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In New Zealand, a Legal Battle Looms Over Streaming TV

SpacemanukBEJY.53u writes After a threat from a law firm, two New Zealand ISPs have withdrawn services that let their customers navigate to content sites outside the country that world normally be geo-blocked. Using VPNs or other services to access content restricted by region isn't specifically outlawed in either New Zealand or in neighboring Australia, but it appears the entertainment industry is prepared to go to court to try and argue that such services can violate copyright law. Intellectual property experts said the situation in New Zealand, if it goes to court, could result in the first test case over the legality of skirting regional restrictions.

106 comments

  1. And back in the US by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    With ISPs now considered utilities, the path to similar restrictions is shorter and easier.

    1. Re:And back in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah - just get "Rachel" to start a new scam and spoof an IP as she does now with phone numbers to bombard us with the "last chance to take advantage of the President's tax stimulus package", and let the ISP's make money off those streams, and it will never end.

      RO

    2. Re:And back in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given they're run by the same media companies, there's no possible way of shortening the path.

    3. Re:And back in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And back in the US technology companies are allowed to flourish, the cost of living is remarkably cheaper and the average hard working tech worker can afford to support a family of 3 and own their own home on one income.

    4. Re:And back in the US by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I'm a hard working tech worker in New Zealand, supporting a family of 4 and own my own home.

    5. Re:And back in the US by spazzmo · · Score: 1

      Is it in Auckland? :-)

      --
      The cheese stands alone...
    6. Re:And back in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not. Who can afford to live there *and* have children that you're supposed to cloth and feed and drive to places on time? Auckland is just ridiculous. If you are there, get out, get out now :)

    7. Re:And back in the US by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I'm not stupid.

    8. Re:And back in the US by mjwx · · Score: 1

      With ISPs now considered utilities,

      In Australia ISP's have always been considered utilities.

      As such, it is not the responsibility of the ISP to police what you do, nor interfere with what you do with its service.

      Grey import in Australia is legal, the same applies to services that use geoblocking and other methods for price discrimination. However because the Australian courts cant stop it they turn a blind eye to people circumventing it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:And back in the US by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      I'm a hard working tech worker in New Zealand, supporting a family of 4 and own my own home.

      A sheep pen, a ewe,and three lambs with suspiciously human-looking features doesn't count there mate.

      Well, except perhaps in Australia.

  2. Game of Thrones by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hope all entertainment giants do this, because when people start discovering they can't get at the latest episodes of their favorite series, the sooner the political pressure will mount on governments to modify these archaic copyright laws.

    Why in the name of fuck would any fucking company want to fuck over its customers? What a sick and malignant industry the media giants have become.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:Game of Thrones by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Because, the entertainment industry has decided that it is 100% in control of who are their customers, when they are their customers, and how much they will have to pay for the privilege of being customers.

      In this case, I suspect because they've decided the people in New Zealand will get it six months later, for twice the price.

      The same as they don't want you to be able to buy a DVD elsewhere in the world and bring it into your own country and watch it.

      Of course the media industry is malignant, but they keep bribing or bullying lawmakers to stack the deck in their favor ... so much so that the copyright of multinational corporations is more firmly entrenched in the law than the rights of citizens on some topics.

      We live in a world in which the media companies have co-opted the legal system, with the help of governments who help push the agenda against the interests of their own citizens.

      If the media companies had any say in the matter, buying a CD to rip the songs to MP3 to play on your portable device would be illegal.

      Because they're assholes who somehow feel their business model is more important than property rights.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Game of Thrones by Mal-2 · · Score: 2

      This is all set up so they can rake over the richer countries without entirely locking themselves out of the less wealthy countries.

      In a world with region locking: "Let's charge $50 in Burgerland and Poutineville, because they'll pay it. But we also want to make some money off their neighbors to the south, who won't pay $50. (Maybe they can't, maybe it's the burned DVDs for sale on the street for $2.) But now we have to stop the people we want $50 from, from importing the $10 copies. Region locking!"

      In a world without region locking: "Let's charge $50 in Burgerland and Poutineville, because they'll pay it in order to have the content right now. We'll wait until the popularity goes down so that it's worth no more than $10 anywhere, and only then will we send it to places they'll only pay $10." By that time, those $2 burned DVD vendors have saturated the market so it's not even worth $10 there any longer.

      However, it seems to me there is a form of "region locking" that follows the same general divisions. It's called a "language". Don't ship discs with all languages, just the one relevant to the buyer. Monolingual Americans are not going to watch Game of Thrones in Spanish just to get it cheaper.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    3. Re:Game of Thrones by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      And monolingual New Zealanders aren't going to watch Game of Thrones in American just to get it cheaper?

    4. Re:Game of Thrones by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Geographical restrictions on digital content is an anachronistic holdover from from physical markets as applied to digital markets - from back in the days you couldn't just grab any sort of media from anywhere at any time off the internet. It's amazing how ridiculously non-adaptable the media companies have proven themselves to be. If you try to restrict a region, they'll just pirate the stuff anyhow, or (naturally) use a VPN to bypass country restrictions.

      These companies need to realize that there's really only ONE digital market. If they just made it convenient and affordable for customers to get their product instead of trying to control and coerce the markets, and they'd have a lot more success in the long run. They should be using the internet's strengths to reach more customers more easily, not fighting against it. Idiots.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    5. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then what happens to spanish-only speaking Grandma, living in the US, is willing to pay for the show but can't get it in language of her choice?

