Microsoft Pushes For Public Education Funding While Avoiding State Taxes

theodp writes: After stressing how important the funding of Washington State education — particularly CS Ed — is to Microsoft, company general counsel Brad Smith encountered one of those awkward interview moments (audio at 28:25). GeekWire Radio: "So, would you ever consider ending that practice [ducking WA taxes by routing software licensing royalties through Nevada-based Microsoft Licensing, GP] in Nevada [to help improve WA education]?" Smith: "I think there are better ways for us to address the state's needs than that kind of step." Back in 2010, Smith, Steve Ballmer, and Microsoft Corporation joined forces to defeat Proposition I-1098, apparently deciding there were better ways to address the state's needs than a progressive income tax.

Comments

Everyone loves taxes

[srichard25]

Everyone loves taxes when it is someone else paying them.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone loves taxes when it is someone else paying them.

I love taxes even when I'm paying them. What I don't love is people who want the benefits of public services and infrastructure (i.e. civilization) but don't want to pay for it.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a contradiction to press for an allocation of resources without increasing the contribution to those resources.

I don't blame Microsoft for routing licensing royalties through Nevada. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the law changing to rationalize how taxation works on software royalties (depending on the exact nature of the law, anyway). I would expect such a change to not just bulk transfer the earnings to Washington for tax purposes, but to spread them throughout the US in proportion to where the software is licensed/used.

I'm not opposed to income taxes, and I'm not opposed to closing loopholes that let companies avoid taxes by making absurd accounting steps. But it's not like all the money filtering through Nevada should be filtering through Washington, just because the headquarters building is in Washington. Washington would still get the lion's share of Microsoft-based taxes since the lion's share of employees live there, and are well-paid.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Federal waste is a problem. Education funding is not part of that problem. In Washington State, two thirds of school funding comes from the state, and the tax Microsoft is ducking is state revenue. The Feds and bridges to nowhere have nothing to do with this, but MS is refusing to pay its share of the cost for services that it is demanding from the state. It would be one thing if they were using tax loopholes to avoid paying for something irrelevant to them, but the fact that they have their fingers in the pie and don't want to pay for it is as reprehensible as it gets.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[garyisabusyguy]

Sure, sure it is popular to claim that the government wastes money

It goes back to the Proxmire Golden Fleece Awards where a Senator from Wisconsin would claim to have identified horrendous wastes of money, while the state that he represented (Wisconsin) raked in billions of dollars in milk and cheese subsidies.

Between that and claims of 'Welfare Queens', the political right has played a distraction game to subvert programs like education while lining their pockets with money going to defense contractors and industries in their own backyards

FWIW, education is not a waste, neither are any number of programs that make for a healthier, smarter and more capable workforce. Companies like MS claim that they cannot find the 'right' resources here and that they have to bring in workers from overseas, while they simultaneously subvert the American worker by shortchanging us all when they find ways to avoid paying their taxes

Americans who are not billionaires or corporations need to stop buying into the BS propaganda and start demanding that companies pay their fair share

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[phantomfive]

Sure, sure it is popular to claim that the government wastes money It goes back to the Proxmire Golden Fleece Awards where a Senator from Wisconsin would claim to have identified horrendous wastes of money,

It's way older than that. In the early 1800s people were complaining that government was wasting money on canal infrastructure projects, digging canals so shipping could travel across the US. People complained that the canals could have been dug much more cheaply by the private sector.

Most of the arguments we have in politics go back all the way to the beginning in one form or another. It's kind of amazing.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Having said all that, the state (and feds) need to reign in spending, stop abuse and get back to being a government, not a sociology project.(I saw something where thousands of people are collecting social security under names of people who are dead as just one example, the bridge to no where is another).

Your examples are private individuals engaging in fraud and one single bridge? When there is significant issues with underfunding for highway construction and Social Security as a whole has reduced poverty among seniors in a demonstrated fashion?

Maybe you should think a little more about your complaints?

(Though the most recent thing about Social Security I saw was people paying into it under other people's numbers, for various reasons.)

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to public high school. I took advantage of what was offered and took calculus, AP credits galore, and more Latin than I learned in college. Sure, ninety percent of the students wasted their lives and learned nothing, but that wasn't the school's fault. The school sure as hell offered to teach those of us who had the personal responsibility and character not to fuck up for four years.

The problem isn't the schools but the population and the parents. Schools can't fix that. Schools can teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, but they can't teach sense, and they can't make the proverbial horse drink.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[kenh]

MS is paying to educate NV kids, where their license corp. is located. This is something current law allows, locating parts of your business anywhere you want - want to make that illegal?

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[pepty]

Washington would still get the lion's share of Microsoft-based taxes since the lion's share of employees live there, and are well-paid.

In other news:

Back in 2010, Smith, Steve Ballmer, and Microsoft Corporation joined forces to defeat Proposition I-1098, apparently deciding there were better ways to address the state's needs than a progressive income tax.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[schnell]

Additionally, the Slashdot story is disingenuous (shocking!) when it brings up Microsoft's opposition to Washington proposition I-1098 a couple years back. Yes, Ballmer was a big contributor against the initiative but it was widely unpopular across the entire state, failing at the polls by a 2-to-1 margin.

Quick recap on what that was for non-Washington residents: WA is one of seven US states with no personal income tax. Sales taxes vary by locality, but in general they are higher than average in WA in order to make up for the lack of a sales tax (in Seattle, for example, sales tax is nearly 10%).

I-1098 proposed that individuals making more than $200K/year or families making $400K/year pay a state income tax, with a higher rate applying to those above $500K/$1M. Given WA's economically skewed demographics, the tax would hit many in the greater Seattle area (around the top 3% including Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon, Google, Nintendo etc. employees), while outside Seattle it would be more like the top .01%.

Interestingly, Bill Gates was a visible I-1098 supporter, while Steve Ballmer was a major opponent. But keep in mind the above: the demographics of Washington State are such that had this been an issue of just Microsoft and other big corps fighting it, or "rich Seattle" against the rest of the state which is not so full of rich techies, it would have won handily. Instead, it lost by a 64-36 ratio because voters across the entire state, including a majority of Democrats, thought it was a backdoor way to introduce a state income tax whose threshold would conveniently be lowered by the state legislature whenever it found itself in a money crunch.

So long story short - it may very well be true that Microsoft is dodging state taxes that it should be paying. If so, it should definitely be held to account. However, the fact that Ballmer or Microsoft supported a widely popular anti-state income tax initiative is not related to whether the company is shirking its tax duties.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[nuonguy]

You mean like Microsoft pushing everyone else to spend more money funding schools so they can make more money on the students that graduate from those schools?

And when you say "arguing they shouldnt have to pay," (sic), does that include corporations like Microsoft arguing that they shouldn't have to pay state taxes?

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

"Education funding is not part of that problem" -- Government Waste.

Your reality and your local school board's reality are two quite different things.
The Government (a.k.a, "public") Schools are rife with waste tax dollars. Just look at the Roman Catholic and Lutheran schools systems and compare their products. With less money, the Roman Catholics and Lutheran do a far better job on the whole.

I am an educator with an education degree -- I have some insights into to Government School System waste.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

What I don't like are people that are happy to use modern technology and resources to squeeze as much production as possible out of workers but don't want to pay for it, yet at the same time we have none of the benefits of increased production on the government side, but we still pay a lot of taxes.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, they can damn well start teaching that. Flunk the illiterate bastards out. But that's not done anymore. It might hurt the preciouses widdle feewings.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Moof123]

Same here. I am happy to pay my taxes, especially if it keeps the schools funded and keeps old folks out of the gutter. I am sick and tired of way too much of my taxes going to the military industrial complex while the rich multinational oil company's whose interests are served by such mis-adventures sit back and dodge their civic duty to pay their fare share like me.

Please increase my tax rate and properly fund our schools. I am tired of all the badly educated dumbasses, and it horrifies me to see kids only 10 years behind me have to rack up much more debt than I did to go to even a low end college.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with highway and road construction is that the gas tax money didn't all get allocated to the highway/bridge infrastructure during the last 3 raises. By the time the tax was set back to normal, the damage to the fund itself had been done. Combine that with rising fuel efficiency mandated by the government and the tax breaks given out to fuel efficient cars, and suddenly the problem's source become apparent.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Moof123]

"Washington would still get the lion's share of Microsoft-based taxes since the lion's share of employees live there, and are well-paid."

What a crock of crap.

My tax responsibility is mine, not my employers. Employers cannot skip out on their taxes just because they have employees who don't have that kind of opportunity. I don't get to argue my way out of responsibility for taxes just because my checker at the grocery store has to pay her taxes. We are all in this together, it is not fair for big enough employers to threaten to leave if they don't get special tax treatment. It is anti-competitive to say the least when the Microsoft's, Intel's, and Nike's get special breaks while the rest of us living in the area have to make up for this tax welfare they get. F' them.

