EFF Fighting Automakers Over Whether You Own Your Car

An anonymous reader writes: The Digital Millennium Copyright Act contains anti-circumvention prohibitions that affect everything from music files to cell phones. The EFF noticed that it could apply to cars as well, so they asked for an exemption to be put in place so car owners would be free to inspect and modify the code running on their vehicles. It turns out U.S. automakers don't agree — they filed opposition comments through trade associations. "They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right. They say you shouldn't be allowed to modify the code in your car because you might defraud a used car purchaser by changing the mileage. They say no one should be allowed to even look at the code without the manufacturer's permission because letting the public learn how cars work could help malicious hackers, "third-party software developers" (the horror!), and competitors. John Deere even argued that letting people modify car computer systems will result in them pirating music through the on-board entertainment system, which would be one of the more convoluted ways to copy media (and the exemption process doesn't authorize copyright infringement, anyway)."

Comments

If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

If I can't work on my car, I will not buy it. Same with my computer.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[danbob999]

Unfortunately, unlike non-Apple desktop computers, cars aren't designed to be repaired easily. They are designed to look good, so screws are hidden, custom parts are used, and even when there are standard parts (such as tires), they use so many different sizes that you will be lucky to own two cars with the same tire format.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[cygnwolf]

And you think that they auto makers aren't doing that deliberately?

Re:If i can't work on my car

[Anonymous Coward]

Snort, ROFLMFAO. You can still do a lot of things to them. I just had to explain how to adjust idle mixture on cars with an EFI airflow meter, yes it's adjustable but factory sealed and takes less than 60 seconds to remove. Tires? Screw what the sticker on the doorjamb says, change the size and pressure as you see fit, as long as it doesn't have ABS, in which case you're screwed unless you have the dealer program the new tire size in the ABS computer. Some cars you can hook up a laptop and tune away, some need tuner boxes, some can't.

Re:If i can't work on my car

[mi]

And you think that they auto makers aren't doing that deliberately?

No, they don't do it deliberately.

But they deliberately do not not do it either — that is, they don't care to make it easier for you to fix your car or find spare parts.

One thing, that prevents manufacturers from going completely bonkers with a design, is the cost of insurance — if a model is too hard (read "expensive") to fix, your insurance will rise, and smarter consumers — whether they do the repairs themselves or not — take it into consideration before buying. But, being able to do repairs — hardware or software — just is not a factor to most people. Or else Apple's products would never have reached the popularity they now enjoy.

And also, going bonkers with a design is what many people want — Corollas, for example, are very easy to repair (or were 10 years ago). They are still a great model, but I like my Quattro better :)

Re:If i can't work on my car

[DrakonKyrios]

Good luck, the masses are much dumber than you.

Where does this information come from? My whole company that i work for now could do work on a car if they wanted to do the research. What kind of media brainwashing are you listening to or are you basing this on the few people you meet that are as dumb as nails. To add this whole forum includes people who could do the research and complete this, don't spread the misinformation and elitist attitude that the world is dumb, its only helping the media to segregate us.

Re: If i can't work on my car

[Roblimo]

Two years ago traded my 1994 Jeep Cherokee in for a... 1996 Jeep Cherokee. Yes, it's fuel injected and computer-controlled, but everybody from Autozone to Hector at Segundo Auto (a traditional, highly-skilled "Mexican" mechanic from L.A.) has a reader that works on it. Can I fix my Jeep? My eyes are horrid and I'm sick and weak, but up to a point, yes. I still know how, and I still do the light stuff like tuneups and a/c recharges -- essentially annual service. Plus belts and hoses, which I routinely change because as all taxi and limo owners know, rubber is responsible for at least 80% of all road breakdowns. (check my login name - I used to own a small limo service.)

Brakes and more physical work? Hector needs to feed his kids, and he has a hoist and air tools -- and doesn't rip us off. Like when my wife went to the Hyundai dealer for a $19.95 oil change and tire rotation and they gave her a $2000 estimate for a 60,000 mile service (includes timing belt change) and Hector did all the work for $200 - not counting the timing belt kit, which includes the serpentine belt, water pump, and front main seal, that I got online for something like $120.

The day I can't fix my own car or hire someone like Hector instead of going to the dealer is the day I stop driving. Hopefully I'll be dead before things get that messed up.

Seriously?

[grimmjeeper]

They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right

They say that as if the dealers can do it right. Apparently they've never been to a dealer to get their car serviced.

I tried to raise this issue before...

[ckatko]

I tried to raise this issue before... with the Tesla auto-updating your cars firmware without asking the owner of the car first, and how that means they can literally put anything in there without your consent. (NSA GPS tracking anyone?)