    6. Re:Game of Thrones by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      If the media companies had any say in the matter, buying a CD to rip the songs to MP3 to play on your portable device would be illegal.

      If the public had any stones, they would stop buying this shit. Your life will not come to an end if you miss the latest season of Game of Thrones. The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness does not encompass DVDs without region encoding. If you don't like the way they're selling their products don't consume them.

      I think the media is largely a bunch of obnoxious asshats and I've largely removed myself from their ecosystem. I don't subscribe to Netflix, own less than ten movies, and all of my television comes from an antenna. Pandora meets my music needs at a minimal cost.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:Game of Thrones by CaptainDork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good question.

      It's because the entertainment industry is in a panic. Everything's digital now, and that presents a major problem.

      Look at the population of tech-savvy people in that industry as compared to tech-savvy people not in that population.

      Computer literacy has grown exponentially, just as the Internet has, and the skill level to circumvent copyright laws and protections is minimal, especially when those of greater skills can inform the unwashed.

      The entertainment industry has long charged too much for its goods. That kind of obvious when you look at net income of these folks.

      They are going to have to bite the bullet and open the markets to legitimate commerce or give their stuff away by not dealing with reality.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    8. Re:Game of Thrones by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      I always see the affordable part, it's very affordable in most places, people just don't want to pay for it. That's all.

    9. Re:Game of Thrones by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      Well sure. But they have our best interest at heart and should be free to run their ISP business without any government interference... ;)

    10. Re:Game of Thrones by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      Note that in the story people are using a VPN to bypass country restriction. If they were just torrenting the content without wishing to pay for it, they wouldn't need to worry about this.

      I could easily torrent the media content I regularly watch, but I find it a lot easier to simply subscribe to a few streaming services, most of which cost less than eight or nine dollars a month. If a service is convenient and affordable, many people will use it, for practical reasons and/or the fact that they recognize that doing so supports the creators of the content they wish to see.

      Obviously, there's always going to be some people that will never pay for it.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    11. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why in the name of fuck would any fucking company want to fuck over its customers? What a sick and malignant industry the media giants have become.

      Because it is not ONE company. You see, some MAFIAA XYZ company makes some show called Shit Is Real. They broadcast it in MAFIAA state ASU. They don't give a rats ass about NAC state because that is MAFIAA ZYX company's turf. So XYZ sells "Shit is Real" rights in NAC state to ZYX.

      Now. in ZYX people can only view the Shit is Real show if they subscribe for $2000/mo to some magic package of shows that ZYX is pushing. But they don't want to pay that much. They notice that XYZ is allowing free access (or at very low price) in ASU. So they *pay* to be able to jump through hoops to be able to be XYZ customer.

      Now, ZYX is pissed. They paid for "rights" to sell their package and *their* customers are paying XYZ instead of them. They don't get "The Internets". They want to force *their* customers back under their umbrella and will use legal means (corporate for a beat down) to enforce their turf.

      This is why this is so fucked up. MAFIAA companies still work with "their turf" mentality. They don't care about producing shows and selling it directly to customers. "Little people" don't count in their eyes. Everyone on their turf is their lifelong subscriber - competition, as you an I see it, does not exist in their eyes.

    12. Re:Game of Thrones by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      No, you've still got the same situation.

      Australia, America and the UK are good rich countries. You can sell a series for $40 there - doesn't matter if it's via box or netflix. But China is a huge market too - and one where most people can't afford $40. You'd get hugely higher sales at a lower price, $10 or so. But if you do that, you create a situation where some enterprising individuals can go and buy the series for $10 in China, load up a shipping container, haul it to America and sell it for $20. The free market at work, balancing out a distorted price.

      In the physical world, such behavior manifests as grey market imports. In the online world, as VPN services for media. The underlying economics is the same, and in both case producers will take countermeasures. They may exploit natural linquistic barriers (ie, make sure the China release doesn't have English-language audio or subtitles), or they may introduce technological barrier like region codes and geo-locking.

    13. Re:Game of Thrones by PRMan · · Score: 1

      My cousin buys all her discs from an American import store. Imported American DVDs ($50 NZ) are usually cheaper than standard NZ DVDs ($60 NZ).

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    14. Re:Game of Thrones by PRMan · · Score: 2

      They are paying Netflix AND a VPN provider. They are paying extra compared to the USA.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    15. Re:Game of Thrones by gmack · · Score: 2

      6 years ago I moved from Canada to Spain. Should I have bought all new DVDs and Blu Rays when I did? And should I have bought them again when I came back last year? My favorite was the Blu Ray I bought from Amazon UK that had a US region lock so it refused to play in my Blu Ray player. The best fix? Rip it and stream it off my NAS.

      And don't even get me started on the social aspect. I spent 5 years having people send me links to movies and trailers only to discover they are region locked and getting the same complaint when I sent links to my friends and this is still a problem now that I have friends in 10 different countries. And if I wanted to play online scrabble against my family? Not permitted. Europeans can only play against other Europeans and not anyone in North America.

      Region coding is just plain evil and people hate it for more reasons than just not wanting to pay for things

    16. Re:Game of Thrones by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      The $50 version would have multiple languages.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    17. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope all entertainment giants do this, because when people start discovering they can't get at the latest episodes of their favorite series, the sooner the political pressure will mount on governments to modify these archaic copyright laws.