No representation without taxation. Stop letting these moocher companies lobby if they don't pay their share.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you have an intimate and first hand knowledge of that type of "education".

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[tsotha]

It's way older than that. In the early 1800s people were complaining that government was wasting money on canal infrastructure projects, digging canals so shipping could travel across the US.

You mean the canals that today sit unused?

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Moof123]

The pacific northwest is beholdent to a few large companies that use their importance to exert some scary influence on the politics. When these issues come up Microsoft has threatened to move overseas, or to other states. The voters and state/local government falls in line. Same with Boeing, which has moved a lot out of Washington even after getting just about special treatment they could ask for.

Down here in Orygun, Intel and Nike do the same thing. Nike's headquarters is surrounded by Beaverton, but is not part of it because they they have made huge threats to leave if the city tries to annex it into the city, which would result in higher property taxes to help pay for the city services they already benefit from. Intel got a very sweet package during their recent expansion. It is a massive race to the bottom to get and keep these big employers. It is sickening. The rest of us in the area get to pay higher taxes to make up the shortfall, and we have the threat hanging over us that they can crash the local economy and housing prices with it if they make good on their threats.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[dbIII]

it is not fair for big enough employers to threaten to leave

They don't just threaten. Have you seen how much of IBM is run out of mainland China these days?

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[phantomfive]

Yeah, talk about government waste!

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean because they eventually were superseded by the railways system enabled by government-run eminent domain and land grant schemes, followed by the government-planned and funded Interstate highway system and then the advanced civil aviation system that itself could never have existed without extensive subsidization and support by the federal and state governments? You know, after the canals fostered American commerce and growth for well over a century?

Yeah, the government does nothing but waste taxpayer money.

It's way older than that. In the early 1800s people were complaining that government was wasting money on canal infrastructure projects, digging canals so shipping could travel across the US.

You mean the canals that today sit unused?

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[nbauman]

It's way older than that. In the early 1800s people were complaining that government was wasting money on canal infrastructure projects, digging canals so shipping could travel across the US.

You mean the canals that today sit unused?

He means canals like the Erie Canal that turned New York City into the largest port in the U.S., by opening the western U.S. to international commerce. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone loves taxes when it is someone else paying them.

Not true. Some libertarians are opposed to taxation on principle.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

This problem could be easily solved if highway improvement funding were tied to taxes progressively apportioned to those vehicles that do 99% of the damage to road infrastructure commercial trucks. Of course, this might lead to a slight increase in the cost of transportation of goods, and we would never actually want to fairly minimize externalities in our economy, now would we? Because not sticking it to poor drivers for whom fuel costs are a significant chunk of each week's paycheck would be SOCIALISM!

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Federal waste is a problem. Education funding is not part of that problem.

Wow, where did this idea come from? Education is a perfect example of such waste. The education system in the US is monsterously inefficient and, some would argue, counter-productive.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

"pay anything for eduction"

"being graduated from HS without knowing how to read and write"

lol i no rite?

Do you honestly think it is more likely the AC doesn't know how to spell education than that it was just a typo? If so you are an idiot, if not you are an asshole.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[kcwhitta]

In this context, "Kids are being graduated from HS without knowing how to read and write." is grammatically correct. Admittedly, it may be more difficult than necessary to parse correctly; however, it is the teachers that are graduating the students from high school. So, kids are being graduated from high school [by their teachers] without knowing how to read and write. The use of the passive voice in this case puts extra emphasis that they were not deserving to receive a diploma.

Source: I was awarded my high school English award.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Washington state has no state income tax, only property and sales tax.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Phil Urich]

And knowing they'll always squeeze as much as possible out of us and then decide that another place will bend over even further, why make those concessions in the first place? We need to be encouraging systems that are above subsistence.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

That is because people disconnect services from taxes. They use roads but do not intellectually understand that the maintenance is not money coming out of thin air. Rinse and repeat with all governments services. I understand fully what pays my health care, roads, and other services, which is why I do not mind paying. What I hate are those using government services but using all tricks to completely avoid taxes. Like big firm "sub licensing" their Ip for incredible amount of money to their own subsidiary and thus funneling money out. Unfortunately politician make up a lot of excuse why such shenanigan should be allowed, and those politician keep getting elected. We get the democracy we merit.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Flat tax? No. But a progressive tax as to not burden the poor? Yes.

I disagree with what you said. Give me higher taxes, but not on the poor. And do it reasonably as to not push the rich out of the state.

I already mentioned something similar in another post, but here it goes...

A state constitutional amendment to prevent legislative meddling.
Based on federal AGI to maintain simplicity.
Capped at 3% rate to be favorable to the rich.
A standard deduction equal to 250% of the poverty level to be favorable to the poor.
100% of the revenue, less the amount to collect the tax, would be earmarked for k-12 education.
It would be limited to the state-level, and would not be permitted to be done at the local level.
I'd also allow for the following deductions: qualified tuition, out-of-pocket medical expenses exceeding 10% (whether to self or someone else), and property tax paid (for title holder).

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Jack Griffin]

Please increase my tax rate and properly fund our schools.

We have a political Q&A TV show here, and one time a politician was on there promoting his low tax policies because "no-one wants higher taxes" There was a collective groan from the studio audience and one guy responded, "I'll happily pay more tax if it means better services". This was followed by another, and another which drew applause. The general consensus is the "low tax" promise is purely a political gimmick. If you want quality health education and infrastructure services that most people want, then you have to pay for it, and you pay for it through taxes.
I paid over $70k in tax last year and will happily support higher tax rates dedicated to improving health, education and transport (not defence - $1Trillion on a illegal war? WTF? Those responsible for that should be hung for treason)

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

Growing up i had a school teacher for a neighbor. She worked for a district other than where I went to school. Every year around June she would start passing out reams of paper, art supplies, pencils, markers, entire rolls of construction paper and all kinds of consumables used in school. The reason was because inventory counted against the next year's budget and leftovers would decrease the budget making them fight for more funding.

I didn't care at the time. Most people didn't care either that i know of. I guess it is /was common for government agencies to burn their budgets at the end of the fiscal year in order to skirt cuts in the next year's budget. This could have some to do with why there might be a difference in funding levels. One thing we know is true is that blindly throwing money at schools does not automagically create better outcomes.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[bloodhawk]

I like the concept but absolutely HATE the implementation/reality, everything the government does costs exponentially more than what it would cost in the real world, the hideous waste in government makes me resent every cent I hand over to them.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[SuricouRaven]

That's not far from the situation in UK politics: The big three parties are all pledging to increase public spending in some highly popular areas, and all openly admit that this means higher taxes. They all propose to handle this by restructuring tax in order to make it more progressive: Rich-bashing is very popular here right now, and everyone is eager to vote for any politician who promises an end to tax-dodging millionaires and megacorps. The numbers don't really support this approach - there just aren't enough super-rich people in the country - but numbers rarely feature in politics.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Etherwalk]

... but the fact that they have their fingers in the pie and don't want to pay for it is as reprehensible as it gets.

Microsoft is paying for a *LOT*--just via employees rather than corporate taxes. The benefits to Washington State from having MSFT located there are massive.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC Nevada has no income tax, and education funding comes from sales taxes...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

Most "ganjadudes" tend to be progressive. You sound decidedly far right/Tea Party. Perhaps you should consider getting a more accurate handle, like, perhaps, IveGotMineLet'mStarve.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

At the very least he didn't bother to proof read what he wrote. At worst, he really doesn't know how to spell ejamacashun. From his right-wing attitude I would say he isn't terribly knowledgeable about much at all, and that would include the finer points of creative writing. "We don need no stinkin eduction!"

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

Commercial trucks already pay more in fuel taxes. The problem is the money is diluted and used for none road uses like state pensions, mandatory union scale wages, bike paths and residential roads that trucks are never allowed to drive on any ways.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

Might not be a bad idea. We should start with shutting down Delaware as a credit card processing facility. And, by the way, the story was about hypocricy, not the finer points of the distorted law enacted by corporate stooges in congress.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

An educator who can't write a proper English sentence? I detect the scent of BS.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

"Sumdumass"? Got it!

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

Lol.. illegal war. When idiots spout crap like that you know they cannot be taken seriously. When they claim they pay large amounts of taxes and don't break it down between state and federal then claim they would pay more willingly if something on the state level improves but then bitch about federal spending you know they are either trolling or plain fucking stupid.

