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Microsoft: Feds Are 'Rewriting' the Law To Obtain Emails Overseas
An anonymous reader writes: The Electronic Communications Privacy Act was written in 1986. It's incredibly outdated, yet it still governs many internet-related rights for U.S. citizens. Microsoft has now challenged Congress to update the legislation for how online communications work in 2015. The company is currently embroiled in a legal battle with the government over a court order to release emails stored in a foreign country to U.S. authorities. In a new legal brief (PDF), Microsoft says, "For an argument that purports to rest on the 'explicit text of the statute,' the Government rewrites an awful lot of it. Congress never intended to reach, nor even anticipated, private communications stored in a foreign country when it enacted [the ECPA]." In an accompanying blog post, Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith wrote, "Until U.S. law is rewritten, we believe that the court in our case should honor well-established precedents that limit the government's reach from extending beyond U.S. borders. ... To the contrary, it is clear Congress's intent was to ensure that your digital information is afforded the same legal protections as your physical documents and correspondence, a principle we at Microsoft believe should be preserved."
It's funny when Google, Apple or Microsoft complain about privacy issues.
Some things need to be said...
Fooled ya!
Once upon a time, we expected our intelligence agencies to spy overseas but leave our local privacy alone.
Now, spy agencies tap every domestic communications channel, but apparently spying overseas is bad.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
We do so much to be more efficient yet complain when the world feels smaller.
This whole thing is just a way for Microsoft to try and generate a smokescreen of FUD around the fact that they are just like Apple, Google and Yahoo in that they actually give the NSA access to whatever they want, and have been doing so since at least December 2007.
http://www.theguardian.com/wor...
http://www.theguardian.com/wor...
Warrantless? WTH? Microsoft is fighting a court order.
Would the US tolerate a foreign company operating in the US doing what complies with its home country laws but that violates US laws? I doubt it.
Wow you are an idiot.
Says the AC that took the troll bait.
the $.. there are up for something here and for sure they can go up against google saying, you didn't and therefor you are evil..
But for the actual complaint they have already read it, if you want to communicate effectively and a bit more secure choose the 10 single words you will use to construct your messages, do you own selection on which word for fecal matter that equals each of these words, have a happy life feeding snooping wannabe fascists what they asked for (replace the different types with pictures of these different types of fecal matter every now and then just to make it more interesting).
'what you got there Gary? 'Shit, shit, and more shit.. possibly this one is not shit but if it is.. oh no..'
The ruler came from Symantec dammit. That proves he is a moron and hates us. That company has killed people through starvation by getting them fired. That is what they do. They hate us. Their former ruler now rules Microsoft. He was picked for his race, and as usual, that is a disaster. Thompson is a Republican. That means he wants us dead. By helping terrorists hide email, he will give the Republicans more power after the next successful attack. That is why the Republican xians fight so hard to make sure the Muslims succeed. They love it when people die like on 9/11 that Chenass performed. His chief lieutenanass Rumfuck executed the entire thing, but is so stupid he couldn't plan it. Being the youngest Secretary of Defense/War ever proves he is a moron. You only get promoted that fast if you are so stupid that you hate everyone. That is why the Republicans control our government and nearly every moment of our lives. There is no hope.
and now issues executive orders to have Federal employees to what he wants instead of what the law instructs or allows them to do.
Sure. There's been a lot of companies that are foreign owned but have investments in the US that have undergone investigations. Maybe you could name an actual instance where a foreign based company with a US presence was protected by the US government from being investigated by the foreign company's host country?
The feds cant use a warrant obtained in the USA to require a US based company to hand over physical documents stored in a foreign company, why should they be able to do it for electronic documents?
If the feds REALLY need this data so badly, why dont they just go to Ireland or wherever the data is being held and get a warrant from there?
You're a US based corporation, subject to US law,
Are you certain? Isn't it possible that Microsoft Ireland is a separate corporate entity from Microsoft USA?
Have gnu, will travel.
The feds cant use a warrant obtained in the USA to require a US based company to hand over physical documents stored in a foreign company, why should they be able to do it for electronic documents?
If the feds REALLY need this data so badly, why dont they just go to Ireland or wherever the data is being held and get a warrant from there?
No, most courts have held that an extraterritorial search is reasonable if it complies with the law of the foreign jurisdiction in which the search takes place. And even when an extraterritorial search violates the law of the foreign country, the fruits of the search will not be excluded from a criminal case as long as American law enforcement agents are simply told by a foreign official that the search is legal. Mutual legal assistance agreements between the US and foreign countries allow searches by US law investigators.
You can change your law no matter what, your laws don't extend beyond your own borders.. US laws are not valid in say United kingdom or sweden..