      1. In my country it is legal to reverse engineer code to make it compatible with another applications => I can watch in my DVD all regions.
      If given movie is not available in country X - can you claim that you "lost sale" when somebody is watching it in "no sale" area?
      I know, everything is about right time and pricing adjusted to the market (skin them, not fleece!)
      In Europe European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled, that you can use sat decoders with subscription from another country
      It was all about Premier League which was licensed cheaply in "not interested countries" like Romania and licensed at very high price in UK
      http://www.bbc.com/news/business-15162241

      If I am watching through the proxy/vpn from another country - what is the loss? I paid for it fair price as charged by rights owner? Or it is dumping price (compensated by high price abroad?)

    18. Re:Game of Thrones by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      Why in the name of fuck would any fucking company want to fuck over its customers?

      You misunderstand who the "customers" are.

      I live in Canada. Up here in America's hat, GlobalTV Canada has given NBC $X million dollars for the rights to air Saturday Night Live. In exchange, NBC has agreed to not distribute SNL up here - So most of the videos I might want to watch online are regionally blocked.

      NBC's 'customer' isn't me - It's GlobalTV Canada.

      Ditto all the other regionally blocked content here in the Great White North.

    19. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, it seems to me there is a form of "region locking" that follows the same general divisions. It's called a "language". Don't ship discs with all languages, just the one relevant to the buyer. Monolingual Americans are not going to watch Game of Thrones in Spanish just to get it cheaper.

      Hey! that is one of the reasons why "foreigners" are pissed off by region locking. When it will be available here it will be castrated by dubbing.
      My friend is learning Japanese also on movies (with subtitles). I got my first taste of Spanish trying to understand "Aquila Roja" purchased at amazon.es (no subtitles, Spanish TV serial) - I was able to view it thanks to anonymous persons who spend their time to prepare basic English subtitles (that is creative derived work too). language is not "region locking" - it is learning opportunity.

    20. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read "Game of Thrones". I am waiting with purchasing DVDs until Box Set is available with "Sale" label attached. This will be 1-2 years after last season.
      I can wait. I am patient. I have couple shelves of unread yet books and 8-12 steam games not yet installed.

    21. Re:Game of Thrones by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      This is the local media companies getting in a tiz, spreading lies through the local media saying what they're doing is stealing content and piracy and all they want to do is protect their rights and have people pay for content.

      When in actual fact, the services they want banned, referred to as Global Mode, do nothing more that get around geo-blocking. Giving New Zealanders the opportunity to pay the same price for the same content as someone in a different country. Doesn't help anyone to get content without paying for it. You just don't have to pay the local media company $60 a month just to watch a single show on HBO.

      Not to mention the shows Sky TV, Media Works or TVNZ don't bother to purchase, because they think we don't want to watch them.

    22. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If it can be sold at $10, why must others buy it at $40? If it can't be sold for $10, then why is it offered at $10?

    23. Re:Game of Thrones by BevanFindlay · · Score: 1

      I live in New Zealand and am a customer of one of the ISPs involved in this.

      The thing is, the media companies seem to miss that we're now in an international community, so if the people in Burgerland realise that they can import a disk at $10, rather than pay for a local copy at $50, they're going to do that. And, trying to prevent this is going to hurt their sales. Some years back, when I visited the USA, I thought I'd pick up a couple of DVDs as they were cheaper, but in the end I didn't, because they were the wrong region. I was more than happy to spend money on their product, but was prevented by the region locking.

      As for the case in question though, we never bothered updating our TV when NZ terrestrial broadcasting went digital as we just didn't have any interest in the lame TV on offer and/or stupid schedules for stuff we did want. We get pretty much all of our media online now (with the occasional rare visit to the local DVD store). If it's online in a format that's legal and easy (and of a decent quality and DRM free), then we'll get it that way, but that's rarely easy. What I think the media companies miss is that if you block access to the original sites, people are going to go elsewhere - choose your favourite TV show and see how long it takes you to find a reasonable streaming version of it using Google (e.g. "Watch Game of Thrones online"). (Interestingly, if my understanding of NZ law is correct - although IANAL - I don't think watching a streaming copy of something is illegal/punishable, but sharing one is).

      The more they make legitimate (or borderline-legitimate, like the present case) copies hard to get to, the more they (a) give people reason to hunt down illegal copies, and (b) give people reason to rip them off, because they're being nasty to us (I would be quite happy for the MPAA and RIAA to just die off, to be honest).

      I would be more than happy to have somewhere that I can pay a small fee per episode (say ~$1) to be able to download a DRM-free copy of my favourite shows. I don't want the only way to get something to be of questionable legality. I'd even be happy to watch a streaming version with ads, if I had to, and if the ads weren't too annoying (most I've seen so far that do this play the same ad 6 times in one show...) We have worked this out with music, why not with TV and movies?

      The media supply chain is competing with a (black) market with zero costs. The tighter they grip, the more they will lose. They need to open up and adapt, or they'll die off. At some point, someone is going to work out how to monetize torrent- or YouTube-distributed shows (maybe paid product placement, maybe Kickstarter), and by that point, it will be too late for the big boys to try and adapt. If they were smart, they would already be there. Apparently they're not smart.

      Gives me a lot of reason to like my ISP though - they're out to offer a useful service for their customers, and willing to fight for it. That kind of company I can support.

    24. Re:Game of Thrones by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      A blueray disc in NZ is around $30
      An entire season of a TV show can get above $60 though, Game of Thrones Season 4 is $68 on Blueray, $58 on DVD. A 20 DVD set of the first 4 seasons is $134

      Sounds like you cousin is getting ripped off.