Which is it? Are you trolling or an imbecile? My guess is a little of both but either appears obvious from your comment.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Lord Balto]

There you go being rational again! Get on board the "We ain't payin' to educate darkies" program and stop whining! Seriously though, it's hilarious to watch all of these anonymous cowards regurgitate the corporate party line like it's the be-all and end-all of American freedom, when it's really just an attempt to justify corporate rule.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[jpapon]

get back to being a government, not a sociology project.

What does this even mean? Isn't any government a sociology project?

we all see government waste every single day, why would anyone want to give them more money?

Waste is everywhere. In fact, Americans in general are the moste wasteful people in the world. Just look at their energy consumption and refuse production per capita. Just because government is wasteful doesn't mean that we should just abandon it completely. Many of our government services (protection, education, utilities, law enforcement...) we don't have a more efficient alternative for. Yes, you can privatize them, but only at the expense of losing control over them.

Also, private doesn't necessarily mean more efficient. Just look at the US's health care system. It is far less cost-efficient than the public systems of Europe.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, they can damn well start teaching that. Flunk the illiterate bastards out. But that's not done anymore. It might hurt the preciouses widdle feewings.

This.

You can get a damned fine education from public schools. But nobody will care if you want to fuck up and/or fuck off.

They're not allowed to care. Spastic, screaming parents who bother voting have seen to it.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a massive race to the bottom to get and keep these big employers. It is sickening.

Yeah, having employers available to provide your citizens with the means to make a living is fucking disgusting.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[PatrickNarkinsky]

Must not have gone to my high school.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Dragonslicer]

I'm pretty sure that isn't unique to government agencies.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[bmo]

YOU can't be taken seriously because most of us out here know what $1TRILLION could have done for infrastructure and education. But no, we've got flag-waving racist imbeciles like you who want to piss it all away on odious shit, like killing brown people, and politicians who will pander to them and suck the cocks of the military industrial complex.

What you don't get is that you've been pick-pocketed to kill people.

Just shut the fuck up.

--
BMO

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[argStyopa]

I love paying taxes when they go for public services and infrastructure (i.e. civilization), and not for bread and circuses giveaways that are simply an exercise in vote-buying slightly more subtle than packs of cigarettes.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[geoskd]

I'm pretty sure that isn't unique to government agencies.

These days it pretty much is. Executive types got wise to the scan years ago and started watching expense accounts. The promote from within concept helps fight this as well, since managers come up through the ranks, they have a pretty good idea where the graft is, so they know what they can safely cut.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[oobayly]

I constantly make stupid typos when posting, even after proof reading it. I put it down to seeing what I want to see, which is why I get somebody else to proof read something important. As I'm a pedant it really annoys me when I notice them after clicking submit.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[reboot246]

Actually, a LOT of government spending "comes out of thin air". That's part of the problem - fiat currency. The federal government is printing money at an ever-increasing pace, therefore devaluing the currency. Listen to old people when they tell you what a dollar "used to buy".

When I was 7 years old I could take a quarter to the store; buy a soft drink, a bag of chips, and a candy bar; and get change back. Now a quarter just barely covers the tax.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[geoskd]

Microsoft is paying for a *LOT*--just via employees rather than corporate taxes. The benefits to Washington State from having MSFT located there are massive.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Most Washington state business are local to the state meaning they have to pay income taxes, sales taxes, etc. The residents are similarly burdened. Then there is Microsoft who is located there, but pays close to zero income tax, almost no sales tax. It unjustly transfers the burdens from Microsoft to those smaller entities who cannot duck the taxes because they are not large enough. The reality is that the benefits that Microsoft brings to Washington state per capita are much much smaller than those brought by almost every other business in the state. Its not like Microsoft is moving that wealth to another state either, they are simply transferring that wealth to the shareholders. Its yet another variant on trickle down (voodoo, or doodoo if you prefer) economics. Our world needs a unified tax code that applies evenly to everyone. No loopholes, no dodges. Everyone pays their share no matter how the company / individuals lives.

My suggestion would be for the united states to make it simple. If you sell one product in the United states, you will pay US tax rates on your income. Period. If you have paid taxes somewhere else, you can deduct that amount from the amount you owe the US, but you cannot dodge paying those taxes somewhere. If a company doesn't like it, they are free to not sell products in the United states...

Similar rules should be made for state taxes, otherwise you get situations like Washington state where they are getting fleeced and don't even realize it.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[ILongForDarkness]

That's just it. Local government pays for things like schools, police, fire etc things that clearly a company needs to attract and protect people. Companies lobby like hell to allow them to build an office, get property tax exceptions, discounted power etc etc but ask them to pay for some of the infrastructure and services that their existence cause and they'll fight like hell.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[ILongForDarkness]

I agree post secondary can be a waste for many maybe most people. There is a reason why people say I'm crazy smart for example, and pretty much by definition if I'm doing it that means the majority of people probably can't. The assumption that everyone has a right to go to university and that that will magically roll back the clock to the 60's when only a couple countries mattered is silly. That said there are a lot of skilled(ish) jobs that require some education to do (mechanics, plumbing, electrical, etc). Good trade schools and apprenticeships could go a long way. Instead you end up with "job creators" that only create jobs for their kids (we should ban any company from having the name "and sons" in its title) rather than a meritocracy where apprenticeships/entry into the industry is based on talent.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[RogerWilco]

Inflation is an inherent part of our money system. Interest is what creates inflation. 95%+ of this is created by the banks through mortgages.
The other few percent is partially done by governments and is mostly needed to compensate for population and economy growth.
This is true for most economies, only some Arabic ones have a somewhat different system, because return-on-investment is illegal there because of religious reasons. Most of the world used to work that way until the late middle ages.

Most things today depend on interest or other return-on-investment, like mortgages and other loans, credit, pensions, shares and dividend, savings accounts, etc.
It's an integral part of our economy and capitalism in general. Learn something yourself instead of listening to the talking heads on TV.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[RoccamOccam]

... It goes back to the Proxmire Golden Fleece Awards where a Senator from Wisconsin would claim to have identified horrendous wastes of money, while the state that he represented (Wisconsin) raked in billions of dollars in milk and cheese subsidies.

Between that and claims of 'Welfare Queens', the political right has played a distraction game to subvert programs like education while lining their pockets with money ...

Just wanted to mention that Sen. Proxmire was a Democrat.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Bengie]

I would rather have faxes fairly applied, like a fixed tax rate on discretionary income.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, don't believe this to be very true in the private sphere (if it ever was). Most entities I have worked for measure their managers on margin, efficiencies, etc. Increasing your departments costs actually tends to decrease a managers pay/bonuses as well as to make them more vulnerable in a business down turn when positions need to be eliminated. So no, most managers don't want to make less money and potentially be let go as to keep they departments spending up...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Immerman]

And? The Democrats are also a right-wing party, have been for many decades. They're just slightly more centrist than the Republicans.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Immerman]

Nothing remotely proportional to the greater amount of damage they do though - if I recall correctly road damage scales with the 4th power of the weight of the vehicle, the first page I found when looking to confirm that referred to a study suggesting a single 18-wheeler does as much road damage as 9600 cars. I guarantee you that their fuel taxes are not high enough to pay their fare share of road maintenance costs.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercial trucks already pay more in fuel taxes.

Do they pay proportionally to the damage they cause to the roads?

No, they don't. That's the point. The increase in fuel usage is not tracked with the increase in road damage due to more massive vehicles.

The problem is the money is diluted and used for none road uses like state pensions, mandatory union scale wages, bike paths and residential roads that trucks are never allowed to drive on any ways.

Nope. The total revenues from fuel taxes aren't even enough for all of the necessary road spending, and nope, most road construction is private contractors, state pensions don't factor in nearly as much as graft and corruption from that, union wages don't cause half the problems people like you claim they do, bike paths are a trivial expense that benefits the public at large, and residential roads are kinda essential to the whole system working, those commercial trucks wouldn't be worth anything if their customers couldn't buy the products.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[hey!]

Everyone loves the benefits of government-funded infrastructure if someone else is paying for them.

That's not entirely true. If you are in the top %0.001 of the population for income, you could feasibly pay for your own private infrastructure. You buy a plot of land, put a wall around it and hire a bunch of people to protect you, take care of you and cater to your needs. But your standard of living wouldn't actually be any objectively better than it is in contemporary America. In fact it would probably be somewhat worse. Historically societies that organized themselves along these feudal lines were not by modern standards innovative. You mustn't imagine living your untaxed castle enjoying Internet access and the other benefits of a modern science. In the rule by and for the wealthy, guys like Jon Postel or Vint Cerf would most likely have been serfs.

Humanity's greatest resource is the creativity of people -- a resource that tends to be squandered either by totalitarian control on one hand or anarchistic neglect on the other. People who can see no middle ground aren't just blind as futurists, they're historically blind.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Silence shill. These corporate fat cats want the benefit of a modern infrastructure yet aren't willing to pay their fair share. Let 'em try to relocate overseas - they'll either have to accept the much higher tax rate and cost of doing business in the EU, or try to make do with the lawlessness and general corruption of less civilized regions.