Everyone was too busy going "OMG TESLA RULEZ" to care. (A great car sure, but that doesn't mean we need another Apple walled-garden.)

The Car Analogy Come to Life

[Howitzer86]

I'm glad the EFF has taken up this fight. To me there's no symbolic difference between the code controlling the digital throttle in my xB and the cable doing the same thing in my 24 year-old Tercel... except that the Tercel does it better. I'm not sure, but I think the values that represent my throttle pressure aren't as smooth as they could be, and it might be due to it not being a float value.

Wonky throttle values aren't exactly unknown to Toyotas, as Wozniak discovered with his Prius. I probably would be unable to fix this bug, but he could. It's also possible that the somewhat rough transition between super-light pressure and the notch above that is actually a developing issue with my engine (it's not that noticeable, so the nuance leads me to believe it isn't physical - or at least that it could be improved in code).

So what if I could kill someone by editing the code in my xB? I could kill someone by working on my Tercel too. The legal responsibility rests with me either way. There's no real difference except that there exists precedence for controlling what people can do with the code in their gadgets. Perhaps in some crazy parallel universe, not only could automakers argue that the code isn't yours, they could argue that the whole car isn't yours to do with as you please either. I can imagine the same kind of EULA you agree to in software being applicable to the entire vehicle, listing off all the things you can and cannot do to with "your" brand new car. If they say you must go to the dealer for all repairs, then you must do it, and in the event of tempering, they can revoke your license and take your car back from you.

It's really the car analogy come to life. I have no doubt this argument has been made before. It's just that in the past, computers were computers, cars were cars, and if your car had a computer, it was just an 8-bit micro-controller that managed your vacuum control valves and fuel pressure.

Re:Would you like next door kid reprogram his car?

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear to god the shills on this website....

this has nothing to do with the code. Car companies want to stop independent mechanics using software than bypasses the manufacturers electronic locks. The locks are present to give their dealerships a monopoly on car repairs.

Anyone who believes these shill: You are not as smart as you think. Learn to be more skeptical.

Roll your own!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently this is news to slashdotters, but hot rod enthusiasts are able to completely build replicas early model cars. You can build a 1940 Ford Coupe with steel frame and steel body, 1965 small block built to moderrn quality. Not one bit of electronics except for the radio. Street legal.

Nowadays building your own car is like paint by numbers. Note: possessing an indoor garage and automotive tools is recommended before attempting to build your own car.

Re:That car behind you...

[quintessencesluglord]

Which definition of equivalent are you unaware of?

The bit that you are too dense to grasp is that all of your fears are happening NOW. Every single car you see on the road has the possibility of some modification to the mechanicals or EMS. I upgraded to larger brakes. The horror!

The main difference is being able look over the entire code so it is obvious that maximum current is linked to regenerative braking or having to kluge together some code and finding out after the accidents start coming in.

And especially here, arguing for security through obscurity is just delicious.

Re:Would you like next door kid reprogram his car?

[mrchaotica]

How would you feel about, say, 10% of the cars on the road running custom software by the next door kid?

How would you feel about the food you eat being prepared at home by a mere lay "cook" without any formal food service training (shock, horror!) instead of on a McDonalds assembly line?

How would you feel about playing sports with friends instead of having it be prohibited except for "professionals" because somebody might get hurt?

How would you feel about wiping your ass yourself, rather than having to hire a Certified Asswipe to do it for you because you're apparently so fucking incompetent that you might miss a spot and get sick?

They are welding the hood shut!

[Gim Tom]

I remember when the standard analogy comparing open source to proprietary software was, "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" Sound to me like they are wanting to weld the hood shut.

Re:That car behind you...

[quintessencesluglord]

Oh for fucks sake...

If I change timing an a vehicle through software or through larger injectors is irrelevant. I'm changing an operating parameter, but since software is more akin to magic to you, it's nothing that should be trusted to mere mortals.

And beyond your doomsday scenarios, even with complete modification being available now, that hasn't transpired; it's possible, and so should be outlawed. Do you work for DHS by chance?

And the ONLY thing that would change is increasing the cost, as again, you were too dense to catch it, complete EMS systems are available now. Complete motor management systems are available now. By your estimation we should have death tolls, and yet nothing.

There are even critical systems running linux now. No explosions that I'm aware of.

What do you have against empirical evidence anyway?

Further, arguing for safety concerns through the auspices DMCA is disingenuous in the extreme. You are arguing for no modifications, which, allow me to laugh even further. Putting in an aftermarket stereo could overload the electrical systems of a car, sending kittens and babies to a fiery death. Oh dear god.

The only thing patently insulting is your idiocy.