    25. Re:Game of Thrones by viperidaenz · · Score: 0

      Yet it's still less than they would pay if they bought a Sky TV package.

    26. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The $50 version would have multiple languages.

      Naw, the American import comes only in Merkin.

    27. Re:Game of Thrones by BevanFindlay · · Score: 1

      Unless the ISP covers the VPN part itself (which is the case here). I'm in New Zealand and have friends who do pay for a VPN and the US version of Netflix. Netflix just launched in NZ, but from what I hear, the content choice is a lot more limited. I haven't dived into subscribing to either yet because (a) the NZ version of Netflix isn't guaranteed to have what I want, and (b) the overseas version isn't guaranteed to stay accessible (I'm a customer of one of the ISPs involved in this). If you gave me a service that would have current product (i.e. not more than about 2 hours after original airing) and a complete collection (i.e. all the shows, not just some, and more than just the most recent 3 episodes), I'd happily sign up. That's not an option here though, so I am prevented from paying.

    28. Re:Game of Thrones by BevanFindlay · · Score: 1

      This is just a case of adding an unnecessary middleman. If your customer's customer is the general public, then that's still where the money comes from, and they are still the ultimate customer. The reality of the modern internet-accessing world is that there is only one market. If you're dumb enough to sign a multi-million-dollar deal for something that is fundamentally unenforceable, then both parties deserve to lose money.

      Ergo, they're still abusing their customers. They still don't have a right to complain when someone circumvents their artificially-engineered restrictions.

      (And yes, I do realise that with most television media, the paying customer is actually the advertisers, not the general populace - however, advertisers are paying to get in front of as many eyeballs as possible, so it's still in the provider's best interest to make it as widely available as possible, with the ads included - which it won't be on a torrented copy). Smart people wouldn't region limit, but would have regionally-targeted ads.

    29. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't agree more, NZ'ers have been F*** over for long enough, and the issue is that nothing in the downloading dept will
      change, cause there are at least 3 corporates that have exclusive rights to this show and that show, so what are the public expected to do?
      have 3 separate accounts to watch the handful of shows they like ?
      Unfortunately the Gov'rn doesn't have a lot of nuts either, they will agree to anything a US Corporate Giant sayes

    30. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In this case, I suspect because they've decided the people in New Zealand will get it six months later, for twice the price."

      Actually, until recently, it was they merely didn't think of NZ. There simply was no 'legal' way of us getting this media in a timely fashion, so they half-heartly stomped on people downloading stuff, but basically didn't care that much. (Heck, waiting for the DVD box sets was usually the fastest 'legit' route - thankfully, multizone DVD players are the norm.)

      Now, we have some home-grown netflix knock offs, either owned by local telcos or a tv network provider (SkyTV) and they paid for 'exclusive rights' to online stream this stuff to NZ. Problem from an NZ consumer view is that we have a whole BUNCH of providers, none of which have all the content we want, and none are really as good as Netflix USA.

      Those companies are now whinging that their expensive agreements are, in reality, significantly less worthwhile as the target consumer would rather use Netflix USA instead and have been seeking out methods to do this.

      We've also recently (like a month ago) got Netflix NZ - but a classic example of this regional nonsense is that (as far as I know) they don't even have House of Cards on there, as that's on some other competing service already.

      In reality, most of these ventures will simply go bankrupt and bugger off. Eventually.

    31. Re: Game of Thrones by zurtle · · Score: 1

      Actually, this season, the NZ pay TV provider, SKY, will simulcast Game of Thrones at the same time as the U.S. If you wait six months it is broadcast on free-to-air TV.

      --
      Couldn't stand the weather
    32. Re:Game of Thrones by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      You'll note I specified monolingual Americans, which are the bulk of the country and thus the bulk of the target market for entertainment. I admit this logic may not hold in other countries, where English is a common second (or third or fourth) language.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    33. Re:Game of Thrones by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

      "If the media companies had any say in the matter, buying a CD to rip the songs to MP3 to play on your portable device would be illegal."

      The only reason it isn't is because it doesn't have any encryption to break like DVD/Bluray discs.

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    34. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same as they don't want you to be able to buy a DVD elsewhere in the world and bring it into your own country and watch it.

      Interestingly, this is explicitly legal under New Zealand law. That is to say, there's a special provision written into the law that says "you can legally circumvent any technological measure applied to prevent you from doing this."

      I like to take credit for that provision, as it was the subject of a submission by me to the relevant select committee when it was being written...

    35. Re:Game of Thrones by mikaere · · Score: 1

      Here is a post by the CEO of LightBox, one of the companies pushing for "clarification" around the legality of "Global Mode" which sets out her position.

      Perhaps inevitably, her position gets a hiding in the comments thread.

      --
      It's good luck to be superstitious
    36. Re:Game of Thrones by mjwx · · Score: 1

      This is all set up so they can rake over the richer countries without entirely locking themselves out of the less wealthy countries.

      And basically this is admitting that they're deliberately ripping off more wealthy countries...

      But that's not true. A movie in Thailand costs as much as a movie in the United States... but both are cheaper than Europe who are miles cheaper than New Zealand and Australia. That explanation makes no sense when you consider reality, Thailand is much poorer than the US but Europe isn't significantly wealthier.

      In a digital world with no borders, this not only makes no sense, but it's completely unenforceable.