Either way, it's not a viable business plan and they know it - these "tax us and we leave" speeches are nothing but hot air.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[gtall]

So, following your logic, the Eisenhower should never have started the interstate highway system since it wasn't part of the bare basics. Come to it, we should halt all federally funded cancer research since that's not a basic either. And Grandma can come and live with you, affording her is not a government bare basic. Neither is the EPA and all those emission controls, a round of mercury for everyone. Airline safety can be left to the airlines, auto safety to the car companies, drug safety to the drug companies. I can see the light!!!

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

I was entirely shocked by the amount of the state budget here that is purely devoted to public education in some way shape or form and am entirely at a loss how they can whine about how they're getting less money adjusted by inflation than they used to. OTOH I never did understand voodoo economics and other creative accounting.

From my perspective all I can see is a great deal of waste in k-12 public education along with onerous pension obligations and funding of extracurriculars, e.g. sports. AFAIC I have no children ATM(not sure if I did that I would utilize the public education system anyways) and feel the only obligation to education is the basics. If parents want more than that, then they can pony up for each and everyone of their children that use the extras.

Personally my k-12 was through parochial schools, and my first exposure to "public" education was a public state university, which really wouldn't need any state monies if it weren't for useless degree programs like mass media, literature, etc. You know, those degrees that lead to a future of burger flipping. As engineering, sciences etc. probably pulled in enough research contracts to fund at least those departments and that's likely with the university creaming 53% IIRC right off the top for "administrative purposes". Apparently administrative purposes are MUCH more expensive than research...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[gtall]

Please step away from the 50's and 60's, the "military-industrial" complex is way to small to effect the economy. DoD spend about $600 billion a year (of which about $300 Billion is spent on salaries, benefits, etc.) and that pales in comparison to the rest of the nearly $4 Trillion federal budget and won't budget the $17 Trillion U.S. economy. In fact, even large companies are doing all they can to get away from reliance on DoD because of uncertain funding and small ball funding.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

And this.

Take a look at the waste in the public education system. The amount of overheard is amazing. Back 20-30 years ago, there was a principal and her secretary. Now that would have a whole department of 10-15 people. Waste.

And it is nearly impossible to fire people. I saw a report last week that a 5th grade teacher (Art, iirc) threw chairs and shoved a desk at the students. He was punished - with a 30 day suspension. He should have been fired! Who would trust him with their kids now?

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[ranton]

At the very least he didn't bother to proof read what he wrote.

He is not writing a dissertation, he is posting on an Internet forum. Even professional editors let errors into articles and books, so holding up people writing responses in their spare time to a higher standard than professional writers is a bit daft.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[ranton]

The problem isn't the schools but the population and the parents. Schools can't fix that. Schools can teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, but they can't teach sense, and they can't make the proverbial horse drink.

I wish when I was faced with a difficult problem at work I could just say "my users can barely use their computer so its their fault they can't understand my UI". Or some other such nonsense.

Teachers do not have an easy job, but it is their job. The teaching profession needs to come up with real solutions to this, or outside organizations will. It is a very difficult problem so far more organizations will fail than succeed, but we will absolutely need to keep trying. And considering many countries have found ways to mitigate these problems it appears to be a very fixable problem. The funny thing is many of these countries just used good ideas they found from the US and simply instituted them on a national scale.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

It doesn't have to be proportional but yes, it works out to about 4 times as much being paid per mile driven than regular cars. And no, the damage is not staved off if commercial vehicles were not allowed to drive on the roads. HOV lanes tend to only last a year or two longer than the other portions of the highways. This is because the roads are not designed to last 200 years and the asphalt breaks down due to standing, starting, and stopping. The biggest factor in road life is accidents by far.

I do not know why people like you ignore the bullshit wastes of money and cry about who pays their fair shares instead. The problem is that it simply would not matter who paid anything if they are spending it on stuff not directly the roads. It's like someone yelling the hotel is on fire everybody exit and you sit there crying that the party of ten didn't pay their bill yet.

There is more than enough money to pay for the roads under the existing tax structure if all the money went to the roads being driven on and not parks or bike paths, or pensions of employees not even involved in the road departments.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[nbauman]

You must have grown up a long time ago, in a school district far away. Today teachers have to buy their own supplies, out of their own personal funds.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new...

Teachers spending $500 out of own pockets for kids' school supplies: union poll
Pens, paper — the basics — are what hard-pressed teachers are laying out their own cash for, says the union. City educrats, with a $24 billion education budget, say, 'hard-working teachers should not have to pay for supplies.'
BY Ben Chapman
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Sunday, March 2, 2014, 6:54 PM

City schools are so strapped that teachers are buying the basics with their own money, a teachers union poll released Monday shows.

On average, public school teachers will spend almost $500 of their own cash this year on pens, paper and other instructional materials.

Even with its $24 billion education budget, the city doesn't always deliver the basics, teachers union president Michael Mulgrew said.

"It was the teachers who were holding the schools together -- with the tape that they bought, it seems," Mulgrew said.

Roughly half of 800 randomly selected teachers who responded to the 2013 survey said that their schools do not have a curriculum for the state's tougher new Common Core standards.

Teachers also said the Internet connections in half of their schools were either too slow or too unreliable to support instruction.

City educrats said they were working to get teachers a cash infusion.

"Hard-working teachers should not have to pay for supplies out of their own pockets," said Department spokesman Marcus Liem.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story...
Teachers Spend Own Money for Supplies
Aug. 31
By Maria F. Durand

Bruce Hogue is always looking for ways to make teaching science more interesting.

But the money he uses for the boxes of Cheerios, Bran Flakes and Total needed for one his experiments usually comes out of his pocket.

“As a science teacher, I have an official budget, but that is usually gone by the beginning of the year,” says Hogue, who works in suburban Denver. “When I want to do a science lab, I usually pay for it all on my own.”

Hogue is one of the millions of teachers across the country who are shelling out their own hard-earned cash to pay for books, pens, pencils and other basic supplies that schools have provided in the past.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

Do they pay proportionally to the damage they cause to the roads?

No, they don't. That's the point. The increase in fuel usage is not tracked with the increase in road damage due to more massive vehicles.

the point is stupid though. It's like saying we have $100 to purchase groceries this month but because Junior didn't contribute his 25% that he eats, we will be perfectly fine with spending it on beer and smokes instead. Trucks pay more, maybe not as much as you want, but there is more than enough money collected to cover the amounts of damage done to the roads each year. The problems arise when new roads are created which are not yet paid for by use taxes, when money is siphoned off to pay for pensions or bike paths or housing instead of the roads. It's like saying we will ignore the government buying booze and smokes with the road money because trucks don't pay as much as you want them to.

Nope. The total revenues from fuel taxes aren't even enough for all of the necessary road spending,

I never said they were. I said they were enough to cover damage to the roads.

and nope, most road construction is private contractors, state pensions don't factor in nearly as much as graft and corruption from that,

It doesn't matter if the road construction is private, pensions are still being paid on state and local employees from the road funds and all you manged to do is show where more waste is reinforcing my point.

bike paths are a trivial expense that benefits the public at large,

Um.. no they are not. A bike path in the town nearest to where I live ended up costing over 10 million dollars just in real estate acquisitions for the 15 mile path to nowhere important. Then they had to build basically a single lane road because they expected emergency vehicles to be able to drive on it when people have accidents or heart attacks and so on on the paths. Add on several bridges, modifications to existing bridges, and I'm not sure what is trivial about it. Hell, look into the bike path around Louisville Kentucky, it's 110 miles and even created several parks in the process.

residential roads are kinda essential to the whole system working, those commercial trucks wouldn't be worth anything if their customers couldn't buy the products.

I don't know what gave you the idea I thought otherwise. Those residential roads need repairs just as much as highways where trucks go will need. The problem is they do not collect taxes on those roads like for highways and they should be paid out of local taxes seeing how each local residential road increases property values for the local government. Why should a truck who doesn't even drive on them have to pay to maintain them when your primary complaint is that trucks need to pay the amount of damages they create? When states spend the highway trust fund on local residential roads so developers do not have to build them, it takes away from the funding to maintain roads already being used.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Please increase my tax rate and properly fund our schools. I am tired of all the badly educated dumbasses, and it horrifies me to see kids only 10 years behind me have to rack up much more debt than I did to go to even a low end college.

If you knew the reality of misappropriation of education funds and pork spending much with the intent to cause mental harm to children, you would have a similar feeling about funding schools as you do about funding the military industrial complex. It's been going on for decades. Do you really want to fund this?