Film at 11. This will really hurt MS's credibility overseas, what little it has. It will drive people to move off Hotmail, Live, and God forbid their Microsoft Account (which is used to login to Windows machines now!!! Can you imagine if BUSH were doing this? I can't stand either Bush or Obama in this area so you partisan hacks know that up front. Only hope is Rand Paul or Ted Cruz at this point (unless you know of others?? I'm seriously open to anyone right now, please respond!). Gay marriage, universal healthcare, yadda yadda.. etc..all are trivial compared to this issue of humongous government that is treating us like subjects not like their bosses.
No, its just a foreign investment by a US company. Like T-Mobile is the US investment of German company Deutsche Telekom, or Sony Corporation of American is the US investment of Japan's Sony Corp. But the whole thing is rather moot, since because of mutual legal assistance treaties its very likely that a foreign court wouldn't block a US court order to produce evidence if such an order were legal in that country. Microsoft is arguing against extraterritorial application of US law, but courts have ruled in the past that the US can do it. It just depends on whether the foreign government will oppose such an order. And I don't believe that Microsoft has argued its cased before a European court, have they?
If I ship my physical documents to [country X], I don't have use of them in America. I can't continue recording information in them or accessing information from them. It takes me time to ship them back into the country for my use. I can keep old records abroad, but my current books need to be in-country for my use, with the result that investigators can still obtain a warrant and seize them to prove whether I'm committing fraud or other misdeeds.
If I store my electronic data in [country X], I can get it back in milliseconds. There's practically no difference to me, other than the fact that I can say they're "not in your jurisdiction." My documents, even my current working ones, can never be seized, and I can, for all intents and purposes, never be investigated for fraud, peculation, or anything else unseemly (unless someone in the know decides to testify).
Microsoft's position in this case would prevent the US from ever investigating financial fraud again. Corporate data will leave the country faster than H1B's enter it.
You're a US based corporation, subject to US law, Microsoft. If this case involved physical documentation pertinent to a federal investigation, you'd have to turn that over (pursuant to a federal warrant) no matter if those documents are stored within the US borders or not. Same with email.
How is this a troll or flamebait?
Seriously. If a multinational corporation is arguing for limiting the ability of law enforcement to investigate it for violations of the law, you can bet it ain't because they have their customers' privacy rights in mind. People that are siding with Microsoft on this one are just useful idiots.
because of mutual legal assistance treaties its very likely that a foreign court wouldn't block a US court order to produce evidence
I think this is correct. But I believe that the problem here is that the FBI is expecting a foreign government to comply with one of its national security letters. In other words, no courts, no warrants.
As to whether Microsoft Ireland is a seperate legal entity in the eyes of the Irish legal system, that's an issue for Irish law as well. In the USA, a US subsidiary of a foreign parent is expected to comply with US law.
Have gnu, will travel.
No, this whole thing is over a narcotics investigation. There's no fishing expedition, no wide net of unspecified charges, no national security letters, just a warrant filed under the applicable law (the ECPA, I believe). to produce emails of a particular individual. The emails just happen to reside on a server in a Microsoft's data center located in Dublin.
And your branch is doing business in Ireland which means it's subject to Irish law, which says that if you hand over those documents you're breaking it.
So, MS, you may decide now which law you wish to break.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They have their business in mind. And they know exactly that nobody is going to entrust them with their sensitive data if this could at any time get siphoned away by US government who just might have an interest to hand over valuable research data to US companies that just so happened to stuff the campaign purse of whoever is in charge.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The other countries already do this. And no, the US doesn't like it. No one does.
Every country expects their laws to be followed and considers them supreme to all others. If a law is broken in the US, the US expects to be able to subpoena the evidence even if it is in another country. And other countries feel the same way.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Are you certain? Isn't it possible that Microsoft Ireland is a separate corporate entity from Microsoft USA?
Yes, they are subsidiaries. It can get weird and complex when it comes to revenue and such -- but no it isn't possible that they are separate corporate entities. Otherwise, Apple Inc. in Ireland could decide it made more sense to just start making it's own products if it thought it'd benefit Apple Ireland vs Apple Cupertino.
No, that's incorrect. Ireland has already stated that it will honor the US warrant if the US goes through the mutual legal assistance treaty. What this about is the US arguing that it doesn't need to go through the treaty to compel Microsoft to produce the emails since 1)Microsoft is a US company and 2) they have the ability to access and produce the email directly to their US office, even though the digital bits resides on a server in Microsoft's data center in Ireland. This is about a multinational corporation making it more difficult for a nation's law enforcement to investigate it for legal violations under the ruse of protecting its customer's privacy.