      The Libertardians will argue that they're charging what the market will bear. But what they forget is that the free market doesn't exist in the entertainment industry because they have a government granted (and occasionally enforced) monopoly. The fact is, the entertainment industry is charging beyond what the market will bear, however in decades past there was little we could do about it. Then we could get a suitcase of bootleg DVD's from Thailand and Bali... Then there was piracy, now doing end runs around geoblocking. All of this _is_ the market asserting itself against what it feels are unfair conditions (and by market I mean people, because that's what a market is comprised of).

      Steam sales have repeatedly proven that low prices do more to affect piracy than anything else.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    37. Re:Game of Thrones by mjwx · · Score: 1

      They are paying Netflix AND a VPN provider. They are paying extra compared to the USA.

      You dont need a VPN. Netflix recently opened in Oz, so I got an Oz account and just use a simple Firefox extension to watch Netflix in the US as the US has many times more shows than Australia (Oz has around 1500 titles, the US has 7500 titles).

      However even with a VPN (which is what, $5 a month) it's still much cheaper than trying to get the content locally... IF you can get the content locally.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    38. Re:Game of Thrones by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      We don't need to stop watching their programs. We can torrent them.

    39. Re:Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of the supply and demand equation... and a little thing called price elasticity. The problem they face is not that it's sold for $40 in the US and $10 in China, it is that it's sold for $40 in the US and $80 in NZ and Australia. Traditionally this is what's called an arbitrage opportunity and one that has been exploited by distribution companies in these markets. The nature of an arbitrage opportunity requires barriers between markets. The example given above of the barrier of language doesn't work in Australia or NZ because just like the Americans, everyone speaks English. Without this barriers we are left with geographical and/or asymmetric information barriers to segregate these markets naturally - neither of these exist in a internet enabled digital world. Hence companies create an artificial geography barrier (geo-blocking) in order to maintain market separation and protect the pre-internet arbitrage opportunity. Essentially it is the creation of the artificial barrier that people are opposed to. Fundamentally in a world where we understand how much it much cheaper and how much more available something is in another first world English speaking country it isn't perceived to be fair that the company producing the content creates the barrier in order to maintain higher prices.

    40. Re: Game of Thrones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The subscription package required to see Game of Thrones through Sky is hugely expensive, and FTA has probably been cancelled this year as they'll be hoping people subscript to their expensive "Neon" streaming service to see it. It's better to just buy the Blu-ray box set.

    41. Re:Game of Thrones by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Why in the name of fuck would any fucking company want to fuck over its customers? What a sick and malignant industry the media giants have become.

      Because it's the only business model that works. What choice do you have when your option is fight or die? They may be fighting a nasty fight, but really it is all they have. If they embrace the "information wants to be free" reality, then all the fat cat middle men die in the ditch. Contrary to popular myth, piracy doesn't rob artists, it only robs the people who make money off artists. Artists still create art regardless.

    42. Re:Game of Thrones by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Also sky is shit and even charge extra for 1080.. Its a joke. The only reason people pay for sky in NZ is sport, mostly Rugby etc. Also bittorrent works fine in NZ.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
  3. So what is the answer? by Last_Available_Usern · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ban non-business VPN services? Block traffic from these services to residential users? Or better yet, allow VPN traffic to be inspected? There's no way around this problem that will satisfy the media conglomerates that isn't a complete violation of everyone's hind quarters.

    Hey big media! Not everyone is downloading your stupid TV content illegally.

    1. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you do when I move my VPN traffic over to port 443 ?

    2. Re:So what is the answer? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Or better yet, allow VPN traffic to be inspected?

      Oh yeah, fucking brilliant idea .. undermine the security of corporate VPNs so that the assholes who run media companies can further tell us how we are allowed to use technology.

      I have a better idea, feed the execs from media companies and their lawyers to the bears and tell them to piss up a rope.

      These clowns won't be happy until they have veto power over all security and technology. Which, oddly enough, the assholes in the NSA and their peers want the same thing.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:So what is the answer? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      FYI: The article says they aren't using VPN. They are fooling Hulu's geolocating system since it is based on DNS.

    4. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ask the NSA for a forged cert, duh!!

    5. Re:So what is the answer? by Caesar+Tjalbo · · Score: 1

      The only thing that makes sense is to realize that digital content is so fundamentally different from analog that silly notions like "intellectual property" are unattainable. Bytes don't work like original works of art.

      --
      "I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
    6. Re:So what is the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ban non-business VPN services?

      Great idea, do not call me for help if somebody damage "business network" I cannot connect there from my internet connection and company did not wanted to pay for "business connection" just in case ...

      Block traffic from these services to residential users? Or better yet, allow VPN traffic to be inspected?

      Do you really want this? I am working from off shore, from my home. And sometimes I do have access to your private data. Do you want them "inspected" in another country?

      There's no way around this problem that will satisfy the media conglomerates that isn't a complete violation of everyone's hind quarters.
        Hey big media! Not everyone is downloading your stupid TV content illegally.

      Perhaps there is simple solution - rights belong to the creator. Cannot be sold to "non human entities" like media corporations. Problem solved.

    7. Re:So what is the answer? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the only bears we have in New Zealand are in the zoo.
      Too many people, not enough bears.

    8. Re:So what is the answer? by agm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they want to use some form of geoblocking they should not rely on IP address as that's not a sensible nor foolproof way to tell when an internet end-point is physically located.

      VPNs are perfectly legal. Proxy servers are legal. Using a different DNS server is legal. These things cannot be outlawed.