Note: If you're too cowardly to watch this video and become educated about modern education, then don't bother to reply or moderate.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

YOU can't be taken seriously because most of us out here know what $1TRILLION could have done for infrastructure and education.

Please stop showing the world how moronic you can be. $1trillion would not have been spent on any infrastructure or education because it was all borrowed money. This means that the government in all their wisdom decided it was wise to spend money we didn't have to the reasons associated with what it was spent on. It simply would not have been spent otherwise or we would have also already been spending 1 trillion on whatever you thought was necessary. It's not even the federal government's job to spend on education or infrastructure outside of post roads so it's like you are crying that the people who are not supposed to do something are not doing something you want them to do. but it makes you appear completely idiotic because you do not appear to understand they are not supposed to be doing it in the first place. Do they not teach government and civics in high school any more or have you just not yet reached the grades in which the classes are taught?

But no, we've got flag-waving racist imbeciles like you who want to piss it all away on odious shit, like killing brown people, and politicians who will pander to them and suck the cocks of the military industrial complex.

Again, you are trying too hard to look like a complete moron that no one should take seriously.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Frobnicator]

Our world needs a unified tax code that applies evenly to everyone. No loopholes, no dodges. Everyone pays their share no matter how the company / individuals lives. My suggestion would be for the united states to make it simple. If you sell one product in the United states, you will pay US tax rates on your income. Period. If you have paid taxes somewhere else, you can deduct that amount from the amount you owe the US, but you cannot dodge paying those taxes somewhere. If a company doesn't like it, they are free to not sell products in the United states.

That is logical from several standpoints, but people's emotions prevent it.

People from a region want certain jobs, and they demand results from government leaders, not logic.

How can you get jobs? Entice businesses to move in or to form. How do you encourage business? Tax breaks and other government money. Money to entrepreneurs. Money to small businesses. Money to relocated or new offices.

In the short term that means results to the politicians, meaning re-election. In the short term it means more jobs. In the short term it means growth. In the short term it means an improvement in local life. In the short term it means getting re-elected. Most of society does not think about the long term handcuffs, but in the short term, it means the results most people want, so longer term consequences are ignored.

That's why the uniform taxes won't work. Not because it isn't logical in itself, but because it deprives governments of one of the most powerful incentives (rather than punishments) in their toolbox.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

You must have grown up a long time ago, in a school district far away. Today teachers have to buy their own supplies, out of their own personal funds.

I grew up in the 70's and early 80's.

Of course I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the rest of your post. Are you suggesting that every school district within the United States is government by the same loons as one or two school districts in a specific state? Do you realize that it is the state's job to fund schools and often the local political subdivisions do it through property taxes. Do you realize that school districts and even city wide schools are not the same even in the same states or county within that state?

Of course I'm left wondering if this has anything to do with your first linked story.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/exclusive-school-officials-lose-356m-special-education-funds-article-1.1912801

Your second link is even more interesting. There you present a teacher who is crying that because he wants to run outside the box and accepted lesson plans, he has to purchase supplies to do so on his own. Sure it would be nice if everything was free, but it's sort of his own doing there.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

If a company is a citizen, they shouldn't be allowed to deduct personal expenses like rent where they live. I cant do that as a human citizen, so why should a corporate citizen be allowed to do so. Don't want to pay the tax? Then cede your citizenship and right to lobby or move out of state entirely.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Agripa]

That does not solve anything when the funds are fungible. Increased revenue designated for a specific purpose will displace general revenue which can then be allocated to pork projects. Lotteries used for educational funding are a good example of this.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Immerman]

>but yes, it works out to about 4 times as much being paid per mile driven than regular cars

How is that a "but"? Did you possibly misread? I said 4th power, not 4x as much. At 4x the per-mile tax rate, a 18-wheeler is still only paying for 1/2400 of it's proportional share of road wear and tear costs. And yes, standing, starting and stopping does damage to the roads. And it does much more damage when you're talking about commercial vehicle. No, restricting roads to lightwieght personal vehicles wouldn't make them last forever, but they would last much longer.

As for waste, I made no comment whatsoever in regards to it - and neither did you in the comment that I replied to. I also didn't address the advantages and shortcomings of non-compartmentalized tax revenue. I was only addressing your claim that commercial trucks pay more in taxes. Yes they do, if you're looking at dollars per mile, but if you look instead at dollars per amount of damage they do, as would reasonably be charged by private toll roads, they pay far, far less.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans who are not billionaires or corporations need to stop buying into the BS propaganda and start demanding that billionaires and corporations pay their fair share.

There, fixed that for ya. I think most people would not mind paying their fair share of taxes if the billionaires and corporations would pay their fair share too, and our taxes would stop being wasted and used to line the pockets of politicians etc...

What we really need is a flat tax law. People who are at or below the poverty would pay no taxes (federal, state or local). Those above that level of income would pay a flat percentage of their income (the same percentage for everyone and every corporation). No tax loopholes for anyone. And no shifting profits to other countries to avoid taxes allowed. Money made here is taxed here. Anyone caught trying to avoid paying their fair share of taxes would pay fines of 10 times what the taxes would have been. See the proposed 28th amendment to the constitution for more required changes.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

I never said education was a waste. I said there is waste in education. big difference

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[RoccamOccam]

Sen. Proxmire would not be considered as having been in the political right in the country of which he was a senator, which is the country about which we were discussing.

As a side note, the common refrain that 'the U.S. left is "right-wing" compared to the "rest of the world"' conveniently ignores the large percentage of Islamically-controlled countries in the world.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, having actual employees who do the job and the infrastructure to run your business is fucking great, so long as the employer doesn't have to pay a dime. I mean, why should employers have to PAY for stuff?

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[MrBigInThePants]

You don't live in a country where they are squandered and your democracy is one in name only then?

I love paying taxes when the country is run for the benefit of the people living there...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[CptPicard]

Incidentally, I just today read an article about some Finnish developers with experience developing big game titles in Silicon Valley. They had been thinking about where to set up their own business, and they chose to return to Finland. The reason to this is that despite pay being much higher in the US, the cost of living can also be high and things like daycare and education for kids are both superior and cost-effective here, despite them being paid through taxes. They even argued that the infrastructure we get through taxation should be a draw for knowledge-workers, especially if they're planning on a family.

I don't know about the American style of government, but the government-waste meme is not a natural law. Then again I fail to see how you could ever get to the point where we are in things like public education, as that would require individual steps to be taken that would be resisted as "Socialist".

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

I simply picked 2 things off the top of my head. I could write a 3 volume book on government waste but i figured 2 was good enough for a forum...

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

all their employees pay taxes

all their customers pay taxes

they are directly responsible for a lot of tax money to the state

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

im a libertarian thank you very much. your snark is unjust, perhaps you should come up with a better handle

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

i never siad abandon government. I said reign in spending. big difference. I dont know if you are intentionally twisting what I wrote, or you simply dont get it

no new taxes until government waste is reigned in.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[sumdumass]

How is that a "but"? Did you possibly misread? I said 4th power, not 4x as much. At 4x the per-mile tax rate, a 18-wheeler is still only paying for 1/2400 of it's proportional share of road wear and tear costs. And yes, standing, starting and stopping does damage to the roads. And it does much more damage when you're talking about commercial vehicle. No, restricting roads to lightwieght personal vehicles wouldn't make them last forever, but they would last much longer.

No, I didn't misread, I dismissed your claim altogether as it is unnecessary. Did you misread that?

As for waste, I made no comment whatsoever in regards to it - and neither did you in the comment that I replied to.

I know you didn't mention it which is why I said you ignore it. But I'm pretty clear the comment I made which you replied does in fact mention it. In case reading comprehension is not a strong point or perhaps English is a second language "the money is diluted and used for none road uses like state pensions, mandatory union scale wages, bike paths and residential roads that trucks are never allowed to drive on any ways" is what was said regarding it.

Perhaps I'm the one with the comprehension problem and simply do not see your point the way you wish to express it.

Yes they do, if you're looking at dollars per mile, but if you look instead at dollars per amount of damage they do, as would reasonably be charged by private toll roads, they pay far, far less.

No.. Private toll roads operate in a similar structure to fuel taxes in that they charge more for lighter vehicles and less for larger vehicles than the amount of damage caused by each. I've driven on them before with 5 axle vehicles and while it's quite a bit more expensive than a car, it is still not proportionate as you describe. It's also not far less either.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

I oppose giving tax breaks to individual companies. Taxes should apply to all companies, businesses, or individuals the same way (not necessarily a flat tax, just that the tax is the same for whatever level of income). I suppose you could give tax breaks to a certain industry or category of business, but even that is dicey.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the concept but absolutely HATE the implementation/reality, everything the government does costs exponentially more than what it would cost in the real world, the hideous waste in government makes me resent every cent I hand over to them.

