us the ability to ogle and lay blame.

      Root cause analysis is not just about laying blame, it's about finding out where the processes/procedures broke down and how they can be improved to prevent a similar incident in the future.

    13. Re: And what good would it do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I understand that people who know nothing about flying think video is some miracle or something, but the data recorder shows exactly what the controls are set at. Quick: look at the thrust lever. What percentage of max thrust is it set at? You have to guess with video. The data recorder will tell you exactly.

      Why exactly are data recorders antiquated? I mean the concept, not a specific device. This notion that everything should be recorded all the time is idiotic.

      Pilots hate this idea because it will show they are human. They make jokes, complain about work, talk about their weekends, etc. Have an incident and armchair idiots will be putting over every last everything trying to find something to blame it on. Oh, the captain discussed his favorite beer, he must have a drinking problem! Quick: let's go through his entire background until we find someone who one time saw him drunk at a football game and interview that person all week.

      This is why pilots hate this. That and what is to stop their employer from listening in on their conversions? They might be taking about pay, or working conditions, and we have to stop that. The reason data and voice recorders only record a certain period of time started as a technological limitation but pilots insist on it staying that way for good reason. A complete flight needs no record like that. Video idiots of course will want the whole flight recorded, and pilots know this do it had to be stopped. If I have to watch everything I say and comment on every second I'm on duty at my own job, I'm going to be nervous and borderline hostile. That is not what I want my pilot to be.

      Look, if it actually increased safety, as the data and voice recorders have done, they would be all for it. But it won't. It will only have unintended consequences. How about letting the people who do the job have a big say in this and stop the armchair lunacy.

    14. Re:And what good would it do? by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And if we could all watch that in an endless loop on CNN, it would tell us what useful information? We already know that the co-pilot went nutzy-cuckoo and deliberately crashed the plane. We already know he took the pilot out of the picture to do it.

      So surely the answer is to amp up the psychological stress a few more notches because we all know that high stress makes people more likely to go nutzy-cuckoo and that.... HEY, perhaps we shouldn't do that.

    15. Re:And what good would it do? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How the hell is anyone entitled to privacy while on duty?
      That is a fundamentally stupid idea.

      Fuck the pilot's union.

    16. Re:And what good would it do? by buck-yar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is who murdered 150+ people irrelevant?

    17. Re:And what good would it do? by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If this guy was suffering from depression, no background checks or security measures would have filtered him out. Depression is a civilisation disease, caused by the fucked-up society we have created around ourselves, the non-stop pressure, the endless competition, the constant message that you're not good enough that everyone is sending to everyone else. The artificial fear for survival that our governments create to drive wages down and create the economic pressure that corporations than exploit to get people to work under conditions that our parents would've scoffed at.

      The solution is not in more pressure, the solution is in making a society that is made for human beings, not for robots, stock markets, the goddess of economic growth or any of the other crazy things that we're sacrificing millions of lives to.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  2. Re:SpaceShipTwo by bertoelcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know I wouldn't want to be videotaped 24/7 at work.

    Spoken like someone who never worked modern retail. You get over it or you work somewhere else.

    --
    Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
  3. Re:a reversal to the open cockpit doors of the pas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    exactly how many plane hijackings have been prevented by locked doors in the last 14 years ?

    All of them? None of them?

    THE REINFORCEMENT of cockpit doors on most commercial airliners was perhaps the most important change to air travel in the wake of the September 11th attacks.

    There's security theater (screening everyone; banning liquids and gels over a certain amount) and prudent security measures. The only thing were really need is to have a metal detector, bomb sniffer and locked cockpit doors to prevent hijacking of aircraft and their use as flying weapons. That will stop most of the terrorists from hijacking a plane or causing an air disaster.

  4. 15 minutes buffer ? by Pascal+Sartoretti · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A compromise would be to record it on a 15 minutes circular buffer. No privacy issue, except in case of crash.

  5. Re:Conditional recording by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps they could video the cockpit (and the fuselage for that matter) and destroy the footage once the plane has safely landed. There could be streaming capability to the ground and if the feed is accessed, the pilots and crew receive a notification. Any unauthorized breach would be detected immediately. In the case of Germanwings, ground control would have been able to see what's going on once they detected the loss of altitude. It stifles me that in 2015, a young troubled copilot can end 150 lives in a way that can easily be prevented with simple technology.

    While I agree a video would be useful in some cases I do agree with pilots there needs to be a balance between having information in a crash and creating a permeant record of what happens in the cockpit. Something similar to the flight data recorder where data is overwritten on a periodic basis might be a good compromise. Even so, a video record probably won't add that much information since things such as switch positions, throttle settings, instrument readings etc are already being recorded. Unless something unusual happened, such as with Germanwings, you'll basically just have a video record of who did what your audio and telemetry already says. One question is the cost worth it? Adding a few pounds of weight costs a lot of money over the life of a plane and that also needs to be factored into the equation as well.

    As for preventing the Germanwings crash, how would technology such as a streaming videocamera prevent that? The pilot clearly trusted the copilot enough to leave the cockpit so all you have that that point is a video of what is going on but no way to prevent it. The type of technology that might have prevented it, an electronic medical record with automatic notification of employers when a doctor prescribes something that may indicate a lack of fitness for duty or deems a patient unfit for duty might have worked; but that would add its own set of problems nit the least of which is people would stop seeking treatment for conditions that they think could cost them their job.

    --
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  6. Wouldn't really matter by Andy+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Someone like Andreas Lubitz could have just reached up and stuck something over the camera lens. That's if he even cared about being filmed, which is doubtful. From what we're hearing about his desire for notoriety, he'd have probably loved to have those last moments caught on camera and broadcast around the world.

    We're probably going to see a lot of TV news shows and newspapers calling for cameras in cockpits, but it won't be anything to do with safety, it will be because the footage has commercial value to news organisations.

  7. When scores ... by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... even hundreds of people's lives are in your hands, you have no right to an expectation of privacy regarding your actions that directly affect those lives.