      If services don't want to stream content to people in NZ, why do they continue to do so? It's up to them to not do this. They complaining that they are streaming us content - then stop! It's up to them to stop doing that.

    9. Re:So what is the answer? by jaa101 · · Score: 1

      VPNs are perfectly legal. Proxy servers are legal. Using a different DNS server is legal. These things cannot be outlawed.

      Maybe these things cannot be outlawed in the US, due to your strong constitutional rights to free speech, but they certainly could be in many other countries. Even in the US I believe there are limits on distributing ways to defeat copyright protection mechanisms. I'm not saying this is right, just that it's naïve to think this couldn't be legislated and upheld in many jurisdictions.

    10. Re:So what is the answer? by agm · · Score: 1

      You seem to have inferred that I live in the US, I don't. Data is data, and the routing on the internet is designed to be flexible - the data can be routed through any servers. Legislating against this is to break the way the internet works.

      The issue is that content providers are sending data to people when they ask for it. That makes this he content provideds fault - they should stop sending data to people they are not allowed to.

    11. Re:So what is the answer? by jaa101 · · Score: 1

      Yes, data are data, but I don't see how a law making it illegal for you to obtain content that has been geo-blocked would break the Internet. The law wouldn't have to talk at all about technical details and they could catch people by following the money more easily than by following the bytes. More practically, it would make it hard for service providers in the jurisdiction to offer services to work around geo-blocking, making the case that started this thread open-and-shut.

      As for the content providers grey-marketing their content, that's (currently) a contractual issue between them and their suppliers. New Zealand has historically been very pro-consumer-choice; explicitly allowing region-free DVD players so that people could grey-market the discs. If you're going to try stopping streaming suppliers, don't forget to also have Amazon stop shipping media (including books) internationally.

    12. Re:So what is the answer? by agm · · Score: 1

      Yes, data are data, but I don't see how a law making it illegal for you to obtain content that has been geo-blocked would break the Internet.

      The internet has no geography. There is no way the technology of the internet can tell where a person is physically located. IP addresses sure can't do that.

      The issue in this case is people lying to Netflix about their physical address. That's more of a contractural civil issue, not a criminal one.

  4. Just make geoblocking illegal by MobyDisk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The concept of geoblocking digital data is silly. New Zealand could solve this problem by simply making it illegal.

    1. Re: Just make geoblocking illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kiwis can't stop me. I'll block all of their sheep.

    2. Re:Just make geoblocking illegal by PRMan · · Score: 1

      It sounds like they solve this problem by buying a Netflix subscription and a VPN subscription.

      And a NZ version of Netflix just started, which actually has better content than the US (just less of it). They have things like Frozen and the first 2 Hobbit movies, which aren't available on US Netflix.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Just make geoblocking illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Back in the day we had a Prime Minister who basically said

      "If you buy a DVD from another country, you should be allowed to play it on your DVD player"

      The argument was books, music CDs etc etc all could be used here in NZ, and if you legally bought a DVD you too should be able to play it.
      Part of the argument for this is that the Oscar Awarded Movie "The Piano", an NZ movie was not available in zone 4 (NZ)
      From that POV, DVD players had to become Zone Free by law in NZ.

      So, this should be no different. If I pay for a service overseas , then I am entitled to all of its benefits and to be able to use it anywhere I am.
      This is NOT piracy, I have legally and legitimately bought a product/service.

      SO, a way around this could be.
      IF I buy something overseas and it is geolocked, the local agents MUST swap it out for the same product here in NZ FREE of charge.
      DVDs, Blurays, Printers, Printer ink, etc etc etc.
      Likewise for online services, the MUST supply the same service here in NZ, and if programs are missing then a DVD box set of the missing content can be supplied FREE of charge.

      The way I view it is, if I buy any product at a discounted price, I sure as hell don't have to pay the difference to the store I would normally shop at.
      Therefore if I buy something in another country, I pay for the shipping etc and taxes owed then I don't owe the NZ agents any money if they choose to charge more.

      This is also why I buy CDs, I buy them from around the world cheaper. I also buy CDs/DVDs 2nd hand because they are much cheaper.
      I don't owe Apple any money, I don't owe the music labels any money, I don't owe the movie studios any money, simply because I was able to legally buy and own their product.

    4. Re:Just make geoblocking illegal by agm · · Score: 2

      Geoblocking is fine if they insist on doing this. It's their content, they set the rules. But they shouldn't be silly enough to assume that your IP address somehow betrays your location. It doesn't. It can't. The IP system is not designed to indicate geographical location.

      The reason this "problem" exists is because a company in NZ (as an example) can by exclusive rights to a particular programme (such as GoT). They have paid rights for this exclusive licence. They get a bit pissy if people can acquire this content without using their services. Such a thing should run foul of anti-competitive laws. A better model would be for service providers (such as SkyTV) to charge for access to the individual programmes, not for entire channels. This would work much better in a streaming world than a broadcast one. Having said that, SkyTV in NZ does often have pop-up channels for particular series.

    5. Re:Just make geoblocking illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. They don't "set the rules" just because it's their content.

      Copyright law explicitly lays down what the rights-holder can control, and "where the consumer is when they access the content" is not on the list. The fact that technology allows them to write such provisions in to their own rules - is a perversion of the law, not a part of it.

    6. Re:Just make geoblocking illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it already was. Geoblocking = price fixing. Is the government too scared to enforce it?