I believe that the concept to which you refer is in part "the partial management of the lives of the masses by a select few". I believe such systems necessitate waste as compared to "the real world" (people making their own choices with their own money).

It is partly because of the waste that I oppose the concept.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[nbauman]

Please step away from the 50's and 60's, the "military-industrial" complex is way to small to effect the economy. DoD spend about $600 billion a year (of which about $300 Billion is spent on salaries, benefits, etc.) and that pales in comparison to the rest of the nearly $4 Trillion federal budget and won't budget the $17 Trillion U.S. economy. In fact, even large companies are doing all they can to get away from reliance on DoD because of uncertain funding and small ball funding.

According to Joe Stiglitz, who must know something about economics because he won a Nobel prize for it, the cost of the Iraq war was at least $3 trillion. That's $10,000 per capita. One of the big costs of the war turns out to be paying pensions and lifetime health care for military. http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

$3 trillion is about 2 years of all health care payments for everybody in the country. Medicare alone is about $500 billion a year, so the Iraq war cost 6 years of Medicare.

At one time I used to hear people say, "If we didn't spend so much money on the military we would have more money for things like health care," and I used to correct them because military spending was small in comparison to health care. Now I can't correct them any more. Since the war on terrorism, military spending is a blank check.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

It's seems as though you're one of the only libertarians here. Your comment about the hypocracy has driven most slashdot commentators to actually defend taxation and profess love for the system. I'm honestly rather shocked by this. I thought slashdotters, on the whole, had a slightly different view of government.

Perhaps there's a block of totalitarians that have come from some other site to dominate this story.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

And knowing they'll always squeeze as much as possible out of us and then decide that another place will bend over even further, why make those concessions in the first place? We need to be encouraging systems that are above subsistence.

Solution: Let some other place bend over further and be glad to be rid of the parasite. Let all the businesses leave. You can be free of this tax injustice and lead the world by example. When other regions see how great life is for you they'll follow suit.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[ganjadude]

it is strange as usually there are a lot more libertarian minded people here. i guess they are all out doing things with their lives this weekend

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some canals that still get heavy usage. While it was technically completed early in the 20th century rather than the 1800s, the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal still carries a huge amount of traffic. It replaced the old Illinois and Michigan Canal which was finished in the mid-1800s. I've sat and watched the lock at Starved Rock on the Illinois River, and it's a regular traffic flow most of the year. That traffic almost all came through the canal.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[nbauman]

Your second link is even more interesting. There you present a teacher who is crying that because he wants to run outside the box and accepted lesson plans, he has to purchase supplies to do so on his own. Sure it would be nice if everything was free, but it's sort of his own doing there.

What you call "outside the box" is known in affluent districts, and in other countries, as "teaching science."

I later met Soviet emigres who had better-equipped high schools than I did. No wonder they beat us into space. No wonder Sergei Brinn created Google.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

600 billion is over 15% of the budget, to argue that that is not significant is MORONIC. it is a massive part of the budget and government spend and has a very significant effect economically, even when talking about the entire US economy.

Re: Everyone loves taxes

[cthulhu11]

There are 68000+ millionaires in King County, not including real estate. Guess where most of them came from? Microcultists can afford to pay their share.

Re:Everyone loves taxes

[Jack Griffin]

Which is it? Are you trolling or an imbecile? My guess is a little of both but either appears obvious from your comment.

I'm not American so your comment about State an Federal is somewhat misguided. You probably feel pretty stupid right now eh bro?

Definitions count!

[eyepeepackets]

What do you can it when you put the costs of doing business off onto anyone and everyone else?

Profit!

What do you think they study in MBA school, civics?

Re:Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

That is Republican-style thinking. The current ruler of Microsoft, John W. Thompson, is such a diehard Republican that he actively supported Obama in 2008 in order to hurt him. At the time, he was at Symantec. We all know what a horrific company they are. Now, he runs Microsoft. It's amazing how well the Republican-run media has kept him out of the spotlight. He doesn't believe in paying his fair share, and the company he runs certainly doesn't pay their fair share.

Re:Definitions count!

[garyisabusyguy]

Unfortunately most business ethics as taught these days highlight the need to return value to the shareholders over most everything else

They like to highlight ideas like, "how would you feel if your grandmother saw this on the front page", or "think how the cost of criminal prosecution would hurt your company", while simultaneously propagandizing grandma to believe that being a tax cheat is like the Founders of the country, or subverting Congress to reduce the punishments associated with their crimes

If grandma is pleased that you are a tax cheat, and the fines for being one are negligible, there is no barrier in the current world of 'business ethics' to doing it

Re: Definitions count!

[kenh]

"republican-controlled media" - good one.

MS is paying taxes in NV, where the licensing corp is located.

It is not right to say MS isn't paying taxes, it simply is avoiding Washigton State's higher tax rate. I bet if Washington state lowered it's tax rate to equal Nevada's MS would consider relocating MS licensing group back to Washington State... How about it Washington state, do you want the tax revenues or the talking point against MS?

Re:Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, your post makes no sense either as sarcasm or as information.

Just so that there is no confusion: Thompson's support for Obama was genuine, and Obama was considering him for Secretary of Commerce; Pelosi appointed him to the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission.

Microsoft is run by Democrats and progressives, and has been for a long time; the fact that he wants lots of government spending benefiting him (CS education) while lobbying against taxes for people close to him is typical for Democrats and progressives.

Re: Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Democratic party is significantly to the right of the main "conservative" party in just about every other country in the developed world, and still just about every major media outlet, MSNBC included attempts to stake out a position somewhere between the Dems and the Republicans. Yet somehow this absurd notion of a "liberal media" persists. The mainstream media in this country ranges from merely conservative to radical, lunatic right (fox).

There is no liberal media in the U.S. And for that matter, there are very few liberals.

Re:Definitions count!

[Fire_Wraith]

In other news, Microsoft announced that they needed the government to increase the number of H-1B visa workers allowed into the country, because the American educational system just wasn't producing enough skilled workers to meet the needs of high tech companies.

Re:Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

In business schools, including for MBA, ethics is mandatory. Programs include it in order to be recognized.

But of course, once the graduates are out in the field it's another game.

Just like for salespeople the only metric is how much money they bring in, the only metric for a CEO is how much profit under his/her watch.

Now, there is a cynical view that it's all about the rich getting richer, the 1%, etc. But in fact, anyone who has a retirement fund, or almost any fund, or trades during the day from their desk, or many other examples of the "little guy", is just as much motivated on only one thing: the stocks to go up.

Well, of course the utter richest may game the system but that's a legal topic or one that should be ;)

Re: Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nevada gets the majority of revenue from gambling, and is a unique state in that respect.

Nevada's infrastructure is next to nothing, Reno & Las Vegas are the only population centers, and their entire revenue is based around gambling.

In contrast, Washington has decent education, a variety of revenue sources (including agriculture, timber, software, defense, etc.). There is no need for WA to drop down to NV standards.

Re:Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately most business ethics as taught these days highlight the need to return value to the shareholders over most everything else

In publicly traded companies, is this not what the law requires?

Re: Definitions count!

[im_thatoneguy]

Nevada's corporate tax rate is 0%. That works for a state that is propped up by high roller Japanese business men at the craps table. It doesn't work for Washington State which has a 'real' economy.

Microsoft needs the benefits of a 'real' state economy like Washington's where people can work and live outside of the gaming or US Airforce industry but they want the tax rate of a state who is willing to lose money on every other industry.

Re: Definitions count!

[ultranova]

I bet if Washington state lowered it's tax rate to equal Nevada's MS would consider relocating MS licensing group back to Washington State...

And then Nevada lowers its tax rate to get it back, and then it's Washington's turn again, the end result being that Microsoft pays a nominal tax if any at all. And since that means other people and companies must pay more to make up the difference, their effective tax rate goes up, they do the same, and ultimately all tax burden gets concentrated on those too poor to move. But of course they can't pay, so the state must cut education, infrastructure maintenance, law enforcement, etc. And that, in turn, makes the state an even less attractive location for business.

It's simply another manifestation of the illness that's killing capitalism. But at least the process of decay is fascinating to watch, as pathological patterns become the norm and eat away the structure of society. Sooner or later it's frayed enough that some crisis launches the final domino effect of collapse.

How about it Washington state, do you want the tax revenues or the talking point against MS?

Washington state wants to survive, just like any living thing. Unfortunately, being a cultural organism rather than biological one limits its options, since it must be careful not to discredit the very mythology that justifies its own existence. And in the US, the mythology of the nation has been tightly coupled with the mythology of capitalism. Untangling them or altering capitalism to less toxic form is a job for the prophetic archetype; Washington state can do little but play for time and hope one appears before it runs out.