Jeezus, this has nothing to with "siphoning" anything. It's about the US serving a warrant on Microsoft to produce the emails of ONE individual who is connected to a NARCOTICS investigation. It's a straight-up, by the book, routine court order. It's not even a matter of Microsoft challenging the warrant in the interest of protecting a customer's privacy, its because the US is applying a ECPA extra-territorially without going through the mutual legal assistance treaty with Ireland. Ireland has already agreed to honor the warrant if the US goes through the treaty, so as far as the individual's emails are concerned, he's cooked. No, this is about Microsoft and other multinationals concerned that the US would have it too easy to investigate them for things like tax evasion and other corporate shenanigans without going through the burdensome treaty process. Ireland a damn tax haven like the Caymans and its not by chance that Cisco, Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, etc. are all incorporated there. The Irish gov is deeply in the pockets in these companies and it can make it very difficult to investigate these companies for tax fraud when you have it putting up obstacles for turning over evidence to US law enforcement. Customer privacy? That's a good one.
Every American manufacturer and service provider is suspect because of these government demands. Digital equipment may have back doors for the convenience of government spies. Cloud services are probably being watched. Software may have embedded spyware.
If you were a foreign company or government would you trust anything coming from the US? Even a US company or individual can't trust our own companies. Our government is making us non-competitive worldwide. (Open source products may be safer.)
...omphaloskepsis often...
The end result will be as follows:
Private communications outside the US borders will be kept private when they belong to a government dignitary, corporation, or other rich and powerful person. For ordinary people, those communications will be on government servers, indexed and searchable before they even land on the foreign servers.
Why should it tolerate a multi-national corporation getting itself into a situation where observing the laws of one nation put it violation of another?
No individual country has an obligation to make it easy or hard for a multi-national corporation to comply with the laws of multiple countries simultaneously. That is a responsibility the corporation took on when it entered business in multiple countries.
Irrelevant. The US court isn't ordering Microsoft Ireland to do anything, it is ordering Microsoft US. If Microsoft US can't get it back from Microsoft Ireland that is not the US court's problem.
Would you be willing to pay Microsoft US to store you data if one day they could say "whoops, we gave it to Microsoft Ireland and now it is illegal to get it back. Here's your bill"?
Irrelevant. Microsoft US already stipulated that they could aces the records.
Nobody is going to entrust their data to Microsoft US if one day it turns out they can't get your data back from whatever foreign country they shipped it off to.
So how is it then when "Target Canada" or other such companies go bankrupt, that "Target USA" isn't liable for all the debts they left behind?
The feds cant use a warrant obtained in the USA to require a US based company to hand over physical documents stored in a foreign company, why should they be able to do it for electronic documents?
What are you smoking. Sure the feds can't use a warrant obtained in the US to go kick in a door on foreign soil, they have to ask the local government their nicely to do it for them (unless its in the Middle East than we just do it anyway); but they certainly can subpena records.
You think for example during the Enron trials if they had just said "gee SEC we don't have to comply with these subpenas for records because we do all out accounting out of our Mexico City office", the feds would have responded "Oh well than I guess there is nothing we can do". No they would have been held in contempt and punished that way.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
You wouldn't want the IRS using these laws to get to your overseas accounting records, would you?
Yes, that's exactly the problem here. Ireland wants MS to comply with its law. That law does allow for legal assistance to the US, but the US would have to honor the process, which they plan not to do.
Simply transferring the "bits" to a US server by itself would already be a legal problem. Possibly. So far nobody bothered to have it taken to court, but "simply" pushing data from a EU storage center to the US ain't so "simple" legal wise. Or what would you say if they "simply" pushed every mail on a US server on a server in the EU because it's "simpler" to store it there?
You accuse MS of "making it more difficult for [the US] law enforcement ... under the ruse of protecting its customer's privacy". So what's their real agenda? Making it difficult for the US law enforcement 'cause it's fun to do it? Yeah, that sure wins them contracts. Especially government contracts. And no, MS certainly doesn't give a shit about customer's privacy. Where's the money in that? But they must comply with the Irish law and of course simply handing over data to a foreign nation won't make them very attractive as data storage providers for people and companies outside the US.
But turnabout is fair game, and hence the question must be asked, why can't the US simply follow due process? Ireland already signaled that they will comply with a legal assistance request, why not simply go through with it? Because the US doesn't want Ireland to know when it siphons data away?
Does the US have something to hide?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Then where's the problem? Tell Ireland what's cooking and they will certainly assist, issue the warrant for the data and MS will not only comply with all laws concerned but certainly gladly hand over the data.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
What happens when powerful bigots at the top put people of your orientation on their shit-list? Will it still be for your own good?
Just because they arent targetting you yet ...