  5. Worldwide effects... really? by m2 · · Score: 1

    "violate copyright law"

    I love the absolute terms in which this is posed, as if there was a single, worldwide, copyright law, or even better, a single, worldwide law system. I would love to see common law jurisdictions trying to cite a case in New Zealand as precedent.

    Yes, it would have effect, but nowhere as clear cut and definitive as TFA tries to present them.

    1. Re:Worldwide effects... really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "violate copyright law"

      I love the absolute terms in which this is posed, as if there was a single, worldwide, copyright law, or even better, a single, worldwide law system.

      There is. Read up on the Berne Convention.

      I would love to see common law jurisdictions trying to cite a case in New Zealand as precedent.

      Yes, it would have effect, but nowhere as clear cut and definitive as TFA tries to present them.

      Wow. You really suck at comprehension.

  6. Re:Systemd related? News for nerds yea right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I stick with Ubuntu because they use upstart which is what I prefer

  7. Re:Systemd related? News for nerds yea right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    /. dont need because faggots like you bring it up in every discussion, so fuck off

  8. Pointless. by monkeyxpress · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It doesn't matter whether it is illegal or not. John Key (the prime minister) changed the country's employment laws under urgency when Warner Brothers threatened to move the hobbit offshore due to a union problem. I doubt a loop hole that allowed the NZ public to circumvent the will of the studios is going to survive long. But he has a great smile so we keep voting him in.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/oct/31/warner-bros-new-zealand-hobbit-film

    1. Re:Pointless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      John Key has also sent the kiwi army off to fight in Iraq, against the wishes of the Iraqi government, and just to lick the ass of Uncle Sam.
      What's more, he did so without any debate in parliament, any public discussion of the issues, and this means he's basically acting as a dictator and sending our armed forces into theatre without even a sensible objective. Tantamount to committing an act of war, sending armed soldiers into a fire zone.
      And the kiwi public just suck it up happily, because TEH TERRISTS have got us all cowering in our socks and sandals!
      He's a world class fucking bastard, that one. Dismissive, condescending neo-fascist.

    2. Re:Pointless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "union problem" was widely regarded as being an premeditated attempt by an Australian union to sabotage the New Zealand film industry and The Hobbit part way through production for the benefit of Australia.

    3. Re:Pointless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, to be an angry teenaged communist.

      John Key may be many things but mocking the idea that ISIS are terrorists and a threat while portraying John Key as a "fascist" is just silly.

    4. Re:Pointless. by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Can't he just change the law back after filming finishes? Doesn't seem to be a very robust strategy from the studios.

    5. Re:Pointless. by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Lets not forget the copyright warning letters stuff that was also passed under the "emergency Christchurch" whatever it was. The guy is a crook. But not as stupid as he looks, for example copyright warning letters from ISPs is only for NZ copyright material *and* it has to go to a tribunal to disconnect the person. So none of this automated DCMA letter crap.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
  9. Sky Television NZ wants to lockout any one trying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sky Television NZ wants to lockout any one trying to by pass paying them for it and you have to rent our box + pay for basic package.

  10. in Oz, everybody is still considered a criminal by swschrad · · Score: 2

    the new offense is "using the internet."

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  11. 10 more years by future+assassin · · Score: 2

    You'll see a monster change and the media companies stating to finally flop. I'm 40 and have been cable free for 3 years. My kids and their friends don't even watch tv, just youtube and other free media sites.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  12. Same old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    New Zealand is a technology backwater, held to ransom politicians and their buddy buddy businessmen with their heads up their butts. Got a good idea to make it a better place for the average person or something good for the economy? No no, none of that here, here is some red tape to put on that silly idea. And more taxes please!

    1. Re:Same old by spazzmo · · Score: 1

      Ha. Most new stuff gets tested here first as we are small, so lower roll out costs. Kiwis are always dismayed overseas at the lack of EFT-POS.

      --
      The cheese stands alone...
  13. Stones? What are stones? by Gription · · Score: 2

    All you need to know about "entertainment companies" can be found on the beginning of any retail DVD or Blueray disc. It starts with a big "entertaining" warning about copyright infringement that can not stepped past. (Helps get you into an entertained mood...) The only way to skip this unwarranted interruption is to get a nice pirated copy of the movie.

    Everyone who has enough technical know how to plug a disc into a player knows that pirating movies is illegal and the "entertainment" companies are pounding the message in a very unentertaining manner down the throats of what they know are paying customers. If an industry is this stupid there really isn't much hope for them.

    1. Re:Stones? What are stones? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I agree with you that the message is stupid and unnecessary, but in the hierarchy of annoying things in life it ranks pretty close to the bottom. I can't even recall the last time I saw it, usually I pop the DVD into the player, hit play, then situate the munchies and beverages I want close at hand for the next two hours. :)

      I guess it's hard for me to get worked up about, because I'm not much of a movie or television person. The movies I care enough about to own can be counted on two hands. Most of my television watching is PBS. *shrug*

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Stones? What are stones? by Gription · · Score: 2

      The point is the decisions about how to monetize their media are made by idiots. Instead of saying "How many ways can we offer it so we get revenue?" they instead go and try to apply across the board control in any instance possible to their own detriment.

  14. Re:Sky Television NZ wants to lockout any one tryi by BevanFindlay · · Score: 2

    Yes, this is basically what it comes down to. One company, who have been fairly used to having a stranglehold on paid content in NZ, don't like that, and oh, there might be this scary thing called competition, so rather than adapt, they get out the lawyers. There is no legitimate reason for Sky to have a stranglehold,* so as far as I'm concerned, this just needs to get chucked out of court to make a clear demonstration that it is not ok to abuse your customers and complain when someone undercuts you.