Of course, the whole reason prophets are so rare is because you always run the risk of being one of those things found wanting and cast out, but at some point the prevalent mythology of the society has been exhausted of its possibilities so there's little choice except to get a new one or die.

Re:Definitions count!

[sumdumass]

I believe the word that fits is a fiduciary duty. And I'm glad the op said value not profit because they are not always the same thing.

Re:Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

"is this not what the law requires?"

No. Absolutely not.

Damaging the company can get the board fired, but that's still a civil action, and that doesn't need any law, just some asshole wanting to get their own way because they have pots of cash (shares).

Re: Definitions count!

[Anonymous Coward]

A common myth in that mythology is that the US is a capitalist country, think again and hard about what the meaning of capitalism is and you might find that Clinton era democrats might have been more capitalists than any of the republicans since the start of the XX century (hint: capitalism does not rest on the lazy hands and minds of the unproductive sloths that use congressional friends to get business done).

Alternatively

[wombatmobile]

“In Venezuela Chavez has made the co-ops a top political priority, giving them first refusal on government contracts and offering them economic incentives to trade with one another. By 2006, there were roughly 100,000 co-operatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers. Many are pieces of state infrastructure – toll booths, highway maintenance, health clinics – handed over to the communities to run. It’s a reverse of the logic of government outsourcing – rather than auctioning off pieces of the state to large corporations and losing democratic control, the people who use the resources are given the power to manage them, creating, at least in theory, both jobs and more responsive public services. Chavez’s many critics have derided these initiatives as handouts and unfair subsidies, of course. Yet in an era when Halliburton treats the U.S. government as its personal ATM for six years, withdraws upward of $20 billion in Iraq contracts alone, refuses to hire local workers either on the Gulf coast or in Iraq, then expresses its gratitude to U.S. taxpayers by moving its corporate headquarters to Dubai (with all the attendant tax and legal benefits), Chavez’s direct subsidies to regular people look significantly less radical.”

Naomi Klein

Re:Alternatively

[jcr]

Has anyone told Naomi Klein that the Chavistas have reached the end stage of socialism already? They're out of toilet paper, just like the Soviets.

-jcr

Re:Alternatively

[schnell]

I'm happy as the next guy to pillory Halliburton, which deserves little but scorn for its shocking profiteering in US government contracts. But you probably don't want want to cite dated Chavezista leftie Froot-Loops talking about how the rapidly disintegrating former Venezuelan economy is a model for anything except citizen outrage.

Just ask the folks living in the former Socialist Paradise where condoms now cost $755/pack on the black market because the Bolivar is worth less than toilet paper and it turned out that Chavez was mortgaging his country's future to buy temporary popularity with oil dollars.

Re:Alternatively

[ChunderDownunder]

How did that end up?

Chavez is entombed and inflation was running at 69% as of December.

Re:Alternatively

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and how is that working out for Venezuela?

Re:Alternatively

[Kergan]

They're out of toilet paper, just like the Soviets.

Or the US:

http://priceonomics.com/the-gr...

Re:Alternatively

[maestroX]

I'd prefer a working democracy, http://www.latimes.com/world/m....
We need a banking system reform though.

Re:Alternatively

[Jack Griffin]

A lot of people in the US are out of toilet paper too. You probably just choose to ignore them....

Re:Alternatively

[cascadingstylesheet]

And that's why Venezuela is the paradise it is today.

Re:Alternatively

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. We've always got the New York Times for that.

Just throw more of other peoples' money at it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely that will improve things!

Re: Just throw more of other peoples' money at it!

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's how we got Obamacare.

Don't give him any more ideas!

income taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd favor some sort of carefully crafted state-level constitutional amendment to create income taxes. But with it earmarked for education.

Re:income taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that I have time, here is my clarification...

In the constitution to prevent meddling by legislators.
State-level only
Standard deduction equal to 138% to 250% of the poverty level. I'd prefer 250%, but I'd settle for the same minimum (138%) that the ACA gives us for Medicaid.
3% rate cap, so rich people can be secure knowing they'd never have to pay more than 3%.
100% of the revenue, less the cost to administer the tax, would be used for k-12 education.

Re:income taxes

[0123456]

I'd favor some sort of carefully crafted state-level constitutional amendment to create income taxes. But with it earmarked for education.

Why would you want to give more money to a system that's almost totally failed, and unfit for purpose?

Modern schools were designed in 19th century Prussia to churn out compliant factory workers and soldiers, and most Western nations adopted similar systems after the 1% of the time saw how successful they were at making them money and keeping them in power. They're anachronistic nonsense in the 21st century.

It's public education

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are they even using private software at all when a public (free as in both speech and beer) alternative exists?

As opposed to....

[Anonymous Coward]

Google pushesf for Public Education Funding While Avoiding Taxes

Apple pushes for Public Education Funding While Avoiding Taxes

Goldman Sachs pushes For Public Education Funding While Avoiding Taxes

ExxonMobil pushes For Public Education Funding While Avoiding Taxes

Koch Brothers pushes For Public Education Funding While Avoiding Taxes.

etc...

I'm all for capitalism but American capitalism was never about Rand's definition. It was about working hard and smart and being rewarded appropriately for your effort. It was OK to be rich as long as you earned it. What's currently going on though is a return to aristocracy rather than meritocracy.

People that richly benefited from our mixed economy are now going on to screw the rest of us because they are in a decision making role. Back in the 50s major CEOs made 50 times what an employee made. Today they are making 500 times. We even have companies like Warlmart that shamelessly depend on food stamps to subside their employees wages. At some point there is going to be major blow back if major corporation continue hoarding all the wealth by evading taxes and paying their employees crap. (as happened to Greece where their own government and elite screwed over their own countrymen)

Re:As opposed to....

[Anonymous Coward]

At some point there is going to be major blow back if major corporation continue hoarding all the wealth by evading taxes and paying their employees crap. (as happened to Greece where their own government and elite screwed over their own countrymen)

There is no reason at all to be taxing corporations. A corporation is not a person, and treating one as if it were is a huge mistake for a society. The portion of corporate income that goes to the wealthy executives and shareholders can taxed as income, with a progressive income tax and no loopholes. Otherwise, you end up with the certainty that the corporation will simply pass the tax on to the consumers. Since all businesses will have to do this (the US tort system makes running a non-corporate business a really dumb idea, so even small businesses end up becoming corporations if the owner has any sense at all, even if just in the form of a LLC), it creates inflation and destroy's everybody's savings, plus hammering the poor, who get hit with the cumulative effect of everybody having to raise prices. If business A provides components or raw materials to business B, and both have to raise prices, the poor dumb consumer ends up getting hit twice!

The politicians can hide the inflation for a while behind monetary policy (assuming the public is dumb enough to fall for this, which seems to be the case), but that simply makes the final accounting more painful. Monetary policy is not a strong enough tool to compensate for BOTH natural inflation that any economy will experience from time to time as a result of natural cycles, AND artificial inflation created by stupid short-sighted self-centered policies.

Corporate taxes are stupid, as are general sales taxes or "value added" taxes (taxes on luxuries are really the only sales taxes that make sense, but even that is tricky since it is hard to define what we mean by "luxury" - think about it!). Since the poor and middle class feel the effects of these policies vastly more than the wealthy, you end up with an increasing gap between the rich and the poor. This is particularly bad in the USA, where the legal system is completely out of control, with lawyers creating enormously complex laws to generate future business for themselves, laws that provide lots of complexity to hide loopholes allowing tax evasion by the rich. This is why the USA has such a huge and increasing gap between rich and poor, relative to countries that don't allow as much tax evasion by the wealthy.

Most people are too dumb to understand the implications of these policies and behaviors, and our politicians shamelessly take advantage of this. The whole "blame the rich corporations" mantra is about shifting the blame from where it really resides. But shifting the blame like this has huge negative long term economic implications.

Back in the 50s major CEOs made 50 times what an employee made. Today they are making 500 times.

Tax the rich people, not the abstractions. When they evade the taxes, put them in jail or take truly painful amounts from them in penalties or fines (but do it ethically).

Same old Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

It is just the same old unethical Microsoft. Dealing with them is like dealing with Al Capone - they'll always try to stab you in the back when you aren't looking. No company in the history of mankind has been fined so heavily for corrupt business dealings as MS - about 3 billion Dollars at my last count, so this new thing is small fry.

Also Rupert Murdoch of Fox etc

[dbIII]

In the Boyer lecture Rupert Murdoch delivered something like two years ago he was calling for increased state funding of education - this from a man who even changed nationality to avoid tax.
However it's a good idea even if the people who do not want to pay for it are pushing it.