    * I'm not a hardcore capitalist, so I do see that there are places where legislation or government intervention are needed to protect a market in order for it to stay free and fair. Of course, one of those places is protecting against abusive monopolies...

  15. Global by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're no longer in the dark ages. Entertainment has to go global. Region coding/limiting practice needs to end.

  16. Whats it going to take... by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Whats it going to take to get politicians elected (not just in New Zealand but in Australia, the USA, Europe and elsewhere) that are no longer in bed with the big media companies and no longer giving those companies whatever the hell they want?

    1. Re:Whats it going to take... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whats it going to take to get politicians elected (not just in New Zealand but in Australia, the USA, Europe and elsewhere) that are no longer in bed with the big media companies and no longer giving those companies whatever the hell they want?

      money?

  17. Is this all one big legal bluff? by NimbleSquirrel · · Score: 1

    This is going to be an interesting battle, and undoubtedly the Media companies are going to claim that Global Mode is breaking copyright protections. New Zealand Law does have protections for TPMs, but it also contains very specific language about what those TPMs cannot do, specifically:
    "[TPMs must] not include a process, treatment, mechanism, device, or system to the extent that it controls geographic market segmentation by preventing the playback in New Zealand of a non-infringing copy of a work"

    Global Mode is merely providing a tool to get around that geographic market separation. It is no different than a company selling region-free DVD and Blu-Ray players (which are perfectly legal in NZ).

    The Media companies will argue that does not apply because the content will be infringing if it plays here. The simple counter to that is that Global Mode are not providing the content. Furthermore, if clients are using legit services like Netflix or Hulu then the content has been paid for and is technically non-infringing under the law. Clients providing false details to access that content is a Terms of Service violation that is a matter between Netflix/Hulu/et al. and their clients. NZ Media companies simply have no standing in that situation.

    I'd say that the media companies are well aware of this, but have to be seen to be doing something. I'd say that this letter is a bluff, and that the Media companies will not want to create legal precedent when there is not much hope of them actually winning. I think they are just hoping that smaller ISPs rolling over on this will send a message to others. It won't.

    1. Re:Is this all one big legal bluff? by Master+Moose · · Score: 1

      ... The company behind the global mode is Thumbing its nose

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/busines...

      "We assumed they were OK with Global Mode and we continued to spend money innovating the facility,"

      "We did that on our understanding that geo-unblocking to allow people to digitally import content purchased overseas is perfectly legal. If you say it is not, then we are going to need a lot more detail from you to understand why. Simply sending us a threatening letter, as frightening as that may be, does not get us there and is not a fair reason for us to shut down our whole business,"

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
  18. creating a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... such services can violate copyright law ...

    Using a service to buy their product violates the law? It's demonstrates these companies believe they're entitled to a nation-wide monopoly. Australia already decided that region-locking is restriction of trade and thus, illegal. Trying the same story with geo-blocking and expecting a different outcome is a big delusion. It can be argued that enforcing geo-blocking is enforcing a monopoly, which is almost forbidden in Australia.

  19. Voting booth by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

    Do you think it would make a difference in the voting booth? Of course not. Usually in English-speaking countries the voting system is undemocratic (i.e. not propotional) but some kind of geocratic system which keeps The Powers That Be just switching between Rulers and Opposition. When both are firmly in the US governments pocket, the people lose.

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
    1. Re:Voting booth by Troed · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it does make a difference in people who see where this is heading (and fast) actually do their job as voters. The two Swedish politicians who were voted into the European Parliament under the Pirate Party flag made an enormous difference while they were there, and the German Pirate Party MEP who succeeded them has continued to do so being the rapporteur for the parliament's review of the Copyright Directive - something that's happening right now.

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/...

      Add to that the Icelandic Pirate Party who are making a difference in their national parliament, and are currently polling as the largest party in nation.

      http://arstechnica.com/tech-po...

      The Pirate Party movement is represented in over 70 countries all over the world. The "only" thing that needs to happen to counteract the stupidity of Big Media and Authoritarian Government is for people to do their jobs while at the voting booths.

    2. Re:Voting booth by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Strangely enough, the country in question here, New Zealand does have proportional voting. The end result is you end up with a bunch of minority numpties in parliament house who don't know what they're doing creating havoc. No system is perfect, but at least the two party system encourages a screening of candidates for a certain level of political competence.

  20. Thanks for the info by franciscoeduca · · Score: 1

    Thanks, have a nice day :) http://www.educa.net/primeros-...

  21. Don't fucking support those companies.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's so strange to read (not just here) all the entitled bitching that people do when it comes to copyrighted material.

    If those companies do not want your business, then fuck 'em. Tell them to keep their shit and then go spend your money elsewhere. You're not beholden to mega corporate content creators! Most of my moving entertainment comes from guys on youtube. And now, more and more of my audio entertainment comes from guys funding their own content.

    It's out there but you're all too damn lazy or entitled to break from the pack. "I have to watch Game of Thrones because everyone will be talking about it and I don't want to be left out. Plus I need to tweet about it from my MacBook while sitting at a Starbucks."

  22. Seriously?! by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

    It's 2015 ffs. Play globally or gtfo. For reals. This shouldn't even be a discussion

    --
    ...