Business as usual

[Anonymous Coward]

See, they are "supporting" US education, which still cannot meet their carefully crafted job requirements, so they deserve more H-1Bs.

captcha: fascism

Monoculture

[dbIII]

That doesn't tell us anything about any sort of "ism", it just tells us the obvious that even when a monoculture, like selling oil, looks like the way to make everyone rich you can still get fucked over when the global market undercuts the cost you are spending to get it out of the ground.

Re:Monoculture

[SuricouRaven]

See Russia right now, along with the desperate efforts of some Gulf states to diversify before the oil runs out.

You mean Obama's Halliburton?

[Anonymous Coward]

THE Halliburton who's exec Obama golfs with and to whom he gave a no-bid contract ??

I guess since it's not Bush and Cheney(aka Darth Vader) in-bed with Halliburton but now, but rather Obama and Biden(aka Jar Jar Binks), everything's A-OK!

Funny, but when Democrats cuddle with cronies like Halliburton (friends with who ever is in power, because they are crony capitalists) Republicans' big complaint is that this is hypocrisy (given the way Democrats screamed about it when it was the other team) and press (who self-identify as approx 90% Democrat) are giving it 1/10th the coverage. When Repubs huddlled with Halliburton, however, Democrats shrieked that the underlying acts were EVIL. For progreessives, the ends justify the means and there are no absolutes - and hypocrisy is just another means th their ends.

Government is not the solution, but the problem.

[chenhao2009]

It seems many people still do not understand that giving government more money cannot lead to better education or other social services. "Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." Low tax, small government, and more private schools and charter schools!

Re:Not true

[Moof123]

Please show me at least one example of a society at any time in history that survived for any length of time without some form of taxation. I think you will have to go back to just about the hunter-gatherer days to find an example. You can leave the country and revoke your citizenship if you want (Yes, we should make this easier to do), but in the mean time I suggest you propose a viable alternative before going all anarchist on us.

Microsoft is very typical of business

[Anonymous Coward]

Businesses love the idea that other people are paying for the resources that the use (educated people, electricity, roads, public safety, etc.), while running like an overweight 12 year old after a chocolate covered ice cream cone from taxes, fair wages, sane and reasonable treatment of employees and any other kind of responsibility. Progressive income tax with no loopholes? Gawd No!

That's why he gets paid the big bucks

[Bob_Who]

He makes sure that nobody else gets the big bucks, whenever possible, and he is accountable to the corporate entity, not to the society from which it resides.

Corporate interests care about the education of people that they need to yoke. Shareholders are the only citizens that really matter to a corporate charter.

Lawyer speak with forked tongue, as usual.

Income Tax won't help.

[Anonymous Coward]

California has an income tax, and the in the San Francisco Bay Area the sales tax is between 9.25 and 9.75 percent. Yet California schools are nowhere near top in the country.

Re:Income Tax won't help.

[Z00L00K]

It's how the taxes are managed, not where the taxes comes from.

The budget system used by many states and countries is what leads to the waste of tax money.

Re:Government is not the solution, but the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems many people still do not understand

They understand completely. They're just willing to sacrifice everything in their quest to order your life to their exacting standards.

Can't be all up in everybody else's business without the stomping jackboot of government.

I would have voted for the income tax if...

[Anonymous Coward]

they had replaced the sales tax with it. But instead it was just a foot in the door to add more taxes.

Right now, no politician would touch any bill that adds a sales tax. But after it's added? Then it's no big deal to increase it just a little here and a little there. Lower the max income of those who pay.. increase the % just a bit.. suddenly we've got a very high sales tax (10%+) and an income tax.

Corporate subsidies

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a useful resource consolidating the subisidies extorted by corporations.

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/subsidy-tracker

Extracts from the Top 100 Parent Compnay list

1 Boeing $13.9 billion
2 Intel $5.9 billion
3 Alcoa $5.8 billion ...
19 Berkshire Hathaway $1.4 billion ...
22 Tesla Motors $1.3 billion ...
49 Goole $0.6 billion ...
77 Amazon $0.4 billion

Jobs Creators (TM) doing what the do best.

Sane people love taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

because they know that they're paying for the society they live in.

Those who say people like them when someone else is paying them either don't live in the society therefore don't see why they pay when "everyone else is benefiting from it too!" or believe that they deserve to be that rich, but it's being taxed and/or government that is stopping this happening.

Re:Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck your "civilization". you collectivist scum will look so smart when all this pollution finally kills us all. without taxes we couldn't be coerced into funding all this destructive shit.

There isn't nearly as much waste

[rsilvergun]

as you think. Most of the fed's budget is made up of taking care of old people (Medicare/Social Security) and the Military.

Oh boy, where do I start?

[rsilvergun]

Just more personal "personal responsibility" politics that complete ignore reality. Goody. Where do I begin?

Not everyone has the chops to make it through college. Their brains don't work that way. But there's nothing for you in life if you don't make it through anymore thank to outsourcing and a complete lack of protection for local industry. How do these guys whose brains _can't_ comprehend AP credits galore compete with a guy in China working 70 hours a week breathing carcinogens?

Then there's the parents. Half the country goes out of it's way to keep people from opting out of parenthood in any other way than abstinence. Try being lower income and getting birth control or a vasectomy in Alabama and let me know how that works out for you. But once again, "Personal Responsibility" politics to the rescue! Ignore the fact that sex is a basic human drive on par with eating/breathing. Ignore the fact that when you're dirt poor with no hope it's hard to say no to the few sources of joy you have in your life. It's so much easier to look down on the little hussies and the dead beat dads, ain't it? It absolves you from the moral implications of abandoning 70%+ of the populace to their (very miserable) fate.

Schools can fix a _lot_ if we let them. Schools can and should act as parents when parents _can't_ because our God damned society didn't equip the parent with the skills and resources needed to do so. This doesn't mean schools _replace_ the parent either. It means they support the parent. This is what it means to have a society and civilization and not "I got mine, f**k you".

Re:Government is not the solution, but the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all us of think of Reagan as well-respected. Many of us think of him as the start of our economic decline. Quoting him as gospel is thus not very persuasive.

Nope, now it's breast implants

[rsilvergun]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/16/venezuela-now-has-toilet-paper-but-no-breast-implants.html.

Jokes aside, they did have shortages. The gov't saw the problem and reacted to it. Problem solved. You'll note no one's talking about their TP shortage anymore. See, that's kinda the idea behind socialism. You see a problem and then instead of waiting for some phantom invisible hand to solve it you actually _do_ something.

Re:Nope, now it's breast implants

[jcr]

The gov't saw the problem and reacted to it. Problem solved.

Yes, they scrambled their Potemkin squad and rounded up some TP to show to foreign journalists. Great job, eh comrade?

Are they doing something about the rest of these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

waiting for some phantom invisible hand to solve it

Funny, but that invisible hand seems to be delivering a far better standard of living in countries that aren't ruled by commie rat bastards.

-jcr

Re:Government is not the solution, but the problem

[ScuzzMonkey]

This idea is as ridiculous as the opposite extreme, which is imagining that giving the government more money will lead to better education and other social services.

You're both wrong.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that there are many organizational and institutional issues in government agencies which can blow through influxes of funds without any appreciable improvement in services. Yet it's equally true that there are government agencies and programs which run at efficiency levels which beggar private alternatives in comparison.

Tired aphorisms are never going to be an adequate substitute for an intelligent examination of the actual problems faced and a realistic appraisal of the various strengths and weakness offered by public and private approaches.

you don't understand ...

[cascadingstylesheet]

... "progressive" means "other people pay".

Microsoft (and big business) Hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hypocrisy (defn.): Push education. Avoid paying taxes. Allow us to hire immigrants because they're cheaper than locals - or we'll just expand offshore. http://blogs.rollcall.com/technocrat/without-h-1b-visa-changes-microsoft-may-continue-foreign-expansion/

Government and big-business can push the whole "improve education" bushwa all they want. When these people graduate there's no jobs for them anyway. So the only reason that government/business are doing this seems to be for the "Dr Feelgood" factor, PR hoopla.

Eventually nobody local will be able to afford their stuff anyway, because they'll be earning nothing. Government doesn't care: they're only in for 2 terms or so and this is a long-term thing. Business doesn't care: they look like they've done something and they're still creaming it with overseas cheap labour.

The poor bastard in the middle is the person being the recipient of this extra education. No work, still have to pay off that student loan.

Why MS, Google, etc. Are Pushing CS Aggressively

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't get the Visas then flood the job pool with so many CS folk that hiring anyone would cost you a nickel.

Washington State

[Anonymous Coward]

...is a college in Pullman. It appears, however, that the article isn't concerned with financing just this one college, but all of eduction in the state of Washington.